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Supercondescending
Jul 4, 2007

ok frankies now lets get in formation

Wonder Bra posted:

One day, I went out there after he'd been kicking around and saw that the gate had somehow blown open. I'm really, really lucky he's a docile homebody because he hadn't even noticed and was still in the yard looking for peanuts. And that's the problem with leaving them outside-- it can go from completely OK to "your dog is gone forever" in a second.

Once a few months after I got Frankie, I put him in my parent's backyard to do whatever while I greeted everyone/got some stuff out of my car/went to the bathroom really quickly. This took probably 10 minutes.

I went outside to check on him and he was gone. Their backyard has a privacy fence, and one of the gates to the side yard had been left open. I didn't even think to check it because no one ever goes in/out of it and it's always closed.

Cue an hour long search involving my entire family, and me a sobbing mess thinking I'd never find him. We finally did, about 2 or 3 miles from home, running RIGHT down the middle of the road. Luckily it was just a neighborhood street without much traffic, but there were still cars having to stop and go around him. We had to chase him for roughly another mile (puppy with lovely recall + stubborn retarded useless terrier= "haha everyone is yelling at ME im gonna make them do it more :iamafag:") before he FINALLY got it through his stupid head that the things I was throwing at him were treats and came back to me.

If I'd been gone all day at work or something, he could have been in the next county/a wet smear on the road long before I even realized he was gone. It only takes once.

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Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~

Brennanite posted:

My cat has watery eyes. No sneezing, no discharge, they just seem watery. It's been about nine days now. Other cat's eyes are completely fine. Does this sound like springtime allergies?

If it's been going on for that long I think it warrants a vet trip. It probably is allergy related but with cats is better safe than sorry to get something unusual checked out.

Belisama
Jan 5, 2011
Does anyone have any suggestions on challenging puzzle toys? I bought my 6 month old GSD/Border Collie a ball that you stuff treats in, which he has to roll around to get them out. It took him approximately 30 seconds to get the hang of it. He'll still play with it, but I might as well feed him treats out of my hand for all the "work" he's doing to earn them. I don't want keep buying toys he figures out pretty easily, so suggestions on something that'll keep him busy for a while would be appreciated!

Wonder Bra
Jan 5, 2008

always in another castle

Belisama posted:

Does anyone have any suggestions on challenging puzzle toys? I bought my 6 month old GSD/Border Collie a ball that you stuff treats in, which he has to roll around to get them out. It took him approximately 30 seconds to get the hang of it. He'll still play with it, but I might as well feed him treats out of my hand for all the "work" he's doing to earn them. I don't want keep buying toys he figures out pretty easily, so suggestions on something that'll keep him busy for a while would be appreciated!


There are some pretty cool puzzles you can get that involve moving pieces and pushing levers and stuff. I thought this was was kind of neat... my parents have it for their schipperke: http://www.fetchdog.com/pet-supplies/dogtoys/interactivedogtoys/dog-twister-brainy-board-dog-game/00162

Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



Belisama posted:

Does anyone have any suggestions on challenging puzzle toys? I bought my 6 month old GSD/Border Collie a ball that you stuff treats in, which he has to roll around to get them out. It took him approximately 30 seconds to get the hang of it. He'll still play with it, but I might as well feed him treats out of my hand for all the "work" he's doing to earn them. I don't want keep buying toys he figures out pretty easily, so suggestions on something that'll keep him busy for a while would be appreciated!

Eee, adorable :neckbeard:

Tug-a-jugs seem to be popular for dogs who need more of a challenge than just bashing a toy into submission. The dog has to learn to pull the rope end to fish the food out.

skoolmunkee
Jun 27, 2004

Tell your friends we're coming for them

Belisama posted:



Your dog looks pretty smart, you might wanna try a sudoku.

I wonder of dogs would be any good at Simon? That might make a cool dog toy. Do a 5-step randomized sequence right, get a treat!

Yeah sorry that wasn't helpful at all, was it?


OK here are a bunch of weird interactive dog toys, but it looks like some of these should be used while supervised: http://www.traininglines.co.uk/interactive-dog-toys-treat-dispensing-toys-training-toys-activity-toys-treat-balls-515-0.html

"Dog Box" looks great, you could train your dog to pick up the house for you!

Brennanite
Feb 14, 2009

Chaco posted:

It could be, or a flare-up of a viral respiratory infection (some of them can appear as eye issues, and not always with a respiratory component). Any other signs at all? Rubbing them, squinting, redness where they should be white on the edges, pupils dilated or constricted when they shouldn't be?

No rubbing, squinting, redness, or pupil changes. Eating as much as he can get his little paws on (free-feeding went out real quick), and exploding with energy.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Superconsndar posted:

Once a few months after I got Frankie, I put him in my parent's backyard to do whatever while I greeted everyone/got some stuff out of my car/went to the bathroom really quickly. This took probably 10 minutes.

I went outside to check on him and he was gone. Their backyard has a privacy fence, and one of the gates to the side yard had been left open. I didn't even think to check it because no one ever goes in/out of it and it's always closed.

Cue an hour long search involving my entire family, and me a sobbing mess thinking I'd never find him. We finally did, about 2 or 3 miles from home, running RIGHT down the middle of the road. Luckily it was just a neighborhood street without much traffic, but there were still cars having to stop and go around him. We had to chase him for roughly another mile (puppy with lovely recall + stubborn retarded useless terrier= "haha everyone is yelling at ME im gonna make them do it more :iamafag:") before he FINALLY got it through his stupid head that the things I was throwing at him were treats and came back to me.

If I'd been gone all day at work or something, he could have been in the next county/a wet smear on the road long before I even realized he was gone. It only takes once.

I'm glad you found him again.

I doubt Wojtek is still reading, but the reason I will never leave my dog alone outside is because of what happened to my mom's childhood dog. In her day, and even while I was growing up, no one thought twice about letting the dog stay outside and roam around unsupervised. She had an adorable dog named Rex who was super friendly and really smart. My grandma likes the tell the story when she left the laundry out on a clothesline and it started raining, Rex tried to drag it inside for her (getting it all muddy of course).

So anyway, their neighbor HATED Rex for no apparent reason. One day they couldn't find Rex, they searched all over, and found his body under some large bushes. :( The neighbor's son later came over and confessed that his dad had left out some poisoned meat for Rex to find and Rex had eaten it and then dragged himself over to the bushes to die.

People are horrible and they are only one thing in a long list that can get to your dog outside when you aren't around to help. Nowhere is ever completely safe, but I feel much better knowing my dog is in her crate and can't harm herself or be harmed by others while I'm gone. And of course, I try to come home as often as possible and I know that she sleeps most of the day anyway. If you're still reading Wojtek, maybe crate training/an inside area and hiring someone reliable to walk/play with them in the middle of the day would be a good middle solution?

Levitate
Sep 30, 2005

randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENIÈRE IN ME
From previous posts his dogs were crate trained at some point he apparently just doesn't like crating them during the day

Supercondescending
Jul 4, 2007

ok frankies now lets get in formation

Levitate posted:

From previous posts his dogs were crate trained at some point he apparently just doesn't like crating them during the day

I realize that I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone involved in a breed where a cardinal rule is "NEVER LEAVE A DOG ALONE WITH ANOTHER DOG OH MY GOD THEY WILL KILL EACH OTHER" and since he has Goldens its considerably less of an issue, but it just amazes me that there are people who would leave their dogs unsupervised together by default. So much can happen.

When I had a bunch of land and dogs I didn't leave my dogs home alone together, but I did let them run around together during the day. They still got into fights/tore poo poo up/ate things they shouldn't and I shouldn't have let them do it.

I dunno, I'm not sure why Wojtek is so defensive; from my experience dogs are much happier safe in a crate with a stuffed kong/puzzle toy than they are left outside to get into poo poo and chew on wood all day. I'm saying that as someone that has done both: the former dogs were way, way happier and less bored than the dogs left to eat trash before chewing on each other's faces and passing out in the hot sun around noon.

Seriously Wojtek, as someone who has done what you're doing, your dogs aren't getting much out of being outside all day. I was home to see my dogs outside, and after less than an hour of running around/getting into trouble they usually went to sleep. They'd be better off/happier doing the same indoors in a safe place where they can't potentially ingest something horrible/get lost/destroy things/eat each other. Crated dogs don't suffer at all if they get enough exercise/attention when you're home. Again, I've done both and would have noticed if my crated dogs were less happy/secure than they were when I just left them out in the yard constantly.

That doesn't mean they can't play in the yard, just that they need to be vaguely supervised and probably shouldn't be left there alone all day while you're at work. :shobon:

Emasculatrix
Nov 30, 2004


Tell Me You Love Me.
I think it also depends on your dog...I leave Comet in the yard 3 days a week, but we have a dog door so he mostly hangs out inside. Our fence is secure, he's not destructive (well, he once sat on my vegetable bed, but I've since fenced it off), and all my neighbors are unemployed and sit outside all day, which would prevent someone from stealing him (why would someone steal a large adult mutt anyway?). He doesn't even chase cats or racoons, so I wouldn't have to worry about him fighting with anything. Really, I don't see what the big deal is. I'd rather give him the option of switching between the couch and the grass than lock him in a crate for 10 hours.

Wojtek
Oct 17, 2008
Oh I'm still reading, I'm just trying to restrain myself from posting here because I really do feel like I'm being jumped on for wanting them to be outside. I've taken most of this to PMs with those of you who can accept them.

The reason I don't like crating them during the day is because they are loving crazy at night if we do.

I appreciate the concern about leaving them alone together, but that's how they've been since we got them. They are littermates. It's funny when we go to a dog park because they get in between each other and other dogs if they feel threatened. They are 2 peas in a pod :3:

Lackadaisical
Nov 8, 2005

Adj: To Not Give A Shit
I just thought I'd chime in with another reason why depending on the breed you shouldn't let your dogs outside. I've read a lot of newspaper articles about some of the smaller dogs being picked up by the massive birds of prey. Another person just let their dog out for a little bit when a mountain lion ran past, nabbed it and ran off.

RazorBunny
May 23, 2007

Sometimes I feel like this.

Didn't somebody in PI lose a dog when its jaw became lodged under the other dog's collar? They were on vacation and the neighbors were petsitting or something, and left the dogs in the yard. I think I'm remembering that correctly?

Even dogs that love each other and get along great can hurt themselves and each other while playing unsupervised all day, unfortunately.

adventure in the sandbox
Nov 24, 2005



Things change


Wojtek posted:

I appreciate the concern about leaving them alone together, but that's how they've been since we got them. They are littermates. It's funny when we go to a dog park because they get in between each other and other dogs if they feel threatened. They are 2 peas in a pod :3:

I have two German shepherds, a brother and sister :3: |Aren't littermates great? They bug each other way more than they bug us :)

My boyfriend insisted on leaving them uncrated in the house, I really didn't want to but said "whatev, the mess is your problem" and moved everything I cared about out of the living room into the bedroom with the door shut. Day 1 was good, Day 2 was a chewed coffee table and 2 chewed up remotes. We crate daily now, and the dogs are more than happy. Aren't anecdotes fun?? But really, my childhood dogs didn't get up to much mischief in the backyard for 6-8 hours so I sympathize.

Gonktastic
Jan 18, 2007

Some homes have "dogproof" fences. My fence, for example, is completely bordered with concrete over a foot deep- can't dig out of it! However, we don't leave our dog outside unsupervised because one day she'll find out she can jump over the 6-ft fence...

On the other hand, my dad has two dogs, lives in a nice neighborhood, has a very safe yard and leaves his two dogs outside all day. They sleep, and play, and run around and generally have a pretty good time. His real problems come from when they slip past him as he walks to the car with them... all sorts of terrifying stories of 3 day searches involving cows, shotguns and a nearly severed dog penis. Anyway, walk your backyard and think of every single way they can get out I guess. The house I live in has a dog run on the side and someone obviously used it a lot because the siding under the windows is scratched to poo poo from the dog trying to see inside.

In the modern day, we can also watch what our dogs do while we're gone. Set up a webcam and see if they play/sleep, etc.

melon cat
Jan 21, 2010

Nap Ghost
How effective is activated charcoal at reducing kitty litter box odours?

Also- how do you train a kitty to sleep in its own bed at night (and not yours)?

melon cat fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Mar 16, 2011

Nostalgia4Infinity
Feb 27, 2007

10,000 YEARS WASN'T ENOUGH LURKING
They work pretty well - until one of your cats decides she likes shredding them (Daisy :argh:) as for the bed, good luck a cat will sleep where it wants.

That thing I sent
May 27, 2010

I'm a Bro-ny!

melon cat posted:

Also- how do you train a kitty to sleep in its own bed at night (and not yours)?

Effective ways to keep a cat from sleeping somewhere:
1. Shut the door
2. ???

Effective ways to train a cat to sleep somewhere:
1. Tell it not to sleep there
2. Put the bed in a place the cat is not supposed to go
3. Try to sit down in the bed and say it is your space and not their space

That's really all I got.

Eggplant Wizard
Jul 8, 2005


i loev catte

melon cat posted:

How effective is activated charcoal at reducing kitty litter box odours?

Also- how do you train a kitty to sleep in its own bed at night (and not yours)?

You might be able to tempt it by putting one of those pet heating pads in or under the bed. Apart from that, hahaha good luck.

The Prismatic Goth
May 31, 2001

melon cat posted:

how do you train a kitty to sleep in its own bed at night (and not yours)?
Ahahaha.

My cat alternates between 4 favourite spots: 1. my computer chair 2. my bed 3. the couch 4. the foot stool. Notice "his bed" is not one of them.
The degree of his preference increases when my need to use said spot increases. So, good luck I guess.

FretforyourLatte
Sep 16, 2010

Put you in my oven!
Aww, I love kitties in my bed. Nothing better than snuggling up to a purring cat. My Lestat is one of those rare sweeties who allows and even happily encourages belly rubs, too. :3:

Regnevelc
Jan 12, 2003

I'M A GROWN ASS MAN!
The poop doggy is limping. He started yesterday when we were playing and it's a little better today, but if he is still limping tomorrow, I'm making a vet appointment.

Poor little guy :(.

ToastFaceKillah
Dec 25, 2010

every day could be your last
in the jungle

melon cat posted:


Also- how do you train a kitty to sleep in its own bed at night (and not yours)?

I bought a dog bed, you know, for my dog to sleep in get off it you goddamn cat.

Synoria Dyne
Nov 1, 2010

We (John Dyne and I) got Hannah from the shelter back in November. She's doing great; healthy weight now, loving, chatty as can be. I've been noticing something kind of odd lately though. She'll go through my pajama drawer and pull every single bit of clothing out of it. Is she just being an rear end in a top hat or what? It doesn't matter if the drawer is closed, she can open it. And it's a heavy drawer. So, how strong are cats?

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I'm just a mite baffled.

Idiot Kicker
Jun 13, 2007
I have a question about my cat. She's either part or full Siamese if that matters. Anyway, she woke me up this morning with a loud howling sound and hissing. It sounded like she got hurt so I jumped out of bed to find her. It turns out she was just looking through a sliding glass door at another cat that was roaming outside. Just seeing the other cat made her very loud and aggressive which worries me.
I used to let her out for a short while last summer until she ran inside one night hissing at a different cat, since then she's strictly indoors. She's about 1 1/2 years old and has been spayed so I'm not sure what her problem is.

Eggplant Wizard
Jul 8, 2005


i loev catte

Idiot Kicker posted:

I have a question about my cat. She's either part or full Siamese if that matters. Anyway, she woke me up this morning with a loud howling sound and hissing. It sounded like she got hurt so I jumped out of bed to find her. It turns out she was just looking through a sliding glass door at another cat that was roaming outside. Just seeing the other cat made her very loud and aggressive which worries me.
I used to let her out for a short while last summer until she ran inside one night hissing at a different cat, since then she's strictly indoors. She's about 1 1/2 years old and has been spayed so I'm not sure what her problem is.

YOU GET OUT OF MY TERRITORY YOU FUCKER GET THE HELL OUT YOU HEARD ME RUN YOU LITTLE BITCH RUUUUUUUUUN

That's all. It's probably fine. Keep her indoors as you have been.

Idiot Kicker
Jun 13, 2007
Okay, cool. As long as this doesn't happen every day, a little territorial behavior is fine. She is a cat after all.

The Prismatic Goth
May 31, 2001

Synoria Dyne posted:

We (John Dyne and I) got Hannah from the shelter back in November. She's doing great; healthy weight now, loving, chatty as can be. I've been noticing something kind of odd lately though. She'll go through my pajama drawer and pull every single bit of clothing out of it. Is she just being an rear end in a top hat or what? It doesn't matter if the drawer is closed, she can open it. And it's a heavy drawer. So, how strong are cats?

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I'm just a mite baffled.
Yeah cats can be assholes like this. Your clothing smells like you, so they are extra interested in it. Maybe try interacting with her more and leaver her more toys so she has some distraction?

As for strength, my cat tipped over one of these

when he was barely 6 months old. So yeah.

Synoria Dyne
Nov 1, 2010

I interact with her til she gives me 'gently caress you, lady' eyes and saunters off. She's got toys out and around. I'm not mad at her. Just baffled. But I'll try even more interaction. Thanks!

Also, your cat is strong. Wow.

melon cat
Jan 21, 2010

Nap Ghost

FretforyourLatte posted:

Aww, I love kitties in my bed. Nothing better than snuggling up to a purring cat. My Lestat is one of those rare sweeties who allows and even happily encourages belly rubs, too. :3:
It's not that I don't want to sleep with my kitty. We're just afraid that we'll roll over and injure him. :ohdear:

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

So I went to look at a dog who I'd previously visited (only petted and talked to outside of his enclosure) at the local SPCA; the staff let me take him out on a walk and he preceded, despite "being easy to walk" to drag me all over the enclosure and try to start fights with cats (through their outdoor turnout pen or whatever).

He was, however, pretty good at listening; I got him to sit and get down off of me without having to repeat myself more than twice... I tried to reign him in and focus him for 20 minutes before I figured the dragging was going to be an issue, so I had the staff put him back and left pretty bummed out.

My question is two fold: a) is it easy to break a dog of these pulling behaviors? and b) would a harness make it somewhat easier to control him without choking him?

I feel terrible about the whole thing because I really liked the dog but I don't want to be the owner who gets dragged along by their out of control dog.

Fatty Patty
Nov 30, 2007

How many cups of sugar does it take to get to the moon?

wtftastic posted:

My question is two fold: a) is it easy to break a dog of these pulling behaviors? and b) would a harness make it somewhat easier to control him without choking him?

I feel terrible about the whole thing because I really liked the dog but I don't want to be the owner who gets dragged along by their out of control dog.

yes and yes. No-pull harnesses are awesome to start out with--they make a few different varieties but my personal favorite are the kind that clip in the front. These are a great tool to help train a dog out of pulling. While they're wearing the no-pull harness, teach heel and get in the habit of having the dog stay within a few feet of you. When you transition to a regular harness or a collar, it will be much easier to deal with the pulling behavior. Be careful about fitting a no-pull harness though (the ones that clip in the front). They need to be very snug or else the dog can get out of them with a little creative jumping.


You could also try a gentle leader, however you will get people that think the dog is dangerous because of how it looks.

snail goat
Dec 12, 2006

you shouldnt doubt yourself
you know more about goats than you give yourself credit for
Seconding the support for no-pull harnesses. We have a Wonder Walker for Zelda and while she hated it at first (she would sit down on walks and not want to budge, resist putting it on, etc) she's gotten so used to it that she'll willingly put her head into it when we are going to head out. It's helped her pulling issues immensely.

It works by attaching to the front and pulling against the dog's shoulder when they pull, causing them to sorta turn in a circle. It's also really easy to put on, and after seeing some of the harness contraptions that the pet store sells I think that's a pretty good selling point.

It doesn't solve everything 100% though, so you should still work on loose leash walking training. Kikopup's videos come pretty highly recommended in the training thread and she has a pretty good one for pulling.

Personally, I wouldn't let pulling keep me from getting an otherwise awesome dog. In my personal experience, while it isn't the easiest thing you'll train, it's totally doable if you work on it consistently.

Edit: This is how much she loves her harness:

snail goat fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Mar 17, 2011

Gringo Heisenberg
May 30, 2009




:dukedog:
I've got a Lhasa Apso/Bichon mix with what I'm guessing is allergies?
Last Spring his paws got a little red and irritated, so I took him to the vet. The vet wasn't too concerned about it and basically just shrugged it off, the paws didn't bother him much though. The vet said if it was still bugging him a bit to try a different food, so we tried some Skin Allergy food and it didn't have an effect. Once winter started it completely disappeared.

In the past week, since it's started to warm up and the snow melt, his back paws only are really red and irritated. I think I'm going to take him to a new vet this time, but anyone have any idea what it could be/things to ask the vet? Allergy panel maybe?

Thanks

Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~
What food are you feeding/what food did you try/how long did you keep him on the first allergy food

If it is seasonal allergies (sounds like it is) then that's a bit different. Try asking the vet about solutions for grass/pollen allergies and what not.

Kerfuffle fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Mar 17, 2011

RFX
Nov 23, 2007
On a walk today, my dog (Cairn terrier) was somewhat attacked by another dog (not sure on the breed, but significantly larger) that broke the leash/out of its owners control. The dog had mine in his mouth on the ground. I was able to separate them pretty quickly.

My dog was spooked and we headed home as quickly as we could; he was rushing back, panting really hard to the point of snorting, which he never does. Once home, he avoided me/hid behind the couches, under tables, etc. for a bit. Eventually he became playful again, he was hungry, and I looked him over and didn't see any damage.

The only thing I have noticed is a particularly bad odor, even though he had a bath just a few days ago. Could this odor be related to any damage he may have gotten from the other dog? Is it some other fight effect from the fight?

Enelrahc
Jun 17, 2007

RFX posted:

On a walk today, my dog (Cairn terrier) was somewhat attacked by another dog (not sure on the breed, but significantly larger) that broke the leash/out of its owners control. The dog had mine in his mouth on the ground. I was able to separate them pretty quickly.

My dog was spooked and we headed home as quickly as we could; he was rushing back, panting really hard to the point of snorting, which he never does. Once home, he avoided me/hid behind the couches, under tables, etc. for a bit. Eventually he became playful again, he was hungry, and I looked him over and didn't see any damage.

The only thing I have noticed is a particularly bad odor, even though he had a bath just a few days ago. Could this odor be related to any damage he may have gotten from the other dog? Is it some other fight effect from the fight?

He probably expressed his anal glands when he was scared. It's not unusual, but it is pretty stinky. I'd just give him another bath, even if it is a bit early.

Geolicious
Oct 21, 2003

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark.
Lipstick Apathy
My kitties just moved from VA to NV. Is getting them settled in just going to take time? My Charlotte seems to be doing OK, but Henry and Tabitha cry and fuss and hiss all night long. I had to sleep on the floor for part of the night last night just to keep them quiet. Henry is especially restless and loud. Is there anything I can do for them, besides the obvious, to help them settle down and relax? I know you guys have a wealth of experience with moving with pets and this is my first time moving where I could bring them.

I know it's been kinda traumatic. But I want them to be happy and I need some sleep.

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Eggplant Wizard
Jul 8, 2005


i loev catte

Geolicious posted:

My kitties just moved from VA to NV. Is getting them settled in just going to take time? My Charlotte seems to be doing OK, but Henry and Tabitha cry and fuss and hiss all night long. I had to sleep on the floor for part of the night last night just to keep them quiet. Henry is especially restless and loud. Is there anything I can do for them, besides the obvious, to help them settle down and relax? I know you guys have a wealth of experience with moving with pets and this is my first time moving where I could bring them.

I know it's been kinda traumatic. But I want them to be happy and I need some sleep.

How long ago did you move? Can you keep them in one room for a week or so, maybe your bedroom? It'll probably be less than a week if you do this. The bedroom is a good choice because 1) you'll be close to them all night long and 2) it probably smells most like home due to your clothes, sheets, etc. They'll be able to adjust to a small space quicker than to the whole house/apartment. Another thing to do is get a feliway infuser and see if that helps. But really, just confining them to a smaller space so they have less to deal with all at once is a good start. Remember that as far as they're concerned, they're on a different planet and everything smells different and it's awful and why don't you notice that everything is strange and awful?!

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