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Mister Roboto posted:What about the cop from the Widowmaker arc? He was a black guy, and seemed pretty normal man doing his job. In fact he was so normal I found him kind of boring. I admit to not having read Widowmaker during the weekend I read the rest because it was the only arc in there that I'd read previously because I don't like much, and it had been too long between the readings for me to remember that character. Going back to it I see what you see, a filler character that could be anyone. I'd say that Ennis makes the same mistake with his strong black characters as he does with his strong female characters in that he mistakes willingness to use strength for empowerment and agency, and here I think is the gist of the matter: for me to say that Ennis is subconsciously racist is not correct and not exactly what I was looking for - after all, one of Ennis' more memorable soapbox moments is the Klan scene in Preacher. What he is instead is a guy who likes being correct so much he can't see when he's not. He's really fond of the story device that's the "opposite of epic" where in the end he dispenses some down-to-earth commonsense wisdom and righteousness, which combined with his want of topping himself and his inability to recognize the line of dialog that's that famous "one line too far" become the trinity of all that's wrong with him. Just like he destroys a strong female lead in Preacher by tortuously explaining to us that her power actually flows from the barrel of a gun, Barracuda starts off being the antimatter duplicate of Castle and ends up a one man minstrel show. The reason I first identified this with racism is probably because positive or negative, Ennis seems to slip into stereotypes really easy when he's writing a character
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Mar 19, 2011 15:45
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Could be. Ennis is a man who writes extreme stereotypes as much as possible. But, arguably, one could say that is the essence of the MAX line. 616 has to be kid-friendly, in the end, and can't offend Homosexuals, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Goons, whichever group is a Hot Button topic that week, etc. To put it another way, I think we can accept MAX stereotypes as real. As in, we can probably envision each of the extreme characters actually existing somewhere in the world, because, quite frankly, the world is full of such people. We're all prejudiced to some degree, but the better people out there try to minimize its impact on our behavior. But minimize doesn't mean deny. To illustrate, you know McGinty? Dreadlocked Irish Black Gangster, really ugly, violent looking appearance, described himself as the most "Dangerous friend of the family you'll ever meet" or something similar? I was a bit taken back by that. It just seemed TOO extreme. A few years later I did a paper on the Irish conflicts, and lo and behold, I learned my own prejudices: I didn't realize that Ireland had, yes, the Gangsta subculture as well. In any case, the point is that MAX pushes the envelope, otherwise it wouldn't be MAX. As an aside, I thought of another black character: the good cop from the Slavers arc. He doesn't do much, cracks a few gay jokes and obviously fails to catch the punisher, but he's loyal to his partner and remains a good cop by the end of the arc.
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Mar 19, 2011 16:40
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Mister Roboto posted:To put it another way, I think we can accept MAX stereotypes as real. As in, we can probably envision each of the extreme characters actually existing somewhere in the world, because, quite frankly, the world is full of such people. We're all prejudiced to some degree, but the better people out there try to minimize its impact on our behavior. But minimize doesn't mean deny. With regards to McGinty, referring to himself as a friend of the family doesn't really mean much since that's what you hear in black music too. What did it in for me was that the character as a whole made me feel like I'm looking at A. Wyatt Mann stuff. I may not really have the proper words for it but just feel like there's something here because I don't get the same feeling at all for example from Jim Crow in The Invisibles even though he actually pulls a minstrelsy scene at one point. Deleuzionist fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Mar 19, 2011 |
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Mar 19, 2011 17:18
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Deleuzionist posted:This is an excellect analysis of what the MAX concept is and also precisely why Ennis may not have been the right man for the job, because while he certainly can take us to that dark little pit where all the really bad things hide, he's not able to keep us there. Case in point: the slaver story arc. Here is an enemy worthy of the MAX Castle - an enemy that's cold and inhuman, yet inarguably realistic. The arc even ends with a perfect note when Ennis writes exactly what people who have studied the real world slave trade have concluded, namely that it doesn't matter if you get one, the business goes on... and then Castle lights that pimp on fire and sends a tape of it to his associates. What the gently caress Ennis? Burning that rear end in a top hat was right on par with Castle being Castle, but in order for that statement about there always being more to have any weight the deed should have been a statement of his powerlessness and done because he was in a dead end. As it is, the scene ruins the mood of total despair completely by giving a false sense of hope and accomplishment. I think the burning was showing the Punisher's approach to New York trafficking. "Don't come back here." He didn't go out to Yugoslavia to try and save all the women there, or to shoot up the entire corrupt government. He's often written to be mainly concerned with New York, and, in fact, outright says that the other trips are not his style. He only goes to Russia for Fury, he is really hesitant about the white collar criminals, and I think he even chats with Yorkie about how they can't fix the entire world, but they'll keep their respective corners safe. Hence why Punisher got involved with the Kitchen Irish--to keep them from bringing Belfast to New York.
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Mar 19, 2011 17:42
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Yeah that was the whole point of the scene where he sets that guy on fire, doesn't he even say it doesn't matter if it actually scares that particular trafficking ring away from New York they'll just go somewhere else and some other gang will come to New York. The social worker in that story also ends up disgusted by what she did and is pretty miserable at the end.
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Mar 19, 2011 18:49
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Mister Roboto posted:A few years later I did a paper on the Irish conflicts, and lo and behold, I learned my own prejudices: I didn't realize that Ireland had, yes, the Gangsta subculture as well. As someone slightly younger who grew up quite close to area Ennis is from I think you are missing the ball on this one. That's assuming you don't believe that Prodzilla and Atom-Mick are real.
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Mar 19, 2011 20:21
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TheJoker138 posted:For 616 they already have two excuses for him being younger. Both the whole dying/coming back as an angel/being turned human thing and the more recent coming back from being Frankencastle thing. For MAX, I think they'll probably just at some point stop mentioning Vietnam by name, but that won't become an issue for at least another 10 years or so, and who knows if the MAX series will even still be going at that point. Since Punisher Max is squarely set in his own universe there's really nothing stopping them from at some point saying "This story is from 2003, forever". Aside from maybe less fancy cell phones, not much would change in the telling by saying it happened in the near past.
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Mar 19, 2011 20:33
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Mister Roboto posted:I think the burning was showing the Punisher's approach to New York trafficking. "Don't come back here."
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Mar 19, 2011 22:08
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Lurdiak posted:Since Punisher Max is squarely set in his own universe there's really nothing stopping them from at some point saying "This story is from 2003, forever". Aside from maybe less fancy cell phones, not much would change in the telling by saying it happened in the near past. What about having stories in the past. You could see the Punisher from 197?-recent day.
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Mar 19, 2011 22:20
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Mister Roboto posted:This is similar to how they're treating Magneto, a really old dude but keeps young due to...I assume mutant genes. That could be a cool one-shot. Punisher decides it's time to assassinate Magneto, has his guns ripped apart, and the reformed Magneto has a sit-down with him. Bonding, etc. Last page they shake hands, Punisher hits him with sucker knockout gas, and walks away saying "I'll be watching you." Punisher should just assault Utopia. There's, like, eighty villains there.
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Mar 20, 2011 00:19
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IndecisiveMexican posted:What about having stories in the past. You could see the Punisher from 197?-recent day. I would kill for a Tales Of Punisher MAX series which went over MAX versions of all the earlier 616 stories.
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Mar 20, 2011 00:22
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The ones I'd most like to see MAX-ified are No Rules, Suicide Run, Psychoville, the first Rosalie Carbone arc, Fortress Miami (which was way better than the Krieghof one), and all of the Payback arcs. Without Steve Dillon
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Mar 20, 2011 00:41
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picosecond posted:The coloring and inking on this is great, but look at that gaunt face, the linebacker shoulders and those ham hands -- it makes Castle look like a old dockworker. Which is maybe what he would look like in real life, but is never how I pictured him. Mike Zeck's Punisher is still definitive for me. He reminds me of some old Russian badass, which is an interesting interpretation. Or if you squint, Niko Bellic thirty years down the line. Asphalt Engine posted:http://i51.tinypic.com/2ue1e6b.jpg (Linked for huuuuge) It was the last page of Issue #2, if memory serves. The same one where it's revealed Microchip is a big Doctor Who fan. It's a really well done moment. Especially considering most of the Punisher War Journal stories were slipping from story arcs to one-shot revenge stories (circa PWJ #34 and onward). Come to think of it, that's when the original Punisher title was experimenting with the premise with that awesome 'Final Days' storyline. Mister Roboto posted:I have a feeling we'll be seeing a bit more of that in the next decade as all the war-based characters have to be updated for the new generation. Haven't they already retconned Tony Stark's war origin to be a more modern one? Given 'Heroes Reborn,' I think this will never happen. Marvel's love of making topical characters really did bite them in the rear end, but I can't see the Punisher being anything but the child of Vietnam and the cynicism of that time. Iraq and Afghanistan currently don't have the angst that Vietnam did or the conflicted emotions. I'm not going to get into comparing wars and the horrors of each as measurable quantities, but the Punisher comes from that early '70s cynicism that simply cannot be avoided. He's a child of the times, and changing him would be like changing the Fantastic Four to getting their powers via a radiation wave in a space station: you take away the space race fascination that prompts their experimentation and exploring and simply have four celebrities dealing with their powers. It would work, but it wouldn't be the FF at all. The same goes for Punisher. RevBabyKiller posted:The ones I'd most like to see MAX-ified are No Rules, Suicide Run, Psychoville, the first Rosalie Carbone arc, Fortress Miami (which was way better than the Krieghof one), and all of the Payback arcs. I would also ask for 'Final Days,' but considering what Ennis did in his run, it would be silly to go back to the suicidal, always-in-pain Punisher.
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Mar 20, 2011 17:01
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Gotta say a Punisher thread was the last place I'd expect to see an A. Wyatt Mann reference, but it's totally appropriate.
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Mar 20, 2011 17:04
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:
That was a pretty good arc save for the terrible ending. Changing Frank's skin color to hide his identity is less bizarre than current 616 stuff (FrankenCastle especially) but still pretty far out there
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Mar 20, 2011 17:27
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Boody posted:As someone slightly younger who grew up quite close to area Ennis is from I think you are missing the ball on this one. That's assuming you don't believe that Prodzilla and Atom-Mick are real. I don't know, when I visited Dublin a lot of the young guys wore track suits, chains, and a mean mug. I figured Maginty was just an expression of that, except black. It was a little disconcerting hearing an Irish accent from people who were of Asian or East Indian descent. I mean, it makes sense, they're from Ireland, it was just so different than what I'm used to. One aspect I did like about Barracuda is that even though he dressed like a "gangsta" he hated hip/hop music. He always dug more laid back stuff, or old blues like "Stagger Lee" instead. A nice counter point to how the character presented himself. He really is a weird alternate reality version of Castle. Black instead of white, chaotic instead of lawful, Army versus a Marine. Seriously entertaining though, and the way Ennis did his final moments, with his life flashing before his eyes, was very cinematic. It made the comic move instead of being static.    
Armyman25 fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 20, 2011 |
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Mar 20, 2011 21:29
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Mister Roboto posted:I have a feeling we'll be seeing a bit more of that in the next decade as all the war-based characters have to be updated for the new generation. Haven't they already retconned Tony Stark's war origin to be a more modern one? Yeah, moved to Desert Storm I think.
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Mar 21, 2011 00:13
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Armyman25 posted:He always dug more laid back stuff, or old blues like "Stagger Lee" instead. A nice counter point to how the character presented himself. The thing is, he wasn't singing the old blues version of Stagger Lee, it was Nick Cave's version. Which might give you an idea of Barracuda's plan, since in that version Stagger Lee is brutally raped before being murdered.
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Mar 21, 2011 01:45
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:Given 'Heroes Reborn,' I think this will never happen. Marvel's love of making topical characters really did bite them in the rear end, but I can't see the Punisher being anything but the child of Vietnam and the cynicism of that time. Iraq and Afghanistan currently don't have the angst that Vietnam did or the conflicted emotions. I'm not going to get into comparing wars and the horrors of each as measurable quantities, but the Punisher comes from that early '70s cynicism that simply cannot be avoided. He's a child of the times, and changing him would be like changing the Fantastic Four to getting their powers via a radiation wave in a space station: you take away the space race fascination that prompts their experimentation and exploring and simply have four celebrities dealing with their powers. It would work, but it wouldn't be the FF at all. The same goes for Punisher. Ultimate Fantastic Four worked great at the start, moving from the Space Race to modern military experimentation. They tried with Ultimate Punisher and corrupt police being the cause. That wasn't as good an origin, but it showed they're willing to experiment.
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Mar 21, 2011 03:00
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Mister Roboto posted:Ultimate Fantastic Four worked great at the start, moving from the Space Race to modern military experimentation. I wouldn't say that it's not as good an origin so much as they didn't explore it very much yet and let the concept of Ultimate Punisher sort of sit there for the most part.
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Mar 21, 2011 03:09
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Ultimate Avengers vs. Ultimates pretty much made it clear that Ultimate Punisher is exactly like 616 Punisher which may or may not be a bad thing. 
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Mar 21, 2011 05:23
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RevBabyKiller posted:That was a pretty good arc save for the terrible ending. Changing Frank's skin color to hide his identity is less bizarre than current 616 stuff (FrankenCastle especially) but still pretty far out there I get the feeling it was conceived as a way to change the dynamic of the series (notice that this series came right after the infamous 'baby' cover of Punisher #52) and add some drama, but then got caught up in prepping the return of Luke Cage in his new comic series. Also, the 'Last Rites' arc in Daredevil that finally killed off the Kingpin for the better part of the '90s also helped take away 'Final Days' real thrust. You can tell halfway through that they ran out of ideas on how to deal with the Kingpin setting up Castle and Jigsaw getting his revenge and it just peters out at the finale. Then that whole story arc ends four issues loving later before going onto another one. Then again, that's pretty much par for the course in the '90s for the Punisher: an interesting direction comes out of single story issues that make very little sense only to peter out and get assigned so it fits into the current flavor of the Marvel Universe. Mister Roboto posted:Ultimate Fantastic Four worked great at the start, moving from the Space Race to modern military experimentation. True, but it lacks something. With the Ultimate universe, everybody is pretty much a new character anyway. The UFF simply aren't the same ones. But with the Punisher the only writer to really make him work outside of Vietnam is Ennis and that was because he changed the character so much and made it stick. Plus he made it more of a darker comedy than other writers before him and it fired on all cylinders. Even then, Ennis still stuck to the '70s cynicism that the character cannot escape. Lurdiak posted:I wouldn't say that it's not as good an origin so much as they didn't explore it very much yet and let the concept of Ultimate Punisher sort of sit there for the most part. IndecisiveMexican posted:Ultimate Avengers vs. Ultimates pretty much made it clear that Ultimate Punisher is exactly like 616 Punisher which may or may not be a bad thing. From that bit, the Punisher seems more of a sadist than an obsessive.
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Mar 21, 2011 19:41
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:
He also has no qualms about killing corrupt cops like 616 and MAX Frank both do, as shown by him offing Ultimate Jean DeWolfe in USM a while back.
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Mar 21, 2011 20:39
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TheJoker138 posted:He also has no qualms about killing corrupt cops like 616 and MAX Frank both do, as shown by him offing Ultimate Jean DeWolfe in USM a while back. Would 616 Frank not kill corrupt cops? Seems like an odd compromise for him to spare people who might be just as bad as his normal targets but in a uniform. Ultimate Frank is an ex-cop himself, right? Not a soldier?
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Mar 21, 2011 22:19
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BizarroAzrael posted:Would 616 Frank not kill corrupt cops? Seems like an odd compromise for him to spare people who might be just as bad as his normal targets but in a uniform. If he ever killed a cop, even a corrupt one, he'd forever be a cop-killer and lose what latitude the force gives him.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:21
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BizarroAzrael posted:Would 616 Frank not kill corrupt cops? Seems like an odd compromise for him to spare people who might be just as bad as his normal targets but in a uniform. Ennis' Frank always refused to kill cops, for the reasons Gassire mentioned. He did just cross that line in the current MAX series though, and the cops are on his rear end like a rash now. And yeah, Ultimate Frank was a cop, who's family was killed by other corrupt cops when he refused to join in with them. That's probably colored his view on the subject differently.
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Mar 21, 2011 22:52
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IndecisiveMexican posted:Ultimate Avengers vs. Ultimates pretty much made it clear that Ultimate Punisher is exactly like 616 Punisher which may or may not be a bad thing. Not exactly. He seems like he's going to torture them and enjoys it. 616 Punisher would have just mowed them down, he doesn't torture anyone unless he needs information.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:16
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Could someone post the exact source of that Barracuda mess, maybe where it started? I'd really like to read that book and the art looks fantastic. Is it on Marvel's Digital subscription service? Also, I'm a Nick Cave nerd.
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Mar 22, 2011 19:26
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Digital Scumbag posted:Could someone post the exact source of that Barracuda mess, maybe where it started? I'd really like to read that book and the art looks fantastic. Is it on Marvel's Digital subscription service? I got into Nick Cave because of those issues and an ex-girlfriend. I don't know if they're on the subscription service, but they are collected in trade under the MAX imprint. The Punisher Vol. 6 Barracuda The Punisher Presents Barracuda The Punisher Vol. 9 Long Cold Dark (the pictures posted in this thread came from here.) I like to imagine a Punisher vs. Barracuda movie featuring the music of Nick Cave. It's a nice dream
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Mar 22, 2011 19:48
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I can see it, I'm still pretty sure Nick Cave is actually a Garth Ennis character. Dude once got so high on heroin he bought a leather tuxedo and wore it for five days straight without taking it off or showering, while riding around in a van with Henry Rollins during a South California summer.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:05
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Gassire posted:I can see it, I'm still pretty sure Nick Cave is actually a Garth Ennis character. Dude once got so high on heroin he bought a leather tuxedo and wore it for five days straight without taking it off or showering, while riding around in a van with Henry Rollins during a South California summer. I've been listening to a bunch of his albums lately, and I now know I also need to read about Nick Cave's life.
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Mar 22, 2011 20:14
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DarkCrawler posted:Not exactly. He seems like he's going to torture them and enjoys it. 616 Punisher would have just mowed them down, he doesn't torture anyone unless he needs information. Well 616 does kinda revel in hurting criminals. Remember in the Marvel Knights where he goes to the abandoned subway station he recalls that he left a man to wander around down there to starve to death for variety. Or the time he dragged the homophobic (and murdering) preacher behind his car as he drove off in the desert. 616 (at least when Ennis wrote him) seemed to take sadistic pleasure in killing (even if he didn't really say it)but it is true Max Punisher doesn't seem to torture unless he needs information or to send a message.
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Mar 22, 2011 22:45
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IndecisiveMexican posted:it is true Max Punisher doesn't seem to torture unless he needs information or to send a message. In the Slavers he throws a woman repeatedly against a window until it breaks. He didn't do it to get information or to send a message. In Up is Down, Black is White he leaves Cavella to die a slow and painful death in the forest and isn't it kinda implied that he will go medieval on Rawlins' rear end in Man of Stone? Alhazred fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 22, 2011 |
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Mar 22, 2011 22:51
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Oh god, if someone can get a decent quality shot of Man of Stone's final panel I will be forever in your debt. "Oh no.  "
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Mar 22, 2011 23:25
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Alhazred posted:In the Slavers he throws a woman repeatedly against a window until it breaks. He didn't do it to get information or to send a message. Punisher later admits that he wasn't in his right mind during the Slavers arc and that the level of violence he was visiting upon them was more than he'd normally dole out. The last exchange he has with Cavella is that Nicky had made it personal, which means that he just earned a little more pain than most, nothing else. I'd imagine that the same would be true of Rawlins, given the emotional attachment he had with O'Brien.
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Mar 23, 2011 01:39
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We're also forgetting Punisher vs. Eminem. "Hi / My name is / My name is / BOOM" It's Fred Van Lente, who doesn't write bad comic books, even when it's Punisher vs. Eminem, featuring Barracuda as an out-of-continuity crossdresser, and Salvador LaRocca pulling a Greg Land shamelessly copy-pasting Eminem's face into every scene instead of just drawing it.
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Mar 23, 2011 01:45
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Alhazred posted:isn't it kinda implied that he will go medieval on Rawlins' rear end in Man of Stone? I think it's more Rawlins realizing Frank is one of the few people on earth he can't bullshit or fight - he was pretty high on himself after shanking Dolnovich and just got his hand cut off for trying to pull that trick again.  He wasn't really mad at Rawlins over O'Brien, she stepped on a land mine because she was distracted. He just went after him because she asked him to, and it was a loose end he wanted to tie up anyway.
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Mar 23, 2011 02:20
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Rawlins was a grade-A rear end in a top hat though, even compared to the loving war criminal villain in the story. An average criminal that slips by could cause some damage down the line, but Rawlins is the kind of parasite that fucks things up everywhere he goes because of how selfish and ruthless he is. Frank needs to stop him more than anyone else in the story, but in the end, the man himself is just a lovely little weasel, so it's not much of a fight. I have no doubt Frank gave him a far less merciful end than he gave Dolnovich and the General, though.
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Mar 23, 2011 03:09
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Gassire posted:I can see it, I'm still pretty sure Nick Cave is actually a Garth Ennis character. Dude once got so high on heroin he bought a leather tuxedo and wore it for five days straight without taking it off or showering, while riding around in a van with Henry Rollins during a South California summer. This is the best story.
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Mar 23, 2011 17:02
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J.theYellow posted:We're also forgetting Punisher vs. Eminem. The fact this features The Barracuda in a non cannon/more censored setting is both intriguing and stupid at the same time
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Mar 23, 2011 18:16
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