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SlyFrog posted:You are one of the 3 people on the internet that is willing to consider both sides of something and admit when they feel like they overreacted. Color me impressed.
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Feb 19, 2011 19:46
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:You need to consider the "shithole" comments in the context of the discussion though. When higher education is only available to a privileged few and the rest of the plebs have to do everything short of selling their souls to be something beyond a ditch-digger, it really does begin to look less like France and more like Nigeria. The problem here is higher education is over-available (at a price). If law school was free that wouldn't fix three years of opportunity cost (and you'd have even more students, probably).
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Feb 19, 2011 20:03
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Colorblind Pilot posted:Color me impressed. We would, but you probably wouldn't notice. 
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Feb 19, 2011 20:04
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How does the life of an average American law student compare to that of a Darfur war orphan?
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Feb 19, 2011 20:19
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The Rokstar posted:How does the life of an average American law student compare to that of a Darfur war orphan? The law student bitches about circumstances they are entirely accountable for. I have no sympathy for anyone who maxed out their loans on a lark to go to school. evilweasel posted:The problem here is higher education is over-available (at a price). If law school was free that wouldn't fix three years of opportunity cost (and you'd have even more students, probably). Like have some kind of standards for academic quality? It's obvious that people are not behaving in a rational way. See students attending Cooley ITE. I'd be fine with requiring a student to have either a (1) 3.5+ or (2) 164+ LSAT for accessibility to federal loan guarantees. If you don't have either of those, then you have no business in law school. Some people would probably take out loans at 17% interest because they're retards, but hey that's how the world works. Should avoid the antitrust problems that owned the ABA. Edit: the expression from the NYtimes was that "the market doesn't seem to respond to the laws of supply and demand." If something doesn't obey supply/demand, there's probably an artificial construct that is responsible. In this case, it's federally guaranteed loans. Do you think Wells Faro would lend 100k to a prospective Florida Gulf Coastal grad without federal guarantees? Omerta fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 19, 2011 |
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Feb 19, 2011 20:25
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Omerta posted:Like have some kind of standards for academic quality? I wasn't specifically proposing a solution. My point is that CmdrSmirnoff is clearly wrong about the 'law school problem'. It's not even unique to law school, there are similar problems with other graduate degrees except medicine. If you don't even know what the problem is you've got no chance of fixing it. That said, I think that's one of the better solutions: making it like medicine - the hard part is getting into law school, not getting a job after.
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Feb 19, 2011 20:31
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evilweasel posted:I wasn't specifically proposing a solution. My point is that CmdrSmirnoff is clearly wrong about the 'law school problem'. It's not even unique to law school, there are similar problems with other graduate degrees except medicine. If you don't even know what the problem is you've got no chance of fixing it. The problem is that the ABA actually used to try to enforce some minimum standard of quality, but lost a lawsuit (lol) to the NESL which forced the ABA to accredit it. The ABA didn't go accreditation crazy til after that suit. For reasons that are beyond my understanding, the ABA was violating antitrust statutes (and the AMA isn't) the solution is going to have to be related to loan conditions since the judiciary hamstrung the ABA from protecting itself. I think unscrupulous colleges is a way more complex issue. I have no idea how to deal with that. Edit: getting a 3.5+ or 164+ is "hard" only under an extremely generous definition. Then again, I'd like to see J.D. programs constricted to 50 or so schools and expand how much stuff paralegals can handle. Kind of like the ongoing dynamic between M.D.s, P.A.s, and RN/CRNA. There's no reason for a full M.D. to run basic clinic duty and take blood, just like there's no reason to have a J.D. doing a lot of the simple poo poo. Let's be honest, it gets delegated to paralegals anyways. That's how things would be set up in my magical world where I'm czar of the universe. Omerta fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Feb 19, 2011 |
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Feb 19, 2011 20:59
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Omerta posted:Edit: getting a 3.5+ or 164+ is "hard" only under an extremely generous definition. Then again, I'd like to see J.D. programs constricted to 50 or so schools and expand how much stuff paralegals can handle. Kind of like the ongoing dynamic between M.D.s, P.A.s, and RN/CRNA. There's no reason for a full M.D. to run basic clinic duty and take blood, just like there's no reason to have a J.D. doing a lot of the simple poo poo. Let's be honest, it gets delegated to paralegals anyways. That's how things would be set up in my magical world where I'm czar of the universe. This already happens, never mind that it's technically illegal. There isn't a solo alive that doesn't have a paralegal doing more than they're supposed to. I realize you alluded to that but there are plenty of shops where the lawyer is a complete figurehead (hint: these are the ones serving immigrant communities where the newly minted JD that knows nothing is hired to be a front for the "paralegal" with 25 years' experience that hasn't bothered to shell out $100K for three years of useless schooling) and pretty much 98% use paralegals in violation of at least one of those codes of ethics that nobody gives a drat about once they pass the MPRE. e: I have probably gotten somewhat more cynical about the law since I've stopped all pretense of wanting to practice it! Adar fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Feb 19, 2011 |
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Feb 19, 2011 21:09
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Omerta posted:The problem is that the ABA actually used to try to enforce some minimum standard of quality, but lost a lawsuit (lol) to the NESL which forced the ABA to accredit it. The ABA didn't go accreditation crazy til after that suit. For reasons that are beyond my understanding, the ABA was violating antitrust statutes (and the AMA isn't) the solution is going to have to be related to loan conditions since the judiciary hamstrung the ABA from protecting itself. What standards does the AMA have that the ABA is not allowed to have? By the way, it was Massachusetts School of Law who brought the suit you're thinking of. The law school lost on summary judgment. The DOJ also sued, and the settlement between the ABA and the DOJ is what prevents higher accreditation standards for law schools.
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Feb 19, 2011 21:45
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The AMA exercises no control over medical schools or their accreditation, the agency responsible for that is the AAMC, the Association of American Medical Colleges.
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Feb 19, 2011 21:47
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Der Meister posted:The AMA exercises no control over medical schools or their accreditation, the agency responsible for that is the AAMC, the Association of American Medical Colleges. Also med schools are hugely expensive to operate and run. All a law school needs is unemployed lawyers to teach the class.
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Feb 19, 2011 21:53
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Roger_Mudd posted:Also med schools are hugely expensive to operate and run. All a law school needs is unemployed lawyers to teach the class. Some of my law professors get paid more than doctors. Then they have consulting and expert witness work on the side. G-Mawwwwwww fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Feb 19, 2011 |
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Feb 19, 2011 22:05
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Roger_Mudd posted:Also med schools are hugely expensive to operate and run. All a law school needs is unemployed lawyers to teach the class. Yes the university practically needs to own a hospital as well as a research department to get LCME accreditation. This is why so many osteopathic schools have been popping up. And the supply of doctors is also controlled by residency spots which you need federal support to open. AAMC only controls allopathic schools it doesn't control osteopathic schools. Also is it true that most people can't afford non public lawyers? http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/middle-class_dilemma_cant_afford_lawyers_cant_qualify_for_legal_aid/ Forever Zero fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Feb 19, 2011 |
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Feb 19, 2011 23:42
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Forever Zero posted:Also is it true that most people can't afford non public lawyers? Yes. I can't afford me. We middle classians can't afford medical care, either, and can barely afford health insurance.
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Feb 20, 2011 00:40
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Direwolf posted:Nothing like realizing you wrote a brief on the wrong issue, using the wrong cases, 3 hours before said brief is due. Good thing legal writing is a graded course here!! I would gladly sacrifice my firstborn son in order to get out of writing my brief. Privacy Act/FOIA battle 
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Feb 20, 2011 04:51
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Macnigore posted:However France is not idyllic. We have a right wing government, trying to change that since 15 years. Bit by bit they are dismantling this system and they are trying to give more to the rich, and less to everyone else. They justify it with bullshit motos like "work more to earn more" etc. Its 100% bullshit but it works incredibly well and the right wing has been in power for around 20 years now. Le temps ne fait rien à l’affaire; quand on est con, on est con
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Feb 20, 2011 05:11
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Omerta posted:I would gladly sacrifice my firstborn son in order to get out of writing my brief. Privacy Act/FOIA battle I wrote 25 pages of brief on Friday, as my job. I brief literally every day. Not quite all day (thank god my secretary is an extrovert and yaks my loving brains out) but definitely every day. If you hate writing that sort of poo poo then you are way in the wrong profession. Edit: oh you're at Emory. Don't worry you have no chance at getting any job so don't worry about getting a job like mine (or literally any other lawyer's). Keep hating law school for 3 years then graduate then what the gently caress are you thinking jesus christ. BigHead fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Feb 20, 2011 |
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Feb 20, 2011 06:03
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BigHead posted:I wrote 25 pages of brief on Friday, as my job. I brief literally every day. Not quite all day (thank god my secretary is an extrovert and yaks my loving brains out) but if you hate writing that sort of poo poo then you are way in the wrong profession. I haven't written a brief since law school, and I've probably written at most 5 very informal memos since I was a summer associate.
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Feb 20, 2011 06:06
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BigHead posted:Edit: oh you're at Emory. Don't worry you have no chance at getting any job so don't worry about getting a job like mine (or literally any other lawyer's). Keep hating law school for 3 years then graduate then what the gently caress are you thinking jesus christ. Are you thinking of a different Emory or what is going on in this post.
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Feb 20, 2011 10:51
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Forever Zero posted:Also is it true that most people can't afford non public lawyers? Meanwhile taking a criminal case to trial will cost in excess of $10k, more if it is a felony, really serious cases can hit six figures without much trouble. You can save money (but not much) and get a lovely lawyer, but then you're hosed. And then there is a civil. . . .
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Feb 20, 2011 11:12
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Omerta fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Aug 17, 2011 |
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Feb 20, 2011 15:49
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Did you forget what thread you're posting in or what
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Feb 20, 2011 15:54
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I didn't mean to make someone all mad with the "third world" comment but compare the situation of even our most succesful middle class citizens to that of basically any other first world nation. Yes our average standard of living is high but nearly all of us are one catastrophic accident or illness away from being penniless. And I'd rather be broke in basically any Western European or Scandinavian nation before I was poor in America. That's what I meant by "third world", and while there are dudes in South America with lovely lives, that doesn't mean the situation of our middle and working class doesn't suck compared to similarly situated people in similarly well off countries. I'm not raging against student loans or the legal job market or anything like that, I have a pretty good job. One that I can't quit to give a go at hanging my own shingle because I can't afford to self-insure a family of four. USA!
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Feb 20, 2011 16:09
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e: nvm, don't want to contribute to derail
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Feb 20, 2011 16:14
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nm posted:Yes, the max for qualifying for a PD in CA is basically the poverty line. So it seems that there isn't enough lawyers to help the middle class. So in sense there is a shortage of lawyers. Why doesn't the ABA work harder to increase the number of law schools. Also raising tuition would be appropriate so each law school can be more competitive in comparisons to other law schools. Only 49,700 Law student matriculated in 2010 http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/vs-ethnic-gender-matrics.asp that is such a small number it basically means more people get into law school than those who apply to medical school. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/us-firms-fish-for-our-talent/story-e6frg97x-1111114095300 quote:FACING a drought of new talent from US colleges, a New York law firm has spent the past 16 months quietly drawing on some of the best of Australia's young legal talent to fill its ranks. Forever Zero fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 20, 2011 |
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Feb 20, 2011 18:20
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MoFauxHawk posted:If all six law schools listed on Wikipedia are legit, then this isn't true. New Zealand has a bit over four million people while the United States has 308 million. No one thinks Waikato is a real law school though
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Feb 20, 2011 18:38
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So I spent the last week protesting at the Wisconsin state capitol and totally forgot I have to produce a topic/outline in my Post Conviction Remedies seminar this week. I'm so sleep deprived/worn out from the chanting and marching that I can't for the life of me think of a good topic. Can anyone offer any ideas for a topic in a 25-30 page paper on a criminal post-conviction issue that I can find a decent amount of published material/cases on? I know I'm taking the easy road here by asking. I'm thinking something involving expungement/sealing issues with non-violent crimes but I can't really narrow it down. I guess I just don't know what the big current problems are in the criminal side of things. Can any practicing goons provide some insight in post-conviction problems they see in the system? My bosses at my shitlaw crim/PI job have been remarkably unhelpful.
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Feb 20, 2011 19:16
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Sex offender registry stuff probably has more on it than the rest of that topic put together.
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Feb 20, 2011 19:41
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Yojimbo Sancho posted:Can anyone offer any ideas for a topic in a 25-30 page paper on a criminal post-conviction issue that I can find a decent amount of published material/cases on? Grammar Fascist fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Feb 21, 2011 |
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Feb 20, 2011 19:45
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puchu posted:No one thinks Waikato is a real law school though Ditto AUT law school. I met a girl going there who wanted to go into animal rights law. I tried to explain to her that it was very difficult finding employment in a legal field that doesn't exist.
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Feb 20, 2011 20:36
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Yojimbo Sancho posted:So I spent the last week protesting at the Wisconsin state capitol and totally forgot I have to produce a topic/outline in my Post Conviction Remedies seminar this week. I'm so sleep deprived/worn out from the chanting and marching that I can't for the life of me think of a good topic. This would seem to be a state-by-state issue, but in my State the problem seems to be IAC in making sure that a judgment is entered correctly (that is, entered under a statute that allows expunction). I don't know if I could squeeze 25 pages out of it in my State (well, maybe if I did each and every sub-statute that allows expunction and cited cases showing a problem with it). Every time I plead out a client, I panic over the judgment to make sure I've covered it (and then a client will get probation revoked and my worrying was for naught).
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Feb 20, 2011 20:41
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Yojimbo Sancho posted:
Whether Padilla v. Kentucky applies retroactively. Whether/to what extent Padilla undercuts the holding of Scott v. Illinois.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:08
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Today: Her: Wait, you went to law school? Me: Yeah. But I dropped out. Her: Didn't like it? Me: No, I loved it. Her: Too expensive? Me: No, I had the top scholarship at the school. Her: So why are you working here? Me: It's a long story
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Feb 20, 2011 22:47
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I wish there was a one-sentence explanation for the everyday American that explains why law school is actually a terrible idea and doesn't lead to millions. As it is now, I can't be bothered to get into a long discussion about why law school is horrible for almost everyone at almost any price.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:48
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There are a billion cases on whether Padilla applies retroactively. I've written two. Find a new topic.
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Feb 20, 2011 22:55
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Sulecrist, PM me or get in chat
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Feb 20, 2011 23:26
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CHAT WITH LAW GOON SUPERSTARS LIVE NOW http://cgiirc.synirc.net/ #LAWGOONS SHOULD I GO TO LAW SCHOOL? LIVE CONFERENCE NOW! #LAWGOONS atlas of bugs fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 20, 2011 |
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Feb 20, 2011 23:36
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Thanks for the tips guys, I'm going to do something about the lack of a federal expungement statute/mechanism. Also #lawgoons owns. Let Atlas wow you with tales of his heroism and tragedy.
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Feb 20, 2011 23:57
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Yojimbo Sancho posted:Thanks for the tips guys, I'm going to do something about the lack of a federal expungement statute/mechanism. GET BACK TO THE PICKET LINE!
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Feb 21, 2011 00:18
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Yojimbo Sancho posted:Thanks for the tips guys, I'm going to do something about the lack of a federal expungement statute/mechanism. it's half terrible/half awesome that I made a major life decision (dropping the #1 scholarship at a T1 law school) mostly because of an internet thread
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Feb 21, 2011 02:21
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