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Which idea/story came first? The story that the reason Darth Revan returned from the Outer Rim in KOTOR was to prepare it from the invasion of the "True Sith" empire, or Palpatine overthrowing the Republic so he could prepare the universe against the invasion from the Vong?
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Feb 16, 2011 04:51
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Donkey Kunt posted:Which idea/story came first? The story that the reason Darth Revan returned from the Outer Rim in KOTOR was to prepare it from the invasion of the "True Sith" empire, or Palpatine overthrowing the Republic so he could prepare the universe against the invasion from the Vong? I'm thinking KotoR II came out in 2004 and Outbound Flight was 2005? So probably Revan, though to be fair to Zahn, I don't recall anything in Outbound Flight that actually showed the Vong thing was more than a pretext he used to recruit Thrawn.
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Feb 16, 2011 05:04
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There was a mention of it before Outbound Flight (which I haven't read) wasn't there? Hand of Thrawn duology, or maybe Truce at Bakura having a similar idea?
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Feb 16, 2011 05:15
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KaosFactor posted:There was a mention of it before Outbound Flight (which I haven't read) wasn't there? Hand of Thrawn duology, or maybe Truce at Bakura having a similar idea? Yeah, it came up in the Hand of Thrawn duology. Not sure I love the entire plot of the movies being background for a series of books I didn't even think were all that good, but it was mentioned in those two books that at least Thrawn was preparing the galaxy for an invasion from some outer force. I think it might have been mentioned that Palpatine was aware of it, too, but I could be wrong. I know it was mentioned before Outbound Flight in 2005, though, because I knew of it before then.
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Feb 16, 2011 06:13
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I thought it made the entire Rebel Alliance idiocy have a certain farcial aspect. The Empire would have presumably skull-hosed the Vong (if with heavy losses).
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Feb 16, 2011 06:16
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When was it ever mentioned that Palpatine wanted to take control of the galaxy to face the Vong? As far as I know Palps, while aware of the Vong's existance, had no concept of the threat they really were. It was Thrawn, after Palp died, that did his poo poo with the goal of preparing for the Vong.
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Feb 16, 2011 06:16
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thrawn527 posted:Yeah, it came up in the Hand of Thrawn duology. Not sure I love the entire plot of the movies being background for a series of books I didn't even think were all that good, but it was mentioned in those two books that at least Thrawn was preparing the galaxy for an invasion from some outer force. I think it might have been mentioned that Palpatine was aware of it, too, but I could be wrong. I don't think the idea in the HoT duology was of Thrawn preparing for a galactic invasion, just that there were tons of insanely dangerous things in the Unknown Regions and Thrawn wanted to be prepared in case everything went to poo poo. quote:"There are a hundred different threats out there that would freeze your blood if you knew about them. The ruling families can't stop them; neither can any other power in the region. If our people are to be protected, it's up to us."
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Feb 16, 2011 06:17
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Thrawn was preparing the galaxy for the threat of bug orgies But I thought it was blatantly obvious in Outbound Flight that it was the Vong they were talking about. It might have even been wookiepedia which expounded on it, Palps not wanting a modern warship filled with Jedi to stumble across some Vong staging point/beach head and get captured and studied. quote:The Empire would have presumably skull-hosed the Vong (if with heavy losses). Yes they would have but then NJO fans would just counter with the "but the Vong couldn't be countered through traditional means!!!!" argument which I found to be the most  aspect of that god-awful series.
WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Feb 16, 2011 |
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Feb 16, 2011 07:14
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He was going to kill the Solo kids for their own good.
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Feb 16, 2011 07:19
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Casimir Radon posted:He was going to kill the Solo kids for their own good. "Ah Han, a pleasure that you can join us" "Yeah, charmed" "I've been studying your Falcon, your piece of art if you may. Do you want to know what I discovered?" "Yeah sure lay it on me I'm all ears" "...your daughter is going to grow up and join a giant bug-orgy" "Oh god she's with Leia on Coruscant right now here are the keys to my apartment!"
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Feb 16, 2011 07:22
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WhyteRyce posted:Yes they would have but then NJO fans would just counter with the "but the Vong couldn't be countered through traditional means!!!!" argument which I found to be the most
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Feb 16, 2011 07:36
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Duckula posted:This would be quite funny. I'm sure we could cobble it together if it doesn't already exist. It sort of does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhdk0YOrVCg
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Feb 16, 2011 07:45
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NGL posted:There's essentially 2 hypotheses for why she didn't appear in Ep2: This I could believe, as Lucas probably learned his lesson with trying to work with cokeheads after Carrie Fisher spent the next 20 years after A New Hope completely stoned out of her mind.
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Feb 16, 2011 07:51
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RagnarokAngel posted:http://superpunch.blogspot.com/2011...t=Google+Reader What...the...hell... EDIT: So reading more, both Revan and Bane were going to appear, but Lucas forced the scene to be cut because he didn't want them to be Force ghosts or something. Thanks again Lucas! Also, people who get upset about the whole "Palpatine took over the galaxy to defend it from the Yuuzhan Vong" thing I think make too big a deal out of it. For one, Palpatine only learns about the Vong long after he's already set his plan in motion (I mean, by Outbound Flight he's already manipulated his way to become Chancellor, got Maul and then Dooku as his apprentice, and begun preparing the clone army and separatist crisis). Second, there's nothing that looks inside Palpatine's head and definitively states that he was soley motivated by that overriding factor. It's just one of many justifications he made to various people to explain why he had to become a kindly old benevolent ruler, when really power for its own sake was his only aim. Actually even before Outbound Flight I think the whole Palpatine vs. Vong thing came from some sourcebook which briefly mentioned the threat of extra-galactic invasion was one of the justifications the Empire had to maintain a massive military after the Clone Wars, and it was depicted as being more a blatantly bald-faced excuse to justify a massive military than it was a legitimate excuse. I do think however that Outbound Flight heavily implies that Thrawn and the Chiss manipulated his whole 'exile' just so he could join the Empire to take command of its forces to fight the Vong invasion, which I find interesting seeing as Zahn has always very publicly disliked the NJO. Chairman Capone fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Feb 16, 2011 |
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Feb 16, 2011 08:05
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Flagrant Abuse posted:I love the NJO and I agree that the Empire would've mobilized at the first threat and completely exterminated them before they got anywhere near Coruscant. What the Empire would have done is build a supercolossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing Battle Machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done. - Han Solo I'm not trying to be an NJO apologist or anything, but I really did love this part.
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Feb 16, 2011 08:06
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Chairman Capone posted:I do think however that Outbound Flight heavily implies that Thrawn and the Chiss manipulated his whole 'exile' just so he could join the Empire to take command of its forces to fight the Vong invasion, which I find interesting seeing as Zahn has always very publicly disliked the NJO. That's simply Zahn saying "Ok, I hate it, but its there. Now here's how you asshats should have handled it."
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Feb 16, 2011 08:24
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DrWhom posted:What the Empire would have done is build a supercolossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing Battle Machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done. - Han Solo Which EU author wrote that? It sounds like a Take That to KJA.
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Feb 16, 2011 09:24
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Slantedfloors posted:I don't think the idea in the HoT duology was of Thrawn preparing for a galactic invasion, just that there were tons of insanely dangerous things in the Unknown Regions and Thrawn wanted to be prepared in case everything went to poo poo. As I remember Thrawn is okay with Outbound Flight exiting the galaxy from a different place, which to me suggested that he knew of something specific which was lurking beyond Chiss space. Or he's just a giant rear end in a top hat who doesn't mind everyone else getting their poo poo hosed as long as it doesn't affect his turf.
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Feb 16, 2011 09:29
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DrWhom posted:What the Empire would have done is build a supercolossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing Battle Machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done. - Han Solo  Did he say this before or after his child got killed?
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Feb 16, 2011 10:32
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Nessus posted:Make Death Star II II and it has no flaws and can gently caress up Vong erry day He said this after in one of the Force Heretic books.
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Feb 16, 2011 15:47
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Nessus posted:Make Death Star II II and it has no flaws and can gently caress up Vong erry day In all fairness the Vong's government and military capacity early in the war was based on gigantic nigh-immovable Asteroid-ships, so even an Endor-type battle where the hypothethical DS2-2 cranked out a few shots at the Worldships before getting blown up would probably cripple them.
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Feb 16, 2011 15:51
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Nessus posted:Make Death Star II II and it has no flaws and can gently caress up Vong erry day The ability to be sucked into a black hole because it's terribly slow and unmaneuverable is probably a flaw.
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Feb 16, 2011 18:50
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Slantedfloors posted:In all fairness the Vong's government and military capacity early in the war was based on gigantic nigh-immovable Asteroid-ships, so even an Endor-type battle where the hypothethical DS2-2 cranked out a few shots at the Worldships before getting blown up would probably cripple them. I accept this because being weird space Brits this kind of bad luck has to come with the territory with being the Empire.
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Feb 16, 2011 18:58
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:When was it ever mentioned that Palpatine wanted to take control of the galaxy to face the Vong? As far as I know Palps, while aware of the Vong's existance, had no concept of the threat they really were. It was Thrawn, after Palp died, that did his poo poo with the goal of preparing for the Vong. Wait wait wait. They actually concocted some altruistic motive for all of Palpatine's poo poo?
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Feb 16, 2011 19:04
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Joe Don Baker posted:Wait wait wait. They actually concocted some altruistic motive for all of Palpatine's poo poo? Admittedly it's EU so it's not really canon like the movies, but does it make you that angry that a "bad guy" might have actually had a good goal despite the actions he took to acquire it? Hell that's like Vader with his good intentions being the source of his fall...if the PT were written better.
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Feb 16, 2011 19:06
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Fox of Stone posted:Admittedly it's EU so it's not really canon like the movies, but does it make you that angry that a "bad guy" might have actually had a good goal despite the actions he took to acquire it? Hell that's like Vader with his good intentions being the source of his fall...if the PT were written better. I'm not angry at all. It's dumb to get angry at EU stuff. I'm just surprised. Palpatine (at least in the movies) was evil just for the sake of being evil. Even in the Journal of the Whills bullshit in the ANH novel, it pretty much said Palpatine was an evil motherfucker just because he is. At least in ESB they started offering ideas as to what made Vader tick.
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Feb 16, 2011 19:25
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Joe Don Baker posted:I'm not angry at all. It's dumb to get angry at EU stuff. I'm just surprised. Palpatine (at least in the movies) was evil just for the sake of being evil. Even in the Journal of the Whills bullshit in the ANH novel, it pretty much said Palpatine was an evil motherfucker just because he is. But dramatically speaking every villain believes he is good from their own perspective, including Ol'Palps. Bring order and security to the Galaxy is a noble and righteous goal.
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Feb 16, 2011 19:31
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Fox of Stone posted:Admittedly it's EU so it's not really canon like the movies, but does it make you that angry that a "bad guy" might have actually had a good goal despite the actions he took to acquire it? Hell that's like Vader with his good intentions being the source of his fall...if the PT were written better. On general principle, it wouldn't make me angry. Such a motive would usually add depth to the character if done well. For Palpatine, the motive is tacked on long after the fact and doesn't mesh with anything we've seen of him. He was the great dictator and a corrupter of good men. His driving motive has always been power, pure and simple. Making him suddenly sympathetic doesn't fit with the tone of the original trilogy one bit. TheBigBad posted:But dramatically speaking every villain believes he is good from their own perspective, including Ol'Palps. Bring order and security to the Galaxy is a noble and righteous goal. Good from Palpatine's perspective is whatever's good for Palpatine. Order and security are tools of control, not ends unto themselves. Astribulus fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Feb 16, 2011 |
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Feb 16, 2011 19:32
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TheBigBad posted:But dramatically speaking every villain believes he is good from their own perspective, including Ol'Palps. Bring order and security to the Galaxy is a noble and righteous goal. That was the line of bullshit he fed the Senate, but as Astribulus said, he was just a power hungry dude. Anyway the only thing worse than the EU is arguing about it.
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Feb 16, 2011 19:37
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I don't think the idea of Palpatine creating the Empire to deal with the Vong was intended to make him sympathetic. It was to show the horrifically selfish loving drive he had, being willing to kill trillions of people and build a brutal galaxy-spanning Empire, just to ensure that in 60 years some BDSM-Aztecs wouldn't be able to gently caress with his plans to live forever.
Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 16, 2011 |
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Feb 16, 2011 19:39
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Joe Don Baker posted:That was the line of bullshit he fed the Senate, but as Astribulus said, he was just a power hungry dude. Anyway the only thing worse than the EU is arguing about it. Someone has been goofing around at Toshi Station with his Liber... Rebel friends too much.
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Feb 16, 2011 20:02
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TheBigBad posted:But dramatically speaking every villain believes he is good from their own perspective, including Ol'Palps. Bring order and security to the Galaxy is a noble and righteous goal. And the quest to find a planet of pot/look exactly like a young David Bowie too.
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Feb 16, 2011 21:21
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Mooktastical posted:Which EU author wrote that? It sounds like a Take That to KJA. It was Walter Jon Williams, the book being Destiny's Way. Apparently it's the only Star Wars novel he's ever written, I guess most of their regulars were feeling pretty burnt out during the marathon that was the NJO. Bonus picture: 
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Feb 16, 2011 23:40
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Slantedfloors posted:I don't think the idea of Palpatine creating the Empire to deal with the Vong was intended to make him sympathetic. It was to show the horrifically selfish loving drive he had, being willing to kill trillions of people and build a brutal galaxy-spanning Empire, just to ensure that in 60 years some BDSM-Aztecs wouldn't be able to gently caress with his plans to live forever.
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Feb 17, 2011 00:56
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DrWhom posted:It was Walter Jon Williams, the book being Destiny's Way. Apparently it's the only Star Wars novel he's ever written, I guess most of their regulars were feeling pretty burnt out during the marathon that was the NJO. Bonus picture:
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Feb 17, 2011 01:23
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Palpatine publically justified the massive increase in military expansion after the Clone Wars were over by claiming that they were to be used to combat any potential extra-galactic threat. However, I don't think that he actually believed any such threat existed, it was obviously just a lie to allow him to increase his evil stranglehold over the galaxy. Like I said, he knew about the Vong's existence but did not, at all, know the true capacity of their threat. I don't think he actually considered them at all with any of his plans. And as previously stated, even if he did know of the Vong threat his plans to protect his empire were all based off his own selfish evil to stay in charge, not to actually protect the galaxy. Thrawn on the other hand, without a doubt, had the Vong threat in mind for his own plans. Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Feb 17, 2011 |
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Feb 17, 2011 01:29
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Slantedfloors posted:"There are a hundred different threats out there that would freeze your blood if you knew about them. The ruling families can't stop them; neither can any other power in the region. If our people are to be protected, it's up to us." Yeah, as someone who read that back in the day, just from the way it was phrased and the way the EU had treated things a dozen years ago (pre-NJO), it sounded like that was just more of the same brushfire threats the Bantam books always had. Ssi-Ruuk, Yevetha, etc.
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Feb 17, 2011 02:56
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Angry Midwesterner posted:Yeah, as someone who read that back in the day, just from the way it was phrased and the way the EU had treated things a dozen years ago (pre-NJO), it sounded like that was just more of the same brushfire threats the Bantam books always had. Ssi-Ruuk, Yevetha, etc. NJO did a lot of good to get out of the "Minor alien threat/doomsday weapon of the week" routine. But unforunatly it just inspired the "BIGGER/MORE INTENSE" routine of the year with each sucessive series.
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Feb 17, 2011 03:00
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Tobaccrow posted:It sort of does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhdk0YOrVCg This is kind of annoying for me. It's very well done, it's just that I think I may have given TPM an easy ride over things like midichlorians, which I reasoned might be a result of Force-sensitivity rather than the cause, which that seems to contradict. I've also not watched Revenge of the Sith since it was in the cinema, and that brought back some of the big problems with it. I need to get another The Clone Wars box.
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Feb 17, 2011 03:34
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:NJO did a lot of good to get out of the "Minor alien threat/doomsday weapon of the week" routine. But unforunatly it just inspired the "BIGGER/MORE INTENSE" routine of the year with each sucessive series. NJO removed the "Minor alien threat/doomsday weapon of the week" routine and replaced it with a "Major Vong threat/Vong doomsday weapon of the week" routine.
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Feb 17, 2011 03:49
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