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Revenant Threshold posted:I'd tend to agree. They're something which do not sound in theory as good as they are in practice. Having been introduced to the Battletech universe through the videogames and only later managed to track down some books and found other info online, it took me a while to realize that they were indeed dangerous. No videogame ever reproduced how lethal they can be against anything that is not engaging them from a few kilometers away or can fly at high speed and at least medium altitude. Also it is more fun to keep calling them REDACTED than saying what they are: helps building suspension and can be annoying at the same time! Why should we stop now? 
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Mar 28, 2011 00:08
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mercenarynuker posted:I recommend you finding a nest/hive/production plant/summoning circle of whatever the hell these demon REDACTED are This is, again, a pretty good description, except for the summoning circle bit. Although, for Clan Nova Cat, there are summoning circles and campfires involved too.
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Mar 28, 2011 00:22
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If you're used to seeing the REDACTED in the video games rather than the tabletop game, it might help to think of the tabletop version more like Terror Drones, from the Command and Conquer games than what you're used to seeing.
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Mar 28, 2011 00:27
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There aren't any in this mission. You have to know fear before you can learn what terror is.
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Mar 28, 2011 00:34
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Despite the fact I support our brave and unwashed Goonlance pilots on principle, that made me cackle out loud. Now I can't wait to see them in action.
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Mar 28, 2011 00:42
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Mukaikubo posted:Bargained well and done, then. I look forward to the duel and to any hints of test runs for Megamek updates. I'll be on most of the day tomorrow myself and hanging around in IRC. What was the channel for that again? I really should link it in one of the main posts.
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Mar 28, 2011 01:08
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PoptartsNinja posted:What was the channel for that again? I really should link it in one of the main posts. The home base is on irc.synirc.net, channel #megamek
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Mar 28, 2011 01:12
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W.T. Fits posted:People keep going on and on and on about the bloody REDACTED. I'm not scared of a blacked-out word. Give me a name that I can look up, or just get around to showing them off already. I realize they haven't been mentioned by name before now to build up suspense for when they're finally revealed, but at this point, people going REDACTED over and over again is having the opposite effect, at least for me. If you don't yet know what they are, then please, I'm begging you: don't spoiler yourself. Some of us would really love to see your reaction to seeing them the first time. It'll be worth the wait. In fact, looking over the roster... I'm wondering what the chances are of them making their debut appearance when it's your turn in the driving seat?
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Mar 28, 2011 01:25
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Trast posted:Define "truly unfair poo poo." Ignoring the REDACTED? We got a small taste in the form of Clan Large Pulses - the damage of a PPC, more range, lighter, smaller and with a -2 hit bonus. Some designs mount as many as four such guns. Weapons that can take off a mech's head at ranges greater than an LRM. Some designs mount as many as four such guns, too. And they're energy-based, so you can fire them forever. LRMs with no minimum ranges. Single guns that can do 40 points of damage a turn. Targeting computers that not only provide a to-hit bonus but allow them to target-fire and peel the limbs or head off a mech that's still active. The ability to literally not care about heat ever for some designs while doing more damage than many IS heavies and assaults. Mechs that can run 20 hexes in a turn - the same one being capable of dealing 30+ damage a turn at 15 hexes. Mechs that can deal 100 damage per turn, mechs that can fire at you from 30 hexes out, assault mechs that move like a Griffin... If the Clans wanted to in this scenario, they could probably wipe out the defenders by turn 10. 5, if they didn't feel like sticking to honor rules.
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Mar 28, 2011 01:42
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Tempest_56 posted:Ignoring the REDACTED? Fortunately for our players, the 40 damage gun doesn't exist for the Clans until the late 3060s (in canon). As for the 20 hexes at running speed mech, you're talking about a Firemoth variant aren't you? A Firemoth in the Prime Config. can't deal 30+ damage at 15 hexes. Also, weapons that fire and hit at 30 hexes? If one uses extreme ranges rules (the wiki is vague about how to implement them though. What are the modifiers?) a few weapons can target out to 40+ hexes. Edit: Found it. It's the D Configuration of the Firemoth.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:10
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Tempest_56 posted:Ignoring the REDACTED? Eh, considering the relatively strategic gameplay we saw in the first battles, these weapons don't sound so much terrifying as pointlessly unbalancing. I can't conceive of an interesting game taking place if all of the strategic limitations that made the previous battles exciting get swaped for "super fast, extreme damage, no heat or ammo". Maybe the clan honour rules are meant to ameliorate this but it ends up sounding more like a deadly version of Simon Says, not a proper wargame.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:13
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landcollector posted:Fortunately for our players, the 40 damage gun doesn't exist for the Clans until the late 3060s (in canon). No -- several TR:3050 'Mechs are equipped with the (do I need to spoil this??) UAC/20. Dolash posted:Eh, considering the relatively strategic gameplay we saw in the first battles, these weapons don't sound so much terrifying as pointlessly unbalancing. I can't conceive of an interesting game taking place if all of the strategic limitations that made the previous battles exciting get swaped for "super fast, extreme damage, no heat or ammo". Well, in most published scenario packs the Inner Sphere forces are given advantages to compensate. Typically, this means greater numbers plus the restrictions of the Clan honour system. There have been various forms of balancing employed over the years for custom scenarios. One rough rule of thumb is to count 3025-vintage Inner Sphere 'Mechs as worth "points" equal to 0.5 times their tonnage; upgraded-technology Inner Sphere 'Mechs worth 0.7 times their tonnage; and Clan 'Mechs worth 1.0 times their tonnage. Thus as a crude rule of thumb you'd want 200 tons of 3025-era 'Mechs, or 140-ish tons of upgraded Inner Sphere 'Mechs (like the Lancelot from last round) to rival 100 tons of Clan 'Mechs. Carbolic fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 02:15
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landcollector posted:Fortunately for our players, the 40 damage gun doesn't exist for the Clans until the late 3060s (in canon). As for the 20 hexes at running speed mech, you're talking about a Firemoth variant aren't you? A Firemoth in the Prime Config. can't deal 30+ damage at 15 hexes. Also, weapons that fire and hit at 30 hexes? If one uses extreme ranges rules (the wiki is vague about how to implement them though. What are the modifiers?) a few weapons can target out to 40+ hexes. Extreme range is just another bracket past long range; it's another +2 and it goes further. Things start getting ridiculous if you use extreme range with some of the long range experimental weapons.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:16
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landcollector posted:Fortunately for our players, the 40 damage gun doesn't exist for the Clans until the late 3060s (in canon). UAC20 comes standard on the Executioner B, which was in TR:3050. So they can face it any time. But yes, later on the Clans create even MORE guns that can do 40 damage per button press. quote:As for the 20 hexes at running speed mech, you're talking about a Firemoth variant aren't you? A Firemoth in the Prime Config. can't deal 30+ damage at 15 hexes. Firemoth D. Five ER Mediums and a TC while moving 10/15(20). quote:Also, weapons that fire and hit at 30 hexes? If one uses extreme ranges rules (the wiki is vague about how to implement them though. What are the modifiers?) a few weapons can target out to 40+ hexes. Clan LB 2-X AC. Range brackets are 10/20/30, 4 min.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:20
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Carbolic posted:No -- several TR:3050 'Mechs are equipped with the (do I need to spoil this??) UAC/20. To be fair, UACs roll on the missile table so a lot of the time that second shot misses no matter how good your gunner.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:20
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Carbolic posted:No -- several TR:3050 'Mechs are equipped with the (do I need to spoil this??) UAC/20.  I keep forgetting that Ultra series autocannons fire two projectiles every time the trigger is pulled.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:22
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Dolash posted:Eh, considering the relatively strategic gameplay we saw in the first battles, these weapons don't sound so much terrifying as pointlessly unbalancing. I can't conceive of an interesting game taking place if all of the strategic limitations that made the previous battles exciting get swaped for "super fast, extreme damage, no heat or ammo". Congratulations, you are now a Battletech player in 1990 when the Clans first appeared. In theory, the Clan's honor rules and their low numbers were meant to hinder their massive technological and skill advantage. The problem is that many players ignored zell and fielded 1-for-1 numbers in mechs which gave them ridiculous advantages. This is what led to the development of the Battle Value system for balancing the relative power of units against each other to create a fair game - with it in place, while you can't hold the Clan players to zell? You're damned well gonna be fielding a lot more guns than they are. A solid Clan heavy with an average Clan pilot is going to clock in at around 2500 BV - you can field two Warhammers and a Panther for the same amount. And later on the IS develops weapons and equipment that level the playing field. Right now we're just looking at the most extreme disparity - as said, it really is like a modern military fighting one from WWII.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:29
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Tempest_56 posted:In theory, the Clan's honor rules and their low numbers were meant to hinder their massive technological and skill advantage. The problem is that many players ignored zell and fielded 1-for-1 numbers in mechs which gave them ridiculous advantages. Honestly, what is it about Battletech that attracts the worst kind of munckins and powergamers. I got sick of playing Battletech because I couldn't stand the people who play it, and this is a great example.
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Mar 28, 2011 02:40
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In the big picture, of course, the whole invasion is more like the modern Netherlands or Belgium trying to invade 1939s Germany. Sure, they have a lot better toys, but they're outnumbered to hell and back (any one of the three FedSun Marches alone has a higher population than all the Clans combined just for example), have nowhere near the logistics or numbers to ever occupy the place and in the long run, they're doomed to getting slowly ground into dust, especially as the IS learns to cope better and starts upgrading their gear in turn. They're basically coming in believing that if they reach Terra and lay claim to it, all the Houses will simply roll over and submit without any further fight. Yeah. Good luck with that, chumps. :iamafag:
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Mar 28, 2011 02:53
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Magni posted:In the big picture, of course, the whole invasion is more like the modern Netherlands or Belgium trying to invade 1939s Germany. Sure, they have a lot better toys, but they're outnumbered to hell and back (any one of the three FedSun Marches alone has a higher population than all the Clans combined just for example), have nowhere near the logistics or numbers to ever occupy the place and in the long run, they're doomed to getting slowly ground into dust, especially as the IS learns to cope better and starts upgrading their gear in turn. As much as we may dislike him, I think Victor makes a good point in one of the books when he's talking to the IlKhan on Strana Mechty. "What did you think you would do? Take Terra and send us all eviction notices?" In a way the clans almost run on Star Wars logic. Blow up the Death Star and it's all over.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:03
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I hope we get a contest where we get to name one of PTN's custom mechs. If I win I am going to name it the "Redacted" just for the amount of times that word has been used in this thread.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:07
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Angry_Ed posted:As much as we may dislike him, I think Victor makes a good point in one of the books when he's talking to the IlKhan on Strana Mechty. What was the point of taking Terra anyway? Aside from being the symbolic seat of the Star League and the hub of the HPG network, is there any larger strategic aim here?
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Mar 28, 2011 03:07
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Boogle posted:What was the point of taking Terra anyway? Aside from being the symbolic seat of the Star League and the hub of the HPG network, is there any larger strategic aim here? The Clans pretty much looked at it as the Capitol of all humanity (a la "Holy Terra" in 40k), and I guess they also figured it probably still had a shitload of manufacturing infrastructure left. But mostly, no, they looked at it as a very large game of capture the flag.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:10
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And I'm not sure this was mentioned: Not only are their 'Mechs better... so are their pilots. 3/4 vs. 4/5 'Mechwarriors are a massive advantage. So, let's recap: 1. You're outnumbered 5:2; 2. The enemy 'Mechs are superior to yours in every way; and 3. The enemy pilots are better than yours. So yeah, if we see twenty turns, I'd be very impressed! I knew that Clan 'Mechs were better, but it's been years since I played P&P - I had forgotten just *how* much better they were than Level 1 IS technology. Double heat sinks are just the beginning. Extra-light engines, ferro fibrous armour, and endo-steel internals combine with double heat sinks to make an average Clan Mech almost unbelievably superior to an early IS design*. Add on the fact that the weapons manage to shoot farther and hit harder while simultaneously being smaller, lighter and more efficient, and you get something that is just plain unfair. *Until you head up into the higher weight categories where criticals actually become an issue, these basically count as free tons and free heat. E: When I was first introduced to CBT, we almost exclusively drove Level 2 Clan Mechs. There was a period where medium-weight pulse laser boats equipped with targeting computers were very, very scary. Trying Level 1 stuff out was certainly an adjustment! David Corbett fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 03:10
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Boogle posted:What was the point of taking Terra anyway? Aside from being the symbolic seat of the Star League and the hub of the HPG network, is there any larger strategic aim here? It is a status thing mostly. When the clans left, whoever ruled Terra, ruled the SLDF. So they think that when they take it back, they'll be in charge. It is the same sort of logic that motivates people to try and capture capitols instead of useful objectives. Unfortunately for the clans, none of the major powers actually care about who holds Terra anymore, except ComStar. Earth is actually a really, really valuable world because of all the factories, but the clans don't know that so... It would also probably knock ComStar out as a viable military, but again, the Clans don't know about the LosTech stockpiles there.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:15
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Let it be known that I actually beat PTN in our noble Trial of Possession. Let it also be known that, because in the process Khan Djerassi and ilKhan Seidman actually killed each other in the climactic round with a mutual exchange of fatal fire, we have to redo it because having the Khans die would ruin things down the road (returning to Strana Mechty and all that stuff)
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Mar 28, 2011 03:30
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Tempest_56 posted:Congratulations, you are now a Battletech player in 1990 when the Clans first appeared. You're dissing WWII militaries pretty hard there - assuming the C-bill costs in the wiki are correct (I have no idea, so that is a big assumption). Then if the Clans are as heavily industrialised as the USA, and the IS is as industrialised as a pacific island (hahaha), the IS should still be able to field approximately 15 Atlases per Nova the clan can field. If it was WWII, total war was the order of the day, so they would - (To give the numbers some context, the baked in assumption here is that a single Clan production line can crank out almost 3 Novas in the time it takes an IS production line to build one Atlas.) Which would actually be pretty tricky to fight against I imagine. I'd bet on the Atlases in this scenario if the IS forces were 50+ atlases vs 10 clan mechs. The major difference here is that a T-34 cannot ever touch an M1A2, but a Highlander or whatever can actually damage a Nova in a meaningful way. I take your point though. I feel like an idiot for working the above numbers out. It is all very bizarre. quote:In the big picture, of course, the whole invasion is more like the modern Netherlands or Belgium trying to invade 1939s Germany. Sure, they have a lot better toys, but they're outnumbered to hell and back (any one of the three FedSun Marches alone has a higher population than all the Clans combined just for example), have nowhere near the logistics or numbers to ever occupy the place and in the long run, they're doomed to getting slowly ground into dust, especially as the IS learns to cope better and starts upgrading their gear in turn. Yeah, this is what it is really. Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 03:30
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The other thing is that when the Clans request replacement troops or equipment, it takes like 15 months to arrive.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:42
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Boogle posted:What was the point of taking Terra anyway? Aside from being the symbolic seat of the Star League and the hub of the HPG network, is there any larger strategic aim here? In perspective: The Succession Wars were fought over one thing - who had the right to take the throne as head of the Star League. At it's core, that was the conflict: Who had the right to sit on the throne of Terra and declare themselves In Charge. Kerensky and the Clans left just as this was kicking off, and they assumed the entire time that this was how to reach victory. If they could take Terra and declare themselves In Charge where all the Successor Lords had failed, the Clans took for granted that it would mean they were In Charge. And that all the people of the Inner Sphere would defer to them as the new Star League and the Successor Lords would have no choice but to bow down or be destroyed by their own people. They really did believe that whoever took Terra would automatically be In Charge and that everyone would bow down. Like 90% of their society's aims was based on that assumption. So yes, the Clans are really, really stupid.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:44
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I have located a copy of Far Country!  If you do have a FC-based challenge, I'll jump on it.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:45
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ZeeToo posted:"Boy, that sure is a dumb-looking element of the cover." Tee hee hee.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:47
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landcollector posted:Edit: Found it. It's the D Configuration of the Firemoth. A Mech so good it was banned in the CCG. Its Battle Value is greater than that of a 3025 Atlas.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:55
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Defiance Industries posted:The other thing is that when the Clans request replacement troops or equipment, it takes like 15 months to arrive. Well the good thing about omnimechs is that replacements are a lot easier to do. When a bunch of IS omnis were sent in 3055 to kick Smoke Jaguar's face, a lot of them were field refit with Clan tech as parts got shot off and they captured Clan weapons. I'm not quite sure if the opposite can be done (refitting Clan frontline Omnis with ISL1 tech in omnipods as bits get shot off) though, and you do lose a bunch of advantages from doing so. Although a hilarious cripple fight with ISL1-repaired Omnis versus ISL1 classics would be a great thing to watch. Also, guys, on that note, don't lose heart. This is the hardest part of the Clan-IS conflict. L2 tech tends to even the fight out a fair amount... if used judiciously. (Oh man PTN you have to throw people into the 3050 'downgrades' at least once). MJ12 fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 03:55
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landcollector posted:I keep forgetting that Ultra series autocannons fire two projectiles every time the trigger is pulled. The autocannon rules are abstracted to the point of ridiculousness, so it's not really that they fire two projectiles every time you pull the trigger, the rate of fire is just higher. Cannons in BattleTech make no sense at all. Don't think about it, ever, even a little, because you'll find yourself questioning basic things like "Why do larger guns always have shorter ranges when in real life the opposite is usually true?" I suspect the answer is that if you could mount an AC/20 on everything and give it a range of 2200 meters, everyone would mount that weapon. Mechs would turn into (more realistic) walking MBTs with less cool hardware and more (realistic) weapons optimized for massive alpha strikes at range. It's a balance and style issue, and frankly most wargames in general have trouble with depicting range because of the nature of tabletop gaming.
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Mar 28, 2011 04:02
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My dumbass recommendation for this turn: Alright, we can't focus fire on the clanners without getting them all involved. One of them, however, has been helpful enough to jump on top of a level 4 building. Nothing in the Clan honor code about focusing fire on a building, right? I think a 4-level fall would do that boy some good.
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Mar 28, 2011 04:10
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One possible explanation for why larger ballistic weapons in BattleTech have a shorter range is that while you're increasing the size of the projectile (and the charge), you're not really increasing the size of the barrel relative to the projectile. So an AC2 round travels further compared to it's size which gives it a longer accurate range than an AC20. An AC20 is would presumably be something like firing a short-barreled pistol or a sawn of shotgun. More firepower but less accurate range. That or all the additional recoil of all the extra shells going off in rapid succession throws off the aim so the combat effective range is lower. That's close enough to hand-wave it, right?
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Mar 28, 2011 04:13
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The Merry Marauder posted:A Mech so good it was banned in the CCG. Its Battle Value is greater than that of a 3025 Atlas. "Aleksandr Kerensky's description for an Altas posted:"a 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally." Atlas's Battle Value(2.0):1,897 Firemoth-D's Battle Value(2.0): 1,916 The Atlas's SRM-6 launcher weighs more than the amount of armor on the Firemoth-D. So Atlas, how does it feel to discover that your combat ability is considered slightly below that of a 20 ton scout mech? Atlas:  I know that all the Atlas has to do is sneeze at it and it will likely die, but that must be disheartening. landcollector fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 04:13
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The atlas can probably get some Thunder LRMs by the time 3050 rolled around, at least.
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Mar 28, 2011 04:18
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Preechr posted:My dumbass recommendation for this turn: You know, I'm not actually sure how this would be interpreted under zell. It's obviously an offensive action, but it's not actually attacking the mech...
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Mar 28, 2011 04:36
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landcollector posted:I know that all the Atlas has to do is sneeze at it and it will likely die, but that must be disheartening. You'd think so, but consider this. Clan ERMLAS, as discussed, have max range 15. That's long range for the LRM 20, the only thing on a 3025 Atlas with range past 9. If you're the Dasher, you always move 10 hexes, and you keep the range as close to 15 as possible. Assuming an IS Regular Mechwarrior, if he moves, he won't be able to hit you. (4 Gunnery + 4 Target movement + 4 Long Range) Assuming a Clan Regular Mechwarrior, you need around 8s. If you are a colossal dick, close the range to 10, and you need 10s or so to blow a leg off with the TC. Of course, this only applies directly to a duel-like situation, but in a general engagement, the Atlas (or whatever) is going to be sorely tempted to shoot at something bigger and much easier to hit, and you'll be pinging him for up to 35 damage a turn. Defiance has neatly solved this issue with a minefield, which is a good plan.
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Mar 28, 2011 04:36
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