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I'm still not convinced we will see the Subaru badged version in the US. Subaru has spent waaaaay too much time marketing the fact that their entire lineup is AWD that I don't see them releasing a RWD car here.
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Mar 1, 2011 17:10
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Coredump posted:I want more than anything for this car to come out and kick rear end. I really do. I've always wanted to see what the benefits of having a flat four in a FR configuration would do. Its just after all I've heard this car going through I'm not too hopeful on how it will come out. Please let me be wrong. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2973186&pagenumber=176&perpage=40#post388689012 Mr. Wiggles posted:I estimate a bit more style than substance, since it's coming in as a Scion and is supposed to act as their halo car. Of course, that might be good since Scion is always trying to push superchargers on their tC buyers and what not.
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Mar 1, 2011 17:34
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bull3964 posted:I'm still not convinced we will see the Subaru badged version in the US. Subaru has spent waaaaay too much time marketing the fact that their entire lineup is AWD that I don't see them releasing a RWD car here.
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Mar 1, 2011 18:55
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tonedef131 posted:Last I heard the defining difference between the two was that the Yota would be RWD and the Subaru AWD...has this changed? This was never case other than a bunch of people wishing it was so. This was a RWD project from the get go.
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Mar 1, 2011 18:59
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If you look at the model I linked, the end of the motor seems to clear where axles would be to drive the front wheels, which is retarded if you're planning to be RWD only. That makes me double take on whether or not there'll ever be a AWD version. Still, what a terrible place for the boxer motor.
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Mar 1, 2011 19:11
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bull3964 posted:I'm still not convinced we will see the Subaru badged version in the US. Subaru has spent waaaaay too much time marketing the fact that their entire lineup is AWD that I don't see them releasing a RWD car here. Autoblog posted:It's worth noting that the automaker has confirmed for the first time here at the 2011 Geneva Motor Show that the upcoming production version of this sports car is coming to America. The engine sure looks like it's back too far to use a traditional Subaru transmission for conversion to AWD. It'd have to have a setup like the GTR.  edit: here, even better 
DEUCE SLUICE fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Mar 1, 2011 |
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Mar 1, 2011 19:36
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Did they choose the boxer engine just to make it really difficult to service? What would the problem be with using a big displacement four cylinder or the high-revving 1.8L from the old Celica GT-S?
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Mar 1, 2011 19:57
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:The engine sure looks like it's back too far to use a traditional Subaru transmission for conversion to AWD. It'd have to have a setup like the GTR. RWD, naturally aspirated engine. Just change the flat 4 to an inline and it's no longer a Subaru at all. It seems to me that Toyota, dissatisfied with merely destroying their own brand equity, wishes to ruin Subaru's as well.
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Mar 1, 2011 20:10
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Subaru is the one that went to Toyota with the idea, though? It's going to be interesting to see how much power the new gen 2.0 boxer gets with direct injection, what the gas mileage is like, and how quickly it works its way into the new Subarus getting the next gen motor. It was surprising that it isn't in there from the start.
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Mar 1, 2011 20:16
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Well the placard is certainly confusing: http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/ga...ure+12.JPG.html 
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Mar 1, 2011 20:25
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quote:Masuda is so optimistic about the sports car's potential, he instructed the engineering team to use the Porsche Cayman as a performance benchmark. That'd be about 2700 lbs. If the 200-hp number that was thrown around before is right, that wouldn't be bad at all provided the chassis is as tossible as expected.
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Mar 1, 2011 20:31
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:That'd be about 2700 lbs. If the 200-hp number that was thrown around before is right, that wouldn't be bad at all provided the chassis is as tossible as expected. I like Alfa Romeo's concept better  http://www.insideline.com/alfa-romeo/alfa-romeo-4c-concept-2011-geneva-auto-show.html  Click here for the full 717x478 image. Weighs almost 1000 lbs. less than the Toyobaru and will likely make more power, too.
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Mar 1, 2011 20:39
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kimbo305 posted:Going by the clear glass model of the component layout, if anything, the boxer is not doing anything for weight distribution: drat. I usually don't like to see engines tucked up under the cowl of a car but if the line at the base of the "windshield" is supposed to be where the firewall hits then it looks like they could have moved the engine back some. I wonder if they could move the wheels up anymore. I would think a flat four would be the easiest engine to make front mid engined and they hosed it up. Well at least it will help with the center of gravity and keep it low.
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Mar 1, 2011 20:46
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Holy crap. http://jalopnik.com/#!5773410/the-tornante-absolves-gumpert-of-past-designs/gallery/1 New Gumpert. 
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Mar 1, 2011 20:47
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Interesting about them confirming that it's coming to the US.PBCrunch posted:Did they choose the boxer engine just to make it really difficult to service? All other things being equal, an H4 pretty much has to have both a lower and further back center of gravity than an I4 in a FR configuration. It also looks like the EJ25 and the 2ZZ-GE weigh almost exactly the same (and I believe the new FB engines are supposed to be lighter), so packaging changes would be helpful. Whether or not it's enough to affect performance remains to be seen.
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Mar 1, 2011 21:00
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A5H posted:Holy crap. I prefer the old one. That poo poo is uglier than jalopnik
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Mar 1, 2011 21:10
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Taaaaaaarb! posted:I like Alfa Romeo's concept better It will also cost somewhere north of $50k "I would really rather have an S4 than an Impreza." Look at how dumb that sounds. The reason that they're using a Subaru motor is that Toyota doesn't have any federalized FR 4-cylinder motors. With the Subaru motor you just rip out all the front drivetrain stuff, but the motor is already configured to work in a longitudinal layout. Also platform sharing costs are reduced, and the 2ZZ-GE would have to be revised for current federal emissions standards (as well as being transverse-only at present.)
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Mar 1, 2011 22:01
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Taaaaaaarb! posted:I like Alfa Romeo's concept better It will cost three times as much and break down ten times as much.
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Mar 1, 2011 22:01
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A5H posted:Holy crap. They had two companies hired to design the body -- Noble designed the front end and Bentley designed the back end.
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Mar 1, 2011 22:06
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el topo posted:They had two companies hired to design the body -- Noble designed the front end and Bentley designed the back end. Who designed the doors?
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Mar 1, 2011 22:08
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I really love it. It's excited me more than anything else I've seen lately.
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Mar 1, 2011 22:09
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Hog Obituary posted:Well the placard is certainly confusing: Arg, this is driving me nuts. Doesn't it look like, in the front on picture, that the engine is tucked behind the front line of the wheels? Or from this angle?: http://i.imgur.com/Zb6Wd.jpg Note the length of the engine vs the space to the front bumper. And then in the top down picture: http://i56.tinypic.com/15fp4av.jpg it really looks like the engine is moved back a few inches, giving massive space to the bumper and leaving room for reality like radiator, etc. Maybe the body shapes are different and it's two different models?
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Mar 1, 2011 22:15
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They are two different physical models if you look at the surroundings. Notice the white floor surrounding the one with the placard while it is absent on the other pictures on this page. http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/gallery.php/v/main/auto-shows/2011-geneva-auto-show/subaru/boxersportscar/ It's possible that the one with the placard is slightly different generic version of the platform. http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/ga...ure+08.JPG.html If you take a look at that image, you can see the one with the placard is a small scale model in a display case. Look at the background of the SUV. The blue tinted one is full scale and likely more representative of what the final will be. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Mar 1, 2011 |
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Mar 1, 2011 22:38
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bull3964 posted:It's possible that the one with the placard is slightly different generic version of the platform. Explains a lot, and is a solid refutation of Jalopnik's coverage on the AWD situation.
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Mar 1, 2011 22:54
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anonumos posted:Who designed the doors?
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Mar 1, 2011 23:32
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Where the hell did you go to school where the Doors were part of the curriculum? I had to learn about them from my dad and Kids in the Hall.
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Mar 2, 2011 01:08
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The H4 engine also has the disadvantage of being wide, which cuts into space for suspension, and having more turbo-lag in turbo form due to the distance and placement of the turbo vis a vis the exhaust. We talked about this in the last thread. For a performance car it really only makes sense if it's in the middle/rear like a Boxster. The only advantage of this layout is that you can also easily make the car FWD. 
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Mar 2, 2011 01:48
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Throatwarbler posted:The H4 engine also has the disadvantage of being wide, which cuts into space for suspension, and having more turbo-lag in turbo form due to the distance and placement of the turbo vis a vis the exhaust. We talked about this in the last thread. For a performance car it really only makes sense if it's in the middle/rear like a Boxster. It's not a turbod vehicle, so I don't think turbo lag is a problem. How in the hell are you supposed to make that layout FWD?
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Mar 2, 2011 02:00
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bull3964 posted:It's not a turbod vehicle, so I don't think turbo lag is a problem. You could probably turn the engine 90° and fit a transmission/halfshafts, but that would probably be a huge pain and why the hell would you do it in the first place. Has toyota/subaru announced pricing on these yet? If I could get a 2 door liftback for less than the price (in CAD) of a WRX I'd be all over that. 200hp/???tq/2700lbs could be pretty great, considering the genesis 2.0t weighs as much (if not more) than a WRX.
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Mar 2, 2011 02:14
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bull3964 posted:It's not a turbod vehicle, so I don't think turbo lag is a problem. I meant Subaru/Audis in general. That particular one looks quite a ways back but Audi does stuff like put the front half shafts in front of the clutch that can make it work.
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Mar 2, 2011 02:16
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Crustashio posted:You could probably turn the engine 90° and fit a transmission/halfshafts, but that would probably be a huge pain and why the hell would you do it in the first place. You would have to do more than that though because you would have to either raise the engine up too far or move it forward in the engine bay too far. The overhead shots of the platform have just about killed any possibility that you can simply connect up halfshafts from the side of the transmission to the front wheels. Throatwarbler posted:I meant Subaru/Audis in general. That particular one looks quite a ways back but Audi does stuff like put the front half shafts in front of the clutch that can make it work. Subaru would never do that though. Coming out with a RWD car is one thing, they simply would not abandon the symmetrical layout because that's the cornerstone of everything. Hell my car even has a symmetrical badge on the back of it.
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Mar 2, 2011 02:17
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bull3964 posted:You would have to do more than that though because you would have to either raise the engine up too far or move it forward in the engine bay too far. The overhead shots of the platform have just about killed any possibility that you can simply connect up halfshafts from the side of the transmission to the front wheels. Look at a cutaway of the Audi RS5. You'd be surprised how far back the engine can be taken. quote:Subaru would never do that though. Coming out with a RWD car is one thing, they simply would not abandon the symmetrical layout because that's the cornerstone of everything. Hell my car even has a symmetrical badge on the back of it. I'm not sure what you mean. A large percentage, if not the majority, of Subaru cars are FWD. People need to be reminded that Toyota makes a shitload of RWD cars, both in the past and present. Right now they have a compact RWD car (the IS, which is the same size as an Impreza and smaller than the Corolla IIRC), 3 or 4 midsize RWD cars (GS, Mark X, Crown, probably more that I'm forgetting), a MR supercar and a RWD flagship. You think they can't afford to drop a 4 banger in an IS and take out the leather and HIDs? Because that would be a perfectly good RWD sports car and much better than this flat 4 engine business. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Mar 2, 2011 |
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Mar 2, 2011 02:29
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Throatwarbler posted:
Not in the US. Subaru hasn't made a FWD car for this country for almost 20 years. Besides, I can't see the point in them making this chassis to convert the drivetrain to FWD when they can just as easily do that with the current impreza by lopping off the rear driveshaft. What market would they be trying to capture with a FWD version of this chassis that they couldn't with a RWD version?
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Mar 2, 2011 02:42
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bull3964 posted:Not in the US. Subaru hasn't made a FWD car for this country for almost 20 years. Most Subarus aren't sold in the US. quote:Besides, I can't see the point in them making this chassis to convert the drivetrain to FWD when they can just as easily do that with the current impreza by lopping off the rear driveshaft. What market would they be trying to capture with a FWD version of this chassis that they couldn't with a RWD version? Most Imprezas aren't sold in the US and most Imprezas sold are FWD as you describe. A large percentage, if not a majority, of Audi A8s sold are also FWD. The US market has a peculiar snobbery about their car drivetrains that the rest of the world doesn't share. The conclusion from the last thread we had on this was that no one could come up with a good reason why this car is as they described, and that it was probably vaporware dreamed up by Subaru fanboys who didn't understand cars very well.
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Mar 2, 2011 02:49
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Throatwarbler posted:People need to be reminded that Toyota makes a shitload of RWD cars, both in the past and present. Right now they have a compact RWD car (the IS, which is the same size as an Impreza and smaller than the Corolla IIRC), 3 or 4 midsize RWD cars (GS, Mark X, Crown, probably more that I'm forgetting), a MR supercar and a RWD flagship. You think they can't afford to drop a 4 banger in an IS and take out the leather and HIDs? Because that would be a perfectly good RWD sports car and much better than this flat 4 engine business. The IS is still bigger than a Corolla, at least externally (so is an Impreza sedan for that matter). The issue with the IS that its a heavy car, not just because it has a load of luxury stuff but because it shares a platform with the bigger RWDs (GS, Mark X, Crown etc). I don't think there is any way to take enough weight out of it to put it where this new coupe is supposed to be positioned.
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Mar 2, 2011 02:50
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Throatwarbler posted:Most Imprezas aren't sold in the US and most Imprezas sold are FWD as you describe. A large percentage, if not a majority, of Audi A8s sold are also FWD. The US market has a peculiar snobbery about their car drivetrains that the rest of the world doesn't share. The conclusion from the last thread we had on this was that no one could come up with a good reason why this car is as they described, and that it was probably vaporware dreamed up by Subaru fanboys who didn't understand cars very well. Where is Subaru selling FWD Imprezas? Its not the UK, or Europe, or Australia, or Japan, or North America where does that leave? Preemptive edit: Yes I know you CAN get a 2WD Impreza in Japan but I'm pretty sure most of them sold are actually AWD. dissss fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Mar 2, 2011 |
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Mar 2, 2011 02:54
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Crustashio posted:You could probably turn the engine 90° and fit a transmission/halfshafts, but that would probably be a huge pain and why the hell would you do it in the first place. If too many high school girls wipe out their new tCs. Which won't happen because, as a new car, it will have hellacious DBW and TCS mechanisms. bull3964 posted:You would have to do more than that though because you would have to either raise the engine up too far or move it forward in the engine bay too far. The overhead shots of the platform have just about killed any possibility that you can simply connect up halfshafts from the side of the transmission to the front wheels. Again, if we take anything from the plastic models, it's that it's possible the bodywork can be stretched to accomodate driving the front wheels. I'm not sure how much smaller that car would be than an Impreza, but it might be worth rolling that model out, eventually.
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Mar 2, 2011 03:19
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Throatwarbler posted:
As dissss pointed out, it appears the only market that has a 2wd Impreza on sale is Japan. Hell, the Impreza comes standard with AWD even in Russia. So, unless 2wd Impreza sales in Japan are greater than the entire rest of the world combined, this isn't a true statement. Again though, there doesn't seem much point in reworking this design to make it capable of driving the front wheels. The car is going to be niche enough as it is, I don't think they are going to try to capture the tiny segment that goes "I really like the body style, but it could use more FWD."
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Mar 2, 2011 03:39
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bull3964 posted:As dissss pointed out, it appears the only market that has a 2wd Impreza on sale is Japan. Hell, the Impreza comes standard with AWD even in Russia. Think about it a bit more. If it's not true it's very close, because Subaru has very little market presence outside of Japan compared to the other Japanese car makers. The US is the largest and accounts for about 1/3 of its total sales, but the Impreza is a pretty poor seller in the US and only makes up about 15% of total US sales. The only other market of note outside of Japan is China and I can assure you that Impreza sales here are negligible - probably 99% of their sales are Forester and Legacy Outback. I have seen more Ferraris here in China than Imprezas, and that includes the ones in the Subaru dealership I go to for service. This is broadly true in markets outside of Western Europe and Japan (maybe Australia too but Australia isn't bit enough to matter) - no one outside of these markets buys expensive small cars in any appreciable numbers, Imprezas are relatively expensive small cars and Subaru isn't really that big in Western Europe. So where does that leave? I would not be surprised one bit if FWD Impreza sales in Japan outnumbered AWD Impreza sales globally. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Mar 2, 2011 |
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Mar 2, 2011 03:59
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I've been pondering the idea of the "20%" reduction in the STi weight - is there even another affordable sporty car that is under 3000lb? All I can come up with is miata and cooper S.
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Mar 2, 2011 04:02
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