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jake1357 posted:If you're going to take a biglaw job because you need to then I don't see how Harvard could possibly be the superior choice. Most V10 firms don't pay any more than most V100 firms. What substantial difference exists between Harvard and Chicago in the career outcomes of their biglaw-bound graduates? And how is that difference worth 120,000 + 7% interest? jake1357 posted:Harvard likely has somewhat more opportunities for becoming a professor, clerking for an elite judge/justice, or finding a non-law job... I also disagree with you about what you say here: jake1357 posted:But unless you're pretty sure you in fact want to do one of those things it seems pretty crazy to spend the extra money. Spending an extra 120k on law school because you *might* decide at the end you actually don't want to be a lawyer is not rational. Plus it's not like Chicago is a TTT; the career opportunities there are probably pretty OK too... $120k is a lot of money but, like Petey says, this is a difference of degree, and not of kind. From a biglaw perspective $120k is a difference of 1 to 2 years of extra work. If he's going to have to do biglaw anyway, I think it's worth committing to the extra time in exchange for the opportunities that Harvard brings. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Mar 10, 2011 |
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Mar 10, 2011 06:12
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It is not only Cornell, but that's the only T14 that has sent her one. She says that it wasn't a rebate thing for her, they actually didn't charge her at all when she submitted through the LSAC website. The letter did mention the rebate system though.
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Mar 10, 2011 06:14
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Zealous Abattoir posted:It is not only Cornell, but that's the only T14 that has sent her one. She says that it wasn't a rebate thing for her, they actually didn't charge her at all when she submitted through the LSAC website. The letter did mention the rebate system though. Maybe they fixed their terrible rebate situation, as they did charge me when I applied a few months ago. So yeah, with that in mind, she may have a chance with Cornell simply because they seem to be slow with their review process. It's hard to say, but when it comes to URMs, schools definitely send fee waivers to URMs they still aren't going to likely admit, just to get a better URM pool to choose from. Diversity goes a long way, but if Cornell is the best school to offer a fee waiver, she probably shouldn't get her hopes up about Cornell specifically.
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Mar 10, 2011 06:31
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joat mon posted:OK, I'll bite. What's the ultimate defense attorney job? One of those white collar criminal defense jobs where all you have to do is talk boringly about the facts of the case and the jury gets so confused that they acquit Then you go home to fall asleep onto a pile of money
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Mar 10, 2011 07:04
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Ersatz posted:From a biglaw perspective $120k is a difference of 1 to 2 years of extra work. A year or two on top of the original year or two is a lot of years if you don't like what you do, plus, I think that's being optimistic. A $160k salary is really only ~$100k after taxes for your typical single young person, and that's without contributing to retirement, medical benefits, etc. (at least if you go the NYC route vs. say, Texas). Add in the fact that those big cities with high salaries typically aren't cheap and pretty much nobody is throwing $60k per year at their loans, much less $120k. Even with a salary bump as a second year or the new normal bonus, it's still not going to be easy to hit those numbers.
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Mar 10, 2011 07:10
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Ainsley McTree posted:One of those white collar criminal defense jobs where all you have to do is talk boringly about the facts of the case and the jury gets so confused that they acquit
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Mar 10, 2011 07:17
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So I have an interview tomorrow morning for a human rights job... which if I don't get, I will default to my international human rights job... check and mate, law school thread, check and mate.And not only that, but I get some real life lawyerin' to do right now!! My roommate skipped town and skipped out on the rent, so I get to represent myself in small claims court!!!  He did drop out of law school fast enough to get a refund on his loans, though. So on some cosmic level he's already won.
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Mar 10, 2011 08:38
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Direwolf posted:So I have an interview tomorrow morning for a human rights job... which if I don't get, I will default to my international human rights job... Man like every few months somebody in law school posts about their temporary international law/human rights job. Come back when they give you a permanent offer and then you can say you're a special snowflake panda. Congrats/good luck though.
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Mar 10, 2011 09:17
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:Fee waivers for this cycle? I think a lot of that is LSAC automated based on LSAT score and ethnicity. So, yeah, it means they're interested, but probably doesn't mean they're actually interested in her this late in the cycle. And just as a note, Cornell's fee waiver is dumb and basically works like a rebate. I remember that Harvard had a rebate fee waiver system too.
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Mar 10, 2011 13:15
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I think that folks are not understanding ersatz and I (or perhaps we are not communicating well). Assume Chicago 'free ride' costs 60k in COL and harvard with some money costs 180k for a 120k delta between the two. 120k with interest is a big difference. But it is a difference of degree, not of kind. Folks are acting like with Chicago he will be comparatively free and easy because hey full scholarship. but that is not the case. I am saying that 60k in debt is still sufficient to burden you with the same calculus as 180k, at least at the outset. This is especially true with IBR since no matter which package he takes he will have the same (or comparable) monthly rate, just a longer payoff times, which may or may not matter on the timescale you're talking about. I think MMBD will do well at either place. If it were me - given my interest in cyberlaw, academia, etc - I'd pick hls in a heartbeat. No question. But Chicago is not an unreasonable choice for those with other preferences. I'm just trying to make the point that in terms of how it will actually affect his life following graduation the difference in likely loan burdens is not as grew as it initially appears.
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Mar 10, 2011 14:24
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LRAP plans need to be a part of the equation. I don't know about Chicago's, but Harvard's rocks and helps pay even if you're in a situation where you're not doing legal work. Also cosigned with Petey. Harvard is clearly the right choice here.
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Mar 10, 2011 16:12
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Petey posted:I think that folks are not understanding ersatz and I (or perhaps we are not communicating well). According to the Harvard financial aid site, their student budget is more like $72k per year including expenses, etc. Minus $5k/yr = $201K, not $180K. And I can personally attest that you do not need $20K in Chicago to cover COL, unless you're like that retarded guy from that NYT article who wanted to put a down payment on an apartment with his loan money. I'm also going to throw out there that you don't actually have to live in Hyde Park. There are express buses from Lakeview, the South Loop, etc. and if you have a car, it's easy as hell to get down there within 20-30 mins from most places in the city. I think the big issue here is that MMBD hasn't said whether (s)he wants to clerk (actually relatively easy at Chicago, though definitely easier at Harvard), whether (s)he wants to do BigLaw (Chicago constantly dominates those lists), or whether (s)he wants to go into academia/PI (in which case definitely go to HLS). Firms are weird - they like collecting students from as many of the top schools as possible. Last year alone, my firm had ~20 summers and we covered Chicago, Yale, Harvard, Cal, Stanford, and Columbia. Chicago is a better city than Boston, what the poo poo are you guys talking about
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Mar 10, 2011 16:47
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Petey posted:I think that folks are not understanding ersatz and I (or perhaps we are not communicating well). Yeah, but you don't want to be a lawyer Petey. You want to do biggayinternetlaw. If MMBTD wants to actually be a lawyer/not academia, then the 120k in tuition savings will likely translate to $800k+ in extra earnings over his lifetime. IMO this is trading 120k for the potential to be an academic superstar at HLS and open up some truly unique opportunities. Median is the same at both schools (maybe better to be at Chicago) and being at the top of either school is obviously fantastic. I don't really see what you gain at HLS that you wouldn't have at Chicago besides lay prestige.
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Mar 10, 2011 17:33
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Omerta posted:Median is the same at both schools (maybe better to be at Chicago) No matter what the charts say, I don't believe this. Harvard is much harder to get into than Chicago for a reason. If Chicago has better biglaw numbers than Harvard, I don't think it's because Harvard students aren't able to get as many biglaw positions. And bottom 30% of the class at Harvard is definitely better than bottom 30% of the class at Chicago, and somebody has to occupy those spots. But if you do go to Harvard and it turns out that you would have done biglaw from either school, if we assume a $120k difference and that you make $180k per year your first couple years including bonus, you're going to have to work somewhere around 2800 physically and emotionally draining biglaw hours to pay that extra debt back. So you do have to decide whether the likely possibility of that huge number of hours of pointless feeling work is worth going to a moderately better school. If you end up in the federal government or public interest though, because of the ten year discharge of debt with IBR, the difference between outcomes will be much smaller and then you'll be glad you chose Harvard if it helped you get that job.
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Mar 10, 2011 18:56
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MoFauxHawk posted:No matter what the charts say, I don't believe this. Harvard is much harder to get into than Chicago for a reason. If Chicago has better biglaw numbers than Harvard, I don't think it's because Harvard students aren't able to get as many biglaw positions. And bottom 30% of the class at Harvard is definitely better than bottom 30% of the class at Chicago, and somebody has to occupy those spots. Also, and I don't know HLS's program (LRAP, I think), but a lot of schools will contribute to your loan repayment if you work in public interest and/or make below a certain amount. I know at Yale, if you make below 100k the school contributes to your loan repayment and under 60k they take over your loans entirely.
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Mar 10, 2011 19:03
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Feces Starship posted:I remember that Harvard had a rebate fee waiver system too. Yeah, this is true, but HYS waivers are only request need-based. Cornell's was merit, and yet it was a rebate-type. I didn't think the Chicago v. HLS/SLS choice would spark so much debate. I didn't expect to be accepted to schools ranking so well in the T14, so my plans have changed a bit. I originally wanted to maybe clerk then shoot for some sort of California biglaw, as I was originally thinking Berkeley, but HLS seems like it could make getting a good federal/PI job possible. Harvard's LRAP would then likely kick in, and that 180-200k~ wouldn't be so bad. At this point though I think I'm mostly just trying to justify to myself saying no to a great deal of money. I really don't think I'll go with Chicago but it has been worth some serious consideration. Harvard doesn't even give out more than around 20K~ (I think) in scholarships per year, and yet their students seem to be doing alright, so the debt probably isn't as frightening as it seems given that it's attached to an HLS degree.
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Mar 10, 2011 20:39
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:Yeah, this is true, but HYS waivers are only request need-based. Cornell's was merit, and yet it was a rebate-type. Yeah, why is this? You say you've looked at TLS and I think LSN, but if that's true then you should have known from the start that your numbers were virtually auto-accept for Harvard. Did you have some black spot on your record you were worried about? Good luck with Yale, assuming you haven't been rejected, you should have a good shot.
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Mar 10, 2011 21:30
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MoFauxHawk posted:Yeah, why is this? You say you've looked at TLS and I think LSN, but if that's true then you should have known from the start that your numbers were virtually auto-accept for Harvard. Did you have some black spot on your record you were worried about? Good luck with Yale, assuming you haven't been rejected, you should have a good shot. I knew my numbers were good for HLS and okay for SLS/YLS, but I applied quite late and my undergrad university is mostly a no-name public. SLS also sent me some sample resumes, and mine is pathetic in comparison. My softs are political and I chose a somewhat risky topic for my personal statement, so with all that weighted in I figured my HYS odds were slim. I'm almost certain I won't get into Yale. Also is yield protect actually a real thing, because I just got waitlisted at BU. I always figured yield protect was just some bogus TLS "oh don't feel bad you got yield protected" sort of thing.
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Mar 10, 2011 21:47
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:Yeah, this is true, but HYS waivers are only request need-based. Cornell's was merit, and yet it was a rebate-type. Honestly, for good federal and PI stuff, SLS and HLS are probably interchangeable. I think the smaller class size at Stanford helps a lot with that. Say what you will about Harvard's prestige, but when you're applying to clerkships with half the class (in itself a third again more than any given class at Stanford), all of whom have the same recs from the same professors, it doesn't mean quite as much. And if that prof puts a note on his rec saying "this guy's great!" on some other person's but not yours, then you're totally hosed. Knowing that stuff though, yeah, don't go to Chicago.
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Mar 10, 2011 21:49
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:Also is yield protect actually a real thing, because I just got waitlisted at BU. I always figured yield protect was just some bogus TLS "oh don't feel bad you got yield protected" sort of thing. Yes, it's real, I got rejected by the worst school I applied to.
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Mar 10, 2011 21:53
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:I knew my numbers were good for HLS and okay for SLS/YLS, but I applied quite late and my undergrad university is mostly a no-name public. SLS also sent me some sample resumes, and mine is pathetic in comparison. My softs are political and I chose a somewhat risky topic for my personal statement, so with all that weighted in I figured my HYS odds were slim. I'm almost certain I won't get into Yale. That's pretty silly. Soft factors are called soft factors because they're secondary. Also you mentioned earlier in the thread that you're even a URM, come on. And yield protection certainly is real. Any school that isn't HYS that doesn't practice yield protection at least a little bit is shooting itself in the foot. Yield percentages affect the rankings and as the reliance on GPA/LSAT shows, law schools care most about rankings.
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Mar 10, 2011 21:59
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Yeah, yield management is definitely real. I had good enough numbers to get waitlisted at H and S, and get into a couple other top 6 or whatever schools, but still got waitlisted at Wisconsin and Illinois.
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Mar 10, 2011 22:18
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Howrey voted to dissolve. No jobs.
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Mar 10, 2011 22:25
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Draile posted:Howrey voted to dissolve. No jobs.
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Mar 10, 2011 22:31
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The Warszawa posted:Also, and I don't know HLS's program (LRAP, I think), but a lot of schools will contribute to your loan repayment if you work in public interest and/or make below a certain amount. I know at Yale, if you make below 100k the school contributes to your loan repayment and under 60k they take over your loans entirely. LRAP is the general acronym for a loan repayment assistance program; Harvard has the LIPP (low income protection plan), which is a generous LRAP and probably similar to Yale. Below $45K, the law school covers all of your loan payments, and there's a sliding scale of expected payments as income increases past that. Applies to any government/nonprofit/academic job and private-sector legal jobs.
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Mar 11, 2011 01:55
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Is someone going to post about how THOMAS, J. was bangin all kinds of sluts two at a time back in the day or what Blacksnake in the minority on a panel of three y'all
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Mar 11, 2011 02:07
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Oh gosh I'm thinking of applying to law school. Someone talk me down.
Neon Belly fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Mar 11, 2011 |
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Mar 11, 2011 02:19
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Gadamer posted:Oh gosh I'm thinking of applying to law school. Someone talk me down. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/a-round-up-of-terrible-10hour-lawyer-jobs-in-california/
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Mar 11, 2011 02:27
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Adar posted:http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/a-round-up-of-terrible-10hour-lawyer-jobs-in-california/ don't listen to this poo poo, those are for the bottom feeders. work hard and you'll be top 10, 15% minimum and have your pick of the most prestigious positions.
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Mar 11, 2011 02:36
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Phil Moscowitz posted:don't listen to this poo poo, those are for the bottom feeders. work hard and you'll be top 10, 15% minimum and have your pick of the most prestigious positions. What is the most prestigious bridge under which to transact oral sex for hard drugs?
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Mar 11, 2011 02:38
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Defleshed posted:What is the most prestigious bridge under which to transact oral sex for hard drugs? One of the ones over the Charles, probably.
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Mar 11, 2011 02:49
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Defleshed posted:What is the most prestigious bridge under which to transact oral sex for hard drugs? ask atlas
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Mar 11, 2011 02:50
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Our paralegal quit today, and I brazenly pushed my husband's resume in to the partners. I hope I didn't just ruin my life. Err, ruin it more.
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Mar 11, 2011 02:52
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Save me jeebus posted:Our paralegal quit today, and I brazenly pushed my husband's resume in to the partners. If I remember correctly this is the man who failed the bar a couple of times while you supported the family with a taco stand and lived apart because he was depressed/you couldn't afford housing/something else? because no offense but this should be a really glorious E/N thread
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Mar 11, 2011 04:36
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Adar posted:If I remember correctly this is the man who failed the bar a couple of times while you supported the family with a taco stand and lived apart because he was depressed/you couldn't afford housing/something else?
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Mar 11, 2011 04:44
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Defenestration posted:Outsource tacochat to e/n we already lost everything, don't take our tacos
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Mar 11, 2011 05:16
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I've been following this thread for a while now, but it seems kind of US-centric. I think there are a couple of Canadians kicking around and I was wondering if Canada is as "no jobs, die alone" as the US. I'm in at UToronto, Osgoode and UBC.
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Mar 11, 2011 05:59
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:we already lost everything, don't take our tacos
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Mar 11, 2011 07:19
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Adar posted:http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/a-round-up-of-terrible-10hour-lawyer-jobs-in-california/ bet they still got a thousand apps
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Mar 11, 2011 10:32
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Adar posted:
 for me, although I'm sure it would be amusing for others.
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Mar 11, 2011 15:09
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