Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

MR posts wisdom.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/falling-demand-for-brains/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/science/05legal.html?_r=1&ref=business

quote:

When five television studios became entangled in a Justice Department antitrust lawsuit against CBS, the cost was immense. As part of the obscure task of �discovery� � providing documents relevant to a lawsuit � the studios examined six million documents at a cost of more than $2.2 million, much of it to pay for a platoon of lawyers and paralegals who worked for months at high hourly rates.

But that was in 1978. Now, thanks to advances in artificial intelligence, �e-discovery� software can analyze documents in a fraction of the time for a fraction of the cost. In January, for example, Blackstone Discovery of Palo Alto, Calif., helped analyze 1.5 million documents for less than $100,000.

Some programs go beyond just finding documents with relevant terms at computer speeds. They can extract relevant concepts � like documents relevant to social protest in the Middle East � even in the absence of specific terms, and deduce patterns of behavior that would have eluded lawyers examining millions of documents.

�From a legal staffing viewpoint, it means that a lot of people who used to be allocated to conduct document review are no longer able to be billed out,� said Bill Herr, who as a lawyer at a major chemical company used to muster auditoriums of lawyers to read documents for weeks on end. �People get bored, people get headaches. Computers don�t.�

Computers are getting better at mimicking human reasoning � as viewers of �Jeopardy!� found out when they saw Watson beat its human opponents � and they are claiming work once done by people in high-paying professions. The number of computer chip designers, for example, has largely stagnated because powerful software programs replace the work once done by legions of logic designers and draftsmen.

Software is also making its way into tasks that were the exclusive province of human decision makers, like loan and mortgage officers and tax accountants.

These new forms of automation have renewed the debate over the economic consequences of technological progress.

David H. Autor, an economics professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, says the United States economy is being �hollowed out.� New jobs, he says, are coming at the bottom of the economic pyramid, jobs in the middle are being lost to automation and outsourcing, and now job growth at the top is slowing because of automation.

�There is no reason to think that technology creates unemployment,� Professor Autor said. �Over the long run we find things for people to do. The harder question is, does changing technology always lead to better jobs? The answer is no.�

Automation of higher-level jobs is accelerating because of progress in computer science and linguistics. Only recently have researchers been able to test and refine algorithms on vast data samples, including a huge trove of e-mail from the Enron Corporation.

�The economic impact will be huge,� said Tom Mitchell, chairman of the machine learning department at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh. �We�re at the beginning of a 10-year period where we�re going to transition from computers that can�t understand language to a point where computers can understand quite a bit about language.�

Nowhere are these advances clearer than in the legal world.

E-discovery technologies generally fall into two broad categories that can be described as �linguistic� and �sociological.�

The most basic linguistic approach uses specific search words to find and sort relevant documents. More advanced programs filter documents through a large web of word and phrase definitions. A user who types �dog� will also find documents that mention �man�s best friend� and even the notion of a �walk.�

The sociological approach adds an inferential layer of analysis, mimicking the deductive powers of a human Sherlock Holmes. Engineers and linguists at Cataphora, an information-sifting company based in Silicon Valley, have their software mine documents for the activities and interactions of people � who did what when, and who talks to whom. The software seeks to visualize chains of events. It identifies discussions that might have taken place across e-mail, instant messages and telephone calls.

Then the computer pounces, so to speak, capturing �digital anomalies� that white-collar criminals often create in trying to hide their activities.

For example, it finds �call me� moments � those incidents when an employee decides to hide a particular action by having a private conversation. This usually involves switching media, perhaps from an e-mail conversation to instant messaging, telephone or even a face-to-face encounter.

�It doesn�t use keywords at all,� said Elizabeth Charnock, Cataphora�s founder. �But it�s a means of showing who leaked information, who�s influential in the organization or when a sensitive document like an S.E.C. filing is being edited an unusual number of times, or an unusual number of ways, by an unusual type or number of people.�

The Cataphora software can also recognize the sentiment in an e-mail message � whether a person is positive or negative, or what the company calls �loud talking� � unusual emphasis that might give hints that a document is about a stressful situation. The software can also detect subtle changes in the style of an e-mail communication.

A shift in an author�s e-mail style, from breezy to unusually formal, can raise a red flag about illegal activity.

�You tend to split a lot fewer infinitives when you think the F.B.I. might be reading your mail,� said Steve Roberts, Cataphora�s chief technology officer.

Another e-discovery company in Silicon Valley, Clearwell, has developed software that analyzes documents to find concepts rather than specific keywords, shortening the time required to locate relevant material in litigation.

Last year, Clearwell software was used by the law firm DLA Piper to search through a half-million documents under a court-imposed deadline of one week. Clearwell�s software analyzed and sorted 570,000 documents (each document can be many pages) in two days. The law firm used just one more day to identify 3,070 documents that were relevant to the court-ordered discovery motion.

Clearwell�s software uses language analysis and a visual way of representing general concepts found in documents to make it possible for a single lawyer to do work that might have once required hundreds.

�The catch here is information overload,� said Aaref A. Hilaly, Clearwell�s chief executive. �How do you zoom in to just the specific set of documents or facts that are relevant to the specific question? It�s not about search; it�s about sifting, and that�s what e-discovery software enables.�

For Neil Fraser, a lawyer at Milberg, a law firm based in New York, the Cataphora software provides a way to better understand the internal workings of corporations he sues, particularly when the real decision makers may be hidden from view.

He says the software allows him to find the ex-Pfc. Wintergreens in an organization � a reference to a lowly character in the novel �Catch-22� who wielded great power because he distributed mail to generals and was able to withhold it or dispatch it as he saw fit.

Such tools owe a debt to an unlikely, though appropriate, source: the electronic mail database known as the Enron Corpus.

In October 2003, Andrew McCallum, a computer scientist at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, read that the federal government had a collection of more than five million messages from the prosecution of Enron.

He bought a copy of the database for $10,000 and made it freely available to academic and corporate researchers. Since then, it has become the foundation of a wealth of new science � and its value has endured, since privacy constraints usually keep large collections of e-mail out of reach. �It�s made a massive difference in the research community,� Dr. McCallum said.

The Enron Corpus has led to a better understanding of how language is used and how social networks function, and it has improved efforts to uncover social groups based on e-mail communication.

Now artificial intelligence software has taken a seat at the negotiating table.

Two months ago, Autonomy, an e-discovery company based in Britain, worked with defense lawyers in a lawsuit brought against a large oil and gas company. The plaintiffs showed up during a pretrial negotiation with a list of words intended to be used to help select documents for use in the lawsuit.

�The plaintiffs asked for 500 keywords to search on,� said Mike Sullivan, chief executive of Autonomy Protect, the company�s e-discovery division.

In response, he said, the defense lawyers used those words to analyze their own documents during the negotiations, and those results helped them bargain more effectively, Mr. Sullivan said.

Some specialists acknowledge that the technology has limits. �The documents that the process kicks out still have to be read by someone,� said Herbert L. Roitblat of OrcaTec, a consulting firm in Altanta.

Quantifying the employment impact of these new technologies is difficult. Mike Lynch, the founder of Autonomy, is convinced that �legal is a sector that will likely employ fewer, not more, people in the U.S. in the future.� He estimated that the shift from manual document discovery to e-discovery would lead to a manpower reduction in which one lawyer would suffice for work that once required 500 and that the newest generation of software, which can detect duplicates and find clusters of important documents on a particular topic, could cut the head count by another 50 percent.

The computers seem to be good at their new jobs. Mr. Herr, the former chemical company lawyer, used e-discovery software to reanalyze work his company�s lawyers did in the 1980s and �90s. His human colleagues had been only 60 percent accurate, he found.

�Think about how much money had been spent to be slightly better than a coin toss,� he said.

McCallum was one of my professors at UMass. I will make sure to thank him for helping to destroy your jobs.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:12

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 15:19

Residency Evil: Jul 28, 2003; 4/5 godo... Schumi

Attn Petey: You need to find the girl at MIT I just talked to. I just got the yearly alum donation call and the girl on the other line told me she was thinking about going. Told me people have tried to dissuade her but that it makes here want to go even more.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:35

Martin Random: Jul 18, 2003; by FactsAreUseless

Petey, a chilling article. It's true that advances in technology have heavily impacted the demand for electrical engineers. Job growth for this designation in the US is anticipated to be either stagnant or negative over the next ten years. I'm jumping from the law to engineering and wondering whether I'm going to be making a good decision or doing the equivalent of running from one room in a burning building to another.

Whatever happens, I know that I loving hate being a lawyer, so anything that's not that is fine by me.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:39

i81icu812: Dec 5, 2006

MoFauxHawk posted:

Wow, thank you so much for mentioning that there's a library science thread. Now I have a way to convince my sister not to get that master's without her hating me.

Also good job making the same obvious joke that two other people have already made.

Library Science School is like is like Law School, except the pay ceiling is minuscule if you do find a job.

Also cats and tote bags.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:41

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

Martin Random posted:

Petey, a chilling article. It's true that advances in technology have heavily impacted the demand for electrical engineers. Job growth for this designation in the US is anticipated to be either stagnant or negative over the next ten years. I'm jumping from the law to engineering and wondering whether I'm going to be making a good decision or doing the equivalent of running from one room in a burning building to another.

Whatever happens, I know that I loving hate being a lawyer, so anything that's not that is fine by me.

Godspeed, Martin Random. I'm thinking of making the jump to gay male vampirism myself.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 00:43

MoFauxHawk: Jan 1, 2007; Mickey Mouse copyright
Walt Gisnep

Ainsley McTree posted:

I'm not sure if you were referring to me or making a reference to the paralegal-to-lawyer talk above but this is word-for-word description of how I got my job

Both. The point was to put Slyfrog in the hopeful paralegal's kind of position in order to get his dream job using the example of the guy in the thread who has that job. WAY TO MAKE ME EXPLAIN

# ? Mar 7, 2011 01:07

Feces Starship: Nov 11, 2008; in the great green room
goodnight moon

The point about selling of prestige is dead-on. It's also the reason that some firms during the boom times made MORE money by RAISING prices.

Retaining a prestigious law firm is an example of conspicuous consumption for a corporation, just like paying The Most in CEO salaries. Veblen says "what up."

Of course, what's disturbing about all of this is that it's a system that plays very precisely to evolutionary/emotional truths about people and society. It has worked well and continues to work well.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 01:12

Petey: Nov 26, 2005; For who knows what is good for a person in life, during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

Ainsley McTree posted:

Junior copywriting is pretty sweet, yeah. Friday was my busiest day ever but I still got to go home by 5 (well 6, but 6 is my normal going home time so "home by 5" is what we say about that situation). I actually had to work through my lunch break, it was crazy.

But yeah I really can't believe how crazy lucky I got with getting this job. I hope they decide not to get rid of it!

See this is how I feel but without having gone to law school in the first place. My work is a little more variably intense (60-70 hours/wk some months, less others), but I know what you mean.

Talked my little brother's GF out of law school yesterday night too. Looking out for the future in-laws.

e: add this to OP for future tiechat

Petey fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Mar 7, 2011

# ? Mar 7, 2011 03:05

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

Petey posted:

See this is how I feel but without having gone to law school in the first place. My work is a little more variably intense (60-70 hours/wk some months, less others), but I know what you mean.

Talked my little brother's GF out of law school yesterday night too. Looking out for the future in-laws.

e: add this to OP for future tiechat

I wanna do this for halloween this year but I can't think of a way to do it without spilling booze on all my ties

edit: well I guess I could just buy more ties

# ? Mar 7, 2011 07:15

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Ainsley McTree posted:

I wanna do this for halloween this year but I can't think of a way to do it without spilling booze on all my ties

edit: well I guess I could just buy more ties

$5 cheapass ties from wallyworld
Bonus for novelty ties.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 07:43

zynga dot com: Nov 11, 2001; wtf jill im not a bear!!!

A dossier and a state of melted brains: The Jess campaign has it all.

Petey posted:

computers

Getting my JD has made me pretty bitter (a given) so now that I'm in CS I kind of feel like trying to help destroy law. I wonder if this is what supervillans feel like when they change career paths.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 09:15

Alaemon: Jan 4, 2009; Proctors are guardians of the sanctity and integrity of legal education, therefore they are responsible for the nourishment of the soul.

So I've been playing this Twitter game Echo Bazaar (which is good and check out the thread and look me up in-game, etc). I just got the opportunity to "Scrutinse Infernal Contracts." A few quotes:

quote:

The Brass Embassy is so tangled in paperwork that Hell itself is recruiting temporary staff to handle the backlog

quote:

A bespectacled devil locks you into a stifling, windowless room, stacked with reams of ribbon-tied parchment.

It is at this point that I begin to suspect that the video game is trolling me. I have a JD, and even in a nightmarish alternate London the only work is doing doc review for Hell.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 21:15

_areaman: Oct 28, 2009

Martin Random posted:

Petey, a chilling article. It's true that advances in technology have heavily impacted the demand for electrical engineers. Job growth for this designation in the US is anticipated to be either stagnant or negative over the next ten years. I'm jumping from the law to engineering and wondering whether I'm going to be making a good decision or doing the equivalent of running from one room in a burning building to another.

Whatever happens, I know that I loving hate being a lawyer, so anything that's not that is fine by me.

Go for computer science instead of electrical engineering. The demand for good software developers is strong.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 21:23

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Oh man, so I'm actually going to get paid to lawyer starting very soon.
(And possibly in federal court!)

Don't go to law school.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 22:11

Martin Random: Jul 18, 2003; by FactsAreUseless

_areaman posted:

Go for computer science instead of electrical engineering. The demand for good software developers is strong.

I'm going for Mechanical Engineering. I don't think computer science is the wisest move. Then again, I don't think anything is the wisest move in this economy, except maybe highly trained private mercenary. The security business is, and will be booming, as a greater portion of our GDP is gradually shifted to population suppression.

# ? Mar 7, 2011 22:41

gvibes: Jan 18, 2010; Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)

Unless you can get opposing counsel to agree, relying on software categorization of documents is going to get you hammered, particularly on privilege waiver issues.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 01:09

JudicialRestraints: Oct 26, 2007; Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

Hey guys, I got an e-mail

rejection letter posted:

Our last outstanding offer was accepted on Friday last week and I wanted to let you know. Only 3 persons out of 30 ranked higher than you on my scoring system of resume, grades, cover letter, and experience. You also did very well in responding to the three questions in the interview. You�d be an asset to any office. I was seriously considering you if our two initial offers were turned down. Hope things turn out well for you from other interviews. Oh, another unsolicited tip, make sure all of your references are going to be really, really positive, enthusiastic. There is sometimes a difference in tone when we check references � sure it�s kind of subjective but everything counts. Best wishes.

Even if there are jobs, your references will backstab you and leave you to die in a gutter, alone.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 02:21

billion dollar bitch: Jul 20, 2005; To drink and fight.
To fuck all night.

I was told that I was beaten to a job by a kid who interned for a federal judge and who put down all the other clerks as his references. They said that as a 1L he was doing a better job than they were as clerks.

gently caress this oversaturated career choice.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 03:29

Mattavist: May 24, 2003

_areaman posted:

Go for computer science instead of electrical engineering. The demand for good software developers is strong.

What happened to the demand for electrical engineers? 6 months ago the thread wouldn't shut up about them, but maybe that was just PTO slots.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 03:44

HiddenReplaced: Apr 21, 2007; Yeah...
it's wanking time.

JudicialRestraints posted:

Hey guys, I got an e-mail

Even if there are jobs, your references will backstab you and leave you to die in a gutter, alone.

How many references did you give and can you guess which one actually hates you?

# ? Mar 8, 2011 04:23

srsly: Aug 1, 2003

gvibes posted:

Unless you can get opposing counsel to agree, relying on software categorization of documents is going to get you hammered, particularly on privilege waiver issues.

This is exactly what I was going to say.

This might make arbitration even more compelling if it can be agreed to ahead of time, but I can't for the life of me imagine two parties already in litigation agreeing to keep costs down by using computerized classifications. I know which way their lawyers are probably going to advise them on that proposition...

# ? Mar 8, 2011 04:31

srsly: Aug 1, 2003

nm posted:

Oh man, so I'm actually going to get paid to lawyer starting very soon.
(And possibly in federal court!)

Don't go to law school.

This is so hilariously different than saying you got a job. This reads more like handling your visiting aunt's slip and fall on a $500 retainer from your dad. And your first job is scoping out the disabled access at the federal and county courthouses so she can tell you where to file.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 04:35

Defleshed: Nov 18, 2004; F is for... FREEDOM

Alaemon posted:

It is at this point that I begin to suspect that the video game is trolling me. I have a JD, and even in a nightmarish alternate London the only work is doing doc review for Hell.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Demonic+Attorney
I'm a nerd!

# ? Mar 8, 2011 04:48

Roger_Mudd: Jul 18, 2003; Buglord

JudicialRestraints posted:

Hey guys, I got an e-mail

Even if there are jobs, your references will backstab you and leave you to die in a gutter, alone.

Well, he did say his dog just died but I didn't really feel any excitement for JR compared to the other folks references.

God I hate the "interview process".

# ? Mar 8, 2011 05:31

_areaman: Oct 28, 2009

diospadre posted:

What happened to the demand for electrical engineers? 6 months ago the thread wouldn't shut up about them, but maybe that was just PTO slots.

I don't know anything about EE but I do know that in March 2011 you can throw a dart on a US map and find a software engineering job

# ? Mar 8, 2011 05:59

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

JudicialRestraints posted:

Hey guys, I got an e-mail

Even if there are jobs, your references will backstab you and leave you to die in a gutter, alone.

That is really obnoxious advice. What are you supposed to do with that information?

"...and so I was wondering if I could use you as a reference?"

"Of course, I'd be happy to!"

"Ok, great! So let's just run through it a couple times, I need to make sure you really sell this. I'll be the interviewer and you pretend I'm calling you to check my ref-"

"Hey, you know, nevermind"

# ? Mar 8, 2011 06:02

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

mrtoodles posted:

This is so hilariously different than saying you got a job. This reads more like handling your visiting aunt's slip and fall on a $500 retainer from your dad. And your first job is scoping out the disabled access at the federal and county courthouses so she can tell you where to file.

No, its a job (with a high-end criminal defense attorney), but it is part time so I don't consider that as "real" even though I'll make a living wageish.
By the way, someone in the PD's office is looking for an IP attorney.

nm fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Mar 8, 2011

# ? Mar 8, 2011 06:45

topheryan: Jul 29, 2004

Well, here's a tough one:

full ride at Chicago (or any other of the scholarship matching T14s), or maybe five grand a year at HLS/SLS?

# ? Mar 8, 2011 09:35

srsly: Aug 1, 2003

edit: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What kind of law do you want to practice? Bigbucks I can pay off an extra six figures of student loan debt law? Or something a bit saner? Yeah yeah IBR and all, but $120k in student loan debt is like $1400/month to repay at a normal schedule. I got a free ride to both undergrad and law school, and the loans for living expenses and books and stuff cost me $900+/month. I cringe to think what they'd be if I paid tuition.

nm posted:

No, its a job (with a high-end criminal defense attorney),

There's only like 5 of those in town, imho. Good luck.

quote:

By the way, someone in the PD's office is looking for an IP attorney.

They almost certainly can't afford me

You know they're looking because somebody sent a referral request to the office mailing list. Referral requests go out on a regular basis in every law office, mine included. The most common referral request in my office is for "a reasonably priced IP attorney." And we have a few dozen IP attorneys in the office.

Anyhow, I think the most common request for "IP attorney" is to register a trademark (which you don't have to be an attorney to do) and to draft a license agreement (which you don't have to be an attorney to do).

Now if they have a slam-dunk patent claim against one of the few big tech companies we don't represent... they should call me

srsly fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Mar 8, 2011

# ? Mar 8, 2011 09:48

Linguica: Jul 13, 2000; You're already dead

MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:

Well, here's a tough one:

full ride at Chicago (or any other of the scholarship matching T14s), or maybe five grand a year at HLS/SLS?

I would take the full ride at Chicago. But that's just me.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 09:53

srsly: Aug 1, 2003

Linguica posted:

I would take the full ride at Chicago. But that's just me.

2/3 scholarship at Loyola LA or sticker at Michigan?

# ? Mar 8, 2011 09:58

topheryan: Jul 29, 2004

Linguica posted:

I would take the full ride at Chicago. But that's just me.

But why? I guess if I wanted to live and practice in Chicago it would be more appealing, but I've been to Chicago a few times, I don't want to live there. Sticker price at HLS/SLS is steep, but unless the legal field completely and absolutely collapses, repayment isn't really an issue. Both claim that something like 95% of their students are fully paid off in eight or so years, and have strong loan repayment assistance programs.

I guess my perspective is that if the legal market truly is that bad, HLS/SLS offer the necessary protections against those influences, and Chicago probably doesn't. But I doubt there's any real good answer for this decision. The thread seems fairly split on just how terrible hiring is going to be in the next few years. Some people seem to think even CCN is bleak, others don't.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 10:03

Leif.: Mar 27, 2005; Son of the Defender
Formerly Diplomaticus/SWATJester

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3234974&pagenumber=26&perpage=40#post388981572 am I wrong here? I mean i know that thread is terrible but am I missing something?

# ? Mar 8, 2011 13:43

Feces Starship: Nov 11, 2008; in the great green room
goodnight moon

MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:

But why? I guess if I wanted to live and practice in Chicago it would be more appealing, but I've been to Chicago a few times, I don't want to live there. Sticker price at HLS/SLS is steep, but unless the legal field completely and absolutely collapses, repayment isn't really an issue. Both claim that something like 95% of their students are fully paid off in eight or so years, and have strong loan repayment assistance programs.

I guess my perspective is that if the legal market truly is that bad, HLS/SLS offer the necessary protections against those influences, and Chicago probably doesn't. But I doubt there's any real good answer for this decision. The thread seems fairly split on just how terrible hiring is going to be in the next few years. Some people seem to think even CCN is bleak, others don't.

This is a tough one. I don't think you'd be wrong to choose either of these.

Based on the things I've heard (THIS IS NOT IRONCLAD DATA AND IS JUST AN OPINION SUPPORTED BY A LOOSE PASTICHE OF STRUNG TOGETHER ANECDOTES), Chicago is beginning to breach the "this might not be a bad idea to go" horizon. On the other hand, both Stanford and Harvard are probably on the "this probably can't end badly for you" zone.

Here's the question that will matter - does your Chicago scholarship cover the total cost of attendance, or just tuition? If it's the latter, definitely go to Harvard. If it's the former... urgh then I think it's just a personal choice based on your preferences about where you want to live and work.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 14:05

10-8: Oct 2, 2003; Level 14 Bureaucrat

MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:

But why? I guess if I wanted to live and practice in Chicago it would be more appealing, but I've been to Chicago a few times, I don't want to live there. Sticker price at HLS/SLS is steep, but unless the legal field completely and absolutely collapses, repayment isn't really an issue. Both claim that something like 95% of their students are fully paid off in eight or so years, and have strong loan repayment assistance programs.

I guess my perspective is that if the legal market truly is that bad, HLS/SLS offer the necessary protections against those influences, and Chicago probably doesn't. But I doubt there's any real good answer for this decision. The thread seems fairly split on just how terrible hiring is going to be in the next few years. Some people seem to think even CCN is bleak, others don't.

I'd go to Chicago. What happens if you end up hating law, or just hating biglaw? Even with a HLS degree you're still going to be a slave to the firm for the next ten years. With a Chicago degree, you're about 90% as employable and you are beholden to no one. If you decide you want to work biglaw for a couple years so you can buy your sailboat, the legal market is not so bad that a Chicago grad is going to be totally unemployable. And then, when you decide you hate biglaw after two years, you'll have a decent emergency fund in the bank and can go open a bowling alley law firm in your rural hometown.

Edit: Feces Starship is right -- if your Chicago scholarship isn't all-inclusive, go to Harvard. Whether you graduate with $60,000 or $120,000 in debt, you'll still have to be a wage slave to pay it off, so you might as well get the Harvard degree.

Edit 2: Plus, if you go to Chicago, you can be one of those annoying 1L dicks who finds a way to drop "Well, I got into HLS/SLS but chose Chicago." into every conversation. Think of the possibilities!

# ? Mar 8, 2011 15:05

JudicialRestraints: Oct 26, 2007; Are you a LAWYER? Because I'll have you know I got GOOD GRADES in LAW SCHOOL last semester. Don't even try to argue THE LAW with me.

Re: references I'm pretty sure I know who it was. S/he was mad that I took a day off with less than a week's notice to go to a very good friend's funeral after he died suddenly (drowning).

Law.

# ? Mar 8, 2011 17:14

Soothing Vapors: Mar 26, 2006; Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

JudicialRestraints posted:

Re: references I'm pretty sure I know who it was. S/he was mad that I took a day off with less than a week's notice to go to a very good friend's funeral after he died suddenly (drowning).

Law.

If you want to work out some sort of Strangers on a Train murder exchange scenario, I'm down

# ? Mar 8, 2011 17:44

Linguica: Jul 13, 2000; You're already dead

10-8 posted:

Edit 2: Plus, if you go to Chicago, you can be one of those annoying 1L dicks who finds a way to drop "Well, I got into HLS/SLS but chose Chicago." into every conversation. Think of the possibilities!

I wanted the rigor that only Chicago can provide

# ? Mar 8, 2011 19:04

Did you actually get a full ride to Chicago? At least before this year, Chicago was one of the T14's that simply doesn't give full rides. I think T6 full ride beats H and S. Lower T14 full ride vs. H or S is a tougher choice and depends a lot on your personal goals. But if you can scrounge up a way to pay for living expenses and come out of a top law school with no debt, that's a pretty huge load off your back.

Also unless somebody says "full ride + living expenses/stipend" you can assume they mean a full tuition ride, because that's what a full scholarship is. Full scholarships with stipends at the T14 are absurdly rare, if they even happen.

I would still easily take Yale over anything except Columbia full ride, and even then I'd probably take Yale.

Edit: But if you pick Harvard or Stanford over a T6 full ride, I don't think it's a bad choice. I don't think you're going wrong either way.

MoFauxHawk fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Mar 8, 2011

# ? Mar 8, 2011 19:45

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 15:19

MoFauxHawk posted:

Did you actually get a full ride to Chicago? At least before this year, Chicago was one of the T14's that simply doesn't give full rides.

Well holy poo poo.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/node/3762

"The Law School is very excited about the David M. Rubenstein Scholars Program, established with a gift to the University for the Law School to fund 60 full-tuition scholarships over three years. These scholarships are predominantly merit-based and will be awarded beginning with the Class of 2014 starting in fall 2011."

20 free full rides per year will help Chicago's numbers a bit. Congrats on getting one of them if you did.

Edit: Also this could be you!

"David M. Rubenstein, '73, made his generous $10 million gift to the Law School for two reasons: to help the Law School compete for the very best students and to provide worthy law students the kind of financial head start he also was given. Rubenstein attended the Law School on a full-tuition scholarship, which lifted the burden of paying for law school from his parents and enabled him to follow a nontraditional career path after graduation. As a result, he built the experience and connections that led to him becoming one of the most successful businessmen in the United States. He is the founder of The Carlyle Group, one of the world's largest private equity firms, and is an influential philanthropist, spreading his wealth in ways that have tremendous immediate impact. Rubenstein's gift will change the lives of dozens of law students and will raise the Law School's stature among its peer institutions, a benefit to the entire Law School community."

MoFauxHawk fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 8, 2011

# ? Mar 8, 2011 19:57

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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