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I just finished Wise Man's Fears, and I have such mixed feelings about it all. A lot of the stories were interesting, such as the fight with the bandit camp, but then there was poo poo like Felurian, Denna, and parts of his time at Ademre. A few others have mentioned it, but Kvothe's character felt like it took a sharp turn from the previous book. He's ignorant about women yet he's loving like a champ on his first run and now he's a manwhore. He's supposedly very intelligent yet it felt like he was just unbelievably dumber in this book. Look, the moon!!! What does the woman do with the anger??? Despite the size of the book, the overarching story didn't feel like it advanced at all. There's still years between story Kvothe and present day Kvothe, and unless Rothfuss pulls a lot more time skips, I don't see how he's going to properly wrap up the story. There seems to be so much more of the story that Kvothe needs to tell, and yet there's still a whole shitload of story to be told about the present day. I can almost see book 3 ending with the tales of the past, and present day Kvothe basically going, 'That's how I messed things up, and that is why the world of today is so bad. The End!' Everyone praises Rothfuss for his prose, but I didn't find anything about it to stand out. Admittedly though, I don't know poo poo about what makes prose amazing or not. What stood out for me were the constant analogies. "She smelled like autumn leaves. Like the dark smell of her own hair, like road dust and the air before a summer storm." Maybe that's supposed to be very poetic, but it ends up sounding meaningless to me. The hand gestures of the Adem were interesting when we were first introduced to them, but after a while it honestly felt like a lazy man's way of conveying emotion and started reminding me of the Elcor from Mass Effect 2. 'Morose rumination. To be or not to be, that is the question.' Edit: Also what's the deal with the tuition agreement near the end? I'm not even sure this needs to be spoilered at all, but he basically makes the agreement to split 50/50 any amount over 10 talents. How is this not straight up fraud on the part of Riem, and why does it even seem like a good idea to him? Beyond that, how does the agreement make any sense? The university charges him 24 talents, and they each get 7 talents. With Kvothe's wondering aloud about how the Maer would pay any sum, I assumed they were going to charge an amount over his tuition, then pocket the extra. Instead they shortchange the university itself? Does the university not keep a total and realize that they're missing 14 talents? It's a small sum in the grand scheme of things, but considering retailers have cashiers count their tills to check for any discrepancies, I can't imagine the university not noticing. blahz fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Mar 15, 2011 |
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Mar 15, 2011 13:53
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blahz posted:Edit: Also what's the deal with the tuition agreement near the end? I'm not even sure this needs to be spoilered at all, but he basically makes the agreement to split 50/50 any amount over 10 talents. How is this not straight up fraud on the part of Riem, and why does it even seem like a good idea to him? Beyond that, how does the agreement make any sense? The university charges him 24 talents, and they each get 7 talents. With Kvothe's wondering aloud about how the Maer would pay any sum, I assumed they were going to charge an amount over his tuition, then pocket the extra. Instead they shortchange the university itself? Does the university not keep a total and realize that they're missing 14 talents? It's a small sum in the grand scheme of things, but considering retailers have cashiers count their tills to check for any discrepancies, I can't imagine the university not noticing. Well, I thought the same thing as you in regards to how they were going to cheat the Maer and not the university. But in regards to the system Riem and Kvothe agree to, it is straight up fraud. I think the idea though is that the masters, Kvothe, and Riem are the only ones who will ever know his tuition. Kvothe has a history of having low tuition, Kvothe will now artificially inflate his tuition, then they split anything over X talents. Kvothe basically had to negotiate two things with Riem, the cut off point and the split. Once he convinced Riem that he would never truly have a tuition over 10 talents, anything beyond that is Kvothe artificially inflating his tuition and so not really due to the university. Or you could argue that anyway, it's still fraud. Does that make sense? TWMF posted:That left only Hemme, who had been scowling furiously since I’d first stepped up to the masters’ table. My lackluster performance and slow answers had brought a smug curve to his lips by this point. His eyes gleamed whenever I gave a wrong answer. The bolded parts are all intentional, not an actual lack of intellect/knowledge. Kvothe is such a smug bastard, sometimes I hope he just gets knifed by a wandering brigand. Lyon fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Mar 15, 2011 |
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Mar 15, 2011 16:35
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Lyon posted:I think the idea though is that the masters, Kvothe, and Riem are the only ones who will ever know his tuition. The thing that bugs me about this is that it's just a deal between Riem and Kvothe. The masters just set the tuition, and trust that it's paid, without checking, I guess? Is it sad that this was the part of the book that bugged me the most? I mean... I work in accounting, so grain of salt here, but I find it hard to believe an institution like the University has no system for checking for blatant and obvious fraud. It's not even subtle fraud. At first, I just thought maybe they were inflating tuition just on the Maer's end, and splitting whatever they took on top of the set tuition, but then what would be the point of intentionally flubbing admissions? Could just skim an additional 20 talent a month split. Maybe that's why Kvothe gets kicked out: Ambrose hires the University an auditor. 
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Mar 15, 2011 17:56
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I agree, it's a backwards plot. The Maer can't easily verify how much Kvothe's actual tuition is, so it would be easy for Kvothe to keep on earning a low tuition through admissions and then him and Riem grossing it up. The Maer is 1,000 miles away and owes Kvothe his life, his wife, and twice more for destroying brigands. I think he can afford an extra ~20 talents a year and wouldn't really care. Meanwhile there's a master and a rich/powerful student who hate him and that are a part of the very university Kvothe is stealing from. Who's more likely to find out you're cheating them and who's more likely to care/do something about it? It's just another instance of Kvothe (Rothfuss?) being a smug piece of poo poo, you really got one over Hemme you super smart genius piece of perfection. I wouldn't be surprised if he did get kicked out for this reason, it would be kind of funny, and I would like Rothfuss for doing it.
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Mar 15, 2011 18:39
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Lyon posted:I agree, it's a backwards plot. The Maer can't easily verify how much Kvothe's actual tuition is, so it would be easy for Kvothe to keep on earning a low tuition through admissions and then him and Riem grossing it up. The Maer is 1,000 miles away and owes Kvothe his life, his wife, and twice more for destroying brigands. I think he can afford an extra ~20 talents a year and wouldn't really care. Yeah once I figured out what the actual agreement was, I realized that Kvothe was purposefully doing terrible on the admissions interview, but the logic of the whole plan was just stupid. If he tried to get a tuition of 10 talents, had Riem inflate that to 30 talents, and they both split the extra 20 talents, I would understand. The University gets its cut and the Maer just thinks it's all tuition. Except he ends up screwing the University itself. They have to be keeping track of finances, realize Riem is skimming them, and it'll come right back at Kvothe. I don't understand how super genius Kvothe in all his smug glory decides to go with this plan, despite the whole setup sounding like he'd go with the screw the Maer plan. I'm going to laugh if this is how Ambrose gets Kvothe kicked out. It seems like a small inconsequential part of the whole story, but the blatant idiocy of the plan just struck me as completely counter to everything we know about Kvothe. I agree about Kvothe being a smug rear end in a top hat, and I can't help but imagine  whenever I read the word. Something Awful has ruined the word for me.
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Mar 15, 2011 21:40
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I agree with everyone on that whole thing. I spent 15 minutes trying to figure it out and the only reasoning I could come up for the other guy going along with it was that he is a moron. It makes sense that Kvothe would rather do it that way because then he doesn't have to bust his rear end and gets to be a superior jerk (which he enjoys). He wouldn't think about the potential ramifications. It's the other guy who seems to be sitting in the hot seat.
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Mar 15, 2011 21:58
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blahz posted:I don't understand how super genius Kvothe in all his smug glory decides to go with this plan, despite the whole setup sounding like he'd go with the screw the Maer plan. I'm going to laugh if this is how Ambrose gets Kvothe kicked out. I will laugh my rear end off if this is why Kvothe gets kicked out. No drama, no showmanship, no grand exit, just tuition fraud. I guess Rothfuss made a show of how Kvothe isn't that great at math, so the one who I'm really disappointed in here is Riem. Accountants should know better. 
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Mar 15, 2011 22:04
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I've got about a hundred pages more to read of this, and I'm still waiting for something to happen. I can't really pick out a single plot point in this book that actually advances the main story in a meaningful way. Basically it's just another few years at A lot of people seem to be complaining about Felurian, but all the parts where Rothfuss discusses women are really creepy. Also even though I've read two of these books now, I still can't get over how bad and nerdy the main character's name is.
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Mar 16, 2011 02:08
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stasis posted:I've got about a hundred pages more to read of this, and I'm still waiting for something to happen. I can't really pick out a single plot point in this book that actually advances the main story in a meaningful way. Yeah I felt this way too, especially since the point he leaves off the story in the last book suggested that he would get expelled in chapter 2 or 3 of the sequel. And to be honest I'm not sure why he didn't, since getting expelled would be a better justification for his extra-university adventures than just wandering off like he does.
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Mar 16, 2011 03:18
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quote:I am not referring to the vigorous sweaty wrestling most men-- and alas, most women -- think of as love. While sweat and vigor are pleasant parts of it, Felurian brought to my attention the subtler pieces. If I were to go into the world, she said, I would not embarrass her by being an incompentent lover, and so she took care to show me a great many things. 
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Mar 16, 2011 03:43
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quote:"I will also make thousand hands," I said, watching her expression soften. "And I will show you something new I have thought of all myself. I call it swaying against the wind." 
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Mar 16, 2011 04:03
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yup. those parts might have been far easier to read if I didn't know what the author looked like.
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Mar 16, 2011 04:52
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"He's got a fae look in his eyes.... He needs to get into my vagina!" That, moreso than anything else, was the most  inducing part of the book.It's just... drat that's horrible.
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Mar 16, 2011 05:56
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Just sounding better and better. I wish I was not such a slow reader. I have not as much as read the first word of the book because I am only half-way through my last huge book, aaggch.
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Mar 16, 2011 15:15
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Do you think it would even be possible to convince Rothfuss that he is incredibly creepy as far as women go? I feel like no matter what you say he'd just tell you that you don't understand "real women."
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Mar 16, 2011 16:42
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It's funny how a bunch of goons have taken it from "This part was way too long and the scenes were a bit awkward" to "he is incredibly creepy as far as women go". He is no more creepy to women than 90% of the men posting here. Honestly, it wasn't that bad it was just way, way too long for such an irrelevant part of the story. Can we move on?
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Mar 16, 2011 16:48
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No, the book is definitely creepy about women. It's no creepier than most of fantasy, but even the strongest women characters eventually boil down to discussing sex in some way. Sometimes it's because they're using sex as a tool, sometimes it's because their sex is untouchable, sometimes it's because their sex is being taken from them, and in Felurian's case it's because sex is all she has to offer. I guess Auri is an exception because she's been traumatized into being the equivalent of a little girl forever, but that's not exactly comforting. The only question is whether this obsession with women's sexuality is because the author thinks that way or because Kvothe thinks that way. The former is gross, the latter is interesting.
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Mar 16, 2011 16:59
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I was going to put the book down if Kvothe got it on with Auri on the rooftops.
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Mar 16, 2011 17:06
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MarshallX posted:It's funny how a bunch of goons have taken it from "This part was way too long and the scenes were a bit awkward" to "he is incredibly creepy as far as women go". You know, for me it really was that bad and honestly ruined my enjoyment of the book. I've read worse, I've read creepier, but I don't think I've ever read such a nerdy sex scene in my life outside of terrible NFL erotic fanfics that get posted occasionally in TFF.
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Mar 16, 2011 17:17
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MarshallX posted:It's funny how a bunch of goons have taken it from "This part was way too long and the scenes were a bit awkward" to "he is incredibly creepy as far as women go". Yeah, it actually was that bad. The female relations, both platonic and otherwise, in these books are a step away from Robert Jordan and maybe two from Piers Anthony.
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Mar 16, 2011 17:25
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Habibi posted:Yeah, it actually was that bad. The female relations, both platonic and otherwise, in these books are a step away from Robert Jordan and maybe two from Piers Anthony. Where is Terry Goodkind positioned in this spectrum of repulsively immature attitudes towards women and sex?
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Mar 16, 2011 18:36
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Flatscan posted:Where is Terry Goodkind positioned in this spectrum of repulsively immature attitudes towards women and sex? Terry Goodkind is like the Maqruis de Sade of the modern fantasy genre. The only positive thing that can be said is that at least he never went furry. Unlike GRRM. You want to see some horrific stuff, read Wild Cards.
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Mar 16, 2011 19:00
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Habibi posted:Yeah, it actually was that bad. The female relations, both platonic and otherwise, in these books are a step away from Robert Jordan and maybe two from Piers Anthony. I could never make myself read The Wheel of Time, what happened there?
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Mar 16, 2011 19:04
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At least for Patrick Rothfuss I can say that his weird sexual poo poo only slightly hindered my enjoyment of his story, rather than completely ruining it forever and ever as was the case with GRRM.
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Mar 16, 2011 19:06
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Daico posted:I could never make myself read The Wheel of Time, what happened there? Women just constantly talk about how men are useless but hate how they can't stop thinking about the ones they're interested in. They go on about it ad nauseam.
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Mar 16, 2011 19:13
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Daico posted:I could never make myself read The Wheel of Time, what happened there? Its really not as bad as some people say it is. The worst of it is that women are always getting spanked as punishment. Its not treated in a sexual way, to me it was more of a turn of the century America "rule of thumb" kind of thing. In The Wheel of Time, most societies are dominated by women, which makes sense considering the magic system. People also get upset about Rand's three wives thing. These are not reasons to stay away from reading the Wheel of Time. A good reason would be the ridiculous amount of worldbuilding in each book after the 4th and stupendous amount of side characters introduced that that do not progress the plot in any way. When you can break down a 10,000 word chapter into "Character X thinks about a thing that happened" you have a problem with pacing. This is literally what over 50% of each book turns into. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 17, 2011 |
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Mar 16, 2011 19:18
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Mahlertov Cocktail posted:Women just constantly talk about how men are useless but hate how they can't stop thinking about the ones they're interested in. They go on about it ad nauseam. There's loads of femdom subtext too that only really started turning up after he got married.
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Mar 16, 2011 19:22
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BananaNutkins posted:When you can break down a 10,000 word chapter into "Character X thinks about a thing that happened" you have a problem with pacing. This is literally what over 50% of each book turns into. Yeah. I'm reading the series for the first time right now and I've honestly started paying less attention unless it seems like something important is happening or I'm getting close to the climax, because that's pretty much all that matters.
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Mar 16, 2011 19:33
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Wow, what a disappointment. After reading how he was the greatest new fantasy author of the age, I got both books and read them over the last week. I found very little that was original or particularly creative. If anything, it seemed a combination of Harry Potter and The Deeds of Paksenarrion, with a more developed system of magic. There was so much that coulda been cut, including the every few pages revelation that Kvothe is poor and everyone else at the University is not. We got the idea the first ten times. The entire University section shoulda been half a book, and then the post-U stuff, basically the second half of the second book, could have the been the second half of the first book instead. Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy was a better story, though maybe not as well written. And Sanderson's Way of Kings was far, far superior. Unlike Sanderson, Rothfuss shouldn't even be in the same discussion as the Martin's, Jordan's, and Erikson's of the genre. That said, I actually enjoyed it, just was expecting a lot more from the press and reviews he's been getting.
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Mar 16, 2011 21:18
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BananaNutkins posted:Its really not as bad as some people say it is...A good reason would be the ridiculous amount of worldbuilding in each book after the 4th and stupendous amount of side characters introduced that that do not progress the plot in anyway. I tried my damnedest to get through The Eye of the World and I just couldn't give a drat. To be fair, that was also around the time I was getting really deathly sick of pseudo-medieval fantasy settings. fed_dude posted:What a disappointment. Yeah, I thought Name of the Wind was a fun read that left me wanting more, but I never really felt like he got top marks on plot or prose or the like. And Wise Man's Fear was probably twice as long as it needed to be for the content.
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Mar 16, 2011 21:37
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Daico posted:And Wise Man's Fear was probably twice as long as it needed to be for the content. The first 350 pages could be cut completely. To me it felt like a "more stuff that happened" appendix for the first book.
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Mar 16, 2011 21:53
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Can anyone think of anything important that happened besides the tree? Maybe the box will be important later?
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Mar 16, 2011 22:36
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stasis posted:Can anyone think of anything important that happened besides the tree? Maybe the box will be important later? Off the top of my head, he - gets the shadow cloak - learns about Adem fighting (which is superior to basically everyone else in the world I guess) but has apparently forgotten it - that box thing - he gets a half-patron so that he can afford school without whining about it every 4 pages - he starts being able to call the wind using its true name on purpose, and calls other things by their true name on accident (Auri, Felurian) - sees one of the Chandraian again and learns their true names - calls some sick lightning down on a bunch of folks - gets that fancy historic sword - gets poisoned with that weird thing that makes him lose control that might possibly crop up again later And Bast totally kills some dudes because he is a secret badass. So, some poo poo happens, but not enough to justify the taking up of so many pages with only one book left. Sophia fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Mar 16, 2011 |
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Mar 16, 2011 22:52
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Bast was never a secret bad rear end, he's got some cool Fae title and I think it might include prince. Bast has always been scary, particularly when he threatens the Chronicler. Some of the lines Rothfuss uses there are great, and almost worth reading the books just for that. I seem to remember something along the lines of "I'll split you open like an overripe fruit and play around with your insides." but written a lot better.
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Mar 16, 2011 23:14
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We also learned the weaknesses of all the Chandrian. Just saying.
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Mar 17, 2011 01:12
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Lyon posted:Some of the lines Rothfuss uses there are great, and almost worth reading the books just for that. I did like how Rothfuss had a precision F-strike when Bast heard that Kvothe had talked to the Chtaeh. Considering the books had relatively tame language until then, it made the line actually have impact.
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Mar 17, 2011 04:31
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Whilst I did enjoy the book, it did just seem to go off on (mainly) totally unrelated tangents in the second half. The story was progressing nicely, albeit slowly, when all of a sudden you get: Download the "Severan's Secrets" expansion pack! * A whole new city to explore! * Increased level cap! * A host of new items, including the legenday Cloak of Shadows! * A new race of fierce and noble warriors! * New skills to learn! * New creepy romance options! (You can play Severan's Secrets at any point during act 2 of your quest!)
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Mar 17, 2011 13:56
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A really long dual interview / conversation between Rothfuss and author-bot Brandon Sanderson can be found here featuring this quote about Book 3:Pat Rothfuss posted:Here's the deal: Lots of interesting stuff from both writers. Bizob fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Mar 17, 2011 |
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Mar 17, 2011 17:18
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Bizob posted:A really long dual interview / conversation between Rothfuss and author-bot Brandon Sanderson can be found here featuring this quote about Book 3: Sanderson re-wrote The Way of Kings from scratch in a year's time, I believe. He had a "complete" novel he wrote over a ten year period, realized he was a much better writer now, and basically used it as a plot outline.
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Mar 17, 2011 19:15
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quote:new creepy romance options Name of the Wind: I'm Gonna Make You Love Me *stalk Denna in several new cities *gather more info about her relationships *break into houses to collect items that belong to her *follow her into dark alleys and bars to eavesdrop on her conversations *refuse to talk to her because you are afraid of her "getting away" but tell everyone you meet that she is in bad relationships and needs to be with you stasis fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Mar 17, 2011 |
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Mar 17, 2011 19:18
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