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davidb posted:
I just wanted to point out that according to the Wiki article on West quote:The suspect's home was searched, but no plans for attacks or weapons were found. West testified he did not know if "any corroboration" of a plot was ever found. He added: "At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi There was never any evidence that there was a planned ambush. If you believe that since West staged the mock execution and this guy told them about a plan for one and so it never materialised and that was the reason why then I have a wonderful tiger repelling rock to sell you. I've had it for years and have never seen so much as a stripey tail. Alternatively you'd realise that when people are placed under severe stress (physical or mental) they will do anything in order to be relieved of it. This is what separates torture from interrogations in a functional respect, torture aims to get someone to say something they don't want to regardless of the reasons (i.e. they don't want to or legitimately don't know). Interrogations seek to get people to reveal information they have. The fact that in this case the methods don't leave any visible scars doesn't mean that it was a simple interrogation. It's quite possible this was a guy who had either pissed off the wrong people or had just spoken out against the interim government in Iraq and got grabbed by US soldiers who convinced him they were going to kill him if he didn't tell them about an ambush. So he told them about a loving ambush, any ambush he possibly could because even if they were going to kill him for lying he'd get another few hours. Also I'd love you expound your theory on why Islam is inherently more violent and prone to acts of terrorism than other religions to the people of Northern Ireland. They're a people naturally given to mirth.
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Feb 26, 2011 00:16
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But, guys, look at all the good things that can be done when you torture people! You can get them to confess to crimes and turn over their co-conspirators and it's probably never going to end horribly.
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Feb 26, 2011 13:33
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quote:But, guys, look at all the good things that can be done when you torture people! You can get them to confess to crimes and turn over their co-conspirators and it's probably never going to end horribly. does police coercion count as torture? I know that people confess to stuff they didnt do. I just cant understand why they do it when simply stressed by confrontational cops. Im not confessing to anything unless your doing serious stuff like cutting off my fingers, ripping out nails, burning crap quote:There was never any evidence that there was a planned ambush. If you believe that since West staged the mock execution and this guy told them about a plan for one and so it never materialised and that was the reason why how did the guy end up being interrogated? Maybe his boss at the police station didnt like him. But until shown otherwise Im going to assume there was good reason to believe an ambush was planned and he had information about it. A more believable story to me is that that the police station boss turned him over(or however he ended up in our custody) for bragging about an ambush or something along those lines. quote:Also I'd love you expound your theory on why Islam is inherently more violent and prone to acts of terrorism than other religions to the people of Northern Ireland. They're a people naturally given to mirth to start with Muslims carry out terrorist attacks around the world. In europe, in the middle east, in the US, in Asia. The rage against western countries. They treat woman like poo poo. On a level I dont see other religious groups. IRA terrorist activities were more contained in scope. Shorter lived in duration. And are not currently active.
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Feb 26, 2011 23:08
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davidb posted:\ Try checking out the Murrah bombing sometime. Or look up "abortion clinic bombings". Christian terrorists are very real, and their actions have taken American lives. And let's not even get into how some of them interpret the Bible in order to get women to 'behave'.
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Feb 26, 2011 23:22
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davidb posted:does police coercion count as torture? I know that people confess to stuff they didnt do. I just cant understand why they do it when simply stressed by confrontational cops. Im not confessing to anything unless your doing serious stuff like cutting off my fingers, ripping out nails, burning crap Don't say what you will or won't do till you're in the situation. Otherwise it's just Internet Tough-guy talk. davidb posted:how did the guy end up being interrogated? Maybe his boss at the police station didnt like him. But until shown otherwise Im going to assume there was good reason to believe an ambush was planned and he had information about it. A more believable story to me is that that the police station boss turned him over(or however he ended up in our custody) for bragging about an ambush or something along those lines. So you're just making tings up out of whole cloth to fit with your version of reality? davidb posted:to start with Muslims carry out terrorist attacks around the world. In europe, in the middle east, in the US, in Asia. The rage against western countries. They treat woman like poo poo. On a level I dont see other religious groups. When you say "they treat women like poo poo" who exactly are you talking about? Albanians, Egyptians, Turks, Pakistanis, Phillipinoes, Afghans, Uzbeks, Persians, Russians, Americans, who? Because there are Muslims and Christians in all of those populations. You might as well say "Hispanics treat women like poo poo, or Italians treat women like poo poo, or the Irish treat women like poo poo, or black people treat women like poo poo." Do you realize how ignorant is sounds to lump all the followers of a religion together like that? davidb posted:IRA terrorist activities were more contained in scope. Shorter lived in duration. And are not currently active. http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local/were_provos_behind_shooting_incident_in_gobnascale_1_2104759 Or how about all the domestic terrorists in the US? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States There are an awful lot of "Christian" groups in there. Btw, what did you do in the Army?
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Feb 26, 2011 23:31
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davidb posted:IRA terrorist activities were more contained in scope. Shorter lived in duration. And are not currently active. January 8 2010. Randalstown, Northern Ireland. A PSNI officer was wounded when a bomb exploded underneath his car in Randalstown, County Antrim. June 17 2010. Aughnacloy, Northern Ireland. Dissident republicans were believed to be responsible for a 300 lb van bomb that was left outside a police station in the town of Aughnacloy. The bomb was defused. June 22 2010. Keady, Northern Ireland. A bomb was found inside a beer keg in Keady. The Army made the bomb safe. It is believed that the bomb was planted there to ambush police on 18 June as a number of fires were started. July 10 2010. Belleeks, Northern Ireland. A bomb exploded on a stone bridge in South Armagh. No one was injured or killed in the attack. August 2 2010. Derry, Northern Ireland. A car bomb explodes outside PSNI station. August 4 2010. Bangor, Northern Ireland. A bomb was found under a soldier's car in Bangor. The army carried out a controlled explosion. No one was killed or injured in the attack. It come a day after a car bomb exploded at a police station in Derry August 10 2010. Cookstown, Northern Ireland. A car-bomb partially exploded under a PSNI civilian worker's car. He escaped uninjured. Nearby residents, a creche and a supermarket were evacuated until the device was made safe. August 14 2010. Lurgan, Northern Ireland. Three children are injured when a "no-warning" bomb exploded in a bin, in what the PSNI claim was an attempt to "kill police or injure police officers providing a service to this community as they responded to a neighbouring area following a very vague warning that a device had been left at a local school. October 4. Derry, Northern Ireland. A carbomb left by the Real IRA explodes outside an Ulster Bank branch, injuring two police officers and causing extensive damage.
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Feb 26, 2011 23:39
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davidb posted:how did the guy end up being interrogated? Maybe his boss at the police station didnt like him. But until shown otherwise Im going to assume there was good reason to believe an ambush was planned and he had information about it. A more believable story to me is that that the police station boss turned him over(or however he ended up in our custody) for bragging about an ambush or something along those lines. That's basically the "Just world" rationalization you're using there. You're making up a story that "He probably bragged about an ambush/used anti-American rhetoric/did something bad and that's why he deserved what happened to him" because you can't believe that some American prick captured him without any proof of wrongdoing and tortured him for false information. I don't know what really happened, but I don't think you were there and know what happened either. You need to accept that bad things sometimes happen to good people and that sometimes, good people do bad things to good people. No one "deserves" to be tortured (or have "enhanced interrogation techniques" used on them). That's why there are numerous treaties and international laws against torture. It is a war crime, you know.
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Feb 26, 2011 23:47
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davidb posted:does police coercion count as torture? I know that people confess to stuff they didnt do. I just cant understand why they do it when simply stressed by confrontational cops. Im not confessing to anything unless your doing serious stuff like cutting off my fingers, ripping out nails, burning crap You're wrong, and beliefs like this are one of the reasons false confessions are so difficult to deal with: despite mountains of evidence people insist on ignoring it and believing it can't happen.
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Feb 26, 2011 23:55
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quote:You're wrong, and beliefs like this are one of the reasons false confessions are so difficult to deal with: despite mountains of evidence people insist on ignoring it and believing it can't happen I said that I know false confessions happen. I just cant believe people are that weak and stupid. quote:That's basically the "Just world" rationalization you're using there. You're making up a story that "He probably bragged about an ambush/used anti-American rhetoric/did something bad and that's why he deserved what happened to him" because you can't believe that some American prick captured him without any proof of wrongdoing and tortured him for false information. The guy was in our custody because he supposedly had information soldier takes harsh action to get information when detainee doesnt give info After informatoin is given no ambush happens. And theres no launch ambush here map found at address so... People here are making up stories that the guy was inoccent Im countering with a made up story about how he wasnt inoccent. Since none of us were there. And the soldier was. Im going to trust the soldiers instincts that the guy had info to give. The way he talks to the interrogators, his demeanor, attitude etc. are all things that would contribute to that. Maybe the soldier is just an rear end and had no reason to do what he did. But Im not starting with that premise. I would have to get there. quote:No one "deserves" to be tortured (or have "enhanced interrogation techniques" used on them). That's why there are numerous treaties and international laws against torture. It is a war crime, you know some people do deserve to have enhanced interrogation techniques used on them. Like combatants in a war zone. So for sure shooting a gun near a guys head is mock execution and torture by geneva rules? @ Z magic- thanks, I didnt realize IRA was still active. quote:Don't say what you will or won't do till you're in the situation. Otherwise it's just Internet Tough-guy talk In a face to face discussion I would also say that I would not confess to crimes I didnt commit. Full confidence on that. quote:When you say "they treat women like poo poo" who exactly are you talking about? Because there are Muslims and Christians in all of those populations The ones in the middle east. Do the christians from that part of the world stone their womam, behed, assume the woman screwed up when raped? quote:You might as well say "Hispanics treat women like poo poo, or Italians treat women like poo poo, or the Irish treat women like poo poo, or black people treat women like poo poo." Do hispanics, black, irish and Italian men stone and behed their woman? quote:Do you realize how ignorant is sounds to lump all the followers of a religion together like that? It would be ignorant if I said ALL followers of a religion did something. I said that percentage wise, they got more crap going on. So were good to go, no ignorance here. quote:Or how about all the domestic terrorists in the US? interesting. I need some time for it to sink in. I wonder what percentage of christians would fall into that group. Compared to percentage of muslims who are into terrorist stuff. quote:Try checking out the Murrah bombing sometime. Or look up "abortion clinic bombings". Christian terrorists are very real, and their actions have taken American lives. And let's not even get into how some of them interpret the Bible in order to get women to 'behave and they have comfy lives so dont have an excuse to kill their own people. At least muslims arent killing their neighbors when they bomb stuff. Ok Im getting there...
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Feb 27, 2011 00:32
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davidb posted:I said that I know false confessions happen. I just cant believe people are that weak and stupid. It's not about being weak or stupid. You'd have a good chance of cracking too.
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Feb 27, 2011 01:06
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if its not about being weak and stupid. Then what determines if a person cracks? Purely the skill of the coercive police officer?
davidb fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Feb 27, 2011 |
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Feb 27, 2011 01:36
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I know it doesn't explain in the article I posted very well, but "police coersion" was basically the police stomping on the suspect's balls and threatening to kill their family members until they confessed. edit: Download and listen to Gerry Conlon talk about getting his balls crushed and his mother threatened here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00dx324 Grem fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Feb 27, 2011 |
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Feb 27, 2011 02:48
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ah, thats quite significantly worse. And I can understand signing papers under those conditions.
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Feb 27, 2011 02:51
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Your full confidence sure faded quickly, I'm proud of you 
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Feb 27, 2011 02:57
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my full confidence is in referance to coercion. The kind of thing that got 5 sailors to sign confessions simply because they were yelled at. Stomping on balls is a bit of a different story.
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Feb 27, 2011 07:11
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So I read a lot of extreme right/left political blogs, and it takes a lot to shock me, but something I saw today was pretty upsetting.quote:Thug woman in Denver follows in her husband's footsteps. What kind of mind can possibly think that a voting record is relevant in ANY WAY to accidentally dragging a person to their death and then driving away. Has the discourse got this bad? Kubrick fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Feb 27, 2011 |
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Feb 27, 2011 07:16
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Kubrick posted:Has the discourse got this bad? Glenn Beck and his ilk have hundreds of nutjobs convinced that Code Pink holds influence on the international stage and are playing an active role in what's going on in Egypt. You tell me.
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Feb 27, 2011 08:11
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davidb posted:my full confidence is in referance to coercion. The kind of thing that got 5 sailors to sign confessions simply because they were yelled at. Stomping on balls is a bit of a different story. If you listen to the interview what finally got a confession was a face to face conversation, no stomping involved.
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Feb 27, 2011 14:39
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davidb posted:might, theres a limit to how fast I can read and respond Am I to take it that the information has still not been processed by your brain? That's impressive
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Feb 27, 2011 15:14
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Im not sure, I dont get a ding when its done processing. I guess it would be done cooking when I agree with all your views? It may never be done then. But knowing that theres a decent list of terrorist groups in the US. That regular schmucks with no hardships will kill their own at abortion clinics. And that the IRA is still active helps. Im not sure what to do with the african christians who were tossed a bible from a plane. Who are now committing genocide on the rival tribe.
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Feb 27, 2011 16:12
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davidb posted:Im not sure what to do with the african christians who were tossed a bible from a plane. Who are now committing genocide on the rival tribe. What? Really?
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Feb 27, 2011 19:58
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not really?
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Feb 27, 2011 21:25
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davidb posted:not really? Did that really happen or are you making things up?
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Feb 27, 2011 23:15
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crime fighting hog posted:Did that really happen or are you making things up? He's trying to imply that their faith isn't the motivating factor. They might not literally have bibles that were tossed out of a plane but he is coyly saying that they haven't been heavily schooled by any major Christain organization. No true Christian would go off killing people, right? It may not be intentional as it is a common cognitive bias to see members of your ingroup as having seperate causes for their bad deeds. Outgroups, on the other hand, sour their entire membership by commiting the same acts.
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Feb 27, 2011 23:42
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quote:Did that really happen or are you making things up? making things up. Thinking along the lines of missionaries ditributing bibles by boat. Spending little time with the groups. And only getting cooperation from the population because they bring food and medicine too. Then flitter off to the next tribe. quote:He's trying to imply that their faith isn't the motivating factor. They might not literally have bibles that were tossed out of a plane but he is coyly saying that they haven't been heavily schooled by any major Christain organization. No true Christian would go off killing people, right? christians do killing, the abortion clinic bombings are my new go to on that. But also wako and crazy stuff like that. What Im saying is that if the African people go off killing religion isnt factored heavily into their actions. Not like abortion clinic bombings by christians. Or many of the muslim actions.
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Feb 28, 2011 02:14
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davidb posted:What Im saying is that if the African people go off killing religion isnt factored heavily into their actions. Not like abortion clinic bombings by christians. Or many of the muslim actions. Except for say... the Lord's Resistance Army? Or the Christian Tarok militias in Nigeria?
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Feb 28, 2011 02:24
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It's not as if Christian missionaries have only been operating in Africa for the past few years. Even if there isn't so much missionary action going on these days (which I don't think is the case), this is something that's been happening for the past few centuries.
laughterhouse five fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Feb 28, 2011 |
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Feb 28, 2011 02:28
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davidb, what you really need to understand is that some people are assholes regardless of religion, race, nationality or gender. It's easy to point fingers and go "Muslims are all misogynistic, violent murderers who sacrifice brave Americans to their moon god", but the fact is, A) Of course there's a lot of Muslim insurgents in a country where the majority of the people are muslim and feel invaded by a foreign power and B) You can find probably as many assholes in any given group, proportionally. Some people do bad things. That includes torturing someone for false information just because he happens to look suspicious.
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Feb 28, 2011 02:32
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quote:what you really need to understand is that some people are assholes regardless of religion, race, nationality or gender. It's easy to point fingers and go "Muslims are all misogynistic, violent murderers who sacrifice brave Americans to their moon god", but the fact is, A) Of course there's a lot of Muslim insurgents in a country where the majority of the people are muslim and feel invaded by a foreign power and B) You can find probably as many assholes in any given group, proportionally. Fair enough on points A) and B). When I think about my prejudice for muslims it has nothing to do with whatever insurgant actions they take while we are in their country. And I know you can find assholes in every population. But I find their form of assholeness particularly annoying. The way they treat their woman in general is worse than most any culture I can think of. While west has their wife beaters, south america, Asia and Africa the men are dominant socially. But they dont hide their woman in house prisons. No talking to men outside the family. Hide behind a carpet when walking around. Stoning, beheading, poor treatment in the case of rape. And my gut says they are physically more abusive to their woman. I find it annoying how they take offense and lash out at other cultures while being so generally reprehensible in my eyes. by offense I mean wishing harm upon other countries(down with America stuff) by lash out I mean bombing crap around the world I am sensing a change in perception(in myself) thanks to information about the terrorist activities performed by other groups. The Nigerians killing rivals, Christians killing their own at abortion clinics. The IRA blowing up the UK. None of these seem as offensive as Muslims going after everyone. I mean, no one is off limits to these guys. They'll bomb in Asia, middle east, Europe and US. So why cant they chill more? What makes them so asseholish to so many? I have a hard time quite getting to where they are no worse than anyone else. As much as Americans dont like Muslims. Its worse in Europe. Heck it might be worse in the middle east. Sometimes I think they dont like each other even more. Sunnis vs Shiites for example. davidb fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Feb 28, 2011 |
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Feb 28, 2011 03:33
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davidb posted:I find it annoying how they take offense and lash out at other cultures while being so generally reprehensible in my eyes. I hope you understand that you're doing basically just that. Taking offense and lashing out at other cultures while being generally reprehensible in their eyes. You might not be blatantly wishing harm upon the middle eastern countries, but the American Military is more or less doing that whole "bombing" thing now and has been doing so for at least 10 years in Afghanistan and Iraq in the context of the "war on terror". As for "muslims going after everyone", again that's very much lumping many different groups into one big group. Muslims aren't bombing everyone everywhere, it's that people who bomb happen to be muslim. By the exact same logic, you can say that Christians all around the world kill people for not being puritanical enough on all continents save for Antarctica since the Vatican was founded. it's lumping so many things together that it's just completely inaccurate. As for why Americans hate muslims so much? 3 things: 1) They're obvious. They don't look "white". 2) They don't worship Jeezus. 3) A group consisting of Muslim men exploited the lax defense and showed how easy it was to hit America right in the face. So it's a combination of obvious foreign qualities and spite.
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Feb 28, 2011 03:54
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davidb posted:my gut says Thanks for this great post keep up the good work!!!
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Feb 28, 2011 04:44
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quote:I hope you understand that you're doing basically just that. Taking offense and lashing out at other cultures while being generally reprehensible in their eyes. taking offense- yes reprehensible- yes lashing out- no quote:You might not be blatantly wishing harm upon the middle eastern countries, but the American Military is more or less doing that whole "bombing" thing now and has been doing so for at least 10 years in Afghanistan and Iraq in the context of the "war on terror". Id be more apt to accept that if they hadnt been bombing stuff for longer than that. As long as I can remember. quote:Muslims aren't bombing everyone everywhere, it's that people who bomb happen to be muslim I dont follow the logic quote:By the exact same logic, you can say that Christians all around the world kill people for not being puritanical enough on all continents save for Antarctica since the Vatican was founded. at one point christians were in the same league as Muslims are now. So give them more time to catch up morally? quote:As for why Americans hate muslims so much? 3 things: 1) They're obvious. They don't look "white". 2) They don't worship Jeezus. 3) A group consisting of Muslim men exploited the lax defense and showed how easy it was to hit America right in the face. Budhists are generally yellow/brown. They dont worship jeezus. they arent bombing anyone. Im totally cool with my Indian, black and asian friends. So I dont think Im particularly sensitive to color. I think its great that mexicans come here to work. My parents and I are immigrants. My dislike of muslims is purely their treatment of woman and attacking people around the world. I just dont see anyone else doing it right now. Is there anyone disputing that muslims constitute the largest percentage of terrorism currently in the world? If controlled for the size of the population does it fall back in line? Or is it that most muslims are low income. Like how blacks are a bigger percentage of crime in the US?
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Feb 28, 2011 05:06
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quote:Thanks for this great post keep up the good work!! good job picking on 3 words and making a useless reply about it. Keep up the good work yourself.
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Feb 28, 2011 05:08
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davidb posted:Or is it that most muslims are low income. This here makes me think that you really just don't know much about terrorism in general. Muslim terrorists tend to be middle class with good educations.
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Feb 28, 2011 05:11
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There are good people. There are bad people. Sometimes they are on opposite sides.
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Feb 28, 2011 05:23
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oh right, that is something I read in this topic but it slipped my mind since until then I thought it was the more troubled of the population who are doing this. So even worse, its the people who have more going for them. Who have the means to devote time for 1) getting sucked into the idealogy that makes you want to suicide bomb 2) organize/train too bad, at least with the poor I can sympathise on some level.
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Feb 28, 2011 05:33
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davidb posted:Id be more apt to accept that if they hadnt been bombing stuff for longer than that. As long as I can remember. The modern history of "Islamic" terrorism is often routed in occupation. As far as I'm aware, modern Islamic terrorism, for the US, started with the truck bombing of a Marine bunker in Beirut, Lebanon in Also, here's a list of terrorist activities carried out or supported by the United States. I haven't verified that list, of course; it's a very, very long list. It goes way further back than 1983. Also, according to an FBI report, of all terrorist attacks against the United States between 1985 and 2005, only 8% were Islamic in origin. [Has the argument over that been settled yet? Am I allowed to bring that chart up, or is that going to start another bitch-fest about Puerto Rican nationalists and mailboxes?] Edit: I kind of understand where you're coming from with all this. My brother and I were both raised in an extremely open and tolerant household. Since he's been back from Iraq, I can tell he's uncomfortable with the idea of Muslims. Still the sweetest guy, but I can tell he's got some resentment and anger he's struggling to come to terms with; intellectually, I'm sure he knows you can't judge an entire ethnic/social group by wartime experiences. But it's hard. XyloJW fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Feb 28, 2011 |
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Feb 28, 2011 07:12
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XyloJW posted:Upon meeting with the Taliban who were at the time using plenty of terrorist tactics against our enemy Russia, President Ronald Reagan said they were the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers. Maybe that's not so far out there? Rich, educated people leading an insurgency to get a foreign power out of their country. He was actually talking about the Contras, not that that makes it any better.
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Feb 28, 2011 08:25
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davidb posted:
What 'league' is this? Do you think every muslim is a terrorist wifebeater?
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Feb 28, 2011 09:52
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Fishstick posted:What 'league' is this? Do you think every muslim is a terrorist wifebeater? He has stated that he does. I got into this with a friend on Facebook the other day. He posted "Islam is a bunch of satanic garbage" and then made the comment that liberals will disagree and they should be shot with the Muslims. I unfriended him.
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Feb 28, 2011 11:25
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