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The French Army! posted:This is a weird question. How hard is it to break into a prison to free someone as opposed to breaking out of one? It's pretty trivial to break into any prison without something stupid like automatic electronic monitoring of prisoners. That would be a completely retarded way of helping someone get out, because having a person who isn't even supposed to be there in the first place just increases the number of ways you can get caught (what happens when a guard comes and tells your guest it's time for roll call?)
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Feb 22, 2011 08:42
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PTBrennan posted:Prison is for retribution and punishment. Retribution and punishment never rehabilitate, it breeds more anger and contempt.
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Feb 22, 2011 08:58
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quote:Just quickly, by this do you mean that the prison system as it currently is in the USA is purely retributive and not at all constructive, or are you ideologically opposed to the idea of prison (no matter how hard it genuinely tries to be rehabilitative) because you think it's an inherently retributive concept? Just the American version of "Prison". I fully believe it's possible to have a "Prison" system where all "criminals" are patients serving "time" until they are able to return to society as a functioning citizen. Best Mental Health Care available, drug detox, medications, etc. Anything this individual needs to get back on their feet and back into society. These people are a product of our society and not going away. No one is born "evil", these behaviors/attitudes are either learned through life experiences/trauma (or lack of life experience) or is a result of some sort of mental/gene defect and need to be treated. If you don't treat the person, they will never get better. If all you do is condemn the "criminal" for their actions, instead of trying to help them change their ways and show them a better life, why on earth would they do anything else but condemn you back? Ninja Edit: This concept is only partially the solution. If they are treated and sent back into the same living conditions/socio-economic conditions that led to his or her prior condition, while the new treatment will help him or her cope with the life and look at it differently while trying to better themselves and get out, I fully believe the person, under those certain conditions on a long enough time scale, will eventually break down and succumb to his or her environment. It's only natural for you to change your behavior/mind set to suit your environment in order to survive. PTBrennan fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Feb 22, 2011 |
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Feb 22, 2011 15:55
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So i'm watching one of those lockdown tv shows on discovery channel and I saw something that bothers me alot (the whole show does to be honest) Men caught with porn get extra disciplinary write ups. This doesn't make sense to me at all. Wouldn't you want men to not have pent up sexual frustration? As a woman I guess i'm weird in that I don't give a poo poo about porn. If i'm riding the red wave I don't have a problem with my partner using porn. You know - I actually bet violence in prisons would go down if masturbation was encouraged. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Feb 24, 2011 |
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Feb 24, 2011 03:36
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Tigntink posted:So i'm watching one of those lockdown tv shows on discovery channel and I saw something that bothers me alot (the whole show does to be honest) Men caught with porn get extra disciplinary write ups. This doesn't make sense to me at all. Wouldn't you want men to not have pent up sexual frustration? As a woman I guess i'm weird in that I don't give a poo poo about porn. If i'm riding the red wave I don't have a problem with my partner using porn. Several reasons, the main ones being: It's a form of currency (this is the main reason). It creates a hostile work environment for staff. Some wardens are religious (especially in the South). Try winning an election by being "the governor who lets inmates have Playboys."
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Feb 24, 2011 05:31
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HidingFromGoro posted:It creates a hostile work environment for staff. I can't tell if you are stating this as a fact or saying that it's simply used as a false justification for prohibiting porn (maybe both?). If pornography in prisons really does create a hostile environment for staff in what ways does this manifest itself? Does the presence of porn increase hostility to female staff or all staff in general? Your other points regarding pornography make complete sense.
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Feb 24, 2011 09:12
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Just how different are the minimum security facilities in comparison to what we've seen in this thread?
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Feb 24, 2011 10:26
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Instant Sunrise posted:Just how different are the minimum security facilities in comparison to what we've seen in this thread? Those are reserved for rich criminals and play by different rules altogether? As a serious answer, much of the same strategies are used in minimum security settings. Plus, more and more prisoners are being placed in high security and super-max prisons (ie. minimum security is dying out). HidingFromGoro posted:Several reasons, the main ones being: The currency argument is a crock of poo poo. Rather than make the currency more valuable by banning it, why not flood the prison with it? Can't swap a Playboy for a shanking if the other inmate already has enough porn to fuel his fantasies. Similarly, I would think restricting access to sexual imagery would make staff's lives harder. Instead of perusing the latest centerfold, inmates would be more interested in looking down the shirt of every female employee in sight. This also turns back to the currency idea: devalue Playboys and they stop being a limited commodity over which inmates fight. Wardens are "wardens", not priests. It's a prison, not a church. Their own religious views should have no effect and they should not be allowed to implement religious policy. I'm still shocked every time restricting print media comes up in regards to prisons. I assume it is a fundamental right that prisoners can receive any periodicals they wish to pay for. And finally, I hate our political system that values electability over effective policy. I know you're not supporting these reasons, but merely stating why porn is restricted (from the idiots' point of view). So I'm not attacking you, HFG, just the stupidity that you highlight. Many thanks for this thread and your keeping this topic on-the-air.
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Feb 24, 2011 16:14
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anonumos posted:I'm still shocked every time restricting print media comes up in regards to prisons. I assume it is a fundamental right that prisoners can receive any periodicals they wish to pay for. You win some- CDCR settles lawsuit involving blocking inmates from recieving paid-subscription monthly publications You lose some- Supreme Court rules that prisons can withhold newspapers quote:In a concurring opinion, Justices Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia said courts have no business second-guessing state officials' decisions on prison operations. Nor, they said, should courts force states to accommodate inmates by providing substitutes for the rights taken away.
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Feb 24, 2011 22:18
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Doughbaron posted:I can't tell if you are stating this as a fact or saying that it's simply used as a false justification for prohibiting porn (maybe both?). If pornography in prisons really does create a hostile environment for staff in what ways does this manifest itself? Does the presence of porn increase hostility to female staff or all staff in general? Not hostile in the prison sense but in the "workplace harassment" sense (at least in AZ). For example if you and me worked in an office and I had the February issue of "Amazing Penetrations" and it offended you, that would be creating a hostile environment if I had it out, even if I wasn't intentionally putting it on your desk to harass you. You have the right (on paper at least) to work in a non-hostile environment so that means our boss has a responsibility to prevent me from bringing it in. Those employee rights and employer responsibility also apply to prisons & guards. That's the line of reasoning AZDOC uses. Instant Sunrise posted:Just how different are the minimum security facilities in comparison to what we've seen in this thread? It depends on the facility, some of them are the "Club Fed" type white collar stuff, like the one where the hacker or whatever doing a short sentence for computer stuff just walked away from it (and then killed a couple people). Other minimum security places run into problems with violence because of understaffing or mismanagement- Arpaio's Tent City is technically minimum security.
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Feb 24, 2011 22:23
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Okay, prison labor. It seems that one can be of two minds about it: on the one hand, idleness does seem to fuel the violent culture of incarceration; on the other hand, it's clearly tantamount to slavery and opens the door for massive exploitation. And it seems the practice is growing. This Times article paints a pretty rosy picture, not addressing horrors like Angora's farms and such. I await WFG's verdict.
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Feb 25, 2011 17:06
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SinetheGuy posted:Okay, prison labor. It seems that one can be of two minds about it: on the one hand, idleness does seem to fuel the violent culture of incarceration; on the other hand, it's clearly tantamount to slavery and opens the door for massive exploitation.
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Feb 25, 2011 18:09
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Seems counterproductive. We want jobs in America, but not to pay the people for the jobs. Create more criminals! edit* I love that article. It costs a lot to incarcerate someone, so uh... instead of NOT throwing them in prison for crimes that are mostly not violent, lets make them into slave labor! Thats the solution! FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 18:40
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ratbert90 posted:Seems counterproductive. We want jobs in America, but not to pay the people for the jobs. They can pay for their own train ticket.
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Feb 25, 2011 18:54
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ratbert90 posted:Seems counterproductive. We want jobs in America, but not to pay the people for the jobs. And in an utterly corrupt society (y'know, like ours), in which the large institutions that benefit from nearly free labor also wield political capital which could be expended on further incarceration... You can see where I'm going with this.
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Feb 25, 2011 19:18
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SinetheGuy posted:And in an utterly corrupt society (y'know, like ours), in which the large institutions that benefit from nearly free labor also wield political capital which could be expended on further incarceration... Are there any prisoner unions?
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Feb 25, 2011 19:23
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anonumos posted:Are there any prisoner unions? They're called gangs I believe. Any formal internal organization is broken up for security though there are a few prisoner's rights groups.
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Feb 26, 2011 02:06
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HidingFromGoro posted:It's a form of currency (this is the main reason). Cigarettes are used as currency and banning them in prison makes the currency more valuable. "It'll be used as currency" is a terrible reason to ban it. http://www.nctimes.com/news/state-and-regional/article_cda5de7c-ab74-5340-a207-3559a3e3c8c3.html
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Feb 26, 2011 02:53
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I hope someone never points out to prison administrators that currency can also be used as currency. And not only do we let inmates have it, we actually have them work to get it.
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Feb 26, 2011 03:02
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Hobologist posted:I hope someone never points out to prison administrators that currency can also be used as currency. And not only do we let inmates have it, we actually have them work to get it. No you can't have actual cash in prison, it goes on your books and when you buy things from the canteen or phone cards or whatever it just gets deducted. Some places have cards, some places just use a ledger at the store, other places use individual sign-up sheets.
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Feb 26, 2011 03:42
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HidingFromGoro posted:No you can't have actual cash in prison, it goes on your books and when you buy things from the canteen or phone cards or whatever it just gets deducted. Some places have cards, some places just use a ledger at the store, other places use individual sign-up sheets. I know, but there has to be a lively trade in canteen items and so forth.
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Feb 26, 2011 04:07
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anonumos posted:Are there any prisoner unions? No (unless you count gangs like baquerd said). SinetheGuy posted:Okay, prison labor. It seems that one can be of two minds about it: on the one hand, idleness does seem to fuel the violent culture of incarceration; on the other hand, it's clearly tantamount to slavery and opens the door for massive exploitation. Jobs are important in prison, they help pass the time and they're good for the routine. Using inmate labor to make a buck on the outside, though? No, gently caress all that. Such as when BP used inmates to do the most dangerous work in cleaning their oil spill, didn't adequately train or protect them, and didn't pay them at all- on top of using each inmate as a tax dodge... yeah not so much. I had a few jobs when I was in prison, and washing dishes gets dull and picking up trash at gunpoint sucks- but at at least we weren't covered in toxic chemicals. Same thing with the UNICOR stuff where the inmates were coated in so many toxic heavy metals that even the guards started getting cancer just being around them (and the work site was next to a day care).
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Feb 26, 2011 04:25
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Hobologist posted:I know, but there has to be a lively trade in canteen items and so forth. Yeah there is, and in places like county jail dorms where everyone gets canteen, there's even a kind of "stock market" where things cost different amounts of credit (the inmate's own self-contained credit system, not the jail's) depending on the day of the week (i.e. how far away store day is). I've been in county units where everything is on ledgers, and all the people who started the book are long gone, it's just like this perpetual system of virtual debt/credit that makes the whole thing go round, kind of like stock markets etc in the free world. On Jurassic Park they said "life finds a way." I guess behind bars capitalism finds a way, too.
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Feb 26, 2011 04:29
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HidingFromGoro posted:Using inmate labor to make a buck on the outside, though? No, gently caress all that.
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Feb 26, 2011 04:31
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Hobologist posted:I know, but there has to be a lively trade in canteen items and so forth. There's also a lively extortion and sex-slave market based on coffee packets and ramen noodles too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4_uvvcaDqw note, that documentary is heavily edited and presents a pretty distorted view of various issues; I'm only posting it to show the extortion angle of canteen items.
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Feb 26, 2011 04:32
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s0meb0dy0 posted:Yeah, this is disgusting. Here you go, pretty basic, but a good intro to prison labor and for-profit incarceration if you want to introduce someone who's new to prison issues.
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Feb 26, 2011 04:35
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Tigntink posted:So i'm watching one of those lockdown tv shows on discovery channel and I saw something that bothers me alot (the whole show does to be honest) Men caught with porn get extra disciplinary write ups. This doesn't make sense to me at all. Wouldn't you want men to not have pent up sexual frustration? As a woman I guess i'm weird in that I don't give a poo poo about porn. If i'm riding the red wave I don't have a problem with my partner using porn.
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Feb 26, 2011 11:24
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Yes, but America is the land of the free, not your godless commie country. That's why we had to take away their porn. Serious: I wonder how much of the "TOUGH ON CRIME HURR" attitude is the result of Republicrat fearmongering about THEM coming to get little Timmy? If you started to point out better ways of keeping people safe (like rehabilitation so the reasons to commit crimes don't come back) you could probably get a fair few people on board. Call it getting smart on crime and that solves the branding issue. Gadaffi Duck fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Feb 26, 2011 |
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Feb 26, 2011 11:57
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Madman Theory posted:Yes, but America is the land of the free, not your godless commie country. That's why we had to take away their porn. If you call it "smart on crime", your political opponent will call it "soft on crime" and say he's "tough on crime" and he'll know that it'll only harm you. People would rather vote for Dumb and Tough on crime than Smart and Soft on crime.
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Feb 26, 2011 14:52
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21stCentury posted:If you call it "smart on crime", your political opponent will call it "soft on crime" and say he's "tough on crime" and he'll know that it'll only harm you. I'm Tough on Crime. I think we should do everything in our power to stop and prevent crime in this country. Things are just out of control. We can do that by forcing prisoners to become good, productive, moral citizens after they're released. Forced rehabilitation programs should be mandatory in some circumstances. We can force them to learn the value of a hard days work at minimum wage, and hold their money until they've earned their freedom. Etc. Etc. The problem I think is that no one marries liberal policies with conservative rhetoric. Conservatives only care about what their politicians say, and would hear "tough on crime". Liberals only care about what their politicians do, and would see "rehabilitation". s0meb0dy0 fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 26, 2011 |
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Feb 26, 2011 20:21
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s0meb0dy0 posted:Then call it Tough on Crime. I don't know if buying into conservative rhetoric is really such a good idea.
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Feb 26, 2011 21:19
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Orange Devil posted:I don't know if buying into conservative rhetoric is really such a good idea. Same thing with Health Care Reform. If that was approached as a cost cutting measure (which everyone can get behind) and "oh, by the way, you'll have better healthcare as well" things may have gone differently.
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Feb 26, 2011 21:33
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Republican rhetoric is largely immaterial, the oligarchs controlling the parties would not allow passage of these measures no matter what language you used, the mind boggles at the simplistic RED TEAM VS BLUE TEAM WE NEED A NEW PLAYBOOK analysis. The prison industrial complex lines the right pockets in the right places, and furthers the agenda of control, so it will not be altered.
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Feb 26, 2011 22:45
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s0meb0dy0 posted:Even if it gets things passed? I mean, we all seem to agree that things can't get better because of "tough on crime" poo poo, so why not subvert "tough on crime"? The problem with that is that, no matter how you try to sell it, rehabilitative prison will inevitably lead to people saying "look at that! Prisoners get money for their work! That money ought to go to the victims!" or "The government is controlling the healthcare! Death panels are going to kill your grandma!" You can't sell a rehabilitative prison system to people who think the only thing that convicts should enjoy is rape. No more, No Less. Anything that is not a punishment, anything that is comparable to what "free, law-abiding citizen" can do will be pointed out as proof that the system is "soft on criminals". There's no way to sell "Treating criminals like human beings" to people who believe that treating criminals like animals is already too good forthem.
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Feb 27, 2011 00:18
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s0meb0dy0 posted:Even if it gets things passed? I mean, we all seem to agree that things can't get better because of "tough on crime" poo poo, so why not subvert "tough on crime"? Yeah hey if it gets (good) things passed then by all means. What I'm saying though is, I'm not at all convinced that buying into Republican rhetoric will get anything good passed.
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Feb 27, 2011 01:39
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FL- Rick Scott pushes for prison privatization.quote:Scott also wants to privatize the state's three remaining public mental hospitals, three centers for the developmentally disabled and six veterans' homes, for a savings of $103.9 million. quote:Three companies with lobbyists in Tallahassee have reaped lucrative contracts by taking over state prisons and mental hospitals. One Boca Raton company, GEO Group, manages two of the state's seven private prisons and four of its seven mental-health facilities.
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Feb 27, 2011 04:04
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I have massive problems with the idea of prisons being run for profit by private enterprise. But mental hospitals, too? That's beyond morbid. Mental hospitals are there to help the most desperately needful members of society, they should never be run for profit. It's sickening. It's monstrous. EDIT - To clarify, I don't have problems with private mental health clinics. Removing public facilities altogether is what I have problems with. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Feb 27, 2011 |
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Feb 27, 2011 05:05
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Gorilla Salad posted:I have massive problems with the idea of prisons being run for profit by private enterprise.
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Feb 27, 2011 05:26
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s0meb0dy0 posted:Then call it Tough on Crime. There is 10%+ unemployment in the US right now, if prisoners got minimum wage people would be going to jail intentionally.
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Feb 27, 2011 17:01
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Rutibex posted:There is 10%+ unemployment in the US right now, if prisoners got minimum wage people would be going to jail intentionally. That's not necessarely bad though. It'll expose more people to the horrible prison conditions, hopefully changing their minds about how a prison ought to be run (this happened in the Netherlands after WW2) and it also puts a further strain of overcapacity on an already creaking system, possibly causing it to break. It might force a discussion on welfare and what the role of prisons ought to be (ie. stop sending all those non violent drug offenders to prison for decades). I'll grant you that it's a long shot, but I don't think it's a good reason to oppose minimum wage for prison labour.
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Feb 27, 2011 17:26
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