|
NOTinuyasha posted:GM's last great troll before the bailout, and it must be the worst car of the 2000s,
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 04:17 |
|
|
# ? May 11, 2024 16:24 |
|
kimbo305 posted:I assure you there were plenty of worse cars in the 2000s. Yeah the pt cruiser would like a word with the aveo. Also, the mercedes ml320. What an unreliable piece of gold-plated poo poo. EDIT: or anything with the word "sebring" on it. To be honest, I'd take an aveo over practically any chrysler product from the 2000's, unless it has the letters "srt8" on it.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 05:16 |
|
What planet are you living on that the PT Cruiser was worse than an Aveo? Both are pieces of poo poo, but the Aveo is just beyond lovely.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 05:25 |
|
NOTinuyasha posted:The Cobalt's under-engineering was nothing compared to the Aveo. I sat inside one guy's first generation crapbox, GM's last great troll before the bailout, and it must be the worst car of the 2000s, it just can't get worse. Carsurvey/CR both confirm the Cavalier and Cobalt were more reliable, too, somehow. They're still selling the Aveo for the 2011 model year, presumably direct to rental companies. Can the Aveo really take the Worst Car of the 'Oughts title away from the Cavalier? At least the Aveo manages more than one star in side-impact crash testing, and the pieces of its interior were designed with the intention of fitting together.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 07:06 |
|
Autism Sundae posted:It's a great car if you only measure cars with numbers they get on the track. It's not a great car to buy, own, and drive daily. Nobody's saying that Cobalt SS isn't a great performer. Are you on the right forum? We have people who daily drive Lotus Elise's on here and we all seem to agree that's pretty awesome. Actually, if you look at this situation another way. The Cavalier got a reputation that was SO lovely that the Cobalt that came after it is tarnished. GM managed to put together a genuinely good performing car in the Cobalt SS that should tick all the right boxes with AI but...nope.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 14:47 |
|
While I hate passing judgement on a car based on rental experence, as its usually a pretty poor example of the car, but... I had an '11 Aveo as a rental last month. Had 8000K on the clock, and every time we turned the key, it sounded like it didn't want to start, like an old carburated car with a broken choke in sub zero temperatures, I had to fight the urge to pump the gas. Then, while running, sounded like the combustion chambers were filled with ball bearings. The brakes felt like I was controlling them over a slow internet connection. Press the brake, wait....wait....oh there we go. The handling felt like there was a piano on the roof, highway off ramps were so bad, it was almost comical. The headlights were about as effective as me holding my cell phone out the window. The dashboard seams still had molding flash stuck to them. And to top it off, it was painted Ferrari Yellow. An Auto, Non Turbo PT Cruiser with 150K on it would have been an upgrade.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 15:49 |
|
lazer_chicken posted:Yeah the pt cruiser would like a word with the aveo. Also, the mercedes ml320. What an unreliable piece of gold-plated poo poo. Don't forget the SRT neons and dodge trucks with the little c on the side (and 6 on the floor, the automatics on those things were a sick, expensive joke). Are we judging this on terrible performance or interiors? Because nothing from Chrysler had even a passable interior.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 17:04 |
|
Mighty Horse posted:While I hate passing judgement on a car based on rental experence, as its usually a pretty poor example of the car, but... That's pretty much my experience with them as well. I'd also submit the HHR as a horrible loving vehicle of the 2000s. I've never hated a car so loving much, not even the above mentioned Aveo, while driving it.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 17:14 |
|
iwentdoodie posted:That's pretty much my experience with them as well. The base HHR was not fun at all for me when I had to drive one as a rental. I did however have a bit of fun with the Turbo HHR SS when I got to take one out for a test drive.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 18:01 |
|
I think there was an announcement a year or two ago that said there were no plans to offer an SS version of the Cruze. http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1032253_gm-disbands-high-performance-vehicle-operations John Heinricy retired in 2008, and without his protection GM completely disbanded his HPVO (High Performance Vehicle Operations) team which is responsible for engineering all Chevrolet SS and Cadillac V-series cars (excepting the Camaro SS and all Corvettes). The former engineers were distributed throughout the company and its resources reallocated. It will probably never return in its current form. Since the team members with performance tuning and engineering experience are now scattered between project teams, there will be less influence and available expertise for each project. All design is about making decisions about critical compromises between competing interests on a project, and I fear that without this level of centralization, GM's performance vehicles will suffer. Word is that the new management also doesn't like the idea of low volume performance variants, especially those that require a specialized engineering team, in the interests of cutting research and development spending as well as production costs. All that I have heard so far is that they will try to respect the SS brand and not use it for a glorified trim level, but that there is currently no engineering allocated to a performance Cruze. This means that if there probably won't be an SS variant like you saw with the Cobalt which was aggressively performance oriented and had a lot of unique engineering (for instance, the "no-lift shift" transmission feature). You'll probably see a "sporty" model with a slightly firmer suspension and stick-on side skirts with the refresh or something, but nothing like the excellent turbo Cobalt/HHR SS which had a unique engine and transmission, i believe different suspension geometry, and other serious performance engineering. The idea that I have gleaned from interviews and the like is that GM wants to market the Cruze as an "upscale" compact car with a "big car feel" and an interest in "luxury" and economy over sportiness. This is probably also part of the reason the hatch is not coming to the US - hatches are associated with cheapness, not luxury. This strikes mes as a pretty stupid decision, but seems pretty solidly in line with GM's recent decisions which seem to think that marketing and cost-cutting are more important than superior engineering. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Mar 7, 2011 |
# ? Mar 7, 2011 20:41 |
|
Cream_Filling posted:
The part about this that is silly is they are going to have a Buick Cruze variant. So, if they push the Chevy version too upmarket, they start stepping on their own toes. At this point, it sounds like the only way the Buick Cruze will be different is in badging. I'm glad to see that GM is going to go right back to their old habits pre-bankruptcy. Hopefully when they go down the second time we'll let them stay down.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 21:04 |
|
I don't think the transmission in the Cobalt SS/TC was any different from that of the regular SS or even the Cavalier - the Getrag F23 is a long-standing mainstay of the GM line. The "no lift shift" isn't so much a feature of the transmission as the ECU - the hacky implementations on some standalone/standback ECUs for Subarus, Mitsubishis, Mazdas, etc just set the rev limiter to an appropriate value while the clutch is depressed and thus prevent you from blowing up the motor by dumping the clutch while the gas pedal is floored - similar to stutterbox launch control. If I recall correctly, it was also added to the Solstice GXP with a flash. I agree with the rest of your points, though. GM advertises the Cruze in Canada with a lot of remarks regarding its touring car history, so at least they're not completely ignorant of the fact that people who are looking at it are already looking beyond "is a functional appliance car" or they would have already bought a Corolla. Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 7, 2011 |
# ? Mar 7, 2011 21:41 |
|
Coredump posted:Are you on the right forum? We have people who daily drive Lotus Elise's on here and we all seem to agree that's pretty awesome. there's more to cars than just how fast they go. If there weren't, shows like Top Gear wouldn't be so popular. We all appreciate fast cars, but some people appreciate other less quantifiable things in cars as well like style and perceived quality.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 22:28 |
|
Franco Caution posted:The base HHR was not fun at all for me when I had to drive one as a rental. I've driven a base that a friend owned, and a fully loaded model as a rental. I'm 6' tall, and my head is in the roof. Literally. I have to slouch in the seat to not have my head punching a hole in the roof. The power seat + sunroof seems to take away a ton of room, as I didn't have this issue in the base model (though I only had about an inch to spare - seriously, more room in a Miata). Throttle response? Speed? What the gently caress are those. Floored, I had to look at the tach to make sure the drat thing was even moving. gently caress that car. Also, I really like the Cruze...but wouldn't be interested at all unless the hatch comes over, or they release an SS version.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 23:07 |
|
Linedance posted:there's more to cars than just how fast they go. If there weren't, shows like Top Gear wouldn't be so popular. We all appreciate fast cars, but some people appreciate other less quantifiable things in cars as well like style and perceived quality. Yes I know there is more to cars than how fast they go. You're not looking at the context in which I made my statement. Autism Sundae was discounting the Cobalt SS because he said its a car that only does well when you look at its performance numbers. My point is, we have a lot of people on here who that's all they need. So for all us to cheer on Lotus Elise's being daily driven and then turn and discount the Cobalt SS is not congruent. They both have poo poo interiors. Both fall apart, as is evident with the guy who had a wheel fall off an Elise. In case you didn't catch that, his wheel FELL OFF. IT FELL THE gently caress OFF. Sorry, little blue collar thrown in there. So basically, I'm just raging that I'm hearing the "there's more to cars than just how fast they go argument" when the Cobalt SS is being discussed but I don't hear that with other fast less well rounded cars.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 23:11 |
|
bull3964 posted:The part about this that is silly is they are going to have a Buick Cruze variant. So, if they push the Chevy version too upmarket, they start stepping on their own toes. Nah, i think the ball is already rolling on the compact Buick, and the design's already been done in China I think. But Dan Ackerson was recently quoted as saying that they're spending too much in differentiated sheetmetal and that he thinks that they could differentiate models better with marketing instead of all that bother. Because it worked out so well last time. Also, you mentioned Chevy going too upmarket, and I was reminded of this opinion piece. The writer argues that starting in the 70s and 80s, "fake luxury" replaced "fake performance" as the way to sell cars, in part because of death of muscle cars due to the EPA and insurance companies. http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/04/29/avoidable-contact-11-how-fake-luxury-conquered-the-world/ Jack Baruth posted:And so, some time around 1970, the word went out that, from then on, all GM executives would drive cars from their own brand. I can only imagine that there were a lot of angry faces at the dinner tables of Oakland County when it all went down. Imagine, for a moment, that you are a Vice President at the Chevrolet Division of General Motors. As a GM executive, you lead an unbelievably pampered life. It’s been years since you purchased a car from a dealer, or vacuumed out your carpets, or even pumped your own gas. Instead, you have a top-of-the-line Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty Special or something similar, which is cleaned, serviced, and fueled during the day while you are working. In the evenings, you put on a dinner jacket, festoon your handsome, socially active wife with expensive jewels, and drive your brand-new Cadillac to posh dinner parties; on the weekends, you glide to church with your perfect children, a shining example of the American dream… Finally, I'd like to say that in defense of the Cobalt, the Cobalt Coupe actually was a decent looking little car if you ignored the shadow of the Cavalier that loomed above it. I rented one a few times. The proportions were conservative but respectable, although with just a tad too much front overhang, and there was nothing specifically objectionable about the styling. I thought the rear taillights were actually kind of fun and the rear end was fairly tidy, almost reminiscent of the Elise, actually. The sides were clean without pointless vents and character line frippery, the wheel arches decently contoured, and the front end, while clearly compromised in order to fit the FWD bits, but was at least not ridiculously tall like a modern one. The interior sucked, naturally, but it wasn't really worse than the contemporary Corolla. The design itself was exceedingly boring but at least inoffensive. The only reason people hate them is because they're associated with poor people and most people only have driven them as poverty-spec rental cars. If Toyota came out with the exact same car, people's opinions of the SS would be much better. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Mar 7, 2011 |
# ? Mar 7, 2011 23:36 |
|
Coredump posted:Yes I know there is more to cars than how fast they go. You're not looking at the context in which I made my statement. Autism Sundae was discounting the Cobalt SS because he said its a car that only does well when you look at its performance numbers. My point is, we have a lot of people on here who that's all they need. So for all us to cheer on Lotus Elise's being daily driven and then turn and discount the Cobalt SS is not congruent. They both have poo poo interiors. Both fall apart, as is evident with the guy who had a wheel fall off an Elise. In case you didn't catch that, his wheel FELL OFF. IT FELL THE gently caress OFF. Sorry, little blue collar thrown in there. the difference is the Lotus Elise looks loving cool.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 23:44 |
|
Coredump posted:Yes I know there is more to cars than how fast they go. You're not looking at the context in which I made my statement. Autism Sundae was discounting the Cobalt SS because he said its a car that only does well when you look at its performance numbers. My point is, we have a lot of people on here who that's all they need. So for all us to cheer on Lotus Elise's being daily driven and then turn and discount the Cobalt SS is not congruent. They both have poo poo interiors. Both fall apart, as is evident with the guy who had a wheel fall off an Elise. In case you didn't catch that, his wheel FELL OFF. IT FELL THE gently caress OFF. Sorry, little blue collar thrown in there. It's not really a valid comparison, the Elise isn't a comfy car nor is it advertised as such and you have to be a masochist or just not give a gently caress to DD one. The Cobalt SS is a fast four door sedan which it does exceedingly well but it still has a pretty atrocious interior. It's like how AI generally likes the corvette because its fast as poo poo but every time a thread comes up people whine about how it's interior isn't yet unicorn foreskin leather. Also the wheel didn't fall off, the toe arm anchor bolt snapped. That's bad engineering, not bad materials. Muffinpox fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Mar 7, 2011 |
# ? Mar 7, 2011 23:52 |
|
Cream_Filling posted:The idea that I have gleaned from interviews and the like is that GM wants to market the Cruze as an "upscale" compact car with a "big car feel" and an interest in "luxury" and economy over sportiness. Sorry that is ludicrous - the only way to market the Cruze is its bigger, cheaper and better equipped than the competition. This Aveo talk is interesting because the ones that came to the New Zealand market don't seem nearly so bad just painfully average. I wonder if it has more to do with where they're assembled than the car itself.
|
# ? Mar 7, 2011 23:59 |
|
Muffinpox posted:unicorn foreskin leather so that's what alcantara is!
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 00:02 |
|
dissss posted:Sorry that is ludicrous - the only way to market the Cruze is its bigger, cheaper and better equipped than the competition. Were the NZ ones made in Korea? What were they badged as? I know in AUS they were Holden Barinas. I mean the Aveo was bad, but keep in mind that it was developed in Korea in like 2000 and when it was first released there in 2002, Chevy America was still selling the Cavalier and had just stopped selling the Lumina. As a massive Big 3 apologist, and I want to say nice things about the new Chevy Sonic but I can't because it is ugly as balls and probably poo poo. And the name sucks, too. I mean, look at this thing: that is dogshit ugly. In so many different, terrible ways. It looks like you took the front end off a Dodge Charger, smashed it into a pugnose, then stick it on the back of a Corolla (also smashed). I mean the roofline isn't as atrocious as the "sedanified hatch" look of the previous Aveo, but it's still really oddly proportioned. And that front end is just horrifying at any angle. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Mar 8, 2011 |
# ? Mar 8, 2011 00:15 |
|
Yeah its a Barina but I have no idea where they're assembled. Also apart from the Chevy front that new one looks pretty good to me, what don't you like about it?
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 00:21 |
|
Cream_Filling posted:Were the NZ ones made in Korea? What were they badged as? I know in AUS they were Holden Barinas. Holy poo poo, who the gently caress thought it was a good idea to use a Pug as a design inspiration?
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 00:42 |
|
dissss posted:Yeah its a Barina but I have no idea where they're assembled. Yeah I mean to be fair the rest of the car isn't that bad. In particular, they do a decent job of making the sedan version look like a real sedan, as opposed to the often odd stuff they do to these other subcompacts to mash together hatch body panels into a sedan (see: the Ford Fiesta sedan). As a subcompact sedan, you're going to get some funky proportions, especially the teeny tiny deck/trunk/trunk opening. Hell, the trunk deck is actually half as long as the trunk is tall! The two rising parallel line character lines on the side look alright, although the upper one looks awkward just emerging from the front fender arch out of nowhere in a particularly ugly way. And, ha, I just noticed the tiny Hofmeister kink there but actually think it's a decent way of resolving the rear window in this case (especially considering how bad it can be in a subcompact sedan). The C pillar is alright and looks good from several angles. But that front end. My god. It's so bad I actually cringe when it comes to view on a 360 spin. I honestly think it ruins the whole car. The front quarter is a train wreck, with three massively tall contours fighting it out in one tortured mass of melty ugly. The lines from the hood-fender contour and the top of the fender just sort of... moosh together into a bland little strip before hitting the A pillar. The only positive thing is that the front overhang is under control. And that says nothing of the gross double opening Chevy grille, which still just refuses to look good at all to me. I mean I tried to like it, and it is striking, but it gets your attention by looking ugly, drat it. I tried to give it a chance since I do think that the standard front grille/lower air opening look is not the only possible front end, but it just refuses to gel for me. Just move the logo up about 5 inches and it would all look so much more normal. And what is going on with the taillights? Those things are just ugly by any standard. They look like melted gummi bears and the shapes make no sense at all. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Mar 8, 2011 |
# ? Mar 8, 2011 01:06 |
|
Well they're moving production from Korea to the old Cavalier/Cobalt plant at Lordstown, so you won't have to worry about the place of assembly anymore. The back of the sedan is a bit odd but the hatchback is pretty nice looking, I guess, let's hope the majority of people go for that one. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Mar 8, 2011 |
# ? Mar 8, 2011 01:41 |
|
iwentdoodie posted:Holy poo poo, who the gently caress thought it was a good idea to use a Pug as a design inspiration?
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 01:45 |
|
Creme_Filling, as an aside, I don't suppose you could recommend any books on describing automotive design, the language used and how it applies (with pictures and examples?). It's something I'm very interested in but I only have a layman's outlook. You seem pretty well informed. You can PM me if you like.
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 01:46 |
|
Muffinpox posted:It's not really a valid comparison, the Elise isn't a comfy car nor is it advertised as such and you have to be a masochist or just not give a gently caress to DD one. The Cobalt SS is a fast four door sedan which it does exceedingly well but it still has a pretty atrocious interior. It's like how AI generally likes the corvette because its fast as poo poo but every time a thread comes up people whine about how it's interior isn't yet unicorn foreskin leather. The comparison was cars whose only redeeming qualities are their driving performance. I think in comparison like that the Elise and Cobalt SS are valid. If one was going to be invalid it would be the Cobalt because you could actually use it as a real car day to day, which would only go further to invalidate the point some people were trying to make.
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 02:15 |
|
Cream_Filling posted:
I guess we'll have to see what the other versions look like. The front on the current US Aveo hatch is pretty similar and makes it look even worse than the already ugly Holden version. Throatwarbler posted:Well they're moving production from Korea to the old Cavalier/Cobalt plant at Lordstown, so you won't have to worry about the place of assembly anymore. Hmm I thought perhaps US production was the problem in the first place (as it is with Civics etc)
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 02:34 |
|
Coredump posted:The comparison was cars whose only redeeming qualities are their driving performance. I think in comparison like that the Elise and Cobalt SS are valid. If one was going to be invalid it would be the Cobalt because you could actually use it as a real car day to day, which would only go further to invalidate the point some people were trying to make. I think you're missing the part where one is unlivable because it's interior is an alumnium monocoque, carpets are extra, and a sill takes up half the drivers/passengers space and the other is unlivable because it has a lovely squeaky GM interior.
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 02:58 |
|
Its only a matter of perspective - a crappy squeaky interior isn't going to bother everyone to the same degree.
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 03:02 |
|
The Buick version is a rebadged Astra, it is quite a bit more upmarket and they always have the option of dropping in the 2.0T engine for a Gran Sport range topper. Although now that I've seen that great Toyota from the other thread, obviously they need to shoehorn in the 3.6l V6 from the Camaro for maximum FWD amusement. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Mar 8, 2011 |
# ? Mar 8, 2011 03:30 |
|
Linedance posted:Creme_Filling, as an aside, I don't suppose you could recommend any books on describing automotive design, the language used and how it applies (with pictures and examples?). It's something I'm very interested in but I only have a layman's outlook. You seem pretty well informed. You can PM me if you like. I'm just an interested lay observer who's read the occasional design critique. I wish I could help more. I'd also actually love to hear or get a thread from someone with formal automotive design training, as it's definitely an area of interest for me. All the books I know of are ridiculously overpriced textbooks, and even those tend to be out of date. All I can think of is this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_automotive_design
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 03:44 |
|
So is there a ragtop RS5 coming to North America? Arrival date/price/specs? Got a dearly loved E46 M3 cab that I want to replace by next summer but I need a ragtop for the trunk space.
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 04:06 |
|
Cream_Filling posted:That looks like a shorter, uglier version of my fifth generation Elantra. It's got the same theme of trying to sedanify a compact car, which isn't a bad idea when executed properly:
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 05:07 |
|
Cream_Filling posted:I mean, look at this thing: that is dogshit ugly. I don't know about "dogshit ugly", but it does look like an originally-longer car that's hit a wall and has become shorter.
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 16:42 |
|
Throatwarbler posted:The Buick version is a rebadged Astra, it is quite a bit more upmarket and they always have the option of dropping in the 2.0T engine for a Gran Sport range topper. This is a good looking interior.
|
# ? Mar 8, 2011 16:59 |
|
el topo posted:I don't know about "dogshit ugly", but it does look like an originally-longer car that's hit a wall and has become shorter. Thats a problem across almost all small sedans The new Polo looks decent in its promo shots but I'm guessing it'll end up a fair bit longer than the others:
|
# ? Mar 9, 2011 00:28 |
|
It's like that commercial where the guy grabs the bumper of his 370Z and stretches it into a Maxima.
|
# ? Mar 9, 2011 00:32 |
|
|
# ? May 11, 2024 16:24 |
|
The only awkward one there is the Swift sedan.
|
# ? Mar 9, 2011 00:32 |