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Today's walk was out first big challenge, since it got over 50 today and there were lots of people walking around and hanging out outside. Spirit is now behaving pretty well towards people - she understands that when she sees someone walking our way that she's to sit where I stop. I definitely need to work on her reaction to being close to dogs though, she still pulls quite a bit when a dog is close to her. I think I'll start keeping "other dogs only" treats in my pocket to reward her for calm behavior around other dogs. But I did run into a situation today that I wasn't sure how to handle, and probably botched it. My downstairs neighbors have douchey dogs who bark and lunge at everything and everyone (I have never seen them walk their dogs, and they seem to think that tying them outside on a stake is just as good because hey, they're still outside right!) and unfortunately I have to walk right by them to get inside. Normally if I see they're out there I just walk Spirit around the block another time until the dogs are in, but today I was tired and she was tired so I decided to try walking past them. She did okay walking down the sidewalk towards them - she'd pull, I'd stop her and she'd sit at my side and then we'd continue when she was calm - but when we got right up close their dog started barking and lunging. Spirit was pulling too, but ignoring me because their dog was getting her super worked up and she wouldn't respond. I couldn't stand there and wait because I'm worried about their dog breaking its chain or stake so I dragged her in. What's the best way to handle walking my dog past another jerk dog? Is dragging okay in this case just to get her away, or is there something else I can do to make sure that Spirit focuses on ME when another dog is going wild instead of getting all worked up by it?
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Feb 17, 2011 00:45
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I have to say, this thread has really, really inspired me to work more with my Border Collie mix, Deuce.  He's a really wonderful dog, and I love him to pieces. We got him from a shelter eight years ago, and though he was clearly abused and very sick when we got him, he's been just the most loving fucker in the world.  Now, Deuce is...brilliantly smart. I've taught him everything he knows, though what he knows is fairly simple. Sit, stay, wait, head down (on your lap, or whatever), shake, high five, other hand (for shake, or high five,) spin, other way (for spin,) drop it, dance, down...probably some others, as well, it's all kind of slipping my mind at the moment. The thing is, I want to start teaching him some more...complicated tricks, and I have no idea how to get going on it. Things like roll over, which I realize is not too complicated, but he has issues with it, and "bang, you're dead!" That sort of thing. In addition to...having no idea how to get going on that, I also have issue of living an hour away from my parents house, where Deucer lives. I usually get back every 2-3 weeks for a weekend or more, and Deuce still acts like I am 'his human,' but will this make the training any more difficult, do you think? 
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Feb 17, 2011 00:52
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That thing I sent posted:But I did run into a situation today that I wasn't sure how to handle, and probably botched it. Some ways to keep your dog's attention in stressful situations:
It sounds like things are progressing nicely. Unfortunately it's a slow process, but you're doing really well. Angela Manaconda posted:Now, Deuce is...brilliantly smart. I've taught him everything he knows, though what he knows is fairly simple. Sit, stay, wait, head down (on your lap, or whatever), shake, high five, other hand (for shake, or high five,) spin, other way (for spin,) drop it, dance, down...probably some others, as well, it's all kind of slipping my mind at the moment. The thing is, I want to start teaching him some more...complicated tricks, and I have no idea how to get going on it. Things like roll over, which I realize is not too complicated, but he has issues with it, and "bang, you're dead!" That sort of thing. Yay! I love Border Collies! They're viciously smart. I also love trick training! I maintain that the best thing I ever taught my dog was how to pivot. That, and other rear-end awareness tricks have really opened up some fun doors for me (and my dog, presumably). I started with teaching my dog how to back up, then I taught pivot, and from there I taught my dog to walk up the stairs in reverse, to crawl in reverse, pretend to pee on things by lifting her back leg (she's a girl, she squats... very helpful), to balance on two legs on one side (lift both right legs up), and I'm working on a handstand. She'll circle around me backwards. She'll run between my legs backwards. All from basic rear-end awareness exercises. Clicker training is voodoo mindcontrol magic as far as trick training is concerned (as well as just about everything else). You can easily get started on it over a weekend. Check out this video to get yourself started on pivot if you're interested. My favourite tricks my dog does are limp, jump into my arms, stand up on her back legs, and bow. I also have a really nice pivot from front to heel position that I use constantly. This is a good how-to for teaching roll over. Bang/play dead is pretty easy to extrapolate on from there. I doubt you'll have much of an issue only seeing him every few weeks. You might experience some backslide, but I think your guy is probably smart enough to remember the bulk of it. My girl remembers poo poo that we haven't practiced for months. a life less fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Feb 17, 2011 |
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Feb 17, 2011 01:19
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a life less posted:A lot of really useful stuff Thanks! This is a bunch of great info. I'm super excited now! And I would definitely love to teach him some of the tricks you mentioned. Actually, probably all of them. I am sure he'll be willing to learn them, too! I'll likely update as we go along, as I'm probably going to be taking videos/pictures. It seems a lot of people think I won't be able to teach Deucer a thing, because of his age.  Which is sort of hilarious, as he's only eight and a bit, and...is constantly learning things. I have never met a smarter dog.
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Feb 17, 2011 05:00
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I just found out from a friend that used to be a behavioral therapist that R+ condition for autistic kids is almost exactly the same as for dogs. Except she wasn't allowed/able to use luring with the kids she worked with. We have decided to start Monty on a program, charting the results the same as she used to do for her kids. Should be a fun experiment. fake edit: Sadly, my early successes with tricks and simple commands have slowed down. We have been working on some of his bad habits, mainly leave it and trying to keep him off of the counter. I'm moving soon to a place with lots of uncovered garbages, so I have some serious work to do. Demon_Corsair fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Feb 17, 2011 |
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Feb 17, 2011 19:16
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Demon_Corsair posted:I just found out from a friend that used to be a behavioral therapist that R+ condition for autistic kids is almost exactly the same as for dogs. Slightly relevant to the thread, my new Bailey DVD arrived yesterday! I can't wait to watch it! I loved Fundamentals of Animal Training (the DVD I got earlier) so I'm really looking forward to this one.
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Feb 19, 2011 08:19
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I'm reading How to Teach a New Dog Old Tricks by Ian Dunbar; great book, even though it's 30 years old and some of the terminology has evolved. Dunbar makes a pretty strong case as to why puppies/young dogs must bite, if not their littermates, then their owners - or they never develop bite inhibition. I hadn't thought about it this way, I was thinking any kind of people-biting had to be trained out ASAP.quote:a) Inhibiting Incidence Before Force: A common mistake is to punish the pup in an attempt to get it to stop biting altogether. At the best, the puppy no longer mouths those family members who can effectively punish the dog, but instead, the pup directs its mouthing sprees towards those family members who cannot control the dog, e.g., children. To worsen matters, parents are often completely unaware of the child's plight, because the pup does not mouth them. At the worst, the puppy no longer mouths people at all. Hence, its education about the force of its bites stops right there. All is fine until someone accidentally treads on the dog's tail, whereupon the dog bites, and in the absence of bite-inhibition, the bite punctures the skin.
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Feb 22, 2011 00:14
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I don't have time to read this whole thread so I apologize if this has already been answered: I didn't exactly understand your explanation of the clicker, because in one spot you said the clicker will always signal a treat for the rest of the dog's life, but then in another spot you said you want to quickly reduce the frequency of when you actually give a treat. Do you mean that you always click for every single time the dog does what you want, but then randomly give a treat. So maybe you only give a treat 10% of the time you click, and that's enough that the dog still wants to get you to make a click? Or are you saying that you don't click every time it does something good and that every time you do click you give the dog a treat?
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Feb 22, 2011 14:20
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systran posted:I don't have time to read this whole thread so I apologize if this has already been answered: Every click is followed by a treat/reward (even if you mis-click) so as to maintain the connection between click and good stuff happening. You fade out or randomize the click and treat at the same time.
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Feb 22, 2011 14:25
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systran posted:Do you mean that you always click for every single time the dog does what you want, but then randomly give a treat. So maybe you only give a treat 10% of the time you click, and that's enough that the dog still wants to get you to make a click? Or are you saying that you don't click every time it does something good and that every time you do click you give the dog a treat? ^ It's the latter. The clicker is used during training new behaviours or polishing already known behaviours. It essentially expedites the learning process. During this process every click is followed by a treat. Once the dog knows the behaviour you can start fading the click and treat out. At that point the dog knows "sit" means sit and "speak" means speak. You can choose to still reward these behaviours if you choose (sporadically to keep training rewarding), but the click isn't necessary since the dog already knows what you're asking. The click will always be followed by a treat, but you'll not have to use the click once the behaviour is known. So my dog will sit when I ask her to sit, and she'll speak when I ask her to speak. Sometimes I'll reward her (a variable rate of reinforcement will encourage retention of the behaviour) but rewards can be anything from steak to attention to a toy. When I'm trying to teach her to do a handstand (my current project) I'm clicking constantly for each successive approximation of my goal behaviour. Odds are I will always keep the rate of reinforcement high for a handstand because it's challenging and unconventional. But I'll fade the reward for a sit/stand/stay/etc quickly because that's an everyday command that my dog can't expect to be rewarded for constantly. If you don't fade the reward in these latter cases you can wind up with a dog who will only comply if it knows you have a treat on you. Sorry if it wasn't clear. I hope that helps a bit. a life less fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Feb 22, 2011 |
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Feb 22, 2011 15:10
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My dog flips her poo poo every time she sees another dog, no matter the distance. As soon at it's spotted, she whines, groans, pulls, backs up, pulls, turns in circles. Since nobody in my city seems to think a leash is necessary, it's really hard to prevent them from running up to her, which then makes her even more stimulated since we're keeping her from lunging and playing and the other dog is running and sniffing. She doesn't listen at all if she sees another dog so we can't even try to get a sit out of her. Any advice? I'm far too polite to get mean at other people but wtf is with them casually sauntering after their dog when my dog is freaking out and I'm clearly trying to keep their dog away? Also, would it just be smarter to take her to a dog beach and let her go crazy with other dogs? Would that help work out some of the energy or excitement, or exacerbate it? I feel by denying her other dogs, she gets even more excited when she sees one. We know now she isn't dog aggressive, but she plays like a dumb unsocialized idiot and we've definitely broken up fights between her and other dogs we've brought over for playtime, usually because she annoys them and they snap at her.
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Feb 22, 2011 22:31
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Gonktastic posted:I'm far too polite to get mean at other people but wtf is with them casually sauntering after their dog when my dog is freaking out and I'm clearly trying to keep their dog away? People are stupid. I have had several people ask me if my dog is friendly when she is barking and growling at them and I am hunched over her, clearly trying to get her to settle down. I know we talked about this before, but I forget, have you considered finding a trainer to help you out? Sometimes a dog that has bad doggie manners can benefit from interactions with a well-mannered dog who won't take their poo poo and yet knows how to deal with bad manners without fighting. You would likely not find these types of dogs at the beach and letting your dog loose with other potentially ill mannered dogs would at best teach her poorer manners and at worst lead to a traumatizing event. A trainer would be able to tell you for sure if your dog needs more socialization or if you need to approach this from a different direction. A trainer might also be able to supply a well-mannered dog for practice, I would think, though I'm not certain how common that is. My only other advice is what I have done in the past: if no distance is good enough, use a barrier between your dog and the other dog. Get your dog to sit in that situation, then slowly move out, ducking back behind the barrier as often as necessary. You said your dog isn't aggressive, so it's not really a matter of eliminating her fear, but of getting her to realize you want a different behavior. Use the best treats possible. Also just seeing the other dog can be a reward. Teach your dog that she can't have things until you say it's okay, from food to playtime.
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Feb 23, 2011 00:51
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Gonktastic posted:My dog flips her poo poo every time she sees another dog, no matter the distance. As soon at it's spotted, she whines, groans, pulls, backs up, pulls, turns in circles. Will she eat when another dog is in sight? If so, it doesn't matter if you can get her attention just start popping really amazing treats into her mouth. You don't need the dog to offer behaviour (like a sit, or attention) in classical conditioning. Unfortunately people are idiots. I'm like you and pretty mild-mannered, so I know it takes some guts to stand up for you and your dog, but you really don't have a choice. You need to set your dog up for success to the best of your ability, so if you have to tell some rear end in a top hat to please leash his dog and let you walk the other way, so be it. I can't remember what else has been suggested to you -- I'm sorry if this is a repeat. First, you might want to look into purchasing Scaredy Dog by Ali Browne or Fight by Jean Donaldson. The first is more geared towards fearful dogs, but it touches on reactivity. Plus, just about any reactivity is based in insecurity and fear. Second, how do you walk her? Do you use a head halter or a no-pull harness? If not, give one of them a try. I've seen some people have good success using a head halter for reactivity. I've also seen people not have much success with them, but found a front clip harness very useful. I don't think letting her run wild at the beach is a good idea. I think you should focus on keeping her calm and trying to maintain her focus on you while other dogs are present. Run her ragged with a bike, a ball or whatever and help get some of that pent up energy out of her system, but leave dogs out of the equation. a life less fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Feb 23, 2011 |
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Feb 23, 2011 04:05
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Thanks guys, I appreciate all the advice. A trainer is out of our budget at the moment, but it is definitely something I've had in mind. The other dogs our friends have are much, much worse behaved than she is, and it just doesn't help other than working out energy and excitement. She's really quite well behaved for a rescue that we've only had for several weeks, she just REALLLLLLLLLLY wants to play with anything that moves. Our vet recommended a prong collar so we've been using that thus far, but I've found she isn't very sensitive and will ignore it a lot. After watching a whole bunch more kikopup and Dr. Yin, I'm phasing out the prong and using the front-clip harness with effusive happiness and click-treat every time the leash is slack and when she looks at me. However, my boyfriend does still use the prong when riding her on the bike since she will drag him off the bike if he doesn't. Kikopup did mention that having pain around her neck will increase excitement and reactivity so I'll find out if the halter makes a difference. What would you guys say is the right way to behave if another dog approaches or is nearby? I'm afraid I've confused her due to doing different things each time. Should I turn around and walk away from it? Keep walking like it doesn't exist? Make her sit and wait for it to pass? She won't eat at all if another dog is nearby. I know she can do this though- if she doesn't SEE the other dog, she doesn't react. Some douche earlier let his doberman run right up to her from behind multiple times, where it was sniffing her tail and butt, and she walked great until she turned around and saw it there, despite knowing it was about from the sniffing and collar sounds. We have very effectively been using NILIF training. Really, she's amazing and learns behaviors, boundaries and rules great. I should probably talk about how awesome she is more often. She hasn't jumped on a visitor since her third day here, has learned to target, and recalls even if she's charging the fence at a cat. Plus her fur is 1000x softer and she gives big wet kisses every time she can sneak them in. Gonktastic fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Feb 23, 2011 |
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Feb 23, 2011 04:36
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Gonktastic posted:What would you guys say is the right way to behave if another dog approaches or is nearby? I'm afraid I've confused her due to doing different things each time. Should I turn around and walk away from it? Keep walking like it doesn't exist? Make her sit and wait for it to pass? She won't eat at all if another dog is nearby. I know she can do this though- if she doesn't SEE the other dog, she doesn't react. Some douche earlier let his doberman run right up to her from behind multiple times, where it was sniffing her tail and butt, and she walked great until she turned around and saw it there, despite knowing it was about from the sniffing and collar sounds. I'm glad you're trying to phase out the prong collar, causing pain will only increase anxiety in your dog and may cause her behavior to go from just excitable to actually fearful. I try not to even pull on my dog's harness because I don't want to cause her more anxiety. If the front clip doesn't do it, I can attest to head halters working very well. Just keep trying things until you figure out what works. I won't claim to know right/best behavior for your dog when another approaches, so someone else might have a better answer. I do know that an option my trainer likes (esp. for reactive dogs) is teaching your dog Leave It as a body language cue that says the dog can't have anything until you say okay. So if your dog tries to go play, you would body block until the dog backs off and waits for your permission. I can explain it in more detail, but the end result is that your dog, when confronted with something interesting, will look to you for direction (you won't have to actually body block at this point) and not decide to run off after whatever it is. It's something the trainer demo'd for us and we've been practicing it, though my dog is a long, long way from being able to do it with other dogs. She does look to me for a lot of little things now though. Edit: Saw your edit, she sounds awesome. 
Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Feb 23, 2011 |
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Feb 23, 2011 04:50
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Gonktastic posted:Our vet recommended a prong collar so we've been using that thus far, but I've found she isn't very sensitive and will ignore it a lot. After watching a whole bunch more kikopup and Dr. Yin, I'm phasing out the prong and using the front-clip harness with effusive happiness and click-treat every time the leash is slack and when she looks at me. However, my boyfriend does still use the prong when riding her on the bike since she will drag him off the bike if he doesn't. Kikopup did mention that having pain around her neck will increase excitement and reactivity so I'll find out if the halter makes a difference. This is why vets are not dog trainers. A prong collar on a reactive dog is A Very Bad Idea. Riding on a bike with a dog on a prong collar is A Very Truly Terrible Idea. When I bike with my dog I put her in a cheapo standard harness (back clip) just in case she pulls or I fall or something since it's the least likely tool to cause injury. Maybe try biking with a front clip harness -- it should reduce her ability to pull as well as reduce the chance of her getting hurt. I hate when people do this, but I'm going to do this. Would YOU be able to calm down if someone was applying pressure to a prong collar on YOU? You don't even have to jerk it (you're not jerking it, right???) to elevate her stress level. As Kiri Koli said, the best option is to have absolutely zero tension on the leash when around other dogs (especially when paused for a greeting). Prong collars are used in sports like Schutzhund to build drive -- they use them to frustrate and excite the dog. They're not good calming tools for the bulk of the population. When other dogs are nearby, I would turn around and/or cross the street. You can teach your dog a directional cue that indicates that you're about to turn around, and you can make it a super happy experience for the dog. You pretty much want to put as much distance between her and other dogs as possible considering her reactivity. Don't keep walking like it doesn't exist at this point. Eventually you should be able to pass another dog while asking her to focus on you, but that's a ways off. Sitting is better/easier than walking past, but again it kind of sounds like it's beyond your ability right now. Just stick to hardcore counter conditioning and avoid dog confrontations if possible. It sounds like the sight of other dogs is her reactivity trigger, so you want to turn that trigger into the predictor of good things. To countercondition correctly you kind of have to make sure that she does notice the other dog, because otherwise she doesn't associate the food with the trigger. You should be able to lessen intensity of the reaction with enough distance. Also if you're having trouble managing her you can try increasing your speed and powering past distractions. It doesn't always work, but sometimes if you're moving and erratic you're more interesting to focus on than the trigger(s). It sounds like you're doing a really good job with what you have. Ideally you should get in touch with a trainer/behaviourist when the funds allow it. Odds are you don't live anywhere near me, but if you did I'd try to give you some pointers in person.
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Feb 23, 2011 05:23
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Major update at almost 2 months into work with the behaviorist. Things were a little rocky this month just because it seemed like everything that could go wrong did and me stressing out made my sensitive beast stress out which would stress me out more and it just got ugly. When I realized that him reverting back to pacing and whining non-stop was my fault and that getting mad about it was a stupid thing to do we got a lot better. He's stopped pacing and peeing indoors and generally being a wreck and I've gotten better at realizing when my patience is wearing thin and just sticking him in his crate with a tasty chew and taking a breather. So much of dog training and behavior is training yourself, its amazing. On the travel anxiety front Major is doing great. I didn't get as much practice in as I want because I didn't want to practice on days where he was already visibly stressed out, but we are now up to 20 minutes with the car on not moving or 5 minutes pulling down the driveway then back. I even had to pull back out once to straighten the car and not a peep from the dog. It gets sort of boring just hanging out in the car for 20 minutes but the magic time for dogs seems to be a half an hour so I'm hoping once we get up to that we can focus more on moving. My goal, and I need to talk to the doctor about whether this is realistic or not, is to be able to go to a reactive dog class (at least 1.5 hours away) by the end of the year. Whenever we used to drive places we would end up someplace with dogs and I think he has associated that stress and anxiety with them and I think some controlled interactions would really help him. I've started reading (while sitting in the car) When Pigs Fly by Jane Killion who does agility and obedience with bull terriers and I'm really loving it. It focuses a lot on shaping and Premack work and is focused on dogs that have their own ideas about what they want to do in life. The first exercises are name recognition/focus (I've totally poisoned Major's name so "Nubs" is his special training nickname) and 100 things to do with a box. It will be good for me to work on shaping and Major is pretty terrible at learning with lures because his thought process is just "I follow the cookie/target->I get the cookie" without any thought about what his body is actually doing. Its a fun read too! I've also watched some Dr. Yin videos and have been working on my handling skills and I can really see a difference in Major's focus when I changed my posture and where I kept my hands. Sorry about the novel, but I'm really glad I have people to share progress with. It keeps me motivated and most people I know think I'm crazy for putting so much energy into a "broken" dog whose problem isn't even hurting anyone.
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Feb 25, 2011 17:19
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I've been wanting to write up a post about improving off-leash recall for a while, so I think I'll do just that. My dog spends the majority of her walks off-leash. I'm lucky enough to live in a very dog-friendly area of the city with plenty of paths through the woods and ravines plus quite a few off-leash parks. I leash her until the end of the street and then I let her loose. Cohen's recall is pretty good, but it's not perfect so I've been working to improve it. I've stumbled onto two different methods with which I'm having quite a bit of success. So I thought I'd post about them. The Touch Game Video Link - touch Touch was the first thing I ever taught my puppy -- before sit, down, or anything else. When I say "touch" she'll jam her nose into the palm of my hand. It's very simple to teach, so most dogs should be able to pick it up relatively quickly. I worked on this quite a bit, increasing distance and rewarding for extra enthusiasm. The issue I was having was that Cohen began being unenthusiastic about coming to me when called. She might stop walking and just hang out and not really feel like following me. My solution was to make the behaviour more exciting. I now can stick my hand out and call for a touch and she'll come running to me with quite a bit of enthusiasm. The best use of this is normally when there are few distractions around and you want a speedy recall. The Moving Sit Video Link - moving sits Like touch, sit is a super basic behaviour. Most dogs know it like the back of their hands. Cohen always had a really solid sit, and I've been doing a lot of work getting her reliable in more and more distracting environments. Another issue I was having with off-leash control was that if something was more exciting than me then my calls to come would be ignored (bicyles, running dogs, etc). Plus I was worried that I was wearing out my recall cue. So I began using the sit as a method of control. Calling for a sit means to plop your butt down and wait until I release you. Sometimes I'll release her from a distance and she comes running to me for her reward. Sometimes I'll wait until I've walked up to where she is so the sit acts more like a stay command than a recall. I've found that this is most helpful when operating around distractions. The sit seems to be a more attractive (and easier) command than a come. With both of these (the touch and the sit) you want to really make sure your dog is capable of performing the behaviours you want in the environment. I'll only ask for a sit if I'm 90% sure my dog will listen to me. I don't want her thinking it's okay to ignore it if something more interesting is happening. The more you practice it the more capable your dog will be to listen in distracting environments. Funny note: my dog gets really really anxious and whiny when she hears my voice on video. She can't figure out what the hell is going on. When I was slapping those videos together she would sit each time video-me called for it. Poor thing. So confused. Instant Jellyfish keep up the good work! It's crazy how much of a dog's behaviour is based on how you approach them. It can be hugely frustrating when you're angry and upset and your dog decides to take that opportunity to tell you to go gently caress off. I really hope you can get out to that class at some point soon. It sounds like a great opportunity for the two of you. An hour and a half drive is a lot for any dog though. How have you poisoned Major's name? I'm always worried about screwing up one of Cohen's cues if I'm not careful.
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Feb 25, 2011 20:16
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Thanks for that post a life less! I can't believe I never thought to use "touch" as a way to get Spirit to recall to me  I've been using it more as a novelty than anything else, a way to get her to run around the apartment with me when the weather's awful. We'll probably never do an off-leash walk, because this town isn't dog friendly at all, but I can definitely start incorporating it into walks for when she's feeling a bit cheeky. By the way, my dog is down to being a douche on the leash only about 20% of the time now. Considering she was running 80-90% douchitude before I started working with her I'm very pleased! She's also picked up play dead, and she's inches away from having beg down  Trick training is so drat fun.
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Feb 25, 2011 20:28
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I have one dog that has learned helplessness. Is it possible to fix that?
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Feb 25, 2011 20:28
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Bullio posted:I have one dog that has learned helplessness. Is it possible to fix that? Clicker training is good for any dog, but it's an especially excellent way to encourage the offering of behaviors and active participation in a dog with learned helplessness. Shaping games and teaching very simple behaviors with nothing but positive reinforcement (even using negative punishment as little as possible!) will be helpful. It might take a while, though.
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Feb 25, 2011 20:38
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I'm going to have to get a clicker. This guy is one of many dogs and when I first started out, I didn't know a lot about training other than what I've seen my parents do. This guy had a problem with marking EVERYTHING in the house. He still does, but now he hides the behavior which is yet another problem I'm working on. Anyway, I hate to admit it, but I spanked him every time I caught him doing something bad and tossed him outside. Since reading this thread and various links in it, I've made a huge mistake. Now if I approach him too fast, he pisses himself. If I reach down, he'll immediately roll over onto his back. He's a neat dog, especially when he's playing with the others and his confidence is up, but I need to figure out how to get him to trust me again as opposed to looking at me as someone who's liable to cause him pain. After reading some of this thread (still not through it yet), I realized I'm a big dick and I hate myself. I want to take the dogs out individually for their training sessions and such, but this guys I want to pay particular attention to since his trust/confidence seems destroyed. I haven't tried any clicker training yet. To get them to understand clicking is a good thing I need to spend a few days clicking while I give them treats, right? Like *click* then "here's a treat," right?
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Feb 25, 2011 20:58
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a life less posted:recall stuff Thanks, a life less! I taught Psyche to touch other things, but I didn't think about using a cue for my hand other than as a novelty. It's such an easy trick and if it's made to be fun, I can imagine using it not just for recall, but also for giving my dog something fun and easy to do in some of her (less-)reactive situations, to get her attention back. It is also a good way to get her close to me without relying on her to just come all the way over on her own when interesting/upsetting things are around.
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Feb 25, 2011 21:32
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a life less posted:Instant Jellyfish keep up the good work! It's crazy how much of a dog's behaviour is based on how you approach them. It can be hugely frustrating when you're angry and upset and your dog decides to take that opportunity to tell you to go gently caress off. I mostly just use his name all the time and can't seem to stop myself. Its become mostly background noise because I keep saying it even when he clearly isn't paying attention to me or is incapable of listening because he's so focused on hunting something. If I have a nickname that I have to think about (its not something I usually call him) then I'm less likely to spew it out when I ramble to him. Its mostly just a focus cue. It seems like a great class at a place where my behaviorist leads a dogs and pregnant ladies seminar so I know she'll approve. Its only open to 4 dogs at a time and fills up way in advance so I'm going to email them as soon as I get the ok from the dr. about maybe October/November classes. I'm working on CC already but I never know when the local free-range dogs are going to be around and it makes regular training hard. Moving sit is a really good idea and that video is great. Major can sit at a distance but we'll have to work at moving and distraction. Any tips about how to get started?
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Feb 25, 2011 22:31
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Bullio posted:Now if I approach him too fast, he pisses himself. If I reach down, he'll immediately roll over onto his back. He's a neat dog, especially when he's playing with the others and his confidence is up, but I need to figure out how to get him to trust me again as opposed to looking at me as someone who's liable to cause him pain.  I'm not sure what you describe is learned helplessness. Your dog does react, just not in a way you'd like. A dog with learned helplessness doesn't really do much, good or bad. I do agree that your dog seems to fear you or at least not trust you, since he feels he must resort to pretty extreme pacifying displays if you approach him in a way he sees as threatening. Do all kinds of fun stuff with your dog every day. Do whatever it is that you both enjoy - frisbee, jogging, training tricks, taking an agility/rally/flyball/whatever class. Make your presence a positive experience for him and keep it up for months. He'll get over it, if you don't relapse to punishing him. If you want, you can also countercondition him to you approaching quickly or crouching over him. Right now he's learned that these things have bad consequences. With time and patience it's possible to change that in his mind. It's really simple, but not necessarily easy. Read up on classical conditioning and counterconditioning in this thread and ask if you have any questions. About charging the clicker - it usually doesn't take very long. Click+treat two or three 10 treat sessions with a short break in between. After this see, if your dog reacts to the click looking all hopeful for his treat, you're all set! Clicker Solutions is an excellent free online resource for clickerly stuff. Good luck!
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Feb 26, 2011 06:39
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Moving sit is a really good idea and that video is great. Major can sit at a distance but we'll have to work at moving and distraction. Any tips about how to get started? I think the tricky part about a moving sit (or a down) is the whole moving part. It's sometimes tough for dogs to understand that they're to stop moving regardless of what you're doing, or where they are in relation to you. I used this video by an internet acquaintance to start me off working on moving downs. If you don't feel like watching the whole thing, fast forward to about 1:50. She uses a towel as a mark and teaches her dog that the behaviour has to be done on the mark to be rewarded. That seems like the toughest part, and once your dog has that you can start elaborating on it. Here is a video I put together months ago when I did a session of moving down/drop on recall work. It's only recently that I really started adapting it to off-leash control. Bullio posted:This guy had a problem with marking EVERYTHING in the house. He still does, but now he hides the behavior which is yet another problem I'm working on. Anyway, I hate to admit it, but I spanked him every time I caught him doing something bad and tossed him outside. As you found out, that's the problem with punishment-based training. Your dog never really understood that he wasn't supposed to stop marking in the house -- rather he associated the punishment with you seeing him mark so he is doing his best to do it without you knowing. And once the behaviour is occurring in secret it's a hell of a lot more difficult to correct. Dogs are kind of dumb sometimes and they don't always connect the behaviour with the punishment. To help get you started, you can read a few of the newer posts on Success Just Clicks. (It's the blog of the acquaintance I mentioned above.) She's doing a week of covering the basics of a clicker and why it's preferable to punishment-based training. I always think it's great when someone who previously has trained with positive punishment techniques expresses interest in switching to positive reinforcement. It really helps maintain a good relationship with your dog without being permissive. Plus it's better for your sanity. Rixatrix has some great solutions on starting to mend the relationship with your dog.
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Feb 26, 2011 16:38
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Thanks to both of you. That helps immensely. I have a lot of dogs, so I'm trying to individually train them so they'll pick up the desired behaviors. Out of the books listed in the OP, which one would be best for my shift over to PR training?
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Feb 26, 2011 17:18
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The Power of Positive Dog Training is my favorite basic dog training book, but look through different ones and see which you like best. There's a lot of good ones around
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Feb 26, 2011 17:37
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Re: Bullio:Rixatrix posted:Don't feel too bad. You didn't know better before, but you were willing to learn and change your ways once you found out about other, better ways to train dogs Naw you're one of many many millions of people that do exactly the same thing, I wasn't really any better until pretty recently.
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Feb 26, 2011 19:33
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I do appreciate that. I just feel like a heel because I always thought they realized why they were getting punished. Instead, there's this dog wondering what the hell he's getting hit for. Since this thread's so informative, I have another dog obsessed with fetch and tug games. If a rope or ball isn't available, the nearest toy or even rib bone will suffice. In addition to that, she has to be constantly near one of us. If we take the toy away, she'll camp out at our feet or follow us room to room and either sleep or lie there. If another dog approaches she starts getting all growly and snappy. Would a feasible solution be to remove all her toys and try to get her to socialize more by preventing her from setting up camp? Previous attempts have resulted in her finding another part of the room to go off and sleep in. She also shows some bullying behavior with the smaller dogs. Edit: I forgot to mention that she only likes to play these games with humans, which is the primary problem. Sometimes she'll tug with other dogs, but eventually her growls grow so aggressive the other dogs get scared off. Other times, she'll growl at a dog that even looks like it's attempting to go for the rope. Bullio fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Feb 27, 2011 |
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Feb 27, 2011 03:36
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Bullio posted:I do appreciate that. I just feel like a heel because I always thought they realized why they were getting punished. Instead, there's this dog wondering what the hell he's getting hit for. That sounds like classic resource guarding to me. She sees both you and toys as valuable and worth protecting from other dogs. The first step is management. I would pick up all the toys and only use one or two as her special tug toys. Put them away in a drawer and take them out to play with her a few times a day so she can get her yayas out. Then put it away so she doesn't have the opportunity to guard. Controlling the toys like that should cut down on her play demands too. Dogs that are obsessed over toys like that often have a lot of energy to burn. Take her out for extra exercise each day -- double what she gets now and odds are you'll see a marked improvement in her behaviour. Once a dog is sufficiently tired you set yourself up for increased success when the actual training occurs. Regarding her camping your feet, I would train a "place" command for a bed or some other comfortable spot. Make sure it's a bit of a distance away from you. It sounds like she does this herself once her efforts are ignored, so that's good. Here's a youtube video I searched up quickly that should help you teach it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B684J6MLENo The woman in the video isn't doing a great job of it, but it's decent enough to give you an idea. If she gets growly and the other dogs back away/give her space then she has just been reinforced for guarding behaviour. To combat this potential reinforcement I would recommend giving her a time-out that is removed from what she's guarding. Quietly and calmly get up and remove her from the room for a few minutes and let her back in once she's displaying proper behaviour. If she does it again, remove her to time-out again. Be consistent. If she's lounging around and chooses not to react when another dog comes up then reward the hell out of her. Make the right choice super appealing. Regarding the bossyness towards the small dogs, again, utilize time-outs to give the dog a consequence for her behaviour. I prefer time-outs to verbal reprimands (or other punishers) since they a) don't add additional energy into a conflict the way a raised voice would and b) there is no menace or stress attached to it. There's a training idea referred to as NILIF, or Nothing In Life Is Free. This means that for every item your dogs want you're going to ask something from them in return. If they comply, they get what they want. If they don't, well, they get nothing. You can use this for everything from getting up on the couch to going outside to getting a pat on the head to dinner time and more. Getting your dogs used to having to listen to you to get something you want is very useful (not to mention easy). You don't necessarily need your dog to "socialize" in the sense that she needs to have every dog in the world be her buddy. Rather I would aim for her cohabitating peacefully with everyone else. Some dogs aren't big into socializing and that's okay. And since it sounds like you're interested in some light reading, I highly suggest you pick up and read Mine by Jean Donaldson. It's about 100 pages of exercises you can set up that will systematically reduce/eliminate resource guarding in any dog. Here is a PDF written by Donaldson to give you a briefer version of what's contained in the book: http://www.4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf She employs classical conditioning to change a dog's conditioned emotional reaction -- it essentially will allow you to change what was previously a negative experience (another dog approaching her while close to you) into a positive. We talk a lot about classical conditioning in this thread, but if you need additional pointers just ask.
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Feb 27, 2011 05:33
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If anybody is ever near a marine lab such as Long Marine Lab in Santa Cruz, try to get a behind the scenes tour with the pinniped/cetacean cognition group. R+ is pretty impressive when it's a 1000 lb female elephant seal who will show you her teeth, come, touch, target, roll over, etc. It really helped me figure out how the training is so effective. I liked seeing how well conditioned they were- the dolphins will target for up to 30 minutes! The researchers were also incredibly friendly and willing to answer all my questions. Essentially, if everyone trained their dogs in 5-8 sessions a day, they would also be perfectly behaved! There is also a trained southern sea otter who is the cutest drat thing I've ever seen. This is the place if you're curious on the research they do or methods http://www.pinnipedlab.org/
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Feb 27, 2011 05:35
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My 2 month old siberian husky/chow chow mix likes the "touch" command. The problem is she likes to touch my hand with an open mouth and her teeth are sharp. Anything I should be doing to teach her to keep her mouth closed or is it just she's a puppy and likes to mouth things at this age?
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Feb 27, 2011 07:15
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Hdip posted:My 2 month old siberian husky/chow chow mix likes the "touch" command. The problem is she likes to touch my hand with an open mouth and her teeth are sharp. Anything I should be doing to teach her to keep her mouth closed or is it just she's a puppy and likes to mouth things at this age? At two months most puppies are bitey assholes. You can watch this video and start work on more appropriate use of the mouth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c77--cCHPyU ______________________________ So, I found an interesting article about something called Constructional Aggression Treatment. It's long. Very long. But I'm going to post it below. It's written by Pat Miller. It is an intense alternative method for treating aggressive dogs. Unfortunately it's really beyond the reach of the average dog owner (for whom it seems like counter conditioning will always be the preferable treatment method). But I know a few of you are dealing with aggressive dogs of your own so I thought I'd share. I'm not sure if you can successfully adopt this method in more casual environments -- my guess is that you can't. I'm not sure I'm completely comfortable with this method due to the high stress that it puts on the dog, and it starts off sounding a lot like flooding. But I do find it fascinating that the trainers decided to approach it operantly as opposed to classically. So, with that said, here ya go. The Whole Dog Journal, vol 11 no 5, 5 May 2008 posted:
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Feb 27, 2011 14:26
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I've heard of CAT before and I would've liked to try it myself (with the help of a trainer of course) or at least observe it done. However it's really difficult to find reliable enough helpers to pull that off. The technique reminded me of working with skittish llamas (I think?) in Don't Shoot the Dog or a method for (re)teaching the table outlined recently in Clean Run. They used allowing the dog off the obstacle as reinforcement for staying on it.
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Feb 27, 2011 14:32
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a life less posted:article That's very, very interesting. We did something similar with our trainer the first (and only) time she was in our apartment. We has her sit on the far side of the room and we had Psyche in the hallway. We played Leave It where we would block her view if she was reacting to the trainer and step out of the way when she was not reacting. Then when she was calm for a few seconds, we would step into an adjoining room as a stress relief reward for being good. We are close to starting the same kind of exercise inside with a friend of ours (we've been working with him outside so far) and maybe this time I will try to set it up such that he leaves instead of us taking her into the next room. That may at least get him up to a distance where he can comfortably start throwing food to her, which is what we've been doing so far. We're also going to try to find some doggie volunteers if it ever stops snowing and do desensitization exercises with the mix of counter-conditioning and simple operant conditioning (asking for a simple sit/focus) I've gotten in the habit of doing. I don't think that I will attempt to do this whole procedure on my own, but I think that incorporating the other dog backing up when Psyche is calm can't hurt as long as we get the timing right. We won't be doing super long sessions, but since Psyche's problem is pretty line of sight, we were probably going to have to have one of the dogs duck behind an object for the first rounds anyway. I wish I could go to my trainer with this it's already something she sort of does (she never walks away from us when Psyche is reacting to her). But I couldn't afford one-on-one time with her like this.
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Feb 27, 2011 16:22
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a life less posted:Article That sounds a lot like Behavior Adjustment Training but crammed into three really long days. While it sounds like it works I think its really out of reach for the majority of dog owners, where CC is pretty easy for anyone to follow. I can't think of anyone I know with "problem" dogs who also has thousands of dollars and some vacation time to spend training. I also wonder how it would work on softer dogs or ones with chronic anxiety issues. I'm sure the pit in the article is happy to work for its owner all day but my sensitive little creampuff would try to climb into my lap to reassure himself and if that didn't work he would just shut down and start doing avoidance behaviors. It wouldn't be reacting but it certainly wouldn't be learning. I'm going to have to find that article and see if the researchers involved have made any progress since then.
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Feb 27, 2011 17:40
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I've mentioned a few times now that my current project is teaching Cohen how to do a handstand. I now have photographic evidence of it. Handstand!! Here's the video link. Process is slow since I've focused on building it up in stages. Plus, it takes a lot of core strength which takes time to build up. _____ Step one is teaching your dog to target an object with their back feet. Steps two - seven are slowly increasing the size of the object your dog is targeting. Step eight is getting the dog to push itself up from a vertical object. It's around here that I start adding a name to the behaviour. Step nine is working on duration. Step ten is the finished behaviour with no wall support and longer duration. _____ Steps eight through ten are theoretical right now, since I've not gotten there yet. I might end up changing my plan a bit if I run into trouble at some point. So far the toughest step has been one. Once I got that it was just a matter of time. Yes, this behaviour seems almost totally pointless, but it's pretty fun and a nifty party trick.
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Feb 28, 2011 20:25
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ahah that is fantastic
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Feb 28, 2011 20:56
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a life less posted:Yes, this behaviour seems almost totally pointless, but it's pretty fun and a nifty party trick. This is the only reason to train an animal. Please explain exactly how you got to step one.
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Feb 28, 2011 20:58
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