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wraithgar posted:Please explain exactly how you got to step one. It helps if you've done some rear-end awareness exercises already. Most animals don't understand that their back legs can move separately from their front. Step one is the hardest step. I laid a hardcover book on the floor against a wall. The dog was standing up against the wall with her back end facing the book (just a few inches away) and me on her other side. This was so she couldn't accidentally veer off to the side. I then slowly shaped her backing up until one of her feet hit the book (you can press a treat into your dog [or cat]'s face/chest to encourage them to take that first step back). Then I raised my criteria to two feet. Once that clicked, I moved the book away from the wall and worked on her backing up onto it from various angles. It seems kind of simple in the retelling, but it felt like it took FOREVER. She kept wanting to target the book with her front paws (I'd taught her this previously). Then she kept veering off to one side or the other. THEN she started turning around and walking forward to the book then turning around to target it with her back feet, etc. I kept having to switch up my approach. So if you find something that works better for you, run with it. There's a hundred ways to skin a cat. What really seemed to cement the behaviour was working on the stairs. Once she'd figured out the gist of it I moved her to a staircase and shaped her lifting her paws up onto the stairs. Fun side effect: I now have a dog who will walk up a flight of stairs in reverse.  Edit: Here's a video that explains it better than me (bonus points if you speak Spanish). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi1qYOQfWPM Note she was having the same problem with backing up past then fixing position, so she used some furniture to block as needed. a life less fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Feb 28, 2011 |
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Feb 28, 2011 21:53
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Sweet jebediah jesus, that's impressive. Wow. Every time I see one of Cohen's videos I feel a little less adequate hahah. Very awesome. I should try some rear-end awareness with Asa...she forgets she has anything resembling an rear end and rear-end some days...and she swings it around a lot :P
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Feb 28, 2011 22:34
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 I taught my doggy to play dead! a life less taught hers to do a god drat handstand...
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Feb 28, 2011 22:54
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So walks are going well and i'm grateful for all the fabulous advice! Now to try to teach her that "Touch!" is lasting. She just nudges it with her nose and looks at me. When I try to draw it into something sustained, she just bumps around on the target.
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Mar 1, 2011 05:39
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a life less, that is really cool. And Cohen is gorgeous. What I'm going for in training Pongo seems to be at odds with what he's learning in puppy class. I would like to tell him to sit, and have him sit there until I tell him it's okay to go, i.e., without adding "stay" to the command. And the same with "down." I guess he has to know "stay," but I'm not envisioning an occasion where he'd need to go down, up, down, up. As long as I'm wishing, I would like for him to never touch the cat food, even when I am not watching/listening. In an ideal world, I would like him never to eat anything until I've said it's okay (like, if somebody threw a hamburger over the fence, for instance). But I will settle for him not stealing or begging for my sandwich. Also at some point I would like to have him run beside me while I'm bicycling, since otherwise he will never be able to run as fast as he likes to. Obviously that's a ways off, since he's only four months old. I have tried this with previous dogs, and it worked well on the dedicated bike path, but I was always afraid to try it on the street. Unfortunately I have about half a mile of street before I even get to a bike path. A handstand would be really cool, but I'm thinking basics here.
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Mar 1, 2011 05:42
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So I am making progress in some areas, like the latency with lay down, but with anything food related I seem to have stalled. I have been working on trying to teach him to leave my roommates food bowl alone so he can eat in peace. On leash, so I can restrain him its fantastic, I can put bacon in the bowl and he will give it a sniff then look to me. Off leash he will dive bomb it for all he is worth even if there is nothing of interest in the bowl. How can I transition from on leash to off leash leave it?
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Mar 1, 2011 05:54
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So, despite our best efforts, Pickles is not-to-be-crated. First, after a few weeks of getting him used to being in the open wire crate, and feeding him in the crate, treating, etc... There came a day when my parents couldn't watch him and I had to work. So Pickles' BIG TEST happened and when I got home from work, he was at the door to greet me. "Oh gosh, Pickles, how did you get out this time, haha!" And then I walked into the dining room where the crate is kept and discovered it upturned onto its front. And when I picked it up and reset it, I found that the top of the door is bent outwards enough that it cannot latch closed anymore. My dog defeated the carabiners with brute force.   He still happily ran into the crate to eat his dinner though. There was also some blood from him gnawing on the latches and carabiners, so after cleaning that up and letting dog out, I went upstairs to bed to relax. And then I smelled pee. Pickles, you peed on my bed.  Then we tried an airline kennel. After a few days of trying to get him accustomed to that, my boyfriend left him in the crate for a 20 minute errand, and came back. And when he came home, Pickles again was at the kitchen door to greet him. At least this time, the crate was not overturned or anything. Just somehow unlatched. So, we decided that we would just work on the SA without the crate in the picture at all, since that seemed to be making it worse, and wasn't actually confining him. He's not chewing on door frames anymore and while he doesn't love it when we leave, he's not tearing down windowblinds and drooling frantically. Though I am sure to close all of the doors upstairs because of the bed incident. So I think it is slowly getting better. Having a dog is so much fun!!!
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Mar 1, 2011 21:20
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Thanks to a life less for the tips about Dot and her resource guarding. I'm way grateful. Just following your formula for a few days has already shown improvement with her temperament and her interactivity with all the other dogs. She even did some tentative, if somewhat stiff, playing with the guy I mentioned in this thread. So I'm trying to do a number of things here. I have three males (ages 14, 3, and indeterminate, but pretty puppyish [new dog]) that I'm currently trying to train out of marking inside the house. Part of this involves kenneling them up with breaks for peeing and a little bit of play at sporadic points of the day. If they're not kenneled, they're locked in whatever room I'm in with a barrier in the doorway so they're under constant supervision. This screws up the dynamic a bit because I'm worried the other dogs see this as preferential treatment as they hover outside the room and see the three males chilling or playing where they can't reach. In addition to that, I'm trying to counter-condition Dot, actually, most of the dogs, out of bad habits they picked up when I had no idea what dog training actually involved. They're a bit spoiled because we fed them scraps so I've also got to break that as well. Lexi, a smaller female, used to be extremely spoiled by being allowed on laps constantly and even allowed to sleep in the bed with us nightly. Now that she's being put back on equal footing with the other dogs she's starting to act out. She gets aggressive with the other dogs at times if she's chewing a bone or eating food. She's also prone to displays of jealousy. If I give one dog a lot of praise for doing something right, as soon as that dog breaks attention from me, or sometimes before, she'll start growling and tussling with them. It's close to playing but there's a slight aggressive edge to it. Also, this is the worst, she's taken to sneaking off out of sight and pissing in the house. She knows better so I know it's acting out. With the background laid, now for my questions: I really want to use positive reinforcement, but how do I curb behaviors that are undesirable or not allowed? e.g. Undesirable: Dot constantly focuses on food, won't train without food, tends to lie down when she sits or hunch over instead of maintaining a posture I want. Not allowed: pissing in the house, breaking from the room without my permission, leash biting, and the newest today, chewing his harness completely off. I don't want to spank them or verbally reprimand them. However, when they don't listen and they're doing to opposite of what I want, how do I stop that behavior? What's "allowed" in the boundaries of positive reinforcement? How can I stop them from doing what I don't want them to do?
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Mar 1, 2011 22:27
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Gonktastic posted:So walks are going well and i'm grateful for all the fabulous advice! I find when people try to extend the duration of a behaviour they normally try too much too fast. If you can extend the behaviour by even a fraction of a second you're on your way. Pro note: pay attention to your body language. Sometimes you can hint to your dog that you want them to keep a position by raising your other hand, or readjusting your position. It's hard to say anything for sure, but sometimes it can help. Also, once your dog starts getting the touch game, see if you can get a two'fer. See if you can cue a touch then hold off on the reward. If they've really caught on they should nudge the target again. Some dogs get bored with touch, some love it. Try not to do long sessions while teaching/practicing it, and always try to keep it exciting. Rhymes With Clue posted:What I'm going for in training Pongo seems to be at odds with what he's learning in puppy class. I would like to tell him to sit, and have him sit there until I tell him it's okay to go, i.e., without adding "stay" to the command. And the same with "down." I guess he has to know "stay," but I'm not envisioning an occasion where he'd need to go down, up, down, up. Knowing a sit-down-sit is pretty helpful. I think it just makes your dog a bit more in-tune with what you're asking of him. I agree, I think that a dog should sit when cued to sit, and continue sitting until you release. But it's a pretty complex behaviour, and requires quite a bit of self control and patience. At my school we refer to this as a "sit until" (though we just use the command sit with our dogs). We teach it in the more advanced everyday living type class, but we teach a basic stay in the introductory obedience class. My advice is to continue using a "stay" command until it becomes second nature and then start working on a "sit/down until". As for not touching cat food when you're not around, honestly we can only ask so much from our dogs. That may be one bridge too far. You can work on Its Yer Choice exercises so he has a better automatic leave-it. But really in the situation you're describing, management is key. Lift the food off the floor or keep it somewhere the dog won't have access to. With your hamburger example, with really solid Its Yer Choice work you should be able to eventually get him to ignore food distractions like that out in the real world. Re: biking, I've not had any trouble doing it on the street. I have Cohen on a hands-free leash and halter, and ask her to run on my right (she's normally on my left). I bike close to the sidewalk so she's able to trot along on the curb. If she has to leave the sidewalk I'll give her a "with me" cue to let her know I'm moving. So, while biking is a long way off, teaching your dog to walk on specific sides on command plus a "stick with me" type cue will be helpful. Demon_Corsair posted:How can I transition from on leash to off leash leave it? See above re: Its Yer Choice. Start adding in additional behaviours like walking past food on leash, running past it, recalling over top of it, etc before you remove the leash. It just sounds like he's going to need more work while on leash. Be creative, set him up for success, and try your best to be more exciting than the food distraction. impossimole posted:So, despite our best efforts, Pickles is not-to-be-crated. I don't envy you. Dealing with SA is incredibly hard. You may be able to manage him with gates, etc if he's better (and safe) while uncrated. You can try picking up a copy of I'll Be Home Soon by McConnell for some better ideas. Bullio posted:I really want to use positive reinforcement, but how do I curb behaviors that are undesirable or not allowed? There are four quadrants of consequences for behaviours. Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, negative punishment. "Positive" indicates that you're adding something to the environment, "negative" means you're taking something away. "Reinforcement" means you're increasing the likelihood for a behaviour to continue, and "punishment" means you're decreasing the likelihood of repetition. So even "positive reinforcement" trainers need to decrease the occurrence of certain behaviours. The two methods for curbing undesirable behaviours are 1) negative punishment (which I spoke of before -- remove something the dog wants as a consequence for improper behaviour, like toys, attention, etc) and 2) control whether the dog will self-reinforce, or be reinforced by its environment. You can give dogs time outs for eternity, but if they feel they're getting more benefit from acting a certain way you'll never be able to extinguish a behaviour via negative punishment. You kind of have to do the learning-theory math, and try to figure out where the reinforcement is coming from, and how much. On to the specific problems... Dot's food crazy. What food are you using? If she's nuts for it, try using a lower-value item like kibble. Make training a fun game so the engagement and attention become rewarding as well. Fade lures quickly when training behaviours so the dog doesn't get used to you waving food in its face while trying to elicit a behaviour. She lays down. Make sitting really rewarding. If she's sitting feed feed feed and be super happy. If she lays down, the treats stop. Instead reset the exercise by moving and getting her to move with you. Then cue the sit again and continue making it an awesome position to be in. Leash biting. Reward for proper walking behaviour. Catch excitement before it escalates and redirect either to a toy, or food. If your dog gets too amped up just stop walking, be patient and ask for another behaviour like a sit or a down. Peeing in the house. This is kind of a whole topic unto itself. First, you need to manage the hell out of your dogs so they're not given the opportunity to make the wrong choice and pee inside. Crate them if you can't watch them, and if they're out and about have them tied to your waist so you can keep a close eye on them. Bring them out frequently to pee, and when they do pee outside reward them like craaaazy. You kind of want to make it impossible for the dogs to screw this up. They can't pee when you're right there to catch/interrupt the behaviour, and they get cookies and praise and games and more when they go outside. If you do catch them going inside don't shout, don't smack them -- just get up, pick the dog up mid-stream and move them outside. If they finish out there, great, have a party. If not, too bad. Are they peeing? Or specifically marking? Are they de-sexed? When my dog does something I don't want her to do I have an interrupter word, a "ah ah". I say it softly and cheerfully, but my dog knows that it means she's to stop doing what she's doing. Soon after I do that I cue the behaviour I want instead. Most purely positive trainers will forgo the interrupter and instead just cue what they want instead, but sometimes I feel like it's necessary. The whole idea behind positive reinforcement is that you make it kind of impossible for the dog to gently caress up. You start off easy and gradually work your way up into more complex and difficult behaviours, but always set them up to succeed.
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Mar 2, 2011 03:41
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a life less posted:I don't envy you. Dealing with SA is incredibly hard. You may be able to manage him with gates, etc if he's better (and safe) while uncrated. You can try picking up a copy of I'll Be Home Soon by McConnell for some better ideas. Yeah. For now he still goes to my parents' house during the days when no one can be home. As far as confining him to one specific area of our house, we let him roam the first floor. He's not a garbage raider, at least not yet, so we trust him enough to not do anything too dumb. He knows not to pee on the furniture. I think the bed was... a special incident. And yeah, I definitely feel more comfortable leaving him uncrated. I think he's more apt to injure himself squeezing out of wire crates or chewing on carabiners. I bought McConnell's book when we started to really work on the SA.  And I have to say, ever since the crate was taken out of the equation a few weeks ago, his anxiety isn't nearly as bad. I also got a DAP plug in around that time. Honestly I have no idea if that is actually making a difference. Maybe it's a combination of both. I should also mention that we're thinking about getting another dog. Not like, tomorrow. In the next few months. Before we moved to the new place, we were living with some friends and Pickles had a constant companion there. He adored Bella and she would come lay on our bed in our room during the day when he was crated. I think having a buddy would help him be calm, though don't get me wrong. I'm not thinking that it will be like a magic solution to the SA. Beyond the SA concerns, I think he needs somebody to play with and wrestle with, besides us. We've got a big yard and space enough for a second dog. Let me know if you think this is a horrible idea.
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Mar 2, 2011 17:27
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Just be warned that 2 dogs is not work*2, it's work^2. I have two Australian Cattle Dogs, a 7 month old male and a 6 month old female. Both fixed. Ridiculously smart, both had sit down pat at 10 weeks and down at about 12, they're fairly good about "leave it", we've finally got the housetraining thing mostly there. Still have the occasional excited pee or a "hurry up, hurry up, I gotta go I gotta go, go faster, I need to go ou-... nevermind" poop, but 99% of the time they do business outside with minimal fuss. The major issue is that they both go absolutely loving PSYCHO at dinner time. So much as glancing at the dinner bowls starts a frenzy of running, barking, jumping, and if they're in their crates, crate-digging. It's not the time that sets them off, it's the ritual of getting the food ready, which is good in that we can change the ritual which throws them off for a little while, but bad in that at some stage, the kibble container has to be opened and food has to be carried out and put down. They can't eat out of their crates together, since they'll just squabble over the food and one gets all of it and the other gets nothing. We try not to reinforce the barking by giving them their bowls while it's going on, but all they've learned from that is that it's ok to bark and throw a loving fit right up until we get to the crates with the bowls, and then they sit quietly, though anxious. When they eat, they eat fast, they don't go super duper fast and I check for signs of bloat but it's never happened. We're trying to figure out a way to put a stop to the absolute circus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5oPFmmvmBE - my puppers
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Mar 3, 2011 00:39
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Ahahaha your video We had that exact toy and Pickles dissected it bit by bit. We found chunks of black rubber in the couch for weeks. He never ate it though. Yeah, I'm prepared for the work^2. I grew up in a house full of dogs, and my dad showed and bred a few litters. (Not BYB, though. Anything but that. One of my favorite moments growing up going to dog shows was when someone was peddling BYB dogs outside of the fairgrounds the show was at.  My dad yelled at them for a very long time and they left.)And, yeesh! A six month and a seven month old? They look like little scrappers. There's no way we'd be getting a puppy. Pickles was 6 months when we got him. He is now almost 2 years. That's a good age. Two. Yeah, I like that.
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Mar 3, 2011 00:49
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About two days after I made that video I found a piece of black stuff on the floor that looked a bit like a black twist-tie that had gotten wadded up. I shrugged and tossed it, and picked up the tire toy (which was sitting oddly still in a corner) to throw it, and the bell fell out.  And yeah, it was a little rough, since we went from having 0 dogs to the equivalent of about 4... Those furry little assholes get in to -everything- but they're adorable so I forgive them.
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Mar 3, 2011 01:17
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hailthefish posted:Just be warned that 2 dogs is not work*2, it's work^2. Sounds like you're pretty close, and on the right track. Can they see you preparing their food? If so, just use some negative punishment techniques. As soon as they begin to act up, put the food or whatever you're working with on the counter and stop preparing it. Assume a body posture that says you're stopping. Cross your arms and point your nose at the ceiling and be the biggest snob you can be. If that doesn't get the message through, try putting it back and just leaving the room and ignoring them. The point is that when they act up, everything stops and you start over. They already understand this concept if they're sitting quietly in their crates when you get there. Just extend that same behavior to the entire process. You're close, just be patient. Also regarding feeding, we've had similar problems with our golden retriever. She scarfs retarded fast and we were always worrying about bloat. You can try throwing balls or toys on top of the food in their bowls. This didn't work for us, and neither did the slow-eater bowls (be careful about any of them that are not made of metal -- there are some toxin concerns that are still under debate). What we finally settled on is the big Kong Wobbler toy. Fill it up with food and make them work for it. That may be a lot harder with two dogs that won't share, so you can also just spread it across the floor of their crate if you prefer. That's what we do when we travel. If you start having weight problems, consider feeding them their largest meal in the morning rather than the evening.
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Mar 3, 2011 15:25
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I've curbed Asa's quick eating with a trick I got from my aunt - her bowl has a bunch of large, well-rounded river rocks in it. Just mix the food in. As long as the rocks are big enough, they can't swallow them, and if you make sure they are all well-rounded, nothing sharp can get them. About 5 seconds into her first bowl with yummy rocks, she slowed down. She's much better about eating more slowly now, and hasn't hurt herself/damaged her teeth at all. She just scoops around with her nose and schlurps up kibble as she gets to it.
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Mar 3, 2011 15:56
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On top of the other suggestions here I'm going to suggest you both desensitize your dogs to the meal preparation process and begin to weaken the association between certain behaviours and the arrival of food. Remember Pavlov's dogs and how they would salivate when a bell was sounded because they expected food to arrive? Right now your ritual is that bell. If Pavlov began ringing the bell and no food would arrive the association between the bell and the food became weaker and weaker, and eventually it would go extinct. So, I would start fussing around in the kitchen and going through the process but stop short of feeding the dogs. Make sure they know that just because you're fussing around with their bowls doesn't necessarily mean they're getting a meal. I would also start working on Its Yer Choice games (mentioned/linked in my last post in this thread). The idea is that food will be present but the dog will be blocked from accessing it if it tries to get it. The only way the dog can get food is by disengaging from it. When starting out this may only be for a split second but as you work on it you should be able to build the association between calmness and the reward. Last suggestion, feed them separately. They're probably feeding off each other's manic energy. If you can feed them in separate rooms while doing your best to exude calm it should help too. Good luck. You must be insane to have opted for two Heeler puppies. Jeez. I guess you were feeling masochistic. But they're awesome little dogs.
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Mar 3, 2011 16:13
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We can't do separate rooms, but on days when there's more than one person home, we could do feeding while the other is on a walk. We've also been talking about feeding them a little more in the morning and then a little less in the evening, and pushing the evening feeding an hour or so later. Right now they get equal amounts at 6 am and 6 pm, so we'll try tweaking the feeding schedule and working on the "If you flip out, the food goes away" process. It'll take a few unbearably loud days but I don't see why it -won't- work. And yes, they're crazy dogs but I love those little bastards. Were we to to do it all again, two puppies at the same time is not what we'd do. But if I were to pick which of our two to have not gotten, I couldn't decide. We were originally planning on only one, the girl. The boy was from a previous litter from a different, partner breeder that was living at the breeder we were talking to's place while trying to find a home. We looked at his pictures as he got older and older and went "he's such a handsome little guy, why doesn't he have a home yet?" but thinking by the time we were ready he'd be gone. Well, by the time we were ready, he was still there, so we discussed it as a family and discussed it with the breeder and she said normally the answer would be hell no but we were on the ball and knew what we were getting into. Well, we didn't know what we were getting into, as it turns out, but we're doing pretty good! I've been curious about trying clicker training, but with two dogs, would I need two clickers? A lot of the time I'm the only one home, so taking one on a walk while training with the other one isn't really possible.
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Mar 3, 2011 23:29
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a life less posted:See above re: Its Yer Choice. Start adding in additional behaviours like walking past food on leash, running past it, recalling over top of it, etc before you remove the leash. It just sounds like he's going to need more work while on leash. Be creative, set him up for success, and try your best to be more exciting than the food distraction. that seems like a good set of exercises. I don't think I will give them food on the floor though, I had tried that before and ended up creating the expectation that if he leaves the food, then he gets it. the other fun behavior to fix is him going after klenexes in the garbage. He generally only does it when no one is around, so it's gonna be tricky to train him out of it. I think I need to start carrying around the clicker all the time when I am at home. I usually grab it for training time, but now that he knows clicker = treats, he will immeadiately stop any bad behavior to sit and wait for treats.
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Mar 4, 2011 17:08
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Demon_Corsair posted:that seems like a good set of exercises. I don't think I will give them food on the floor though, I had tried that before and ended up creating the expectation that if he leaves the food, then he gets it. Invest in toppered waste baskets. You will not regret the money. Just anything with a foot pedal to open the top.
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Mar 4, 2011 21:30
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MrFurious posted:Invest in toppered waste baskets. You will not regret the money. Just anything with a foot pedal to open the top. I have a couple. Just need to get my roommates to get them as well.
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Mar 5, 2011 00:08
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Demon_Corsair posted:I think I need to start carrying around the clicker all the time when I am at home. I usually grab it for training time, but now that he knows clicker = treats, he will immeadiately stop any bad behavior to sit and wait for treats. I had this same problem, Darla figured this out and knew immediately whether she was "on duty" or not. I've transitioned to using a verbal cue a lot of the time ("YIP" in a very distinctive tone) and it's helped a ton, plus I have both hands free now. I know the clicker is more accurate and if I was teaching a really hard behavior I'd use it, but for many simple tasks the verbal cue has been working well for me.
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Mar 5, 2011 02:35
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I finally got around to reading this entire thread. Thanks for all the great information and resources so far! I have a few questions regarding specific issues we are working on with Corwin, who is our 6-month-old Pembroke Corgi pup. Any advice? 1) We would ideally like him to leave the cat's food alone. Is this asking too much? The cat is free-fed, and I hate putting his food on the counter in case he wanders in there and wants to eat. Baby gates are an OK temp solution, but I'm looking for something more long-term. Impulse control games? He already knows he's not SUPPOSED to eat it, but sometimes he can't help himself and sneaks a bite. 2) He is good about barking unless he gets riled up at the cat (which the cat will intentionally encourage). He then uses his super-shrill bark to try and engage the cat, which we ALL hate. Is the best way to curb this to interrupt the behavior and give him something else to do? We tried time-outs in the bathroom, and that worked OK for a while, but now he doesn't seem to care. I don't mind them playing (in fact, I like it!) but the barking is driving me nuts. 3) He is good playing fetch indoors but kind of retarded when it comes to playing fetch outdoors. When he's with other dogs, he's figured out that he can't get to the ball as fast as them, so he's taken to cheating by "going long," so to speak. The end result of that play with other dogs is that when he's playing with just us and a chuckit+ball outdoors, he only delivers the ball to about 20 feet away. He'll just stop out there and leave it and wait expectantly. No amount of encouragement can get him to bring it closer. I thought maybe trying to get him to come with a treat and trade the ball for a treat would work, but I can't get him to bring the ball close enough to make that happen. 4) We are working on good behavior for on-leash walking, as we let that slip for a little bit and now he likes to lead us to the park. His big problems are having a hard time sticking to walking on one side and getting too easily distracted. I guess I need to practice indoors more. I'm having trouble getting him the treats super-fast, too, because he's so short and I'm so tall. My main question about on-leash walking is involving the length of the training session. I know I'm not supposed to tire him out training too much, but I also don't want to encourage any incorrect behavior. What is the correct way to get him out and exercised when he still hasn't mastered the loose leash or heel without drilling him constantly? Corwin says thank you in advance.
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Mar 5, 2011 21:35
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hailthefish posted:I've been curious about trying clicker training, but with two dogs, would I need two clickers? A lot of the time I'm the only one home, so taking one on a walk while training with the other one isn't really possible. I don't train two dogs at once (I don't own two dogs, so...) but I think the general idea is that you should clicker train separately. You can buy battery operated clickers that have multiple tones, but I kind of think they're not worth it. Having a dog super used to one specific click won't come in too helpful if you lose one of your clickers. If I were in your shoes I would do most of the finicky training separately, and condition a marker word for each dog, like a "yes" and a "oui" or something for when you have them out together. Wonder Bra posted:I finally got around to reading this entire thread. Thanks for all the great information and resources so far! 1) You're asking a lot for a dog to completely leave food that's just laying around alone -- especially with a 6 month old puppy. Honestly I would just manage it with baby gates or put the food in an elevated place. The possibility for self-reinforcement is too high. You can try Its Yer Choice games (I've posted about them a few times recently) but I think you're best off keeping it out of reach. 2) Congratulations. You have a Corgi. I am familiar with the earsplitting excitement barks with my own girl. Mine barks when she's excited or overstimulated and will just stand there gazing off into nothing while making noise. The best method I've found to diminish the barking is to control her arousal level. If you notice Corwin getting too keyed up just step in to interrupt and calm him down. Since it sounds like he'll keep barking from the bathroom it sounds like he's really, really keyed up. They seem to get into this closed loop of excitement barking where they feed off their own energy. A few ideas for how to fix it: Try to get his attention on something else. Slap a leash on him and walk him around and reward him like crazy if he focuses on you. Grab hold of his collar (don't pull) as an interrupter. Teach a calm cue. Teach a quiet cue. To teach a calm cue you essentially classically condition a word to be associated with a calm state of mind. With Cohen I can give my cue and you'll see her physically relax (in certain situations). I taught this by massaging and petting her when she was already relaxed and just lounging around. I spent weeks just giving a message and quietly saying "shhhh...." If you don't rush it, you should eventually have an association between the word and the state of mind. Don't try to apply it too soon or it'll just become background noise for his barking. 3) Start working specifically on the "return to hand" part of the behaviour. This is called backchaining. I taught this through shaping. Here's a video that's very similar to how I taught the behaviour. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFO9Z0oHBA 4) Do you always walk the same path? Try to mix it up. Be irregular in your walking pattern, and be exciting and highly rewarding for your dog at least to start. Loose leash walking can be pretty boring, so you have to overcome this with particularly awesome treats or excitement. As for how long the training sessions can be, I don't really see any reason to limit how long you'll be reinforcing walking with a loose leash. Here's a basic video for how best to teach it. There are also a few posts in this thread with methods typed out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ Re: getting the treats to him, that's why clickers are effective. They mark the moment you agree with the behaviour and then you can take a beat or two to actually deliver the treat. I'm a big fan of clickers, but you can also classically condition a word in a similar fashion. You can also try using peanut butter or something on a long wooden spoon go give your arm an extra bit of reach. Teaching heel can be a pretty focus-intensive behaviour, so I was taught that you should pick some landmarks like lightposts or something and ask for a heel between them, rewarding constantly. Then once your past you can give a release command and then periodically reward for proper loose leash. I have one of those hyper-food driven dogs so she was definitely stuck to my side like velcro when I was constantly waving food in front of her face. Lots of work indoors and in environments less exciting/distracting than outdoors can only help. In the mean time, you can do play tug, hide and go seek, fetch, etc if you don't feel confident that you'll be able to be consistent outside. But again, loose leash walking is kind of one of those things that I feel needs to be worked on the entire time you're outside so I don't ever set a short time limit for it. (Of course, if you're working on it for 30-45 mins+ you'll have to realize you're asking a lot of your dog, and take plenty of play breaks.) I hope that helped. Please ask if anything is unclear.
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Mar 6, 2011 16:10
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Thanks, A Life Less! 1) Good to know about the cat food. We need to get him a platform or something to eat on, as we currently don't have any elevated surfaces he can reach to eat on that we don't want him eating on (i.e. the kitchen table, heh). He's got really good impulse control unless it comes to barking at the cat... even with the food, he's pretty reliable until he just can't stand it any more. 2) That's about what I thought. With the bathroom, it's not that he barks once he's in there, he just doesn't seem to really regard it as negative punishment, just "derp I was in the bathroom! now where was that kitty I was playing with?" I was just reading about "relax" and "quiet," and I'll be working on those with him this week. 3) OMG, thanks. My husband gets driven nuts by his poor retrieving and this will give him something to work on with Corwin. 4) We definitely mix it up, because if we start heading toward the park he gets too excited. His biggest issue seems to be that he yo-yos loose leash/tight leash/loose leash/tight leash, and I can't seem to get him to reliably stay with me for that long. I guess I need to get more excited. We do use a clicker, and I looooove it. With treats, my main problem is getting them to him while he's still walking. He's so short and I have to reach pretty far down to him, so he tends to stop walking rather than continue, as I'd like him to do. Once we stop and start, he seems to loose his groove and I have to repeat the whole process. Maybe that's just normal. Thank you again!
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Mar 6, 2011 20:42
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We just walked around two whole blocks without the leash going taut! She paused to sniff and chew on the wet grass a bit, but always came when I called "Let's go!" We have graduated past our block. This is wonderful
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Mar 6, 2011 22:44
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a life less posted:3) Start working specifically on the "return to hand" part of the behaviour. This is called backchaining. I taught this through shaping. Here's a video that's very similar to how I taught the behaviour. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFO9Z0oHBA This seemed like a fun shaping exercise so Major and I worked on it today. He gets so excited about shaping, much more than if I'm luring. He got pretty quickly that the thing needed to go in his mouth, which I figured he would because he puts everything in his mouth. Maybe tomorrow we'll get up to actually holding it without me holding it. He would get it a lot faster if he put more brainpower to the task and not to trying to get to the clicker to click it himself. He's hoping it works like his "easy button" in the car and if he can get it to make the noise he automatically gets treats. He's such a funny dog. I stopped a session when he tried taking the toy away to chew so for a couple sessions afterwards he wouldn't put his teeth on it at all and would just hover his mouth over it and get it all spitty. He also feels that his paws need to be involved in every trick since we did a lot of foot awareness games so I had to be careful to only click when all his feet are down or else he tried to put his mouth and his paws on the toy at the same time. Thanks for the video A Life Less!
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Mar 7, 2011 01:08
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Great thread; I've been following it on-and-off over the past little while. I recently adopted an older dog and he's overall pretty OK behavior-wise, but has many of the traits of dogs that have not been in a good home environment for a while -- not a lot of command recognition, not much interest in me at all when outside, no leash skills, etc. I have a lot of work ahead of me in the quest to teach him manners, but that's dogs, I suppose. I'm starting small for now (in a couple of days' work, he now knows it's in his advantage to sit still while I'm putting the collar/leash on him to go outside) and will be enrolling in the SPCA 'basic training' obedience class shortly. He's pretty OK with the crate, going inside to eat/drink, but I want to give him some time to get used to things around here before going further. One question: He whines/yips for a minute or two after I leave the house, but knocks it off and is apparently fine afterward. Anything in particular I should do to keep this behavior from escalating, or is that not at that point I should be worrying about it? SUPER HASSLER fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 7, 2011 |
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Mar 7, 2011 04:39
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SpermyShermy posted:Great thread; I've been following it on-and-off over the past little while. All of that sounds pretty par for the course for adult rescues. Just focus on NILIF and learning the basics and you should be fine. Good job looking into training classes too, that's a great way to bond with your dog and become a better trainer. I wouldn't worry about the whining at this point except to do some basic crate=good work (look up Susan Garrett's Crate Games) and leave him with good things. My dog did that for a couple weeks when I first adopted him but eventually chilled out when he realized that I was coming back and that barking didn't get him out.
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Mar 7, 2011 04:46
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SpermyShermy posted:One question: He whines/yips for a minute or two after I leave the house, but knocks it off and is apparently fine afterward. Anything in particular I should do to keep this behavior from escalating, or is that not at that point I should be worrying about it? That sounds pretty normal. The general rule of thumb is to make your leaving an enjoyable experience, and your return boring. Leave him with a special treat when you leave and make sure he's well exercised so he should just eat the treat then nap. When you get home be nice and mellow and only greet him when he's mellow as well. Plus crate games, as Instant Jellyfish said.
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Mar 7, 2011 15:11
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I'm kind of curious what's happened. Ephy was doing great with the "Bed" command- we'd point and say it and she'd go over to her bed and lie down. We were working up to using this when people come over. Then one day after we'd used it a few times, she became completely unwilling to do it. She knew what we wanted, would look sad, slink over there, and lie NEXT to the bed. Walk around it, etc, anything but lie down on her bed. We never used it as a punishment, but asked her to go to bed a couple times when she had her nose in our laps and we didn't want it. Is she doing this to test her boundaries, or because she now thinks it's a punishment place and she's trying to placate us by showing that she will lie down but please please not on the bed?
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Mar 8, 2011 07:00
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Gonktastic posted:I'm kind of curious what's happened. Ephy was doing great with the "Bed" command- we'd point and say it and she'd go over to her bed and lie down. We were working up to using this when people come over. Then one day after we'd used it a few times, she became completely unwilling to do it. She knew what we wanted, would look sad, slink over there, and lie NEXT to the bed. Walk around it, etc, anything but lie down on her bed. We never used it as a punishment, but asked her to go to bed a couple times when she had her nose in our laps and we didn't want it. The whole point of positive reinforcement training is to make the behaviour you desire valuable to the dog. It sounds like you've not yet transferred enough value to the behaviour of sitting on the bed, so she's become hesitant to comply. The hesitant and possible anxiety at being unwilling to comply with what you're asking is probably poisoning your cue. "Poisoning" sounds more dire than it really is. Maybe start again from scratch and really focus on building the value in the bed. Eventually you'll have a transfer of value, where the bed will be valuable regardless of whether you're around or not. But it takes time and a lot of reinforcement. This whole "value" shpiel is something Susan Garrett talks about a lot in crate games. Essentially you want that bed to act as a crate, so maybe reading up on them and watching this and some of the other linked videos will help.
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Mar 8, 2011 18:38
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Yeah, she really loves her bed. She'll even help us carry it upstairs for bedtime. The poisoning seemed to come when we were transferring her normal "down" for visitors to "bed" and she hates that she has to wait. It has been turned into a happy bacon giving bed now, and we will rebuild the command. Something I don't really ever see in training videos is what happens after! So, great, if I have treats on me, she walks politely at my side. If I don't have treats, she still does well but we're pretty limited to our block. So to expand her range should I bring treats? We apparently live in the most exciting neighborhood ever, with dogs or cats or squirrels every couple houses. I see lots about fading out lures, but what about treats for reinforcement? Should I randomly bring treats for some walks, and not for others? Will she get dependent and only obey when I bring yummy stuff? I hope I haven't been wearing you down with all the questions! I want a happy, obedient dog. Everyone who comes over is astonished at how well-behaved she is and her big repertoire of tricks. There are always things to work on though! We're looking into puppy socialization classes.
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Mar 8, 2011 20:40
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Gonktastic posted:Yeah, she really loves her bed. She'll even help us carry it upstairs for bedtime. The poisoning seemed to come when we were transferring her normal "down" for visitors to "bed" and she hates that she has to wait. It has been turned into a happy bacon giving bed now, and we will rebuild the command. Every single walk I go on I bring treats (sometimes just a handful of kibble) so I can reinforce behaviour I like regardless of whether we've been down a street a hundred times or not. I think food reinforcement should be relative to the difficulty of a behaviour. For example, I'm not going to give my dog a treat for sitting (maybe a quick "good girl" or a head pat from time to time) but I am going to treat her for deciding not to chase after that squirrel, or doing a handstand, or ignoring a dog barking in her face because those are tough things for her to do. The way I look at training is that you use a high level of reinforcement to lay the groundwork for behaviours, ideally so much so that they become ingrained in a dog's behavioural patterns. Once that happens you can begin to wean off the use of treat reinforcements, maybe substituting for play or praise. Periodic unpredictable reinforcement will be the best way to ensure a behaviour continues into the future. You always want to be reinforcing to your dog, but with training it will require less effort on your part to be so. She won't grow dependent on yummy stuff unless you allow her to be. Once you've gotten to the point of asking for your dog's attention (rather than waving a treat in front of them to get them to acknowledge you) when you offer a treat you are rewarding their behaviour, not bribing them. It's up to you to feel out what your dog is capable of. If I were you I'd still be going out with a pocketful of food where ever I took her. Just always keep in mind how reinforcing you are vs the rest of her environment -- this will grow in time as you progress further in your training. Good luck!
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Mar 8, 2011 22:22
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Gonktastic posted:Something I don't really ever see in training videos is what happens after! So, great, if I have treats on me, she walks politely at my side. If I don't have treats, she still does well but we're pretty limited to our block. So to expand her range should I bring treats? We apparently live in the most exciting neighborhood ever, with dogs or cats or squirrels every couple houses. I see lots about fading out lures, but what about treats for reinforcement? Should I randomly bring treats for some walks, and not for others? Will she get dependent and only obey when I bring yummy stuff? Get some of these! Treat bags: http://www.amazon.com/Canine-Hardware-Treat-Small-Colors/dp/B000274692/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1299625704&sr=8-3 They are super cheap and aren't huge fanny packs like some treat bags and yet they hold a lot. I bring it everytime I go outside because I don't want to miss an opportunity to reward good behavior or counter-condition my dog. As a life less said, you decide where your dog is at and phase out rewards by asking for something a little more impressive when your dog starts to get down the basics really well. My dog definitely knows the treat bag is there, but since I always bring it (and wear it around the house occasionally if I know she's going to have one of those 'life lesson' moments because my wallet/socks/cardboard is sitting out in plain sight), she doesn't do her best behavior dance like she would if I was holding the treat in front of her or had to spent a lot of time digging through pockets/plastic bags. Maybe your dog wouldn't be fooled by the bag, but I still think always bringing treats is a good idea and they are nice bags and easily accessible. They're washable too.
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Mar 9, 2011 00:20
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Hhaaaayyy guiiizzzee... Not sure if this goes here, but it is kind of.. trainingish. I was at a new dog park yesterday and there were a pretty good amount of dogs there. This is a very recent behavior that I've noticed and someone at the park even commented on it so I want to assess and control it before it grows. When Diaz is playing with other dogs and the action starts to get close to where I'm standing or crouching she uses me as some sort of block/shield and runs around me or keeps running back to where I am and using me as sort of a brace. That's fine, we've all been knocked into and had those "do a weird little sidestep dance thing for 5 minutes while 60 dogs run at our unprotected kneecaps" moments. But occasionally she gets a bit too... assertive[?] when playing and instead of enjoying the chase she whirls around me and starts to act out a bit towards whatever dogs are playing with her--not aggression I think but she will lunge forward at them as they run close to me and shoulder-butt them or mouth them and get really noisy and more intense. I end up having to do a lot of wiggling to try and back out of this "play zone" and telling her "easy" because she's getting too rough. This only happens when she and another dog are playing close to me, and does not happen every time--in fact, not even most of the time. A lady at the park made a half-joking comment that Diaz was getting kind of protective of me as Diaz was making rush-passes at her dog who was playing in our little standing zone (me and 3 other ladies) and I wondered if this could be the case? Does that sound at all logical? I've never thought of Diaz as being protective, I didn't have any food on me (she will try to resource guard if I have food), and she's not exactly a dog I'd trust to scare off intruders on a late-night-dark-alley walk. I also don't know much about protective behaviors because, well, I need to brush up on my reading I guess. Only protection Diaz has shown for me is if someone enters my room when I'm sleeping, lights off, and she's on the bed with me she will growl/snarl/hairs up and if they approach and reach for me she snaps at them (never leaving the bed, never pursuing the person--I only know this because my old roommate had it happen a few times when he went to get my laptop). If I'm awake, lights are on, whatever she will be friendly as can be.Uh so question is, since I don't have this on film or anything yet (I can try!), what does it sound like? Basic gist: sometimes when Diaz is playing with other dogs and they play too close to me she gets more intense and begins circling me and using me as a block (like head between my legs type thing), "snapping" at or charging the other dogs while becoming way more vocal with grumbles, loud sharp barks (versus a longer, lower bark). I find myself having to walk or back away and command her to "easy/calm down" or separate myself before she resumes normal play. If this is some sort of protective thing I don't want her becoming aggressive over other dogs around me and don't want to encourage it, especially at the dog park where I like getting cuddles from playful puppies. Am I doing the right thing by extracting myself from the situation/telling her to back off? Should I halt play and make her focus for a second so the situation is defused? I want to teach her that when we're playing with other dogs it's not OK to turn into a raging mommy-is-mine monster and escalate into a fight when too close to me. bonus pic of the durp: 
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Mar 9, 2011 18:09
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Kiri koli posted:Get some of these! Treat bags: http://www.amazon.com/Canine-Hardware-Treat-Small-Colors/dp/B000274692/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1299625704&sr=8-3 I have chalk bags for treats and a ball. Your item is cheaper though
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Mar 9, 2011 18:30
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huskyjackal posted:Basic gist: sometimes when Diaz is playing with other dogs and they play too close to me she gets more intense and begins circling me and using me as a block (like head between my legs type thing), "snapping" at or charging the other dogs while becoming way more vocal with grumbles, loud sharp barks (versus a longer, lower bark). I find myself having to walk or back away and command her to "easy/calm down" or separate myself before she resumes normal play. My guess is that she's retreating to you when play gets a little "too real" for her. Dogs often play like toddlers where fun times for all can quickly become wrestling with gritted teeth and tears. It's possible that she's guarding you, but I think she's more looking for a time out. I think you're right in suggesting you halt play and get her to focus so she can relax a bit and then let them re-approach each other. If they both seem interested in playing again, let them at it again. Periodically break it up and calm them down. I find this is the best way to make sure that rough play stays fun for everyone involved. If she is guarding you then you want to be able to calm her down quickly and have her know that if she sits in a nice focused stay for a few seconds while you pat other dogs you'll make it worth her time. That's what I've done with my dog who would previously take offence at the perceived rudeness of other dogs to me. I just tend to say "be good" when I'm patting other dogs and she's learned that if she just mellows out she'll get a few treats afterwards. I didn't specifically set out to teach her the "be good" cue, it just occurred naturally.
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Mar 10, 2011 00:35
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Oh man it's amazing what about a week of clicker training has done to his leash manners. It's like a different dog outside now. Now to work on his recall a little more I reckon.
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Mar 10, 2011 18:35
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This is probably a pipe dream but I'm starting to seriously think about the possibility of working with dogs when I graduate. The issue is, while I have worked with animals before it was with birds and reptiles as a zookeeper and in my university's lab. I also grew up with and currently live with animals but I've never trained a dog from scratch, so while I've been reading a lot I don't have any real practical experience. So anyway, my question is: Are there dog training certifications or courses I could take? Are some better respected or more of an education than others? I'm in Southern Ontario, a life less if you have any reccomendations that would be wonderful. Is this a really dumb dream to have even though I'm not currently a dog owner (I'd love to but it's not possible now )?
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Mar 12, 2011 16:11
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Apidae posted:So anyway, my question is: Are there dog training certifications or courses I could take? Are some better respected or more of an education than others? I'm in Southern Ontario, a life less if you have any reccomendations that would be wonderful. Is this a really dumb dream to have even though I'm not currently a dog owner (I'd love to but it's not possible now
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Mar 12, 2011 17:09
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