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RurouNNy posted:I came across this video, and I am sort of baffled by what point they are trying to get across. (warning: the dude recording the video has a horrible, loud voice, and the guy being filmed wasn't close to the mic, so he is really quiet) Basically, they are trying to show that you can use an electronic collar in place of a clicker for training and blah blah blah, the collar isn't negative if the dog doesn't perceive it that way. While the puppy is doing what they ask, he seems hesitant (especially after they turn it up) ... so why would anyone use something aversive and claim it is neutral (like the clicker)? I would think their response time would always lag. Also, the dude's tone all through the video was really rubbing me the wrong way Yeah, I'm not sure what they're trying to prove with that. They go to show that a low level stim can be conditioned as a reinforcer, then they say that he is "not trying to convince you folks that the collar is positive, because let's face it, it's a remote collar, it's not positive." I agree that just about anything can be conditioned as a positive reinforcer with strong enough classical conditioning, however they're very off base to claim that the collar stim is a neutral stimulus in the exact same way the click of the clicker is. I've tested e-collars on myself and I would not describe even the lowest settings as neutral. Low enough intensity to be conditioned into a positive, sure, but it's not neutral. I think what they're doing in this video is important to lay the groundwork for proper e-collar usage later -- the collar does not have to be innately negative (and they're doing their jobs wrong if it is). But I think they're exaggerating it as a reinforcement tool to attempt to make a point that they're unable to actually make (e-collar training is just like clicker training... only better). Plus, it's distressing to know that MOST people who have a dog with a behavioural problem and opt to use an e-collar won't spend the required time conditioning the dog to it properly and will very often only end up compounding the problem by rushing for a quick fix. Properly and responsibly used e-collars do indeed have their place. But I strongly disagree that the Average Joe Dog Owner should ever attempt to use one, especially without some serious one on one time with a stellar trainer. The pup doesn't seem particularly stressed during the ordeal. He's doing some lip licking, but it's not particularly intense, and I think the hesitation you saw might have been the dog thinking through the exercise. The pup looks to be a working-line Malinois, and those dogs are bred to be hard tempered bundles of energy. As for the narrator (I think it was Fred Hassen), yeah, he was pretty obnoxiously smug. Anyways, that's my ramble!
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Mar 23, 2011 17:54
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Wondering what anyone else's take on it was?
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a life less I need some help with shaping. I've been terribly lazy about training new things lately and I decided I want to teach Eris to put her paw over her nose/snout. She doesn't do this at all naturally and so I was wondering if you had any suggestions on how I could encourage it and then capture it. It doesn't really seem like something I could lure.
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Mar 23, 2011 18:13
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^ Not a life less, but put a piece of sticky tape on her nose. She'll try to paw it off, guaranteed - though this isn't really shaping anymore 
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Mar 23, 2011 18:46
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Rixatrix posted:^ Not a life less, but put a piece of sticky tape on her nose. She'll try to paw it off, guaranteed - though this isn't really shaping anymore I was trying to do the same thing with Moxie, but she got really offended by the tape and them wouldn't come near me anymore or look at me. I felt really bad and stopped trying for that trick altogether. So yeah, count me in as interested if there are other ways to teach that too.
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Mar 23, 2011 19:20
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Cassiope posted:I was trying to do the same thing with Moxie, but she got really offended by the tape and them wouldn't come near me anymore or look at me. I felt really bad and stopped trying for that trick altogether. Have you tried teach a touch-with-paw command? Then move that target to her nose?
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Mar 23, 2011 19:43
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Cassiope posted:So yeah, count me in as interested if there are other ways to teach that too. )Free shaping should work as well, but it takes more skill to train that way.
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Mar 23, 2011 20:40
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Yeah I was mostly looking to induce the behavior to capture, I definitely don't have the skill to do any advanced free shaping or anything. a life less also recommended a post it note so I think I'll be playing around with that this week. I'm excited  Also she might kill me.
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Mar 23, 2011 22:51
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rivals posted:a life less I need some help with shaping. I've been terribly lazy about training new things lately and I decided I want to teach Eris to put her paw over her nose/snout. She doesn't do this at all naturally and so I was wondering if you had any suggestions on how I could encourage it and then capture it. It doesn't really seem like something I could lure. Here's a video I like for how to teach the nose/paw trick. I never ended up finishing this trick with Cohen. I think I mostly just lost track of it, but I think she also felt that the tape on the nose was too aversive and didn't enjoy our sessions. You'll notice in the video he says to keep sessions short and rewards high in value to attempt to counteract the mild aversive of the tape on the nose. It's a matter of using the tape to create the action which you then capture and shape to the desired level.
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Mar 24, 2011 00:52
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I advanced really quickly with this behavior and didn't use the tape for very long. I think I faded it after a couple of repetitions during our first session and had it on Pi's nose for one or two clicks to begin a session after that, but only for a couple of 10-treat sessions. He started offering the paw movement reliably after that and I could just shape the trick from there. Just limiting the time you use the tape as a prop and using really awesome rewards would probably make it less aversive for the dog?
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Mar 24, 2011 08:14
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Are there any tips towards using the clicker to train out biting and nipping behavior? Our cattle dog is responding wonderfully to positive reinforcement training, and picks up tricks and behaviors with only a few repetitions. But the biting... she gets mouthy when excited or happy. It doesn't matter if we're coming in the door after being away at work, playing with a toy, or just sitting on the couch and calling her to come over; as soon as her tail starts wagging her mouth opens and clamps down on the nearest limb. My boyfriend and I have tried the loudest, most absurd pained yelps possible when her teeth make contact with skin, but that sound doesn't have an adverse effect at all, it's like she thinks she's found some new and exciting squeak toy. And she doesn't seem to "get" it if we stand up and turn away as she's biting. She's not food aggressive, nor is she a fear biter-- she's actually quite docile when she seems nervous or uncertain in a situation. She specifically seems to associate happiness with biting, and she will go bite crazy and chomp on her own leg for a few seconds if I pull my arm out of her mouth. Is it possible to do this without negative punishment? Maybe clicking and treating when she's not biting? I'm afraid I don't even know where to begin. It's specifically a problem that only my boyfriend and I are dealing with, because she only bites people she's happy to see, and she tends to be timid and quiet around strangers. We had a similar problem with her mouthing the couch out of excitement when we first brought her home, but redirecting her onto appropriate toys/chews worked really well for that. Unfortunately, when it comes to biting us, we're not having much luck with that same technique. And bitter apple is such a deterrent that she won't come within five feet of us if we spray it on ourselves, so that's not getting us anywhere with biting either. 
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Mar 24, 2011 13:20
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Ginny Field posted:Are there any tips towards using the clicker to train out biting and nipping behavior? Our cattle dog is responding wonderfully to positive reinforcement training, and picks up tricks and behaviors with only a few repetitions. My dog was a huge mouther when we first got her, she'd do it when she got excited or wanted attention, or just whenever. If turning your back isn't strong enough, I would suggest trying time outs. If your dog bites you, stick her in a bathroom until she is calm and quiet, then let her out. She goes back in if she does it again. You don't need to say anything or be mad or yank her into the bathroom or anything, so I think it's a very mild punishment and it's really helped us (plus it teaches the dog calming down quickly). On the non-punishment side, we started playing a game. We would have her lay down and then make motions toward her with our hands. Normally a hand moving toward her was an obvious opportunity for mouthing, so she would bite or follow the movement with an open mouth, etc. Obviously you want to click and treat any other behavior. Find a distance and small motion where your dog maybe just looks with a close mouth or ignores. Click and treat. Then work up to anything that might encourage mouthing. Wave your hands around, move them along the ground like a critter, put them over her head and around her sides and just keep click/treating any reaction that doesn't involve her mouth/teeth. This combined with timeouts or otherwise just stopping interactions when biting was inappropriate made a ton of difference for us. Psyche's mouthing went down by 90% in like a month or two of us casually discouraging it and playing these kinds of games.
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Mar 24, 2011 13:39
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Kiri koli posted:My dog was a huge mouther when we first got her, she'd do it when she got excited or wanted attention, or just whenever. If turning your back isn't strong enough, I would suggest trying time outs. If your dog bites you, stick her in a bathroom until she is calm and quiet, then let her out. She goes back in if she does it again. You don't need to say anything or be mad or yank her into the bathroom or anything, so I think it's a very mild punishment and it's really helped us (plus it teaches the dog calming down quickly). My dog scratched and destroyed the pain on the inside of our bathroom. Another treat question. Has anyone made or used gizzards (chicken) as treats, they are ridiculously cheap so I'm cooking them like I would liver, but is there any reason why they would be bad to use?
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Mar 24, 2011 17:55
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Ridonkulous posted:My dog scratched and destroyed the pain on the inside of our bathroom. That sucks. It doesn't need to be a bathroom though. You can try and be creative and find somewhere that they can't destroy anything. Psyche would attack the toilet paper or hanging towels at first, so we started hooking her leash to the door so she couldn't reach them. You could also do a time out in a pen-type situation, use a baby gate to section off the kitchen or something. Another option is to teach a very strong 'Go to mat' command where your dog goes and stays on a doggie bed or mat or a square of carpet/foam/etc. Then your dog can have a time out/calm down time on the mat. Unfortunately, no one thing works for every dog, so ymmv with time-outs. They just have worked very well with us so I thought I'd suggest it.
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Mar 24, 2011 18:13
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Ridonkulous posted:My dog scratched and destroyed the pain on the inside of our bathroom. I put myself in time-out in the bathroom when my dog is getting too into rough play or mouthing. YMMV because Major is a total attention whore and me leaving is tragic for him but might not be for your dog. I don't see any reason why gizzards would be bad. If your dog likes them, go for it!
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Mar 24, 2011 18:30
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Crossposting this here on Kerfuffle's advice: I have an issue when I take my dogs on walks. Neither of them like big dogs. When we got Daisy (she's a beagle mix), the shelter said that when she was found she'd been tied to a mastiff with a rope and had been basically dragged around for who knows how long. We saw the mastiff and he was huge, easily up to my waist, so I can understand why she doesn't like big dogs. She freaks out when she sees them. We try to do the whole give her treats when she sees them so she starts to associate them with good things routine and it works a little, but not all the time. But at least I know what I'm supposed to do. The big problem is with Violet. She's a 14 week old beagle mix and just starting to get walks longer than up and down our street. When she sees a big dog she basically shuts down. She doesn't bark, growl, whine or any of the stuff Daisy does, she just stops and will not move or respond to anything, not even treats. I usually have to just pick her up and carry her until we get away from the dog. She'd been in the shelter since she was maybe 2 weeks old along with her litter mates so as far as I know she never had any kind of traumatic experience with a big dog. Any advice on how to handle a dog that just shuts down when she sees big dogs?
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Mar 24, 2011 21:15
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I started using the tape trick last night on Tyler (border/Aussie mix) and while he touched his nose twice perfectly, the rest of the time he just sat there looking at me.
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Mar 24, 2011 21:19
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Okay so I finally got the dog to walk/run without pulling so much so now I have been trying to train my dog to come when called outside. He comes when called inside but if he's outside then good luck getting to him. First I realized that running him down and grabbing him was working against me. The dog associates me going to get him with grabbing him, and obviously he doesn't want to be grabbed so now he doesn't let me within arms reach. So instead I started bringing food, first chicken then ground beef, and instead of grabbing him just giving him the food and letting him go again. So now he associates me going to get him with getting food. Then I started walking him back to the house and giving him food when we got to the door so he associates coming home with getting food. I also started doing a thing where when we're outside I call him over and when he comes given him a bit of food. That has proved more successful and he now comes when called sometimes. Problem is if he's smelling something interesting, or he smells the neighbor grilling, or he's chasing a squirrel, or for whatever drat reason he wants he doesn't come when called and then I have to chase him down again. Even if I have a huge chunk of beef in my hand he completely ignores me and runs off to do whatever the hell it is he wants to do. Help.
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Mar 24, 2011 21:21
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Vino posted:Okay so I finally got the dog to walk/run without pulling so much so now I have been trying to train my dog to come when called outside. He comes when called inside but if he's outside then good luck getting to him. If you're willing to spend $30, check out Patricia McConnell's recall DVD. We bought it, and be forewarned, the production quality is poor at best. But the information is very good. We trained it hard for about a week, and we sprinkle it in throughout the week here and there for a few minutes now and then. As a result, we have a moderately reliable (I would say 70%) recall in the dog park now. My guess, solely upon what you posted above and no other information, is that you are trying to do too much too fast. Don't try to recall with high distractions yet. Start with baby steps and build from there. Use high value treats and praise with low distractions first, and gradually step it up. You should be starting inside until the recall inside is 90% or better.
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Mar 24, 2011 21:26
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Recall inside is 100%. Where is this DVD?
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Mar 24, 2011 21:58
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Come on it's the first match when you type "Patricia McConnell's recall DVD" into google.
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Mar 24, 2011 22:07
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Oh sorry. Should have googled. I can't really afford thirty dollars at the moment, I was hoping more for in the lines of advice.
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Mar 24, 2011 22:34
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MrFurious posted:If you're willing to spend $30, check out Patricia McConnell's recall DVD. Vino posted:Oh sorry. Should have googled. Did you read his post?
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Mar 24, 2011 23:02
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I tried working a bit with Cohen this morning on a "hide your face" trick and it was met with disappointment. She really found the tape on her nose uncomfortable and would fight me each time I went to put it on. I may try again later with higher value treats, but I also may just shelve this trick for a while. Ginny Field posted:Are there any tips towards using the clicker to train out biting and nipping behavior? Our cattle dog is responding wonderfully to positive reinforcement training, and picks up tricks and behaviors with only a few repetitions. I like Kiri Koli's advice. Here's a video on how to put it into practice with a clicker. I would work juuuust beneath the point where you know Ginny normally bites and reward for proper non-mouthy behaviour. PurpleJesus posted:I have an issue when I take my dogs on walks. Neither of them like big dogs. When we got Daisy (she's a beagle mix), the shelter said that when she was found she'd been tied to a mastiff with a rope and had been basically dragged around for who knows how long. We saw the mastiff and he was huge, easily up to my waist, so I can understand why she doesn't like big dogs. She freaks out when she sees them. We try to do the whole give her treats when she sees them so she starts to associate them with good things routine and it works a little, but not all the time. But at least I know what I'm supposed to do. It sounds like you're doing the right thing with Daisy. Changing behaviour is a slow process and sometimes it might feel like you're making no progress at all. With Violet, how close/far away are you from the big dogs? It sounds like you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too close. When a dog is under stress the way she is it becomes physically unable to eat. You'll want to find her threshold where she can take treats and work there or further away. Then you want to approach it just the same way you are with Daisy -- focus on creating the appearance of other dogs as a predictor for awesome incoming food. With her being as young as she is it sounds like typical puppy fear period stuff and if you manage it well my guess is that it will pass. If Daisy reacts on a regular basis then it might be better to walk the two separately. My guess is that Violet is very susceptible to her negative reactions and is being encouraged to think that big dogs means something is wrong. FearfulDogs.com is a good resource for chronically fearful dogs. I don't think this is what is happening with your young girl, but it might serve as a good resource while you struggle with her fear periods. Here's a page that goes over how to change the way dogs feel. demolition rickshaw posted:I started using the tape trick last night on Tyler (border/Aussie mix) and while he touched his nose twice perfectly, the rest of the time he just sat there looking at me. Sounds like he wasn't irritated enough by the tape. Try playing around with it a bit to encourage him to wipe it. Some dogs have a higher threshold for these sorts of things. Vino posted:Okay so I finally got the dog to walk/run without pulling so much so now I have been trying to train my dog to come when called outside. He comes when called inside but if he's outside then good luck getting to him. At the end of this post on the last page I linked a series of videos that are all concerned with improving dogs' recall, with the first video being the most helpful. I'm currently enrolled in the course it's promoting so I'm sure I'll have a few more tricks up my sleeves in a few week's time, but in the meantime... Here's the link for those of you too lazy to click on that other link First, good job on the collar grab. You're going to want to pair "I grab your collar" with awesome food or play in exactly the same way you charge a clicker. Grab, feed, grab, feed in all sorts of different environments and situations. You're starting this now it sounds like, so keep it up. The problem you're having with your second point is this: you're not reinforcing enough to your dog compared to his environment. Here are some common recall mistakes (as mentioned in the video I linked).
So take a look at that list and decide what you're guilty of and how you plan to fix it. Watch those videos and if you still have questions we'll do our best to answer them. MrFurious's advice was solid, so definitely keep it in mind. If you don't want to spend the cash on a DVD maybe a book like Control Unleashed by McDevvit will help.
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Mar 24, 2011 23:14
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Okay, I am not one of the expert trainers here. But my puppy has a "hide your face" trick, and here's how he learned it. Often when he was rolling around on his back, his paws would go over his eyes (both front paws), and when he did that, I would say, "Peekaboo!" and put my hands over my eyes. So now when he's on his back and I say "Peekaboo" and cover my eyes, he sometimes does the same thing! I didn't intend this and wasn't trying to teach it as a trick, but now I am. Oddly, now that I'm trying to teach it, he's doing it less. I tried to get a picture but it's fleeting, and since I give the cue (such as it is) with both hands, I haven't been able to grab the camera in time to capture it. I will keep trying. I'm also trying to associate it with a different cue than both hands.
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Mar 25, 2011 00:06
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Vino posted:Okay so I finally got the dog to walk/run without pulling so much so now I have been trying to train my dog to come when called outside. He comes when called inside but if he's outside then good luck getting to him. Don't chase him down. Don't ever chase him--dogs love this game and will initiate it, but when they do it, they're in charge (and they know it). This is a really bad game for them to know at times when you really have to get them. It sounds like you're on the right track with treats and letting him go again. Call him back when he's not so far away, then when he's good at that, call him when he's further away, and so forth.
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Mar 25, 2011 00:11
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a life less posted:With Violet, how close/far away are you from the big dogs? It sounds like you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too close. When a dog is under stress the way she is it becomes physically unable to eat. You'll want to find her threshold where she can take treats and work there or further away. Then you want to approach it just the same way you are with Daisy -- focus on creating the appearance of other dogs as a predictor for awesome incoming food. With her being as young as she is it sounds like typical puppy fear period stuff and if you manage it well my guess is that it will pass. Thanks for the link! It's been all kinds of distances so far, pretty much as soon as she sees them. There are so many dogs in our neighborhood that it's tough to prepare for when we'll run into one. I hadn't thought about Daisy's reactions influencing her. I guess I'll have to start walking them separately for a while and see if that helps.
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Mar 25, 2011 00:11
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a life less posted:
These two are probably the ones I'm dealing with the most. He's very independent, doesn't usually want affection, never looks to me for direction, and seems to have a mission in life to smell everything in the world. So it's a natural positive reinforcement for him to simply be out smelling things and there's little reason to come back, even if he's so hungry because I skipped his breakfast that morning. So what's the answer for this? Only do training on a leash where I can make sure he doesn't get that positive association from the environment anymore? (Currently I have him on the leash but I let him wander around without holding it before doing the recall practice.) Do I make a negative consequence when the dog chooses not to come when called? How would I do that if I'm not next to the dog?
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Mar 25, 2011 00:50
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PurpleJesus posted:Thanks for the link! It's been all kinds of distances so far, pretty much as soon as she sees them. There are so many dogs in our neighborhood that it's tough to prepare for when we'll run into one. I hadn't thought about Daisy's reactions influencing her. I guess I'll have to start walking them separately for a while and see if that helps. Keep in mind that you can influence Violet as well. Make sure you don't get overly nervous or worried when Violet has a reaction because she will pick up on it. If you have to, even be cheerful to make sure you aren't giving off negative vibes.  I won't pretend to be an expert on puppies, but I think that the fear imprinting at early ages (and sometimes older ages) can be very important and have long lasting effects. If you can, try to minimize the number of negative experiences Violet has with larger dogs until she's a little older. If you have to, take her to somewhere you don't expect anyone to be for longer walks. Walk her at times of day when you expect less people to be out with their dogs. Do this until she's a little older and see if she doesn't start to adapt. Also if you can, borrow a friend with a dog and set Violet up for some positive experiences (i.e. keeping her a distance where she is under threshold and stuffing her face with yummy treats). I say all this because it is very easy for dogs to become habitual. You want to get Violet past her fearful puppy stage (which is hopefully what this is) without developing lasting fear but also without developing habits, which can perpetuate after the fear is gone.
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Mar 25, 2011 00:54
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Kiri koli posted:My dog was a huge mouther when we first got her, she'd do it when she got excited or wanted attention, or just whenever. If turning your back isn't strong enough, I would suggest trying time outs. If your dog bites you, stick her in a bathroom until she is calm and quiet, then let her out. She goes back in if she does it again. You don't need to say anything or be mad or yank her into the bathroom or anything, so I think it's a very mild punishment and it's really helped us (plus it teaches the dog calming down quickly). a life less posted:I like Kiri Koli's advice. Here's a video on how to put it into practice with a clicker. I would work juuuust beneath the point where you know Ginny normally bites and reward for proper non-mouthy behaviour. Thanks, both of you, we'll definitely try all of this. The time outs might be challenging, as she's afraid of our bathroom, but I definitely think she'll respond to the click and treat repetition. She loves when I bring out the clicker, and I really believe that once she figures out exactly what we're asking of her she'll start to improve. I keep trying not to get too frustrated, because I think back to how out of control she was when we first brought her home and how far she's come in just a few short months. We've been working with her on not jumping, and when I got home from work today she started to jump and then froze and sat down again and just wiggled like crazy. I almost can't believe she's the same dog who reacted to being brought into my apartment and taken off the leash for the first time by launching herself through the air at my head (no small feat for a fat pet). Thanks again for the tips, and hopefully I can post some good updates on how its going in a few days.
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Mar 25, 2011 03:08
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Vino posted:These two are probably the ones I'm dealing with the most. He's very independent, doesn't usually want affection, never looks to me for direction, and seems to have a mission in life to smell everything in the world. So it's a natural positive reinforcement for him to simply be out smelling things and there's little reason to come back, even if he's so hungry because I skipped his breakfast that morning. Did you watch those videos? The first step is a) restrained recalls and b) teaching your dog what you want him to do instead. A lot of people think that once the dog knows what a cue means indoors in the living room he'll automatically understand what it means in the bathroom, or outdoors, or when chasing after another dog. You can also start building additional enthusiasm for interacting with you through incorporating games to play on recall like tugging and fetch. Every dog can be taught to increase their value in play (mine wasn't terribly interested, but she's making good progress). A dog can decide he's full, or he can do without food for a few minutes or whatever, but maybe he's more interested in playing with a flirt pole. It's helpful to have a variety of rewards handy to increase your perceived value to your dog. I really like this post for instructions on how to increase play drive in your dog. The answer is to always set your dog up for success. You want to give him choices, but you don't want to give him too many, if that makes any sense. So I think it's wise to limit his access to environmental rewards while you do the work to increase your own value, so yeah, leashing is not a bad idea. Do not offer negative consequences in the form of punishment if he doesn't come when called. That will only work against you in the long run. The kinds of consequences you can offer would be to leash up and then work on leash-only drills for a few days while he earns back the privilege of being off-leash. Always remember that you are only going to call your dog to come once and only once. If he doesn't come you need to go retrieve him. It doesn't have to be particularly punishing, but you want your dog to know that ignoring you is not an option. If he's somewhere you can't get him then maybe you should keep him on leash -- a 30-50 foot leash can be pretty handy in situations like this. Don't ever be angry if he doesn't come, because you'll essentially be poisoning your cue if he sees that coming will be punishing. I would just use the leash to get him moving in your direction a bit and then turn on the happy/fun and use motivation to get him the rest of the way. Something that will be your friend is the Premack principle, AKA you can have your ice cream after you eat your vegetables. This is how you use the environmental rewards to work in your favour. Maybe your dog sees a squirrel, but you'll only let him chase it if he sits next to you and gives you his full attention. Then, when he does that, maybe you'll give him the release command to chase away. All of a sudden him sitting and focusing on you becomes valuable because he stands the chance of being rewarded big time. Now, obviously you can't use Premack on everything, because it can be dangerous to your dog (or the squirrels that are hapless enough to cross his path). But it's a really genius way to make the environment work to your advantage. Here's a video on using Premack for dogs who fence-fight. You don't always have to release your dog to go chase a squirrel. Maybe sometimes you'll reward his focus with food and/or play. But maybe you'll let him eat his ice cream once he's eaten a few vegetables for you. Here's a decent (but not great) article on using Premack to teach a recall.
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Mar 25, 2011 15:34
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a life less posted:I really like this post for instructions on how to increase play drive in your dog. That's a really good read. I've been having trouble getting Psyche to be enthusiastic about some things lately. Like I've been trying to get her to sit in front of me and look at me, and then I move and she's supposed to follow and then sit in front of me again. She does it, but not with a ton of energy, i.e. she just saunters after me. I'd love to be able to increase her enthusiasm by using a toy instead of food. But she is one of those dogs the article mentioned that only cares about toys when she's in the mood. I gather one of the things I've been doing wrong is letting the game end when she wants it to (we use toys to wear her out right now instead of training, so it makes sense to go until she's tired), but how else can I get her to start playing? The article has a lot to say about what to do once they are playing, but how do I get her to start when I want to engage her? She won't play if there is food around, so that's out. Any other ideas? Edit: Hmmm, we have another problem. Today is the second time Psyche has thrown up everything she ate on the way back from class. The first time we feed her a bunch of ham, which was probably a mistake and this time, she just had hot dog, some cheese, and dried chicken, but we had a pretty intense class and she ate a lot. I'm still looking for the treat that she likes best, but now I'm thinking boiled chicken for next class and see how she likes that. Any suggestions on things dogs generally like and can eat fast without upsetting their stomachs? Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Mar 26, 2011 |
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Mar 25, 2011 18:33
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Kiri koli posted:That's a really good read. I've been having trouble getting Psyche to be enthusiastic about some things lately. Like I've been trying to get her to sit in front of me and look at me, and then I move and she's supposed to follow and then sit in front of me again. She does it, but not with a ton of energy, i.e. she just saunters after me. Re: teaching your dog to play it sounds like you are currently where I was a few months ago. In the last few months I've made a concerted effort to improve Cohen's play drive so she's more willing to play whenever *I* want to play. It sounds like your problem isn't necessarily teaching Psyche how to play, but building on her play drive the same way I did. I don't think I did anything that wasn't mentioned in that article. The biggies were having a "special" toy that I would hide away and only take out for special play times a few times a day (you can choose to put all other toys away during this process too). Spend a few days going nuts over the toy yourself and teasing Psyche with it but denying her the opportunity to interact with it herself. Both the article I linked, and the Susan Garrett article linked from it go over how to build this initial excitement. Always stop play before she's tired -- leave her wanting more. I also shaped a hold/pull behaviour (first trained for this) that I began working on harder in recent months. The trick was to graduate from a half-hearted mouth/light tug to a more serious and enthusiastic behaviour. The linked article talks about how only to use particularly high value treats to build this behaviour. I also tried about a million different tugs. Every dog is different -- some prefer real fur, some prefer fleece, some prefer rope... stuffies... socks... sticks... anything. Cohen LOOOOOOOOVED this fleece dressing gown of mine, so when it got too tattered I cut it up and braided a tug out of it that she looooves. I also have a rabbit fur tug in the mail that I'm hoping she'll get excited for. (She sure as gently caress liked the rabbit fur she found scattered by a hawk in the park.) She also really likes rope tugs and socks. I think they're easiest for her to grasp. Recently I've noticed an increase Cohen's hold strength. Before she would jump and bite and slash instead of grab, hold and tug. I did some shaping for the play I wanted, and I think she also improved through repetition and increased muscle strength. So anyways, I think I'm just repeating what that article said, only less articulately. I think right now you should capitalize on increasing her desire to play when she's in the mood and work on making it a crazy fun happy time. I think it'll take a few months for you to really notice a difference, but it should happen. It's only recently that I've noticed a marked improvement in my girl. I can't waaaaait until I can begin using the tug as a reward in agility -- I think I'm almost there. Regarding the food issue, did she eat any later than usual? Sometimes dogs' stomachs go into digest-mode before there's any food and it can make them sick. It varies from dog to dog, but unspiced meat that she's familiar with should be easiest on the stomach.
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Mar 26, 2011 03:27
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@a life less Thank you this gives me many good ideas to try.
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Mar 26, 2011 18:03
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Its been a while PI...but I've got a bit of an issue. Sagan. Her and Cosmo have chilled out on the playing 24/7 for the most part, and when my wife and I are visibly mellow (watching a movie or something) they generally get mellow too. But Sagan, when on a leash, is a different creature. We take her outside to potty, and if anyone or any dog walks by she's in instant 'rabid oh god I HAVE TO KILL YOU' mode. She'll choke herself on the leash, stand on her hind legs, jump and twist about. We bought a gentle leader because when we first got her she walked on the leash like she was searching for victims under the rubble or a kidnapped kid or something...she was constantly on some kind of trail pulling hard. But with the Gentle Leader on she looks even more rabid, shaking her head around, pushing her face into the ground, wild paw action...its ridiculous. Sometimes its ok, and she walks like normal, but not when she sees another dog. Thing is, at the dog park she's fine, timid even. She'll run and let dogs chase her, but she doesn't wrestle a lot. She kind of hides behind my wife's or my legs most of the time. She just goes nuts when we're walking around our block/neighborhood. I've tried getting her to focus on me, showing her a treat and making her sit for the treat, but that works about 10% of the time, the rest of the time she ignores me, or she'll look at me, sit down, then twist about to get back to the other dog. Whats stupid is she won't even do anything if she reaches the other dog, she just barks real loud and sniffs it. One guy let his dog get acquainted with Sagan, and Cosmo just chilled by us and Sagan would just bark in this poor dogs face... In the apartment complex she did the same thing (I took her leash off before I opened the apt door once, que another dog coming out) she ran up rabid and crazy, the owner thought his dog was gonna die, but Sagan just jumped around the dog barking...like she was begging it to do something (think instigating a high-school fight). Its hard to really train with any kind of schedule or regularity, because any other dogs we know that we could use to help train her she's cool with (Cosmo, parents dogs). It's only in our neighborhood, and its randomly, so I think I'm in need a better distraction technique? Any help would be awesome, people must think we have a rabid wolf, while Cosmo just stares off like an oblivious, yet very happy, goofball. edit; also to note, she'll go crazy from behind our apartment window at people/dogs passing by, so maybe we could start there and move the training to outside. RizieN fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 26, 2011 |
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Mar 26, 2011 19:41
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RizieN posted:Its been a while PI...but I've got a bit of an issue. Sounds like leash reactivity and/or territorialness.  Psyche has the same problem. For a very short period at her foster home, she was able to get along with other dogs off-leash, but on-leash she acts like a crazy dog.I don't remember Sagan's background, but it sounds like maybe she didn't learn good doggie manners at a young age? If she's bad at reading body language, that plus being confined on a leash (plus being close to home and over-protective) can lead to this kind of behavior. How close does the other dog have to be before she goes crazy? Really close, or at any distance? The fact that she barks at people passing by as well as dogs outside indicates she has an anxiety problem that is only compounded by the leash. The good news, I think, is that once she reaches the other dog, she is not violent. This will be REALLY helpful in your training. You'll want to do the usual desensitization/counter-conditioning on walks. Try to avoid any situations where she will go crazy by crossing the street or going a different direction if you see a dog. For inside, you want to replace the going crazy at windows with another behavior, like say going to a mat and laying down. Keep her away from windows whenever you can't be active about training a replacement response. In addition, I would train a special Leave It command. The way my trainer described my dog's problems to me is that she makes bad decisions, so I must teach her that I get to make the decisions (which is along the lines of the better distraction/focus you are looking for and is basically a trust building exercise). To do this, you teach a body-block Leave It command with the end goal that your dog will look to you for direction before going after something exciting/upsetting. To start training it, you can use treats or toys or anything your dog would go after. Drop the item on the floor and when your dog goes for it, block it with your body. Your whole body, your hand, your foot, whatever. When the dog backs off, you back off as well. If they go for it again, block again. When the dog has totally backed off and is watching you for permission (work up to this slowly of course), then you reward. For food, you can reward with a separate piece of food or let them have the same one (my trainer says never to let them have the food on the ground, but I'm not sure I agree). Then you move on to doing this with people, dogs, squirrels, etc. My trainer demoed it like this. She sat in our living room and Psyche didn't much care for that, so she was barking like a crazy dog from a distant hallway. So we drew an imaginary line and when Psyche tried to go toward the trainer, we blocked or even crowded her back. Once Psyche was calm or looked at us, we stepped aside so she could see the trainer. If she barked, we blocked until calm. When she was being good for a bit, we rewarded (we rewarded by taking her into the next room as a release). I use this technique a lot outside now when Psyche barks at people. It took us a while to get to that point because she will bite at us if she gets too upset, but I think this technique will be really good for Sagan because it sounds like she's not TOO upset, just making bad decisions. It seemed weird to me at first, but this training is all about your body language and getting your dog to look to you for decisions. It's not even really necessary to add in a cue because Sagan should eventually auto-look at you and know from your stance that you are demanding her attention until released. Sorry for the book, I hope that helps somewhat. We've tried tons of other things as well, but that's just what I thought of for your case.
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Mar 26, 2011 20:16
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No it definitely helps. As for Sagan's background, the rescue told us her litter was 'born in the wild', I guess they found her and her siblings in the woods somewhere. Her siblings are apparently waaaaay worse according to the foster mom. We got her at 6 months old, she could already sit and was basically potty trained. We've had her for just over a month now. Cosmo caught onto the Leave It thing real fast, and Sagan's an even faster learner when it comes to tricks and things (indoors anyway). The problem is she can see a dog from a mile away, or a squirrel, or a scent...she has super powers, at least compared to Cosmo, so its hard to avoid the situation, because she'll notice it at the same time or before I do. I'm gonna have to work on my body language and do more body blocking, and I think I'm going to need some really, really loving amazing treats to distract with...like some smelly nasty rear end liver or something, I just...don't want it in my pocket
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Mar 26, 2011 22:06
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I've got a little question (it's not huge though): pretty much every time I get out of my chair, if Lola (six month old Jack Russell Terrier pup) is on the chair with me, on the other couch or on the floor asleep, she will jolt awake and watch me intensely. If I dare go to the door that leads upstairs, she runs upstairs past me to join me in the bathroom (she guards the stairs for me). If I go to the kitchen to wash up she'll either come and sit in the doorway, or she'll move to the couch so she can watch me over the threshold. Now I really don't mind her following me (especially since I'm often alone until 10pm or so), but I just feel bad if I have to go to the toilet and she bolts awake. She doesn't have SA or anything (she can be left alone while we're out without crying, though she's not crated - she's in a dogproof room until we can successfuly reintroduce the crate, as last time we rushed it and she despised it). So basically is there any way I can convince her to stay asleep while I move around? I feel like a heel sometimes, is all.
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Mar 26, 2011 22:47
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Josie, my two year old corgi, loves to fetch, and is quite excellent at finding balls in the yard and bringing them to me to initiate a game. I'll usually tell her to "Get your ball" if I want her to go find a ball for me to throw. So this morning, I was wondering if she'd differentiate this to find and retrieve other objects. I pretty regularly give her treat toys to play with on weekend mornings to occupy her attention so I can be lazy for a while. So I picked up her "treat ball" which is this, which of course got her excited. Then instead of bringing it to the kitchen to put treats in it, I walked to the other side of the house and put it down. Then I went back to the kitchen, where she followed me (all the while looking like "um you forgot something"), and then I told her "Get your treat ball". She wasn't even confused, she was like "oh ok", and went right over and picked it up and brought it to me, and I filled it with treats, of course. So this seems like something promising that she enjoys. and I'm wondering next steps to encourage it further. Should I try to train her to find and fetch my shoes? Maybe other objects?
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Mar 27, 2011 16:40
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anachrodragon posted:Josie, my two year old corgi, loves to fetch, and is quite excellent at finding balls in the yard and bringing them to me to initiate a game. I'll usually tell her to "Get your ball" if I want her to go find a ball for me to throw. I once saw a presentation by a guy who studies dogs and their cognitive abilities (can't remember his name of course) and their studies showed that not only can dogs learn the names of and differentiate between a large number of different objects, they can use the process of elimination to determine the names of new objects, i.e. they placed a number of objects a dog was already familiar with and one object that was new and told the dog 'Get the squid!' and since all the other objects were not squids, the dog grabbed the new object. He also said that you can even teach your dog the name of an object by staging fake conversations where you and a friend say short sentences about the object while holding it. Like you hold a ball and say 'This sure is a ball.' and your friend says 'What a nice ball' etc. So yeah, go nuts. Teach her the names of lots of things and you can even teach her to put her toys away. Here's a video on it (sorry the guy has a weird distortion thing going on while he talks, but his videos are pretty good otherwise): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1ZajuATmeA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
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Mar 27, 2011 17:02
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RizieN posted:Its been a while PI...but I've got a bit of an issue. Unfortunately it sounds like Sagan won't be as easy as Cosmo. It sucks that you'll have to be putting more work into her, but it definitely makes you appreciate the differences in personality in the dog world. First, a lot of the chasing/barking/desire to control movement is textbook herder habits. Read the article I posted here in the herder thread. It might help you understand some of her personality quirks. Historically, herding dogs aren't exactly socialites, and depending on their breeding can be high strung and nervous. The nervousness shows up as reactivity where she's doing everything in her power to convince other people and dogs to stay away from her. What sort of distractions does she like? You don't actually need to have her sit and listen to you before you feed her. So if you have a handful of chicken that you can pop into her mouth a bit at a time it will still work to countercondition her. However you want to make sure you stay far enough away from her triggers because you don't want to give her the opportunity to react. It's just that sometimes, like poo poo, reactions happen. I think food as a distraction is probably your best bet. I was going to suggest play if she prefers it, but it'll probably escalate her arousal too far. Impulse control aka Its Yer Choice is at the core of just about anything you'll ever teach your dog, and it's especially important for dogs who are easily aroused. There's lots of stuff around the interweb about it. Email me at [redacted] and I'll send you a bit more information on it. Fraction posted:I've got a little question (it's not huge though): pretty much every time I get out of my chair, if Lola (six month old Jack Russell Terrier pup) is on the chair with me, on the other couch or on the floor asleep, she will jolt awake and watch me intensely. You can work on crate games if you're serious about wanting your dog to stay put, and exercise the restraint to jump up and follow you if you'd like. It's a pretty common behaviour for a lot of the high drive dogs -- mine is the same way. Eventually I just stopped caring if my shifting in the chair woke her. If I'm serious about her staying put I bring out the crate since I've done exercises to teach her that she does not exit a crate until I say okay, even if the door is open. anachrodragon posted:So this seems like something promising that she enjoys. and I'm wondering next steps to encourage it further. Should I try to train her to find and fetch my shoes? Maybe other objects? Patricia McConnell is currently teaching her Border Collie the names for various toys, and is having some success with it. See the entries here: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/could-you-learn-1022-new-nouns http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/willie-speaks-only-living-things-have-names http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/the-model-rival-method I think some dogs are good at understanding inanimate object's names, and some there has to be a concerted effort to teach them. I think through repetition with one object a great deal, and then introduction of other objects for object discrimination. But you don't want to introduce other objects too fast or else you may only end up confusing your pup. a life less fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 02:06
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