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Fraction Jackson posted:The only way to win, that I see, would be to have the Banshee challenge the Star Colonel to a duel. Well, it would be in-character. In the past, Caesar's Legion has exploited people's love of dueling to their own advantage. Of course, that was with Caesar Steiner, pre-eminent strategic mind of his generation in command. And he used an AC/10 to launch a pineapple up the rear end of his counterpart in the 2nd Sword of Light. ShadowDragon8685 posted:I wonder - if the tank challenges one of the Clanners under Zel, do you think they'll humor it, or just get pissed and focus fire on it? Armor is inherently dezgra and thus, does not count at all. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 09:27
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Affi posted:There are redacted in the tunnel! Oh god, you're right. We haven't even been taking them into account. This is a loving bloodbath. <Redacted> can't even be Zell-manipulated since they're not 'mechs. Defiance Industries posted:Armor is inherently dezgra and thus, does not count at all. Unless you're fighting Hell's Horses. Still, the question isn't whether it counts under the rules, but whether they'll decide to humor it for being a good sport about horribly dying. Who knows, they might, if the tank seems determined to pick an honor duel.
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Mar 24, 2011 09:33
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Oh god, you're right. We haven't even been taking them into account. They can, actually. Each point of five counts as one mech.
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Mar 24, 2011 09:40
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Forgive my rookie mapreading, but what do the numbers on the buildings (H4, M2, HD4, etc.) mean?
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Mar 24, 2011 09:40
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PoptartsNinja posted:I have to admit, I'm a little confused here. The mission has the Guards protecting the dropships, yet the enemy started right next to them? Seems like they did kind of poo poo job protecting them, then. If the enemy was anybody but clanners the dropships would be toast and the mission failed before the Lyrans even got there.
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Mar 24, 2011 09:46
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I, too, will confess to my confusion. Was there a hot-drop involved?
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Mar 24, 2011 09:50
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Defiance Industries posted:Using Steiner ranks right now since it's appropriate. So then what's a "Star"?
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Mar 24, 2011 09:53
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paragon1 posted:So then what's a "Star"? A Star is five points. A point is five infantry, one tank, aerospace fighter, or 'mech. Stars are grouped in twos; binaries, or threes; trinaries.
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Mar 24, 2011 10:00
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raverrn posted:A Star is five points. A point is five infantry, one tank, aerospace fighter, or 'mech. Anywhere between 3 binaries and 5 trinaries is a Cluster, and 3-5 of those makes a Galaxy. This is all Clan organization, though, and it's an entirely different system. Then you have the Com Guard, who use base six. A level 1 is one Mech or tank or ASF. A level II is six of those. A level III is six level IIs. And a level IV, more commonly referred to as a Division, is six of those. Six Divisions make up an Army, and the Com Guard at this point has twelve Armies. One division is basically two Regiments, if you want an easy shorthand to use. Generally you see IS organization, though. It's used by all Great Houses, and all but the most retarded Periphery powers and Merc outfits. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 10:10
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It looks like you guys could actually set up a pretty decent defense here. You'll probably be best off trying to draw them into the choke-points made by the large buildings. Though I suppose they might just decide to jump on them, or shoot them into rubble... Right. Let's hope for stupidity then!
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Mar 24, 2011 10:14
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Defiance Industries posted:Anywhere between 3 binaries and 5 trinaries is a Cluster, and 3-5 of those makes a Galaxy. This is all Clan organization, though, and it's an entirely different system. Is a galaxy really only 375 mechs? I thought clans only had like 4 galaxies each?
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Mar 24, 2011 10:17
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paragon1 posted:So then what's a "Star"? Basically there are three ways of organising troops in the Battletech Universe the standard way (used by the successor states and most mercs) 4 Mechs to Lance 3 Lances to a Company 3 Companies to a Battalion 3 Battalions to a Regiment and on the rare occasions where they go bigger a Mech regiment plus supporting regiments to a Regimental Combat Team The clan way (used by the clans duh!) 1 mech, 1 Aerospace Fighter, 2 tanks or 5 <Redacted> to a Point 5 Points to a Star 2 Stars to a Binary 3 Stars to a Trinary 3 Trinaries to a Cluster 3-6 Clusters to a Galaxy The Phone company way (comstar and word of blake) 1 Mech, 1 Tank, 1 Aerospace Fighter, 1 Infantry Platoon to a Level I 6 Level I's to a Level II 3 Level II's to a Level III 3 Level III's to Level IV 2-6 Level IV's to a Level V
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Mar 24, 2011 10:18
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Affi posted:Is a galaxy really only 375 mechs? I thought clans only had like 4 galaxies each? Depends on the Clan. In the early 3060s, you had the weakest Clan, Ice Hellion, with only 21 Clusters, and the strongest, Ghost Bear, with 68. Clan Blood Spirit only has three Galaxies, but they probably have as much in straight numbers as Clan Wolf, who field like seven or eight Galaxies but all are stupidly understrength. Keep in mind that only one Clan- Blood Spirit- sticks strictly to the system of "Five Trinaries to a Cluster, Five Clusters to a Galaxy." Blood Spirit would rather disband understrength units and shore up other losses than deviate from that scheme for any real amount of time. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 10:21
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PoptartsNinja posted:Enemy Status Battle Cobra quote:B2 Unknown Medium 2 Ursus quote:B3 Unknown Heavy 1 Thresher (secretly hoping it's a Mad Dog) quote:B4 Unknown Heavy 2 Crossbow quote:B5 Unknown Heavy 3 Hellbringer
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Mar 24, 2011 10:51
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One suggestion when it comes to zell matchups - have the Wolfhound play hide-and-seek in the buildings with one of the 65-tonners, while the Zeus, Cyclops, and Banshee take on the 50-, 60-, and other 65-tonner, respectively.
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Mar 24, 2011 10:53
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an oddly awful oud posted:Battle Cobra I'm not agreeing with this, Crossbow is such an un-clanlike mech. edit; Although Steel Vipers do prefer over-specialized mechs. And speed. If that is a crossbow send the light after it. Get close and stay close and you can even kill it. edit2; loving clanmechs, still if you can get behind it with the ligh.. gently caress if it wins ace and initiative its goodbye  fakeedit3; Okay so I still think the light is the best counter. Stay at range and make it use up its precious ammo. Affi fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 10:56
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Can't be an Ursus, that thing went in to production in 3059 and was personally designed by Bjorn Jorgensson. The odd thing is, I've eliminated all possible Clantech machines that are both 50 tons and only use equipment available prior to the Clan Invasion. Either the Clans have Heavy Lasers (in which case it's either a Nobori-Nin H) or far more unlikely, Poptarts is using Experimental tech from the post-Jihad era on his invasion-era machines and that 50-tonner is a Nova U, which was designed to support zero-G combat on the hulls of WarShips.
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Mar 24, 2011 11:01
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Affi posted:I'm not agreeing with this, Crossbow is such an un-clanlike mech. It's a Steel Viper design so I figure it's possible. My second guess is a Rifleman IIC though, which would prove a point about Clan tech and be much worse for the Guards. Defiance Industries posted:Can't be an Ursus, that thing went in to production in 3059. Either of those options is as ahistorical as an Ursus, but the Ursus uses only basic weaponry so it seems like the most logical possibility. The only canon option is some kind of custom Nova loadout. [Edit- I'm changing my guess on B3 from Thresher to Matador, since the Thresher is stupid and the Matador fits better.] an oddly awful oud fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 11:07
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As much as I like goons, and Somerset Strikers-wannabes, I'm going to root for the clans because upending the status quo is what I am all about. Have fun overtaking the IS, you've earned it 
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Mar 24, 2011 11:23
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Somerset Strikers wannabes? They are the motherfucking Second Donegal Guard. They've been blowing poo poo up before any of the Successor States even existed. Caesar's Legion is what othercunits wish they could be.
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Mar 24, 2011 11:32
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evilmiera posted:As much as I like goons, and Somerset Strikers-wannabes, I'm going to root for the clans because upending the status quo is what I am all about. Have fun overtaking the IS, you've earned it Upending the status quo? Did you see the victory condition? It isn't to beat the Clans. It's to survive longer than the Clanners expected.
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Mar 24, 2011 11:50
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an oddly awful oud posted:Either of those options is as ahistorical as an Ursus, but the Ursus uses only basic weaponry so it seems like the most logical possibility. The only canon option is some kind of custom Nova loadout. B2 can't be an Ursus OR a Black Hawk because it walked 6. an oddly awful oud posted:[Edit- I'm changing my guess on B3 from Thresher to Matador, since the Thresher is stupid and the Matador fits better.] Agreed on the Matador. Like the Crossbow, it's a Steel Viper thing.
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Mar 24, 2011 12:01
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The Merry Marauder posted:B2 can't be an Ursus OR a Black Hawk because it walked 6. Oh poo poo. You're right. It has to be something custom, then, and not a custom Omni... a retrofitted standard 'mech, or a design that PTN made up himself.
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Mar 24, 2011 12:21
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an oddly awful oud posted:Oh poo poo. You're right. It has to be something custom, then, and not a custom Omni... a retrofitted standard 'mech, or a design that PTN made up himself. Either is possible, but I am developing the possibly-irrational theory that Beta Star is largely/entirely non-Omni, given a) the Crossbow (which, while Omni, is pretty much different flavors of missile boat) and the Matador, b) the fact the Invasion was a sudden thing with less time for building up Omni stocks, and c) Steel Viper's Omni-reluctance. Thus, B2 could be a Hellhound with an ECM pack. B5 might be a Rifleman IIC with the Probe swapped for ECM, leaving, um...a Clint or Griffin IIC for B1? Sure, B5 makes sense as a Loki and B1 as a Battle Cobra, but those aren't surprising. The Merry Marauder fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 12:31
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I'm in a mech that likes to fight at long range on an urban map, we're outnumbered by clanners, understrength by a factor of 3 from what a fair fight would be, and if we win we get to fight a star of assaults that would be a match for the better part of a medium-weight line battalion. And we've got four mechs who are no better than the average. With all that, we have to survive for 20 rounds. Do I have this about right? I like that the 'easier to accomplish' victory is wiping out an entire star of Clan omnimechs. I like that a lot. Also, y'all are forgetting that we know PTN has made at least one of his own mechs for this game for the clans. And that history is different -> common mechs are different. BEAR THIS IS MIND. We dunno what from is going to be pounding us. Two other scions of the Steiner family: ADAM STEINER, right? Oh god. Can we friendly fire the dropship? So, team: The big question is if we want to even make a show of sticking to zellbrigen (yes) or if we want to throw a focus fire party and watch as the Clans do that much, much better than us (no). The three chokepoints they're going to be coming through are pretty clear. My Zeus, as said earlier, is going to fight best when sticking at ~5-7 hexes. That means my initial position is going to need to be inside the southeastern area where we've started, probably around that horizontal road north of us. Depending on exactly what I end up brawling, that'll change. I do so love using woods as cover... anyway. I like the look of the southern exit a lot more than the northern exit to our nook. We have to get off the pavement, because we have to be able to run without fear. That means the wooded hills in the center of the map. Alternately, we can make a group dash for the forested hills in the NE corner of the map, and draw out the fight up there. Thoughts? Right now, I'm thinking I like the NE if they don't all have jump jets (they probably do). Additional: Guys, we need a montage. 
Mukaikubo fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 13:05
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Stick to honor duels and play for time!
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Mar 24, 2011 13:12
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Yeah, honor-duel to keep the rounds ticking. No doubt about it. Three questions though! If you break zellbriggen against this star of mechs will the assault star interfere? Or will they let you dishonorably defeat them by agreeing to one on one and then luring the mechs into advantageous positions and starting to focus fire. If the big dropship opens up will the clans destroy the smaller one immediatly or only the bigger one? Where is the rest of 2nd Donegal? Getting defeated elsewhere on the planet?
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Mar 24, 2011 13:19
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Hob_Gadling posted:Account upgrade says the last IS Mech will fall no later than turn 19. This is a nightmare for the freeborns. The map is impossibly hard, with nearly no cover for a running battle. Not that the mechs especially support that, either. Someone should take the man up on this, but if no one does I'll take the bet again Hob. Those Lyrans have fire in their veins! They want victory. I can see them lasting 20 turns no problem. Also, is anyone getting a banner ad in this thread for "Capellan University"?
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Mar 24, 2011 13:20
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Affi posted:Yeah, honor-duel to keep the rounds ticking. No doubt about it. We don't know. Focusing fire could be the excuse they're waiting for to have that assault star obliterate the dropships and then obliterate us. It's way too risky to chance, imo, and honor duels will give us the best chance of prolonging the agony.
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Mar 24, 2011 13:21
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This will be a glorious slaughter. But then, if the lucky rolls from the first mission make a return, Steiner should win this easily. 
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Mar 24, 2011 13:24
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Tarquinn posted:This will be a glorious slaughter. I have to admit, I am wondering who will take up the mantle this match of complaining about how unfairly lucky the PCs are, and if anyone will have the balls to even try seriously when it's 4 IS mechs against 10 clan mechs.
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Mar 24, 2011 13:26
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Mukaikubo posted:We don't know. Focusing fire could be the excuse they're waiting for to have that assault star obliterate the dropships and then obliterate us. It's way too risky to chance, imo, and honor duels will give us the best chance of prolonging the agony. Then we better be loving fast and issue challenges* before the clanners do. That way we can guess what mech is what and try to pair it off with one of our mechs that stand the best chance. We're all generally sure of the Crossbow, and have almost agreed on some of the others. *If we can do this!
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Mar 24, 2011 13:28
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Affi posted:Then we better be loving fast and issue challenges* before the clanners do. That way we can guess what mech is what and try to pair it off with one of our mechs that stand the best chance. Big, big NEG on that, man. Not only can you not be sure about the chassis, but you can not be sure about the weapons loadouts, either. Remember. History Is Different Here. The clans did not develop the same way, and they are not going to have the same weapons loadouts. Challenging early is going to be a damned great way to screw ourselves over, and even if the Steel Vipers as a whole are bastards the low ranking mechwarriors are probably Clanner enough to want the 'best' (hardest) challenges for themselves.
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Mar 24, 2011 13:33
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Mukaikubo posted:I'm in a mech that likes to fight at long range on an urban map, we're outnumbered by clanners, understrength by a factor of 3 from what a fair fight would be, and if we win we get to fight a star of assaults that would be a match for the better part of a medium-weight line battalion. Well phrased. Also, you're all 4 gunners! Good luck with that. Mukaikubo posted:Also, y'all are forgetting that we know PTN has made at least one of his own mechs for this game for the clans. And that history is different -> common mechs are different. BEAR THIS IS MIND. We dunno what from is going to be pounding us. No, we're not. Of course any of the designs could be customs, but 'history being different' didn't stop the Kuritans from deploying a Dragon, Spider, and Jenner; Liao from a Cataphract, Vindie, and a Hot Hammer; and you Steiners from a Zeus and a Steiner-Banshee. Chances are good that some of the few Mechs called out as iconically Steel Viper (Crossbow, Matador, Battle Cobra) are present. Mukaikubo posted:My Zeus, as said earlier, is going to fight best when sticking at ~5-7 hexes. I don't understand this. Why flirt with minimums for the LRMs, and why close the range with bad armor? Affi posted:If the big dropship opens up will the clans destroy the smaller one immediatly or only the bigger one? Well, The Update posted:"Euphrates," Rossi called one of the units' grounded Union-class dropships. "Status?" So neither can fire. Given the bidding, I have my suspicions about the fate of the Leopard, but I don't want to spoil anything for folks unfamiliar with the Clans.
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Mar 24, 2011 13:41
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Mukaikubo posted:Challenging early is going to be a damned great way to screw ourselves over, and even if the Steel Vipers as a whole are bastards the low ranking mechwarriors are probably Clanner enough to want the 'best' (hardest) challenges for themselves. Alright, yeah you're right. and TMM is right in that the dropships can't help us. I'm wondering one other thing though, what will the clans think of our Rommel? They won't bother duelling it I assume. So it can break zellbriggen without fear? I'm not good with my clans.
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Mar 24, 2011 13:47
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Mukaikubo posted:We don't know. Focusing fire could be the excuse they're waiting for to have that assault star obliterate the dropships and then obliterate us. It's way too risky to chance, imo, and honor duels will give us the best chance of prolonging the agony. We could use some clarification on zellbriggen here. If Lyran A shoots at clanner B, who is currently engaging Lyran C, what (probably) happens? 1. Clanner B may shoot back at Lyran A 2. Clanner B and all other currently-engaged clanners may shoot Lyran A 3. All hell breaks loose
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Mar 24, 2011 14:09
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A good poster posted:Forgive my rookie mapreading, but what do the numbers on the buildings (H4, M2, HD4, etc.) mean? I don't think anyone ever answered this, but the letter(s) are the construction factor/sturdiness of the building, and thus how much damage it can absorb (or how heavy a Mech can jump onto it!). Light, Medium, Heavy, HarDened. The number is how many levels high the building is. The Merry Marauder fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 14:15
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Mary Annette posted:We could use some clarification on zellbriggen here. If Lyran A shoots at clanner B, who is currently engaging Lyran C, what (probably) happens? If ONLY Lyran A shoots at clanner B, probably 1, 2, or the unengaged clanners completely obliterate A in a fit of pique. Any more than that, and 3. God help your souls if 3. Best tactic here seems to be to near cripple at least one mech and draw the duels out as long as possible to give the dropships time to boost for orbit.
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Mar 24, 2011 14:24
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"PoptartsNinja posted:The 1st Lyran Guards look forward to second place and their continued survival with 8 votes! Is this just fluff, or did we doom the ComGuards to get slaughtered "off-screen" by only managing to swing 4 votes? Because if that happens, I hope the Steel Vipers nuke the poo poo out of Caesar Steiner. 
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Mar 24, 2011 14:40
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Mary Annette posted:We could use some clarification on zellbriggen here. If Lyran A shoots at clanner B, who is currently engaging Lyran C, what (probably) happens? All three are possibilities - 1 is the 'correct' response, but such activity will usually get the Lyrans declared dezgra and turn it into a free-for-all. But since we're on the topic... A Newbie's Guide To Zellbrigen or How To Exploit The Clans For Personal Profit And Survival The overriding factor of Clan tactics is Zellbrigen - the Clan rules for honorable combat. They were created as part of the Clan's focus on honorable warfare and focusing on the skill of a warrior with the side effect of encouraging the least amount of waste (in terms of personnel and material) in a fight. The core of zell is challenges. In battle, a Clan warrior issues a challenge to a specific opponent, usually via open-band radio. This has grown to include the batchall, which is half a statement identifying who you are and half a string of veiled insults about your opponent. An example of a Clan challenge, stolen from Total Warfare: "I am Mechwarrior Seth of Clan Steel Viper. I pilot the sole Summoner in Alpha Star. I hearby invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge the pilot of the Orion adorned with the unit designation eleven to a duel of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!" Clan challenges like this are normally very strict - you duel one on one, unless a pilot is cocky enough to challenge multiple opponents at once. Firing on anyone else will at minimum allow that other opponent to join in as well - shooting someone, even accidentally, is considered an implicit challenge. At worst, such a move will have you declared dezgra, or honorless. This means that no Clan honor rules apply to you, and they can dogpile you into the ground without caring. As a side note, most non-mech combatants are automatically consided dezgra, so tanks and infantry are SOL. In Clan eyes, they're unworthy as such units do not represent the strength of a single warrior. Zellbrigen has other rules too - area effect and other dishonorable weapons (artillery, mines and physical attacks) are forbidden; you may not evade combat by purposely moving out of line-of-sight or out of range once a challenge has been issued; you may not insult your opponent by failing to fire on them if you are able; you do not have to accept a challenge as long as you instead challenge a more worthy opponent; never firing on an ejected pilot; the greatest honor is gained by fighting in a disadvantaged way; and so on. Some Clans and warriors take it further, adding things like not firing on a fallen mech, but that is uncommon and can't be relied on. In canon, the Inner Sphere won a lot of their victories by using the Clan's honor system against them. Zell can be manipulated if you're smart and only abide by it when it's convenient for you. As a result of this, however, canonically the Clans eventually wised up and loosened their honor rules when fighting IS opponents. Oh, by the way, one other thing. Mercenaries are automatically dezgra and are considered by the Clans to be little more than bandits. So, uh, if we get into that situation watch out.
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