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Dotcom656 posted:"One bad apple spoils the bunch" I really got that as a counterpoint once to this argument. I don't know if you think it will work, but when I read that I immediately thought, "How?" Maybe asking her to explain how exactly one bad person on welfare spoils a hundred good people on welfare. The analogy makes literally no sense when applied to this situation.
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Mar 24, 2011 05:35
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Apparently just a few people abusing welfare literally means that the abuse is gonna spread to everyone. And when I use the crusades as a counter-point they go on about how the Christians had to defend the holy land and it was a different time etc. At this point I just walk away. I once tried to tell someone "You know stem cells don't all come from aborted fetuses." their response? "Well you cant believe everything you hear on the internet" I had printed out reliable news articles and stuff too.  These people are beyond any kind of critical thinking. High school was a very hard time for me. I have a fair bit of memorable quotes. The other half? I think I'm just going to mentally repress it. Dotcom656 fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 05:42
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Dotcom656 posted:Apparently just a few people abusing welfare literally means that the abuse is gonna spread to everyone. How? When someone falls back on the "turtles all the way down" defense* you have to press them on it, because it's a non-answer. She did not give any mechanism by which her prediction might come true. She just re-stated the aphorism in context. It doesn't make any more sense because she switched from an analogy to speaking in real terms. The only way to get through to people like this is to cajole them into thinking. Many people are not used to thinking, to the extent that they don't like to do it and get anxious when they have to think. You will get a lot of pre-loaded "thought bites" from people like this, in the form of parroted talking points but also stereotypes, aphorisms and thought-terminating cliches. You will never get anywhere with such people through complicated argument or forceful statements. They will only shut down and retreat to the comfortable, pre-loaded thoughts that are familiar to them. I'm not being facetious at all here, lots of people just don't have much experience with consequential thought and aren't very comfortable with forming their own ideas and opinions. But if you can be simultaneously gentle and probing, your subject will sometimes reward you with a flicker in their eyes that shows they are actually processing what you said and forming new ideas. You can really see this, people's eyes tend to be fairly static when they are repeating things they already know or believe. When people actually go to the effort of thinking and forming a new opinion their eyes move around a lot more. You just have to be patient and continue probing their assumptions as an interlocutor, not as an opponent. If you flat-out challenge cherished beliefs you are a threat and they will double down on even the most ridiculous ideas in self-defense. If you try to portray yourself as a sane and non-threatening person who is merely curious about their beliefs (and who doesn't like talking about their opinions?) you can get them to take another look at their ideas. Often people like this don't know why they believe something, so having to defend it produces anxiety. But if they are gently asked about the underlying principles for their belief, they may discover that they are not so sure anymore and start to actually think about how (and whether) that belief gels with their identity. If they have personal experience with the subject, asking them about it is incredibly helpful, because it jump-starts the introspection. You would not believe how fast people start actually thinking when you bring their personal experiences into the argument and helpfully guide them into generalizing from their own experiences rather than from something an authority figure told them. (In my personal case, illegal immigration comes up a lot and people immediately start to change their position when the topic switches from "drat illegals sucking up all our resources" to "the illegals I employ are all wonderful people but we still have to do something about this problem.")** You generally won't get people like this to admit they are wrong, but you can start them thinking about their beliefs, which many people just don't do. Once people actually start thinking about what they themselves might believe (as opposed to the beliefs they have adopted from authority figures) you are a lot more likely to get a compromise out of them. I have these conversations with some regularity (Wisconsin liberal who recently moved into very rural Arizona) and since I've given up trying to make people agree with me I have had much more success in changing people's minds. *Defending a flawed argument using the same argument, without addressing the flaw in the argument at all. **Yes, people in Arizona rail against illegal immigration while paying illegal immigrants to do things cheaper than an American would. And they get really defensive if you point out this dissonance even in the nicest way possible. It's a bottleneck in conversations, if they can admit that their personal case illustrates the problem at hand then they will usually be willing to listen and compromise, if they can't then they are going to turtle up and never listen. If this thread was "crazy political conversations you have in person" I would be posting here all the time. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 06:28
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Corbet posted:Looks like we should throw out all free market principles/capitalism thanks to the financial crisis! Uh need I remind you this was caused by Obama and his socialist ways, it goes back to Roosevelt and the New Deal, here I have a chart.
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Mar 24, 2011 16:27
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Dotcom656 posted:Apparently just a few people abusing welfare literally means that the abuse is gonna spread to everyone. And when I use the crusades as a counter-point they go on about how the Christians had to defend the holy land and it was a different time etc. Nono, let it out, that's what this thread is for.
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Mar 24, 2011 16:35
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Mom posted:Everyone in America is owed nothing...unless truly disabled like no arms...can't work.. I like that she chose this as the disability that excuses you from work. I guess you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps without arms?
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Mar 24, 2011 16:50
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Or legs! 
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Mar 24, 2011 16:55
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Syjefroi posted:"Everybody in America has the same opportunities to succeed." http://voices.washingtonpost.com/reliable-source/2011/03/david_simons_statement_on_feli.html I love to quote this piece by David Simon after the actress who played Snoop on The Wire was arrested in a mass heroin bust. He's a man who loves his city, but hates what it has become. For anyone, especially well-off white people in the suburbs, to claim that everyone has equal opportunity in America demonstrates a sickening amount of willful ignorance. quote:Then tell them that due to the actions of the Catholic Church circa the Crusades all Christianity should now be thrown out the window, if that argument is true. Or more recently, the numerous Catholic priests molesting children all over the world. Or Ted Haggard, or Jim Bakker, or Bishop Eddie Long, or ... The "one bad apple" analogy can be used to disparage everything, if we want to paint with a wide brush. But I guess for the conservative retard, it only applies when used for their own purposes. quote:Bling Bling for food stamps When people make this kind of statement, I ask them to show me, either on a map or in person, where I can find a jewelry store or DUB RIMZ shop that will accept food stamps as payment. red19fire fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 17:10
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Orange Devil posted:Nono, let it out, that's what this thread is for.  sake.Context. This was the first week of senior level anatomy class this was said by the teacher in response to something about estrogen and the female body. I dont remember exactly what was said but I remember with perfect clarity what she said. "I don't know what estrogen is. Because I'm not a lesbian" Mind you this was our anatomy teacher. She meant this entirely and it only set the precedent for the rest of that class. She was also not qualified at all to be teaching that class seeing as her only degree was simple math and then a degree in bible study from some seminary college.
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Mar 24, 2011 17:18
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Pontius Pilate posted:I like that she chose this as the disability that excuses you from work. I guess you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps without arms? "Got Down-Syndrome? gently caress you, go work at Goodwill you lazy shithead."
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Mar 24, 2011 17:24
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red19fire posted:When people make this kind of statement, I ask them to show me, either on a map or in person, where I can find a jewelry store or DUB RIMZ shop that will accept food stamps as payment. I think the point is that people who can afford said jewelry clearly have enough money and should be spending it on money and not diamonds. This is a good point except it doesn't happen. It's an image created to make conservatives angry but they've never seen it in person, even if they think they have.
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Mar 24, 2011 17:39
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And let's be honest: any "bling bling" that poor people would have is just cheap plated crap. The way conservatives go on about it, you'd think it was from Tiffany's or something!
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Mar 24, 2011 17:44
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Yes, because poor people shouldn't have things that make them happy. In fact, why should they even be allowed to get junk food? They should only be allowed to use their food stamps for amino acid protein enriched feed and distilled water.
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Mar 24, 2011 17:44
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the posted:Yes, because poor people shouldn't have things that make them happy. In fact, why should they even be allowed to get junk food? They should only be allowed to use their food stamps for amino acid protein enriched feed and distilled water. Well there's a difference. I'm not saying that poor people shouldn't have nice things, just that financial responsibility is an important thing no matter how rich or poor you are. The middle class buying houses beyond their means is what got us in this mess, for example. But like I said the "poor people buy diamond studded 24k necklaces instead of any food" is a myth.
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Mar 24, 2011 17:46
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I just always assumed there was a special check out for welfare queens buying steaks and pork chops with food stamps, how else does my dad see them every time he goes to shop(by himself)? I wouldn't say it never happens, I checked out people buying milkshakes with an EBT card, but strangely they were white and absent any "bling bling". nsaP fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 17:50
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the posted:Yes, because poor people shouldn't have things that make them happy. In fact, why should they even be allowed to get junk food? They should only be allowed to use their food stamps for amino acid protein enriched feed and distilled water. This would be a vast step up from the corn-based corn on top of corn with a side of corn diet the poor eat right now. Almost the entirety of the center aisles of the grocery store are corn-based products. I believe sincerely that it is murdering this country. ErIog fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Mar 24, 2011 |
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Mar 24, 2011 17:53
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I work at a cinema that just switched to drink cups and lids that are made of bio-degradable corn. So now we serve popcorn with a side of coca cola with high fructose corn syrup that comes in a container made of corn. If someone could invent a corn bag, then we would literally be serving the customer entirely corn.
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Mar 24, 2011 18:01
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RagnarokAngel posted:The middle class buying houses beyond their means is what got us in this mess, for example. Not even the dissent on the FCIC report lays blame squarely at the feet of mortgage borrowers. The closest it gets is impugning government policy that relaxed lending requirements.
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Mar 24, 2011 18:15
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the posted:They should only be allowed to use their food stamps for amino acid protein enriched feed and distilled water. I'm actually okay with this. Gotta fight the obesity epidemic somehow.
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Mar 24, 2011 20:17
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RagnarokAngel posted:The middle class buying houses beyond their means is what got us in this mess, for example. Point of order here, but the deregulation of financial industries and products coupled with extraordinary short sightedness and lack of self-regulation within the industry (surprise surprise) leading to what pretty much amounts to fraud is what got us in this mess. That's not to say that middle class families weren't buying houses, but banks were all too happy to offer them loans that the banks knew in advance they couldn't pay because they were betting that by the time the homeowner's defaulted they'd have thrown the hot potato off to someone else for a nice fee. As it turns out for a lot of people that someone else was their pension plans, who were assured these lovely home loans and derivatives that were cut up into triple A rated slices were safe as could be. After all, they had the highest rating of any product on the market! They had no idea the ratings were garbage, and that even the banks couldn't keep track of how much risk they were exposed to but kept piling it on anyway until, when the housing bubble finally burst, everyone got hosed. Well, not everyone. The banks which made money hand over fist for years might have collapsed, but some got bailed out, and the people running the banks sure seem to be living comfortably still.
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Mar 24, 2011 21:34
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Okay, I got one today that I will share with you. Sorry it's not as crazy as some of the others posted here. I actually agree the conclusion of it, despite railing against ObamaCare: "No one has been able to explain to me why young men and women serve in the U.S. Military for 20 years, risking their lives protecting freedom, and only get 50% of their pay. While politicians hold their political positions in the safe confines of the capital, protected by these same men and women, and receive full pay retirement after serving one term. It just does not make any sense. Monday on Fox news they learned that the staffers of Congress family members are exempt from having to pay back student loans. This will get national attention if other news networks will broadcast it. When you add this to the below, just where will all of it stop? 35 States file lawsuit against the Federal Government Governors of 35 states have filed suit against the Federal Government for imposing unlawful burdens upon them. It only takes 38 (of the 50) States to convene a Constitutional Convention. This will take less than thirty seconds to read. If you agree, please pass it on. This is an idea that we should address. For too long we have been too complacent about the workings of Congress. Many citizens had no idea that members of Congress could retire with the same pay after only one term, that they specifically exempted themselves from many of the laws they have passed (such as being exempt from any fear of prosecution for sexual harassment) while ordinary citizens must live under those laws. The latest is to exempt themselves from the Healthcare Reform... in all of its forms. Somehow, that doesn't seem logical. We do not have an elite that is above the law. I truly don't care if they are Democrat, Republican, Independent or whatever. The self-serving must stop. If each person that receives this will forward it on to 20 people, in three days, most people in The United States of America will have the message.. This is one proposal that really should be passed around. Proposed 28th Amendment to the United States Constitution: "Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and/or Representatives; and, Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States." You are one of my 20."
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Mar 25, 2011 05:16
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Christmas and birthdays are going to suck once they pass that 28th Amendment.
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Mar 25, 2011 10:56
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Corbet posted:I swear, every conservative believes this. Apparently Europe is full of 3rd world nations. On two separate occasions I have randomly bumped into American tourists in Europe who have expressed surprise that people seem wealthy or the country they are visiting isn't a shithole. One girl reassured her friends that it's just the tourist areas - obviously the rest of the country isn't like that... I wish you guys would travel more 
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Mar 25, 2011 13:17
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Anosmoman posted:On two separate occasions I have randomly bumped into American tourists in Europe who have expressed surprise that people seem wealthy or the country they are visiting isn't a shithole. One girl reassured her friends that it's just the tourist areas - obviously the rest of the country isn't like that... It's pretty simple really - America is #1 and God's favourite country. For all the problems America faces such as: high unemployment, failing schools, and a Marxist president that's wilfully destroying the nation, other countries must be doing so much worse.
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Mar 25, 2011 13:42
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Anosmoman posted:On two separate occasions I have randomly bumped into American tourists in Europe who have expressed surprise that people seem wealthy or the country they are visiting isn't a shithole. One girl reassured her friends that it's just the tourist areas - obviously the rest of the country isn't like that... Keep telling them it's the touristy areas so they'll stay the gently caress out of the beautiful parts of Europe
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Mar 25, 2011 14:41
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Anosmoman posted:I wish you guys would travel more
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Mar 25, 2011 15:11
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Dotcom656 posted:"One bad apple spoils the bunch" I really got that as a counterpoint once to this argument. Well this should be easy. Haditha = everyone in the US military are murderous animals.
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Mar 25, 2011 15:38
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"It's a heartless bitch who lets partisan or philosophical zealotry lead her to the public defamation of her own child." That is exactly what I would say to my mother in this situation, and my being a father now would only harden my resolve to let her know just how goddam craven it is, flouting her insufferable self-righteousness on Facebook and not even the least bit shamed at her own inability to elevate her own offspring. I really don't think I want to even believe that poo poo is real.
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Mar 25, 2011 17:47
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quote:No one has been able to explain to me why young men and women serve in the It took me a few readings to figure out that "50% of their pay" was in reference to pension. Here's a couple of links to debunk the pension claim about members of Congress: http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blcongress.htm http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/congresspay.htm With an average pension pay of $40k and congressional salaries of $174k, there's just no way that they're getting the claimed benefit. It looks like retirement from the military does yield a pension of about 50% pay, but the nominal figure gets adjusted up each year to keep pace with inflation. You also get to retire after year 20, which could yield a pension for a 38 year old.
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Mar 25, 2011 18:22
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Anosmoman posted:On two separate occasions I have randomly bumped into American tourists in Europe who have expressed surprise that people seem wealthy or the country they are visiting isn't a shithole. One girl reassured her friends that it's just the tourist areas - obviously the rest of the country isn't like that... I think one of the reasons we don't is that America is so goddamn big all by itself and we're seriously hurting for vacation days compared to the rest of the developed world. I've got a nice upper middle class job, and I still only get 14 days per year combined vacation and sick days. Friends get even less, which makes it even harder to coordinate a trip. I'd love to travel to Europe, but the plane ticket alone is going to run me more than $1000, and transportation is going to eat a day of vacation each way. However, I can drive to any national park within a few hundred miles for cheap and arrive before the sun sets.
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Mar 25, 2011 18:27
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There's a pretty good quote I had on my facebook page for a while that went something like "Every year thousands of Americans travel to foreign countries and are shocked to find out that they don't cheer 'We're number two!'"
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Mar 25, 2011 19:11
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nerfninja posted:Okay, I got one today that I will share with you. Sorry it's not as crazy as some of the others posted here. I actually agree the conclusion of it, despite railing against ObamaCare: It may surprise you to know that pretty much all of the assertions made in that e-mail are false! http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/28thamendment.asp
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Mar 25, 2011 19:21
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Zwiftef posted:Pretty much. If you really want to piss her off ask her why she failed your sister so much in childhood. Please do this and then tell us the outcome. This is really the only way to set off the conversation that will eventually either give her an epiphany or make her head explode.
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Mar 25, 2011 19:49
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Miss Fats posted:It may surprise you to know that pretty much all of the assertions made in that e-mail are false! It does not in fact surprise me, however I thank you for the snopes link.
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Mar 25, 2011 20:11
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Thank goodness we have these modern philosophers to come up with fresh concepts like the rule of law. If only people centuries ago had thought of these things.
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Mar 25, 2011 20:40
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Sock on a Fish posted:I think one of the reasons we don't is that America is so goddamn big all by itself and we're seriously hurting for vacation days compared to the rest of the developed world.
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Mar 26, 2011 14:34
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Sock on a Fish posted:I think one of the reasons we don't is that America is so goddamn big all by itself and we're seriously hurting for vacation days compared to the rest of the developed world. I've got a nice upper middle class job, and I still only get 14 days per year combined vacation and sick days. Friends get even less, which makes it even harder to coordinate a trip. How is that legal? In Ireland we get 21 days excluding sick days. Infact if you get sick while on holidays those days dont could as holidays. How many public holidays do you get? We have to make do with 9 
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Mar 26, 2011 15:48
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bpower posted:How is that legal? In Ireland we get 21 days excluding sick days. Infact if you get sick while on holidays those days dont could as holidays. How many public holidays do you get? We have to make do with 9 We still usually get weekends off though! Really it's not that bad.
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Mar 26, 2011 15:54
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bpower posted:How is that legal? In Ireland we get 21 days excluding sick days. Infact if you get sick while on holidays those days dont could as holidays. How many public holidays do you get? We have to make do with 9 Six: New Year's, Memorial Day, Fourth of July (Independence Day), Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas.
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Mar 26, 2011 19:37
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bpower posted:How is that legal? In Ireland we get 21 days excluding sick days. Infact if you get sick while on holidays those days dont could as holidays. How many public holidays do you get? We have to make do with 9 When I worked for FedEx we got 1... but we got to choose which one!
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Mar 26, 2011 19:59
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