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Nidhg00670000 posted:The difference here being that Motus literally did not exist before. Hoysung/S&T Motors had a market share somewhere else, they had a product before entering the US market. I can sorta buy this, except that there are a number of examples of companies pulling through as a result of cheap bikes that move a reasonable amount of volume. (Ducati Monster, Triumph T585 series bikes) quote:I've tried one. Calling them “huge piles of poo poo” seems a bit hyperbolic, but sure, they are not what I would call “good” motorcycles. Jincheng and Zongchen, now there's poo poo. True, I am being hyperbolic there, but as far as the American market is concerned, we don't get those bikes, so Hyosung came in at the bottom of the game and left as a result of it. They didn't need to have the world's most amazing bikes, but multiple engine failures, loads of problems with the tanks not sealing, etc. The QC just wasn't there. Linedance posted:I think you're too quick to dismiss Hyosung. Hyundai was synonymous with poo poo when they came to North America, but enough people bought them because they were cheap that they could slowly improve brand image and quality to the point where they're direct competition with Japanese brands. Hyosung is like the motorcycling equivalent of Hyundai. Nobody remembers the Pony, nobody is going to remember the GT/GV650. Except that the problem with Hyosung is they weren't coming into the market as a super cheap motorcycle...the GT250 was the same price as a ninja 250 (at the time) and the 650 was only ~$500 cheaper than the SV650. If the GT250 had been 2k and the 650 had been 4k, then they might have had something because the low quality of the bikes would have been evened out by the low cost. As it was, they were trying to compete in a proven market with a low quality bike at the same cost as the high quality ones. Ola posted:While I disagree that it is a poo poo bike, I think Z3n has a point when he calls it a boutique bike. Until we see the price tag we won't know just how boutique. It's tough to say it makes a great sport tourer when almost all bikes between 500 and 1200cc can do sport touring in the eyes of their buyers and you can choose between low price or massive option lists with all kinds of cool gizmos. So if it doesn't (but it might) measure up to the competition it needs to have the exotic desirability of things like Bimota, Norton or maybe TVR (not a bike, I know). Sport touring on a DRZ for life! The selling points of Bimota are that everything is hand assembled and hand machined. They put an incredible amount of work into their bikes, and they also tend to push the limits of lightness and everything else. Honestly, the Motus has already been made: It's the VFR1200 and it got panned because there was just nothing compelling about it. I have a hard time finding this compelling for the same reason: No potential for race development, no potential for a super light weight, super high HP streetfighter/muscle cruiser (like the VMax/Diavel), as it stands, there's just really nothing about it that wouldn't be done better by a Busa with some bags and bar risers. If you can come close to what's out there at a reasonable price, ramp up production, get your company out as a name, and get bikes on the street, then there is potential. If your goals are to only sell a few hundred bikes a year, the second anything goes wrong your company is going to go bankrupt. Again, see Bimota, MV, etc. Motorcycle history is littered with manufacturers that have tried this before and inevitably they burn out because there's no long term profit or real future in boutique biking. Every company that's done it has gone out of business or been bought out by someone big until they stopped with the small numbers of expensive bikes and started moving enough volume to support themselves. Again, Triumph, Ducati, MV Agusta, Bimota...You don't need to turn out amazing bikes out the door, but you do need to establish yourself in the market if you expect to ever be able to build one, and it's goddamn impossible to establish any sort of market when you're only making a few hundred bikes a year. Z3n fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Mar 17, 2011 |
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Mar 17, 2011 18:06
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Z3n posted:Honestly, the Motus has already been made: It's the VFR1200 and it got panned because there was just nothing compelling about it. Disagree, the VFR1200 was marketed with ultra high tech gizmorama appeal and got panned in large part because some of the big motorcycle press players didn't like Honda trying to edit them. (and being something of a boring, range limited bike given the hype) Even if the engine layout, mission and specs are very similar to the VFR1200, they both compete with a wide variety of bikes. A Multistrada buyer hasn't only checked out the R1200GS, he's also looked at a K1300GT and a Bandit S. Or whatever, you know what I mean. By Motus' own admission, it's "a fresh take on the American motorcycle". That sentence basically admits it can't match the big four or the Europeans when it comes to dealer networks, well-integrated packages with development time, customer experience, etc etc. What Motus should get judged by is a small indie start-up group putting out what they think most riders seem to want. What the purchaser needs to think (from Motus' perspective) is "gently caress it, I'm going to give these guys a chance. It does what I need and it's unique. It doesn't have the gizmos or the well rounded package provided by big industry. It's no Deutsche Bahn über-tourer and it's no Italian stallion but fair enough, it only costs $XX,XXX". X = critical value to the credbility of previous sentence. One thing they could have done better is the plastics. It's looks like the Chinese eBay replacements you get when you've dropped a bike that was ugly to begin with. edit: even if I'd like to put my money where mouth is, be all punk and indie and get this bike, at 1600cc it's going to get itself torn a few new exhaust ports by the Norwegian tax monster.
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Mar 17, 2011 18:57
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Also, I'm assuming chains, sprockets, brakes, suspension, lights etc is off the shelf bits. So that should keep you sorted on aux parts. I would totally buy it on the assumption that I was my own dealer and I got warranty parts directly from Motus. In fact, it would be much better than going through a dealer. Pretty similar to how I deal with warranty parts at work, only it would be about something interesting.
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Mar 17, 2011 19:09
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Ola posted:Disagree, the VFR1200 was marketed with ultra high tech gizmorama appeal and got panned in large part because some of the big motorcycle press players didn't like Honda trying to edit them. (and being something of a boring, range limited bike given the hype) Well, I feel a bit like their setup is trying the same, with direct injection, a focus on engine modification, etc. My question is, with the rampant success of Moto2 and the continuing existence of companies like Bimota that have never designed an engine in their entire career, why not go the easy way out? Try and pick up an established engine and swap it into your own frame and chassis. The company that's doing that right now that I'm really excited about is Cleveland CycleWerks. They're making a 250 supermoto with a overhead cam 250 that they've hinted being a hopped up DRZ250 engine. They're using existing, proven technology, and pairing a relatively simple setup to start making bikes that anyone could buy. They're also undercutting the cost of the Ninja 250 by $700, with the bike retailing for $3600. quote:By Motus' own admission, it's "a fresh take on the American motorcycle". That sentence basically admits it can't match the big four or the Europeans when it comes to dealer networks, well-integrated packages with development time, customer experience, etc etc. The thing about that is that I feel like it's a little silly to start production of a bike on the back foot like that. Play to the strengths of a startup and try and get in on a trending market. The other thing is that research consistently shows that brand loyalty is really strong between riders and their first bike's maker. So get into that beginner market, start establishing yourself, and THEN move up to building the bigger, more development intensive bikes. Boutique building really seems to be putting the cart before the horse, there's never been a company that has managed to successfully turn that into a long term business. quote:What Motus should get judged by is a small indie start-up group putting out what they think most riders seem to want. What the purchaser needs to think (from Motus' perspective) is "gently caress it, I'm going to give these guys a chance. It does what I need and it's unique. It doesn't have the gizmos or the well rounded package provided by big industry. It's no Deutsche Bahn über-tourer and it's no Italian stallion but fair enough, it only costs $XX,XXX". I can agree with the saleability potential for boutique bikes. I just highly doubt it'll ever turn into anything worthwhile for the general motorcycling population. quote:One thing they could have done better is the plastics. It's looks like the Chinese eBay replacements you get when you've dropped a bike that was ugly to begin with. Easy solution: Buy a VMax!  I'd also mention this blog that I found while looking for info on the motus: http://dalefranks.com/cycles/index.php/tag/motus-motorcycles/ Of note: Engine actually weighs 200 pounds, because the 130 pound figure doesn't include the 70 pounds of transmission.  Price is expected to be around the cost of a fully loaded K1300GT, so figure around 24k (base MSRP is $18800). Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Mar 17, 2011 |
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Mar 17, 2011 19:27
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I think the unique engine is seen by them as a selling point, not a hassle. It could be that engines are what those guys really know and that's the strength they feel they're playing to. Besides, getting a 250 OEM from Honda is easy, they're in all kinds of bikes, ATVs, XXL-sized blenders etc...but where to get a sport touring powerplant? I'd go further, it might be that chopping a V-8 in half is the original idea, they had the skills to make it happen and then searched for the platform to fit it into. And I don't think the establish on small bikes -> grow to big bikes is a safer recipe for success, unless you get a huge deal with the MSF or something. Which brands have gone that route in modern times? In fact, which new brands have appeared and stuck around since, say, 1980? Hyosung and Victory, can't think of any other although I'm sure there are some. Point is, there is no particular recipe on how to do it (I still stand by my "idle prince" theory). I don't give Motus very good odds, but that's not all because of their concept. It's just really hard to do.
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Mar 17, 2011 20:14
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Ola posted:I think the unique engine is seen by them as a selling point, not a hassle. It could be that engines are what those guys really know and that's the strength they feel they're playing to. Besides, getting a 250 OEM from Honda is easy, they're in all kinds of bikes, ATVs, XXL-sized blenders etc...but where to get a sport touring powerplant? I'd go further, it might be that chopping a V-8 in half is the original idea, they had the skills to make it happen and then searched for the platform to fit it into. Triumph did it. I should be more clear, it's not small bikes that it's important to sell, so much as mass market bikes. Triumph slapped the T585 engine in a bunch of different platforms and handily diversified their investment as well as capitalizing on a bunch of different markets with minimal changes, while keeping prices relatively reasonable. This allowed them to start getting money coming in as well as helping them establish themselves in multiple markets, while simultaneously inventing the factory streetfighter market. It still took them until 2000 to break even (according to wikipedia) but that is to be expected when you're trying to break into as developed a market as motorcycles. The original T585 was a ripoff of the CBR900 engine, oversized and with one cylinder lopped off, IIRC, so he didn't even really do his own development there either. I'm with you on the idle prince theory, though. Idle prince seem to equal a dynasty with a long living brand power that eventually turns into some gorgeous bikes. Also a bailout by harley and a sale for 1 euro after the fact. 
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Mar 17, 2011 20:26
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Z3n posted:Also a bailout by harley and a sale for 1 euro after the fact. Who are we talking about here? Ducati?
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Mar 17, 2011 20:33
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TheCosmicMuffet posted:Who are we talking about here? Ducati? MV Agusta
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Mar 17, 2011 20:39
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Z3n posted:Triumph did it. Well, Triumph already had its brand. They had the advantage of "holy poo poo I loved that brand in the 70s. If they could only make something good under new management, anything...I'd buy it". I'd love to see some old brands re-done. Royal Enfield turbodiesel ADV. BSA streetfighter. Ariel sport tourer. 
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Mar 17, 2011 22:36
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Ola posted:Well, Triumph already had its brand. They had the advantage of "holy poo poo I loved that brand in the 70s. If they could only make something good under new management, anything...I'd buy it". I think that the brand name recognition was the minority of it though. Norton hasn't been able to capitalize on the same brand name recognition yet, but they're doing the same boutique bike thing that everyone else seems to think is how you do motorcycles. I'd love to see a remake of the Bultaco Metralla as a badass little cafe racer with a high strung single powering it. Ohlins, sub 225 pound wet weight, and 40-50HP. It'd be a monster. Z3n fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Mar 17, 2011 |
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Mar 17, 2011 22:43
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the trouble with Norton is it's owned by Americans (last time I heard), trying to sell to Americans, on the merit of British nostalgia. Where Triumph got it right was selling to its market. It's amazing to see just how rabidly British bikers take to anything Triumph. They knew who they were building to, and they built bikes specifically for that market. Honestly, they couldn't put a foot wrong. Everything they do is almost genetically designed to appeal to the British rider. From that, they went after different markets that appreciated similar things, but it started with selling to what the local market wanted.
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Mar 18, 2011 00:05
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Triumph is a great company, their renewal is a proper success story. They pander to nostalgia with actually good, actually practical retro models. And they build new stuff for the modern market. The triple has a brilliant reputation for power delivery, economy and reliability. I'm sure there are negative things as well, the Norwegian dealer network almost staged a mutiny two years ago (so rumours say). But all in all they are very lovable indeed. If I bought new tomorrow it would be a Tiger 800, no doubt.
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Mar 18, 2011 00:44
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My triumph is in my garage basically *because* my dad went off the road during a freeze in new england and totalled his GT-6, and as a result of that bitter pill bought another GT-6 as a family car while I was still small enough to fit in the space between the coupe seats and the hatchback. The hum of the engine is british and proper, and reminded me, as it got up to speed of an outraged gentlemen.. Hrm hum hmmmmmmm huMMM HOOOOO I say sir (this was shifting). JERUSALEM! The triumph is like that, only at that point you're only at 7.5k or something, and you still have a punk concert where nobody has respect for authority or good dental hygiene waiting before you top out. God I love it. Whatever norton has going on, the only thing I ever heard of is a bomb site. Supposedly it was 'precise'. Tragically the bombs weren't. oh no that's Norden. Ok, so I never heard of norton before that sad youtube of the guy who restored his dad's commando. I believe my personal anecdote is key to triumph's success.
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Mar 18, 2011 00:52
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What the gently caress does any of that mean?
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Mar 18, 2011 01:18
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Z3n posted:Honestly, the Motus has already been made: It's the VFR1200 and it got panned because there was just nothing compelling about it. I have a hard time finding this compelling for the same reason: No potential for race development, no potential for a super light weight, super high HP streetfighter/muscle cruiser (like the VMax/Diavel), as it stands, there's just really nothing about it that wouldn't be done better by a Busa with some bags and bar risers. But by that criteria, no sport-tourer would ever have been successful. You can aim those criticisms at BMW K-GT, Kawi 1400GTR, ST1200, poo poo, even the VFR800, and yet they've all been successful models. Admittedly the lack of tech compared to a few of its competitors might be a mark against it, but you're knocking it because it's not what you want it to be, when the people who it is aimed at don't give a poo poo about the things you want, because they have different wants and needs for their bikes.
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Mar 18, 2011 01:21
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Clank posted:What the gently caress does any of that mean? I'll let this video explain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znmjnEMqHeg
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Mar 18, 2011 01:53
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2ndclasscitizen posted:But by that criteria, no sport-tourer would ever have been successful. You can aim those criticisms at BMW K-GT, Kawi 1400GTR, ST1200, poo poo, even the VFR800, and yet they've all been successful models. Admittedly the lack of tech compared to a few of its competitors might be a mark against it, but you're knocking it because it's not what you want it to be, when the people who it is aimed at don't give a poo poo about the things you want, because they have different wants and needs for their bikes. This goes back to the boutique bike thing though. You can sell those bikes in small quantities, but thus far, as far as I'm aware, no company has ever made the jump from producing small numbers of expensive motorcycles to becoming a mainstream company. And the biggest sellers in the motorcycle market, (again, AFAIK) are not the K series, 1400GTR, ST1200, etc. While there is a certain level of consistent demand for sport touring bikes, I don't think they make up a majority of the sales in the US. I will admit to complete ignorance on the power of the Triumph brand name overseas. TheCosmicMuffet are you account sharing with ChromeCrank? I'm slightly disturbed that I was able to understand what was going on in your post.
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Mar 18, 2011 02:00
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Z3n posted:This goes back to the boutique bike thing though. You can sell those bikes in small quantities, but thus far, as far as I'm aware, no company has ever made the jump from producing small numbers of expensive motorcycles to becoming a mainstream company. And?
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Mar 18, 2011 02:46
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2ndclasscitizen posted:And? So honestly why should I be excited about motus? What will they bring to the american motorcycle market that's not already here? We've got overpriced customs by the truckload.
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Mar 18, 2011 03:01
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2ndclasscitizen posted:But by that criteria, no sport-tourer would ever have been successful. You can aim those criticisms at BMW K-GT, Kawi 1400GTR, ST1200, poo poo, even the VFR800, and yet they've all been successful models. Admittedly the lack of tech compared to a few of its competitors might be a mark against it, but you're knocking it because it's not what you want it to be, when the people who it is aimed at don't give a poo poo about the things you want, because they have different wants and needs for their bikes. What are you talking about? Z3n would never do this. Z3n I think its time you have to be honest with yourself and start to show some self restraint. It seems you only like sportbikes and supermotos. That's fine. However not every bike is a supermoto or sportbike. If someone post about a bike that is not either a supermoto or sportbike and you find yourself making a post about why its terrible, you gotta stop yourself. What's happening is you're not arguing on why the bike is terrible at what it is, your arguing at why the bike is a terrible supermoto/ sportbike when not all bikes are trying to be that.
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Mar 18, 2011 03:23
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Also have hope for these guys: http://www.clevelandcyclewerks.com/ (crosspost from motard thread)
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Mar 18, 2011 03:28
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So apparently you CAN wheelie a Weestrom. Guess I've got a new goal in life.
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Mar 18, 2011 05:42
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Coredump posted:What are you talking about? Z3n would never do this. I like just about anything with 2 wheels that I can ride. My issue with this bike has 2 key parts. The problem with all of these boutique bikes is that none of us will ever have a chance to ride them. Who here has ridden a bimota? A ~24k bike where only a few hundred are made each year means it's a bike that's only ever going tot be seen in pictures or on showroom floors. And that's the pity of it all...it could be a great bike but no one will know. I think it'll be fine as a sport touring bike but casting it as a street fighter seems like they're trying to turn it into something it's just not, and that's where I think they're going wrong. Finally, my posts are just my opinions. Don't worry so much about what I think about something, it's not like they're gonna fail cause some jerk on the internet thinks they're doing it wrong.
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Mar 18, 2011 06:28
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I've been commuting on my bike for a whole 7 days now and tonight some sad little bastard thought it would be a good idea to push it over. I didn't know till I was on my break and went outside to see it lying on it's side. Luckily there isn't too much damage, just the rear indicator stalk is bent upwards at an angle. My disc lock is all chipped to gently caress as well so I don't know if they had a go at that before giving up and pushing it over in frustration. loving people.
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Mar 18, 2011 07:16
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Z3n posted:I think it'll be fine as a sport touring bike but casting it as a street fighter seems like they're trying to turn it into something it's just not, and that's where I think they're going wrong. I pointed this out previously, but to reiterate, the naked version was not intended to be a production model, it was just supposed to be something to let people better see the engine and frame. If you're opposed to a naked Motus, what is your opinion on this then: 
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Mar 18, 2011 07:57
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Ola posted:And I don't think the establish on small bikes -> grow to big bikes is a safer recipe for success, unless you get a huge deal with the MSF or something. Which brands have gone that route in modern times? In Aprilia. A scooter manufacturer which now makes huge V-four superbikes. e: Frankston, if the disc lock is chipped from hitting the brake caliper, it was some scrote trying to wheel it away. If it was chipped somewhere else and on its side, you probably had a slightly more professional thief laying it down to have a go at the lock. Maybe change where you park it? Generally, it's best not to park on the street - people will drive their cars into it. You might be surprised that this is possible, but it is, because people are dicks. Saga fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Mar 18, 2011 |
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Mar 18, 2011 11:49
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2ndclasscitizen posted:I pointed this out previously, but to reiterate, the naked version was not intended to be a production model, it was just supposed to be something to let people better see the engine and frame. If you're opposed to a naked Motus, what is your opinion on this then: Which just kinda further reinforces how spastic they are about things. They started out making a sport touring bike, but they advertise their focus on engine modifications? Who is that appealing to? It's fairly obvious that performance isn't the big selling point for that market. There's a point where you have to realize that the customer isn't always right (and I include my own opinions when I say that), and that a "bunch of interest" in a naked bike doesn't mean you'll actually end up getting a bunch of sales of naked bikes. If they were collecting deposits from people ready to buy the naked bike, then that'd be one thing, but as it is, listening to the "consumer demand" for naked bike makes me think about the "consumer demand" on Cycle Asylum for all the cool standards and small displacement bikes...we don't get them because they don't sell, regardless of how vocal a minority of the riding population gets. I'm opposed to a naked Motus because I think if you're going to specialize, you should specialize. If you're not, you should go all the way and toss that engine in as many different bikes as possible. That engine would be monster in the cruiser market, a reasonably priced, relatively lightweight VMax knockoff could be a huge money maker for them, especially if they played up the  side of things. And that's also a market where engine modifications would go far. The BMW is a different story because if I want to I could pick one up in a few years for relatively cheap, and I'd know for sure that parts would be available for the bike. Plus BMW has an established dealer network, so if I decide to ride it across the country I won't end up in bum gently caress nowhere looking for a machinist to make a replacement part for me. I'm not opposed to nakeds as a matter of fact, it's just that it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for Motus to expand into that market without My thing with bikes is that I'm generally not going to buy something new because there's plenty of great bikes out there that I can buy used for a song. Bikes like the Motus rarely make it on to my radar because even if I could get one that needed some repairs for a song I'd have difficulty getting the tools, parts, and manuals needed to fix the bike.
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Mar 18, 2011 17:10
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So it looks like the retarded bastard child of a Buell and an ER-6F, and its highly original feature is a small block er, I mean, a pushrod V4? How will this not sell!?
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Mar 18, 2011 17:29
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Saga posted:So it looks like the retarded bastard child of a Buell and an ER-6F, and its highly original feature is a small block er, I mean, a pushrod V4? Honestly the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that this should have been a cruiser. American cruiser prices tend to be higher than the Japanese ones so 24k would be a pretty reasonable price, it'd make a big splash in the market with that sort of power plus the "Made in America from the blood of Corvettes" line, and they could also make a bunch of money selling hop up kits for the engines.
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Mar 18, 2011 17:34
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Saga posted:Aprilia. A scooter manufacturer which now makes huge V-four superbikes. Excellent example!
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Mar 18, 2011 18:16
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Ola posted:Excellent example! 50cc mopeds i i V 125s (RS125; Futura) and trials/MX machines i i V Moto 6.5 i i i V RS250 i i V RSV1000 i i i V RSV whatever the thing I can't justify paying for with a V4 and a free naked Max Biaggi centerfold courtesy of Hungstuds magazine. Vaguely from memory, in case anyone, especially in the US, didn't know about them before the Mille. e: Z3n, isn't america already awash with custom manufacturers. Indian and S&S etc?
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Mar 18, 2011 18:24
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Saga posted:e: Z3n, isn't america already awash with custom manufacturers. Indian and S&S etc? Indian is currently dead. S&S just does engines. There are a bunch of people turning out rigid frames for customization and stuff, but they all tend to run Harley engines. If there was another American company making engines, especially ones with power, I think they could have a future. Pushrods could be made into a selling point, too. I think that a legitimately American motorcycle company could succeed, it'd just take careful evaluation of the market and a focused approach to creating the next American motorcycle, as well as shooting for eventually turning into a mass market powerhouse, not just cranking out a few bikes a year. I had hopes for Fischer doing that, as their bikes were supposed to be reasonably priced with a lot of nice hop ups, sort of like an American SV650, but they still haven't really materialized as players yet.
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Mar 18, 2011 18:38
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Indian isn't dead. http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/ The Gilroy Indian, like mine, is dead, but the company has been resurrected, again, and is making some nice, if high end bikes. 
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Mar 18, 2011 18:52
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What about Victory?
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Mar 18, 2011 18:58
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Armyman25 posted:Indian isn't dead. Ahh, my mistake. I hadn't kept up with them after I found out about the Gilroy bankruptcy. The new line of bikes manages to keep that Indian look which is impressive. I really like Victory's cruisers, but they're not really customs, and they have the backing of Polaris, who also own part of KTM. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 18, 2011 |
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Mar 18, 2011 18:59
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Linedance posted:What about Victory? Yep, they're American too (Owned by Polaris). They seem like a nice alternative to Harley, although I can't say how well they're doing, their bikes get decent reviews.
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Mar 18, 2011 19:09
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Doctor Zero posted:Yep, they're American too (Owned by Polaris). They seem like a nice alternative to Harley, although I can't say how well they're doing, their bikes get decent reviews. I think their new bikes are pretty stylish. They just started selling in Europe as well, so hopefully that'll work out well for them.
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Mar 18, 2011 19:11
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Doctor Zero posted:Yep, they're American too (Owned by Polaris). They seem like a nice alternative to Harley, although I can't say how well they're doing, their bikes get decent reviews. According to Wiki, they were started in 1998, and have been moderately profitable since 2002, and expansion into the global market is always a good sign 
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Mar 18, 2011 19:14
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I always thought they were fat and ugly (the touring bike at least), but I'm glad they're around doing their thing with some success. Maybe Motus is trying to follow Victory's route (only without the cruiser option).
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Mar 18, 2011 19:25
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Armyman25 posted:I think their new bikes are pretty stylish. They just started selling in Europe as well, so hopefully that'll work out well for them. I do too. I was going to say that their style tends to be a little polarizing, but I mashed Submit too fast. I personally like the Vision, and it was comfortable as gently caress when I sat on one at the Motorcycle Show. I can see how people might not like it though. Although if they had gone with this concept instead, I probably would have bought one. 
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Mar 18, 2011 19:30
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