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Mooseontheloose: May 13, 2003

No one was able to corroborate Allen West's account of what happened, there was no ambush, and he said that he might of been wrong.

This is before we talk about some of the arrogant, bullying, and vitriolic statements he has made. The man is a psychopath and hides behind his uniform.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 19:47

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# ? May 10, 2024 09:51

thefncrow: Mar 14, 2001

davidb posted:

I guess I dont see scaring a prisoner as torture. My drill sergeant did it all the time. Or tried too, I knew he couldnt hurt me so wasnt too scared. More like somewhat stressed. If he had beat the dude, waterboarded then yeah, he went over my boundaries. But not scaring a dude. I see youtube videos of people scaring the crap out of each other all the time.

The proper term for what West did was "mock execution", which has traditionally been classified as torture, and your attempt to reduce a mock execution to "scaring" is as dishonest and reprehensible as Limbaugh claiming that waterboarding is the equivalent of a "frat-house prank".

thefncrow fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Feb 24, 2011

# ? Feb 24, 2011 19:50

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

davidb posted:

But do those groups make actions I would consider terrorist in nature. Blowing up buildings, people etc.

Basques, Zapatistas, Tamil Tigers, Indian Maoists...

# ? Feb 24, 2011 19:58

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

davidb posted:

I guess I dont see scaring a prisoner as torture. My drill sergeant did it all the time. Or tried too, I knew he couldnt hurt me so wasnt too scared. More like somewhat stressed. If he had beat the dude, waterboarded then yeah, he went over my boundaries. But not scaring a dude. I see youtube videos of people scaring the crap out of each other all the time.

Yeah see, if you were a prisoner to a foreign power, you wouldn't know that they couldn't hurt you. In fact, if you were a foreigner prison to the US, you know that they could put you in Gitmo or Baghram or whatever other black site or rendition you to Egypt for torture. It's a pretty critical difference between being a soldier in training and being a POW.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 20:17

davidb: Apr 11, 2007; by XyloJW

quote:

No one was able to corroborate Allen West's account of what happened, there was no ambush, and he said that he might of been wrong.

"In his letter, Senator Warner stated that one potential attacker was apprehended and potential ambush sites were identified and avoided as a result of Mr. Hamoodi's interrogation. Colonel West notes that there were no further attacks on him or his men after the interrogation."

so probably something was accomplished, and if it wasnt then he did what he could. Other options werent available other than doing nothing.

quote:

This is before we talk about some of the arrogant, bullying, and vitriolic statements he has made. The man is a psychopath and hides behind his uniform

I respect your opinion that he is arrogant, bullying and vitriolic. But hes a man of war, hes got strong opinions about what is essentially the enemy hes been fighting. Im not particularly surprised by his opinions. I have bad opinions about muslims and I havent even had his experiences.

But no matter how you or I disagree with him. Does not make him psychopath.

quote:

The proper term for what West did was "mock execution", which has traditionally been classified as torture, and your attempt to reduce a mock execution to "scaring" is as dishonest and reprehensible as Limbaugh claiming that waterboarding is the equivalent of a "frat-house prank"

interrogation is largely about causing stress. its not about giving the guy a vacation and he will decide to divulge information. In terms of stressing a guy out many things can be called torture. So if you call shooting a gun near someones head mock execution torture. Then so be it.

When I think of military, spy interrogations. I think of fists to the face, cutting fingers off. Scaring a dude with mock execution falls in my realm of comfort.

I am probably reprehensible in plenty of peoples eyes in this topic. But I am putting myself out there in an honest way knowing the majority here are against me.

quote:

Basques, Zapatistas, Tamil Tigers, Indian Maoists.

what do I do with this information?

# ? Feb 24, 2011 20:27

SmuglyDismissed: Nov 27, 2007; IGNORE ME!!!

thefncrow posted:

The proper term for what West did was "mock execution", which has traditionally been classified as torture, and your attempt to reduce a mock execution to "scaring" is as dishonest and reprehensible as Limbaugh claiming that waterboarding is the equivalent of a "frat-house prank".

For some reason people place a higher value on harm that involves physical violence and especially if it leaves visible marks on a person. You can gently caress someone up psychologically without laying a finger on them and the damage is often a lot harder to heal. On top of that, as you try to recover people will constantly diminish what you went through.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 20:31

Mooseontheloose: May 13, 2003

davidb posted:

I respect your opinion that he is arrogant, bullying and vitriolic. But hes a man of war, hes got strong opinions about what is essentially the enemy hes been fighting. Im not particularly surprised by his opinions. I have bad opinions about muslims and I havent even had his experiences.

But no matter how you or I disagree with him. Does not make him psychopath.

He is buying into culture war rhetoric about other religions. He says that Islam is the enemy and their inherent believes make them violent. When he was question about which believes he was referring to, he told a man to leave since he can't answer the question. Which indicates to me, he only says that because he believes his Christianity is superior to all believes. He essentially thinks that anyone who practices Islam is a violent barbarian.

This extends to anyone who dares disagree with him. In Allen West's own words: "The malignant narcissism of the President, and the liberal progressives, is laser focused on the disrespect and the destruction of the American Warrior class. They detest anyone who has the courage of conviction and love of America, something which they find unconscionable "

"Liberals seek to destroy any institution of intrinsic value: God, country, family, honor, valor, courage, VIRTUE... Why? Because if such things exist, then they must be defended, which brings them back to their fear of action."

Sorry, that's a psychopath to me. Only his feelings and believes matter.

He then ignores repeated violent rhetoric from the Tea Party, Christians, and Timothy McVeighs in the world saying that the liberals are trying to destroy America.

edit: Also, how do the non-violent protests in Eygpt and the rest of the Middle East fit his world view.

Mooseontheloose fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 24, 2011

# ? Feb 24, 2011 20:36

Dr. Arbitrary: Mar 15, 2006; Bleak Gremlin

I have a feeling that this is a language issue. The word scary doesn't cut it; waterboarding isn't an 'uncomfortable' situation that makes one 'concerned'.

Unless your drill instructor would do things like: Woke you up in the middle of the night, marched you out of the building in your skivvies and then pulled out a pistol, lead you to an empty marching field, forced you to kneel as he placed the gun against your head and then gave a speech explaining exactly why he's loving tired of your bullshit, and then fired the gun past your ear before laughing and slapping you on the back and telling you to make sure that your laces are done right over left instead of the other way around. Unless your drill instructor did stuff like that, you weren't getting 'scared' on the same level as Mr. Hamoodi.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 20:48

SmuglyDismissed: Nov 27, 2007; IGNORE ME!!!

Allen West posted:

"Liberals seek to destroy any institution of intrinsic value: God, country, family, honor, valor, courage, VIRTUE... Why? Because if such things exist, then they must be defended, which brings them back to their fear of action."

Haha, what?

Conservatives love having it both ways with everything. In one comment their opposition is made up of bumbling fools who will never succeed at anything. The next will have them as part of a vast conspiracy that is just one step away from destroying moral goodness.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 20:53

Thenipwax: Jun 20, 2001; by Ozmaugh

davidb posted:

I am probably reprehensible in plenty of peoples eyes in this topic. But I am putting myself out there in an honest way knowing the majority here are against me.

Nah, I've got your back. Muslims are terrible people and I am scared of them too! Torture is all in the eye of the beholder, and I could give a gently caress what the U.N. considers torture. Europeans are the coolest, but only the white ones.

In case you can't tell, I'm being facetious you ignorant jackass. It is pretty telling that you're in the military, as you can't write a proper sentence to save your life.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 21:08

Mooseontheloose: May 13, 2003

Thenipwax posted:

Nah, I've got your back. Muslims are terrible people and I am scared of them too! Torture is all in the eye of the beholder, and I could give a gently caress what the U.N. considers torture. Europeans are the coolest, but only the white ones.

In case you can't tell, I'm being facetious you ignorant jackass. It is pretty telling that you're in the military, as you can't write a proper sentence to save your life.

That's not helpful.

I think the main problem we are experiencing here is that you feel that Muslims happen to be inherently violent. Yet you can express the why. Much in the same way Allen West is expressing himself. He is just sure that the others are violent. Do you see how this maybe a problem?

And this maybe a little inside baseball but Allen West was essentially forced to retire because the Army was going to launch a full investigation where he would lose his pension if he lost. At least that is the story but the Republicans fought to politicize his actions.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 21:12

thefncrow: Mar 14, 2001

I was just going to ignore that last post after the bit where you admit that you're scum and you accept that, but I have to point this out, because it's so bewildering.

davidb posted:

I have bad opinions about muslims and I havent even had his experiences.

"I'm a giant bigot without even a good reason, I can only imagine how big a bigot West is after Iraq!"

What the hell is this argument supposed to be? I mean, really, what sort of persuasive power is this statement supposed to hold?

# ? Feb 24, 2011 21:27

Dr. Arbitrary: Mar 15, 2006; Bleak Gremlin

thefncrow posted:

What the hell is this argument supposed to be? I mean, really, what sort of persuasive power is this statement supposed to hold?

I think it's more of a "I have emotional reactions that I just can't turn off, even though I know they're not based in fact, West probably has it even worse"

There's basically been a negative advertisement campaign against Muslims for decades, doubly since 9/11. It shouldn't be a mystery why someone might have irrational beliefs on the subject.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 21:37

Grem: Mar 29, 2004; It's how her species communicates

Actually, since davidb has stated he at least went through boot camp, he's probably been deployed to the Middle East, Iraq, or Afghanistan. PTSD effects everyone differently and while plenty of people come back normal and well adjusted it's not abnormal for someone to come back with a prejudice view of Muslims. It's not considered "bad" in this country to view Muslims this way, unfortunately, so a ton of soldiers are walking around with psychological problems like this and are never treated. I can see where someone who was never deployed could write that off as "oh, you're a bigot", but it's a real issue, and it's a sad one.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 21:44

JerkyBunion: Jun 22, 2002

RE: Your irrational fear of Muslims:

There's a religious fundamentalist group in Northern Uganda that has since spread to other countries. They bomb and attack civilian targets, they go to churches and massacre those at mass, they rape and pillage and kidnap.

They are Christian and this is happening now.

People do terrible things when they are placed in poor conditions (economically, physically, mentally). You have an irrational hatred or fear of muslims. Your fear is unfounded.

I don't understand because presumably you know this. There is no reason for you to dislike muslims. You know it's wrong yet you profess these ideas anyway. You're the one who controls this perception.

Finally, your CDC analogy is really bad.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 23:01

Thenipwax: Jun 20, 2001; by Ozmaugh

Grem posted:

I can see where someone who was never deployed could write that off as "oh, you're a bigot", but it's a real issue, and it's a sad one.

If it isn't bigoted, what is it?

I do agree with your overall point though. Look at all the vets that had serious issues coming back from Vietnam. We're going to go through the same loving thing again.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 23:02

Grem: Mar 29, 2004; It's how her species communicates

Thenipwax posted:

If it isn't bigoted, what is it?

It's bigoted, but it's due to a mental illness.

Treating the illness should be the focus, though, not just writing the person off as a lost cause racist.

To put it another way, someone with a gastrointestinal disease can't eat, say cabbage, no one says "You're a horrible person because you can't eat cabbage", they say "You should probably see a doctor". If a vet comes back from Iraq or Afghanistan and thinks all Muslim people are out to get him, the response shouldn't be "You're a racist", it should be "You need to seek out psychiatric help".

Grem fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Feb 24, 2011

# ? Feb 24, 2011 23:10

Plom Bar: Jun 5, 2004; hardest time i ever done

davidb posted:

interrogation is largely about causing stress. its not about giving the guy a vacation and he will decide to divulge information.

This is actually the exact opposite of truth. Seriously, go to a library and read up on the science of interrogation.

# ? Feb 24, 2011 23:21

Sanschel: Aug 9, 2002

Grem posted:

It's bigoted, but it's due to a mental illness.

Treating the illness should be the focus, though, not just writing the person off as a lost cause racist.

To put it another way, someone with a gastrointestinal disease can't eat, say cabbage, no one says "You're a horrible person because you can't eat cabbage", they say "You should probably see a doctor". If a vet comes back from Iraq or Afghanistan and thinks all Muslim people are out to get him, the response shouldn't be "You're a racist", it should be "You need to seek out psychiatric help".

Except, how do you determine those who are bigots as a result of traumatic experiences, and those who are bigots because they're just assholes?

# ? Feb 24, 2011 23:53

Grem: Mar 29, 2004; It's how her species communicates

I don't know, surveys before and after deployment?

# ? Feb 24, 2011 23:54

the: Jul 18, 2004; by Cowcaster

When you're fighting in a war you have to be "the good guy," at least in your own mind. This means you have to create a villain. I'm sure it's a way to rationalize the situation. "They're all evil Muslim terrorists. I'm the righteous person."

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:01

davidb: Apr 11, 2007; by XyloJW

quote:

For some reason people place a higher value on harm that involves physical violence and especially if it leaves visible marks on a person. You can gently caress someone up psychologically without laying a finger on them and the damage is often a lot harder to heal. On top of that, as you try to recover people will constantly diminish what you went through.

because biologically we react to visual violence. A bone sticking out of an arm with black/blue bruises and blood everywhere gets an immediate physical response from our bodies. We can nod our heads in understanding of someones mental hurt but its not on the same level.

quote:

He is buying into culture war rhetoric about other religions. He says that Islam is the enemy and their inherent believes make them violent. When he was question about which believes he was referring to, he told a man to leave since he can't answer the question.

you hang out in middle east and see the population there all muslims acting violent and not up to our sensitive western standards of conduct(which encompasses many cultural details). Even if you cant place your finger on the exact reasons for their actions you conclude that their beliefs make them violent.

On the flip side, muslims look at our culture. See our commercials, facebook profiles, dating websites and conclude that were pretty loose about sex. And they would be mostly right. To them thats bad, so in a large part we are bad in their eyes.

We simply dont value the same thing. When they see something bad they are more likely to want to end it with violence, for allah and all that good stuff. Christianity used to be the same way, its passed on from that phase. And maybe islam will too. But for now...

Some stereotypes are there for a reason. When I was dealing with Asians in school I generally expected them to be on top of their work. I knew that maybe they wouldnt be, but I dont remember being to the contrary. Picking project partners it was a safe bet. Conversely the guy with hat on backwards and baggy pants was probably not a good choice. Could the Asian guy be a videogame junky who is worthless and the baggy pants guy a closet genius. Maybe but unlikely. Generalizations like this are a useful survival tool from an evolution perspective. Last time I ate this glossy plant(with 3 leaves probably) I broke out with a rash. I will stay away from glossy plants in the future.

quote:

Which indicates to me, he only says that because he believes his Christianity is superior to all believes. He essentially thinks that anyone who practices Islam is a violent barbarian.

I dont believe christianity is superior. There are enough bring out your blades quotes in the bible to match the Quran. Its the people/culture that bring it to the next level. I respect budhists more than either for example.

Who knows, someday soon christianity in the US could take a turn for the ugly and become more violent. Certainly weve seen some leanings in that direction. And then Ill be talking about how I dont feel comfortable around American christians.

As is, I have issue with tea party, extreme conservatives/liberals. I could see these groups diving over the edge and giving people in other countries the same bad taste that I have for muslims.

quote:

I have a feeling that this is a language issue. The word scary doesn't cut it; waterboarding isn't an 'uncomfortable' situation that makes one 'concerned'.

If Im in a warzone and Im arrested as an informant. I will gladly take some scaring over straight up physical torture(which will also leave psychological marks).

What I get from Mr Wests story is that the informant was holding out information. Not because he didnt have any info, but because he didnt want to give it. If a scaring is all he got then lucky him. If the interrogation techniques were no good then bad on the interrogator. they go on a wild goose chase and maybe they fail to save lives. I have no sympathy for the enemy combatant.

quote:

Unless your drill instructor would do things like: Woke you up in the middle of the night, marched you out of the building in your skivvies and then pulled out a pistol, lead you to an empty marching field, forced you to kneel as he placed the gun against your head and then gave a speech explaining exactly why he's loving tired of your bullshit, and then fired the gun past your ear before laughing and slapping you on the back and telling you to make sure that your laces are done right over left instead of the other way around. Unless your drill instructor did stuff like that, you weren't getting 'scared' on the same level as Mr. Hamoodi.

except for the gun part you were not far off from the truth. If I fought in WW2 and was captured by the nazis/Russians Id be grateful for nothing more than some shooting that didnt strike me. This guy had info they wanted, he didnt want to give it because he knew ultimately we wouldnt do anything to him. For a moment he thought he had miscalculated how far we would go. He still didnt tell us what we wanted to know which is why you dont use techniques like that.

quote:

Nah, I've got your back. Muslims are terrible people and I am scared of them too! Torture is all in the eye of the beholder, and I could give a gently caress what the U.N. considers torture. Europeans are the coolest, but only the white ones.

torture is in the eye of the beholder. When your life consists of working behind a desk and watching tv then pretty much all of war is torture. When your at war things look different. From sitting in a foxhole in the cold, without food, sleep, no psychological safety. The moments of shooting. Death, beatings, rape. In that theater of the world stage some mean spirited tricks to get info dont really register very strongly.

quote:

In case you can't tell, I'm being facetious you ignorant jackass. It is pretty telling that you're in the military, as you can't write a proper sentence to save your life

I was just going to ignore that last post after the bit where you admit that you're scum and you accept that, but I have to point this out, because it's so bewildering.

you know whats sad, is you attack me. You attack my grammer(this is the net one small step up from texting not AP English class right?). I wont do the same to you. And just like there are zealous conservatives who will attack things they dont like. There are zealous liberals who attack things. Im a liberal, but I dont attack. Just remember that your not perfect either. Im sure you have prejudices too, maybe buried down where you wont address them. Maybe youve got some weird fetish.

Im here laying bare something I know isnt popular in an honest way. Im doing it here because theres no point going to a conservative forum with this stuff. And luckily there are others not like you. Who will be able to have a real discussion about this. A discussion that focuses on real facts about how my emotions arent validated.

This forum is generally pretty good at giving citations so lets do that. Show me how muslims arent more violent to a higher degree than other groups. Im looking for proof that (made up numbers coming up) 1% of muslims are terrorists and 1% of christians are terrorists. See, no difference

.5% of muslims rape their woman/children but 2% of christians do, see christians are actually worse.

These are the kinds of things Im looking for. Stuff that I can intellectually overcome my emotional response towards muslims that I believe are probably wrong.

Ive looked myself, but perhaps my prejudice is keeping me from making honest inquiries on the net because I havent found much. There are people here who have gone round and round on this issue and maybe even have bullets ready to fire off.

Whats not useful is comments about how its muslim extremists who are the terrorists and not the general muslim population so dont judge them by that. I KNOW its the extremists, but theres too many off them for my tastes. And the general population is not very friendly either. I need something more concrete. Because my anecdotal evidence has me leaning against muslims.

It may be hard to believe but Im pretty solid liberal. Voted Obama, watch colbert report, hate most of the conservative stuff. Stupid conspiracy emails sent out by my step dad, disagree with tea party stuff, dont like palin etc etc.

Im pretty reasonable I think. Im making a real effort and giving an opportunity for reasoned debate to actually change my mind...and Im sure you guys know how often people change their views. Usually they just seek out information that supports their world view....I am not doing that here.

quote:

I think the main problem we are experiencing here is that you feel that Muslims happen to be inherently violent. Yet you can express the why. Much in the same way Allen West is expressing himself. He is just sure that the others are violent. Do you see how this maybe a problem?

absolutely I see how that is a problem. Ive met Americanized muslims who are just doing their good citizen duty. Working, paying taxes, raising a family. I work with MANY of them. I treat them nice, their nice to me. And deep down I dont trust them and thats wrong.

At the same time Ive seen first hand the Middle east Muslims(hell even the European ones are rough) who are surrounded by the muslim culture in a way the American muslims arent. Those are the majority, those leave a much stronger impression. And its not a good one.

Not everything in this world is equal, some things are bad. And theres no inherent reason why muslims get a free pass as good citizens of earth simply because its the good liberal thing to do if too big a percentage of their population is really doing some serious poo poo.

quote:

I think it's more of a "I have emotional reactions that I just can't turn off, even though I know they're not based in fact, West probably has it even worse"

There's basically been a negative advertisement campaign against Muslims for decades, doubly since 9/11. It shouldn't be a mystery why someone might have irrational beliefs on the subject

yes, exactly. Facts would really help, and I would listen to the facts. Lets put together our own pro muslim campaign that I can learn from. And arm myself against the anti muslim rhetoric I encounter.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:17

WampaLord: Jan 14, 2010

davidb posted:

You attack my grammer(this is the net one small step up from texting not AP English class right?).

Ignoring the rest of your :downswords:

didn't we drop this argument in like 2003? Doesn't take a ton of effort to spell and makes your points sound more intelligent.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:24

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

davidb posted:

what do I do with this information?

They are all non-Muslim terrorist groups who have blown up buildings and derailed trains and killed many people. I guess you could alter your beliefs with that information. Will you?

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:31

xarph: Jun 18, 2001

Not shown: the wildly varying fonts and formatting as each person edited the last paragraph to add their spin:

quote:

How's that "Hope and Change" thing working for you?

Two years ago Barack Obama was inaugurated as president of the United States.
Are you better off today than you were two years ago?
Numbers don't lie, and here are the data on the impact he has had on the lives of Americans:
code:
January 2009    TODAY   % chg   Source
Avg. retail price/gallon gas in U.S.
$1.83           $3.104  69.6%   1

Crude oil, European Brent (barrel)
$43.48          $99.02  127.7%  2

Crude oil, West TX Inter. (barrel)
$38.74          $91.38  135.9%  2

Gold: London (per troy oz.)
$853.25      $1,369.50  60.5%   2

Corn, No.2 yellow, Central IL
$3.56            $6.33  78.1%   2

Soybeans, No. 1 yellow, IL
$9.66           $13.75  42.3%   2

Sugar, cane, raw, world, lb. fob
$13.37          $35.39 164.7%   2

Unemployment rate, non-farm, overall
7.6%              9.4%  23.7%   3

Unemployment rate, blacks
12.6%            15.8%  25.4%   3

Number of unemployed
11,616,000  14,485,000  24.7%   3

Number of fed. employees, ex. military (curr = 12/10 prelim)
2,779,000    2,840,000   2.2%   3

Real median household income (2008 v 2009)
$50,112        $49,777  -0.7%   4

Number of food stamp recipients (curr = 10/10)
31,983,716  43,200,878  35.1%   5

Number of unemployment benefit recipients (curr = 12/10)
7,526,598    9,193,838  22.2%   6

Number of long-term unemployed
2,600,000    6,400,000 146.2%   3

Poverty rate, individuals (2008 v 2009)
13.2%            14.3%   8.3%   4

People in poverty in U.S. (2008 v 2009)
39,800,000  43,600,000   9.5%   4

U.S. rank in Economic Freedom World Rankings
5                    9    n/a   10

Present Situation Index (curr = 12/10)
29.9              23.5 -21.4%   11

Failed banks (curr = 2010 + 2011 to date)
140                164  17.1%   12

U.S. dollar versus Japanese yen exchange rate
89.76            82.03  -8.6%   2

U.S. money supply, M1, in billions (curr = 12/10 prelim)
1,575.1        1,865.7  18.4%   13

U.S. money supply, M2, in billions (curr = 12/10 prelim)
8,310.9        8,852.3   6.5%   13

National debt, in trillions
$10.627        $14.052  32.2%   14
Sources:
(1) U.S. Energy Information Administration; (2) Wall Street Journal; (3) Bureau of Labor Statistics; (4) Census Bureau; (5) USDA; (6) U.S. Dept. of Labor; (7) FHFA; (8) Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller; (9) RealtyTrac; (10) Heritage Foundation and WSJ; (11) The Conference Board; (12) FDIC; (13) Federal Reserve; (14) U.S. Treasury

Just take this last item: In the last two years we have accumulated national debt at a rate more than 27 times as fast as during the rest of our entire nation's history.

Over 27 times as fast! Metaphorically, speaking, if you are driving in the right lane doing 65 MPH and a car rockets past you in the left lane 27 times faster . . . it would be doing 1,755 MPH! This is a disaster!

I didn't feel like fact-checking (which would have been impossible since they left titles out of their sources), so I just replied with "Arbitrarily chosen numbers say my life is miserable; I'll get right on that."

The person who forwarded this to me knows I'm making 35K more per year in salary, have lower insurance premiums, and zero debt since Jan 2009 so I don't know what they were hoping to accomplish with this...

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:32

Ninja_Orca: Nov 12, 2010; by hoodrow trillson

davidb posted:

Americanized

I dislike this term immensely. "They're okay, but only because they're 'Americanized'." Like it's akin to domestication or something. What is that even supposed to mean? I thought that America was, in idea, supposed to be all inclusive for the most part. Are we now having some sort of ideal American? Can you help me quantify what an ideal American is? See if you can get down to skin tone, just as specific as possible.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:32

davidb: Apr 11, 2007; by XyloJW

quote:

RE: Your irrational fear of Muslims

There's a religious fundamentalist group in Northern Uganda that has since spread to other countries. They bomb and attack civilian targets, they go to churches and massacre those at mass, they rape and pillage and kidnap.

They are Christian and this is happening now.

People do terrible things when they are placed in poor conditions (economically, physically, mentally). You have an irrational hatred or fear of muslims. Your fear is unfounded.

I don't understand because presumably you know this. There is no reason for you to dislike muslims. You know it's wrong yet you profess these ideas anyway. You're the one who controls this perception.

That uganda thing is good, are we talking 20 people or what? Do we have more like that. Is there even information available about violence rates for muslims? Because that would be really interesting to me.

I do presumably know I shouldnt fear muslims. But I do, because they do things that are bad and its muslims and I hear about it. Often. And their aggressive when your in their lands. And they hate us whenever I see them on TV. Its usually large groups of people as in taking part in a mob/protest.

quote:

Finally, your CDC analogy is really bad

can you elaborate why?

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:35

davidb: Apr 11, 2007; by XyloJW

quote:

I dislike this term immensely. "They're okay, but only because they're 'Americanized'." Like it's akin to domestication or something. What is that even supposed to mean? I thought that America was, in idea, supposed to be all inclusive for the most part. Are we now having some sort of ideal American? Can you help me quantify what an ideal American is? See if you can get down to skin tone, just as specific as possible

their ok because their ok with our culture. At least to the point where I dont see American scum written on their expression when they talk to me. Not sure what your trying to say about their skin color.

Their all pretty brown. Does that answer your question?

quote:

They are all non-Muslim terrorist groups who have blown up buildings and derailed trains and killed many people. I guess you could alter your beliefs with that information. Will you?

I might, theres a limit to how fast I can read and respond.

quote:

Ignoring the rest of your didn't we drop this argument in like 2003? Doesn't take a ton of effort to spell and makes your points sound more intelligent

back in 2003 you say? huh, guess you didnt send out the email to everyone. Is there an internet committee that decides these things? Is there a problem with my spelling? Are my points hard to understand? or are you just nitpicking so you have one more angle to grind my down with?

# ? Feb 25, 2011 00:43

Foyes36: Oct 23, 2005; Food fight!

davidb posted:

back in 2003 you say? huh, guess you didnt send out the email to everyone. Is there an internet committee that decides these things? Is there a problem with my spelling? Are my points hard to understand? or are you just nitpicking so you have one more angle to grind my down with?

No offense, but at least I'm having a legitimately hard time reading your posts. It hurts my eyes and my head to translate what you're saying. Is English your first language (legit question)? Part of the reason I like these forums so much are the typically strict requirements for proper spelling and grammar. I don't think anyone's being too pedantic here, just asking for a bit of effort.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 01:00

Dr. Arbitrary: Mar 15, 2006; Bleak Gremlin

davidb posted:

At least to the point where I dont see American scum written on their expression when they talk to me.

What countries were the people who looked at you like scum in? It's likely that they disapprove of your presence for reasons completely unrelated to religious beliefs.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 01:04

davidb: Apr 11, 2007; by XyloJW

English isnt my first language but I dont think thats the reason your having a hard time reading my posts. At this point enough people have commented on my writing style that I will make an effort to make it clearer.

The country of scum looks was bahrain and Germany. Both could be military scum looks. Bahrain more than germany. But for instance, Italy and greece didnt give me scum looks even with the military excuse

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:07

Craftics: Jan 31, 2006; fuckin yeah

Just got this gem from the book

quote:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

* The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
* The fifth would pay $1.
* The sixth would pay $3.
* The seventh would pay $7.
* The eighth would pay $12.
* The ninth would pay $18.
* The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that�s what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. �Since you are all such good customers,� he said, �I�m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.� Drinks for the ten now cost just $80 total.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men � the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his �fair share?� They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody�s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man�s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

* The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
* The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
* The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
* The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 ( 25% savings).
* The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
* The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

�I only got a dollar out of the $20,� declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,�but he got $10!�

�Yeah, that�s right,� exclaimed the fifth man. �I only saved a dollar, too. It�s unfair that he got ten times more than I!�

�That�s true!!� shouted the seventh man. �Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!�

�Wait a minute,� yelled the first four men in unison. �We didn�t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!�

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn�t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn�t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

I like the last line especially; tax the wealthy too much and they may go overseas where taxes are...higher? :confused:

Craftics fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Feb 25, 2011

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:26

Amarkov: Jun 21, 2010

Craftics posted:

Just got this gem from the book

I thought the entire point of tax reductions was that Average Joe benefits just as much as everyone else. Is "haha, tax cuts screw the poor" supposed to be a message in SUPPORT of tax cuts somehow?

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:32

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Craftics posted:

I like the last line especially; tax the wealthy too much and they may go overseas where taxes are...higher?

Presumably they would do all business from the Cayman Islands, because every industrialized nation has higher tax rates than this one (in practice; in THEORY we do have quite a high corporate tax rate!)

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:37

Dr Christmas: Apr 24, 2010; Berninating the one percent,
Berninating the Wall St.
Berninating all the people
In their high rise penthouses!
🔥😱🔥🔫👴🏻

Craftics posted:

Just got this gem from the book

I like the last line especially; tax the wealthy too much and they may go overseas where taxes are...higher?

This was posted in some other thread, I can't remember where, and someone suggested a better ending was the rich guy paying the poor guys to beat each other up, or the rich guys getting an expensive import while the poor get to inhale the alcohol fumes from the rich's urine.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:38

SmuglyDismissed: Nov 27, 2007; IGNORE ME!!!

Craftics posted:

Just got this gem from the book

I like the last line especially; tax the wealthy too much and they may go overseas where taxes are...higher?

Oh god, I never knew... Putting it in story form opened my eyes!

Now they need to do one for Payroll Taxes, Sales Tax, Licencing Fees, and fixed suvival costs. I bet the rich guy gets hosed there too!

No matter how many times this drat thing gets debunked, it just keeps coming back.

e: Also, I love the ending too. What happened to American Exceptionalism? Or does that only apply to stuff like dadt?

SmuglyDismissed fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Feb 25, 2011

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:38

Fearless_Decoy: Sep 27, 2001; You shall all soon witness the power of my Tragic 8-Ball!

davidb posted:

torture is in the eye of the beholder. When your life consists of working behind a desk and watching tv then pretty much all of war is torture. When your at war things look different. From sitting in a foxhole in the cold, without food, sleep, no psychological safety. The moments of shooting. Death, beatings, rape. In that theater of the world stage some mean spirited tricks to get info dont really register very strongly.

No.
Torture is not subject to interpretation. It is clearly defined by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the United Nations Convention Against Torture, the Geneva Conventions, and other international treaties that the United States signed.

We're supposed to be the good guys, we're supposed to treat prisoners like human beings. Even if we're in a War on Terror with no real defined end, we have rules we have to follow.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:39

JerkyBunion: Jun 22, 2002

davidb posted:

That uganda thing is good, are we talking 20 people or what? Do we have more like that. Is there even information available about violence rates for muslims? Because that would be really interesting to me.

I do presumably know I shouldnt fear muslims. But I do, because they do things that are bad and its muslims and I hear about it. Often. And their aggressive when your in their lands. And they hate us whenever I see them on TV. Its usually large groups of people as in taking part in a mob/protest.

can you elaborate why?

The Ugandan army estimates 500-1000 members. However, other estimates put the number at 3000-9000 having forced upwards of 10k child soldiers into service during their reign of terror. There's no solid body count that I can find but upwards of several thousand wouldn't be a bad guess. But all this is beside the point, because I was just saying everyone does terrible stuff.

Your CDC argument was bad because, while I don't know all the details about West's story (nor does he, apparently), presumably he didn't let the man go free so how did his interrogation prevent the attack? On the other hand, preventative tactics to fight the spread of disease can have a real and demonstrable effect.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:40

Harold Fjord: Jan 3, 2004

Craftics posted:

Just got this gem from the book

I like the last line especially; tax the wealthy too much and they may go overseas where taxes are...higher?

This is hilarious because it acts like the rich and the poor man have remotely the same opportunities.

If it remotely resembled reality the poor men would get water, maybe some lemonade, the middle guys get beer and the rich guy drinks scotch, a lot of scotch. And has a hamburger. And spills on everyone else constantly.

Also rich man tips the bartender and starts getting free drinks

# ? Feb 25, 2011 02:44

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# ? May 10, 2024 09:51

JerkyBunion: Jun 22, 2002

This probably makes no sense and I would imagine is riddled with problems. I wrote it up anyway. What do you think:

quote:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If their bar experience was analogous to the American experience, it would go something like this:

*The first four men (the poorest), who make $10/day when they can get day labor, pay a non-refundable cover not considered part of the tab and are sent from waitress to waitress to bartender to waitress. Finally, the bar security kicks them out into the street after only a shot is split between them. They pay $5 in cover/person.
*The fifth, sixth, and seventh men, whose union jobs are constantly under attack by outsourcing and conservative attacks and only pay $25/day, all paid a non-refundable cover to enter the bar. It's not considered part of the tab but to complain about it would seem "cheap" and jeopardize their chances to get a job with the tenth man. They pay $6, $8, and $12 total, respectively. They each have a beer a piece, but can't drink too much or they'll be late for their second job.
*The eighth and ninth men own their own businesses and are seeking venture capitol from the tenth man. They make $200/day. They write off their tabs, $17 and $23 respectively, to their expense accounts. They have a few cocktails.
*The tenth man received his start while living comfortably on a considerable fortune he inherited from his father, makes roughly $11,000/day but he doesn't know for sure because even without an income his family's fortune would be enough for him to live comfortably as a man of leisure. He pays $59 of the tab. He knows the door guy, having got him his job, and pays no cover. He could afford it of course, but it would make him look "common." The tenth man orders several high dollar cocktails and imports. When he tastes each one and desides he doesn't like it, he pours it out and orders a different one.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner, Barkeep Bush threw them a curve. �Since you are all such good customers,� he said, �I�m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.� Drinks for the ten now cost just $80 total.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men � the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his �fair share?� They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody�s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. The owner, who owed much of his success to the tenth man, suggested instead that they give $18 to the tenth man, and $1 respectively to the 8th and 9th. After all, it was through their good graces that we simple folk were allowed to operate anyway.

And so:

* The fifth man, like the first four, now paid $5 a piece.
* The sixth still pays $8..
* The seventh still pays $12.
* The eighth now paid $16 instead of $17.
* The ninth now paid $22 instead of $23.
* The tenth now paid $41 instead of $59.

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

When they realized they were still paying the same amount, the 7 men approached the other 3, calmly with hat in hand, embarrassed at the hard times they'd fallen on. After all, a man shouldn't have to ask for charity.
The 8th, 9th, and 10th men were appalled at being asked to give up a bit of money to help their fellow man. The 10th man calls his friend, the assistant prosecutor, to whom he had made sizable contributions, and had the first four men arrested on trumped up charges. Then he instructed the 8th and 9th men to lay off the 5th, 6th, and 7th men, and he would bankroll the shipping of that factory overseas. The 8th and 9th men would make money in the end, although they would owe a considerable amount to the 10th.

The next night, the first seven men don't show up at the bar. The first four are in prison. The 5th, 6th, and 7th are out searching for a new job or perhaps a "retraining" class. The bar is packed because the bar owner has announced his campaign for high office. The 10th man has bankrolled the new campaign and encouraging his friends to contribute as well.

The tenth man is driven away that night. On the way, his accountant calls him to notify him that he's received $300 in his share of profits from the bar that his off shore company owns He has his accountant set up the raid and acquisition of the 8th and 9th man's companies. Life is good.

As a footnote, the only women in the bar were prostitutes and waitresses. Minorities were also present, but they were working in the kitchen.

The cover charge represents rich privilege. It made no sense "paying" the richest so instead I fined the others.

# ? Feb 25, 2011 03:34

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