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I have a few questions about God in the WOD. So God cursed Cain and created Vampires, but what influence does God have on the world now? Does he hate Vampires? Does he do anything to get rid of them?
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Mar 27, 2011 03:48
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PoPcornTG posted:I have a few questions about God in the WOD. I think i saw something somewhere that hes moved on or some such.
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Mar 27, 2011 04:06
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Vicissitude posted:Smiling Jack is THE Anarch of the whole Anarch movement. Sadly, not much is known about him (or even her). It's even theorized that it's not one person, or even that when "Jack" dies, another Anarch takes up the title. Smiling Jack is actually Jack Shandy. I'm going to pretend it's true while I play this game, at least.
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Mar 27, 2011 04:18
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PoPcornTG posted:I have a few questions about God in the WOD. As is usual in Christian-based mythologies in horror, while hell's pretty cheerfully present, Heaven is less so.
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Mar 27, 2011 04:29
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PoPcornTG posted:I have a few questions about God in the WOD. God has turned his back on the world and left it to destroy itself, although whether he's given up on it for good or not is open for interpretation. The Hunters, the actual supernatural Hunters, are humans Imbued by the last remaining angels on Earth which are attempting to clean up the world by using humans to destroy (other) supernatural things so that god will take an interest in it again. At least that's what the White Wolf wikipedia says.
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Mar 27, 2011 04:57
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Lassitude posted:God has turned his back on the world and left it to destroy itself, although whether he's given up on it for good or not is open for interpretation. The Hunters, the actual supernatural Hunters, are humans Imbued by the last remaining angels on Earth which are attempting to clean up the world by using humans to destroy (other) supernatural things so that god will take an interest in it again. Or possibly in hopes that if the Imbued can clean things up, God won't decide the whole thing's beyond redemption and wipe it out to start over again.
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Mar 27, 2011 04:59
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PoPcornTG posted:I have a few questions about God in the WOD. Depends on which of the WOD games you're reading. In Vampire, God doesn't get directly involved with things after the Biblical flood, although witch-hunters with True Faith in the divine are numbered among the vampires' mortal enemies (pardon the pun). In Demon, God has basically turned his back on the world after sealing the Fallen up in their Abyssal prison. In Werewolf: The Apocalypse, God is Gaia, the spirit of the Earth itself, and is under constant siege from the Wyrm, the incarnate principle of entropy and corruption. And in Mage, the One (i.e. God) didn't create the universe so much as fragment itself and form the universe from its constituent parts, with mages' power coming from an especially potent shard of the One within themselves.
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Mar 27, 2011 05:04
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There's a few different theories on where God is in the grand scheme of things, mostly from Demon. The other series have a different cosmology (Werewolf, Mage) or God is just no longer as potent in this age of cynicism (Vampire). In Demon, God smote the Earth at the beginning of the angelic war, introducing what we call entropy into reality. Some say he hosed off after that, washing his hands clean of the whole mess. Could be that was his last act at all and the effort ruined him and he is gone for good. Or just chalk it up to 'mysterious ways.'
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Mar 27, 2011 05:58
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I think I heard from a friend somewhere that there's also another theory out there that God is the Wyrd - basically the force of main order that I think changelings draw some power from, and that he's basically driven the Wyrm insane due to "netting" around it. I may be misremembering this, of course, and may have gotten a few names mixed up.
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Mar 27, 2011 06:30
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everyone posted:Malkavians That was quite interesting, thanks guys. Vampires are kind of weird.
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Mar 27, 2011 06:42
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Yeah, you did. Even so, it doesn't seem accurate. God wouldn't be the Weaver, since it's all just static order. The Wyld is just random energy, so that doesn't really fit either. And the Wyrm is, of course, the Wyrm.
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Mar 27, 2011 06:42
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Tripartite god, maybe?
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Mar 27, 2011 06:52
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I reinstalled this game because of all the mod talk. I never really noticed just how expressive the characters are, down to little things like Jack cocking his eyebrow. All the changes are keeping things a little random at least.
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Mar 27, 2011 06:54
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Spuzzz posted:I reinstalled this game because of all the mod talk. I never really noticed just how expressive the characters are, down to little things like Jack cocking his eyebrow. All the changes are keeping things a little random at least. The acting in this game is one of my favorite things about it.
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Mar 27, 2011 08:07
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Zereth posted:Tripartite god, maybe? Also consider the mythology of any of the changing breeds in the sea has distinct but similar deities that are actually separate entities with differing goals. The problem with oWoD was all of the creation myths that all sounded similar but never worked well together.
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Mar 27, 2011 08:11
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On an aside, if anyone has a hankering for anything Vampire: The Masquerade related, we've got this... http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3400114 Look, but don't touch. Feel free to read along, though!
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Mar 27, 2011 08:21
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Vicissitude posted:Yeah, you did. Even so, it doesn't seem accurate. God wouldn't be the Weaver, since it's all just static order. The Wyld is just random energy, so that doesn't really fit either. And the Wyrm is, of course, the Wyrm. IIRC, the Wyrd from Changeling and the Wyld from Werewolf aren't the same thing.
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Mar 27, 2011 20:36
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Oberleutnant posted:There are multiple different scenarios that range from a vampire-killing mist envoloping the earth and driving the few survivors towards a particular church where they could find salvation, to all out war as the masquerade falls apart, to the antediluvians rising up and eating everybody. That's the Gehenna Sourcebook. The Gehenna: The Final Nights novel is the cannon ending (yes, the Revised Novels are cannon, read the reprinted Clan Novel Saga's foreword). It's something of a combination between two of the Sourcebook's scenerios. The novel also has a couple of references to Bloodlines' storyline, as it takes place a short while after it. Vicissitude posted:There's a few different theories on where God is in the grand scheme of things, mostly from Demon. The other series have a different cosmology (Werewolf, Mage) or God is just no longer as potent in this age of cynicism (Vampire). In Demon, God smote the Earth at the beginning of the angelic war, introducing what we call entropy into reality. Some say he hosed off after that, washing his hands clean of the whole mess. Could be that was his last act at all and the effort ruined him and he is gone for good. Or just chalk it up to 'mysterious ways.' Revelations of the Dark Mother lays things out fairly clearly... though how much of that can be taken as 'fact' is questionable. Offkorn fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Mar 27, 2011 |
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Mar 27, 2011 22:11
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If we are asking lore questions what's the story with Lillth? She is mentioned occasionally in game as Caine's wife who taught him magic before he dumped her, Is there any more to her than that?
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Mar 28, 2011 00:29
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Offkorn posted:(yes, the Revised Novels are cannon, read the reprinted Clan Novel Saga's foreword) The clan novels are canon, but only to the extent that the events and characters in them are vaguely referenced in the sourcebooks. For example, the conflict in New York as laid out in New York By Night contradicts the specifics of the clan novels in a few places, but the general gist of what happened matches up. The novels are all "this is the story of future of the World of Darkness", but the sourcebooks, when they reference the novels at all, are pretty explicit that the novels are meant to be used as inspiration first and canon second.
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Mar 28, 2011 00:51
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Ferrosol posted:If we are asking lore questions what's the story with Lillth? She is mentioned occasionally in game as Caine's wife who taught him magic before he dumped her, Is there any more to her than that? That's it in a nutshell. There are cults that worship Lilith, but the most we're ever given on what they believe happened to Lilith is laid out in Revelations of the Dark Mother (the Lilin counterpart to the Cainites' Book of Nod). Even there, though, she's still as much of a mystery as Caine, albeit with a somewhat more specific motivation: revenge against Caine and his descendants for betraying her. One of the possible scenarios in the Gehenna sourcebook has Lilith coming back with her coterie of secret apostate Antediluvians, but that scenario is goofy as all hell. Plus, it doesn't quite match up with the 'canonical' version of Gehenna as seen in the novel Gehenna: The Final Night.
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Mar 28, 2011 00:57
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gtrmp posted:but the sourcebooks, when they reference the novels at all, are pretty explicit that the novels are meant to be used as inspiration first and canon second. This is true of basically everything "story" related in the old World of Darkness, though. It was all optional.
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Mar 28, 2011 01:03
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How did the "canonical" Gehenna go?
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Mar 28, 2011 01:10
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With the approach of the Red Star, Cainites get weaker and weaker and... die off. A few Antediluvians are running around doing their thing, but largely, they die off first. Haqim is assassinating those of his clan who go against his will (though he spares Fatima for the strength of her conviction to be faithful to both him and Allah), [Tzimisce] never shows up, but its old body eventually dies off and stops snatching bums from the tunnels under New York, etc. Someone who he believes to be Caine appears to the Gangrel scholar Beckett and gives him one last truth to see out and the strength to do it, since he's almost too weak to move at that point. All in all, vampires just wither and die. Very depressing.
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Mar 28, 2011 01:40
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In the Gehenna scenarios do the end-game scenarios for the other parts of the WoD fiction play out concurrently? Does the werewolf Apocalypse happen as well as the mage Ascension?
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Mar 28, 2011 01:52
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Wasn't there a Gehenna scenario involving the [Tzimisce]-mass under New York rising up in a horrible tide of mutant flesh? That one seemed to have potential, for some really weird vampire post-apocalyptica. Also, I'm mildly curious about the Giovanni. How far back do they go, and what were they like before they were a bizzaro mob family?
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Mar 28, 2011 02:18
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Cathair posted:Also, I'm mildly curious about the Giovanni. How far back do they go, and what were they like before they were a bizzaro mob family? communism bitch fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 03:04
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Ferrosol posted:If we are asking lore questions what's the story with Lillth? She is mentioned occasionally in game as Caine's wife who taught him magic before he dumped her, Is there any more to her than that? White wolf went with the original creation myth before the church changed it: that first God made Adam from the earth, then made Lilith to serve him. Lilith refused to be subservient, so she was cast out of Eden, and God made Eve from Adam's rib so that she would be his lesser and bound to him. Lilith, cast from Eden, went out into the world and lay down with demons (Caine and worse); bearing monsters (vampires and worse) forth into the world. e:also, as it's originally written, the Archangel Samael was responsible for seducing and impregnating Eve with Caine, and Lilith's refusal to submit occured after she herself mated with Samael; meaning she boned Caine and his Dad NeurosisHead fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Mar 28, 2011 |
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Mar 28, 2011 03:09
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Oberleutnant posted:Memory is a bit fuzzy here, but there used to be an old Vampire clam valled the Cappadocians who were necromancers (if you every played V:TM Redemption they lived in the church you raid early on). Around about 1400 the Giovanni were already a prominent family of merchants/thugs, and the Cappadocian leader sired the head of the family for some reason. That first Giovanni vampire immediately set about embracing most of his close relatives, until they had enough numbers and strength to diablerize the head of the clan and take it over completely. Basically this, though Augustus Giovanni (as I recall that was his name... something with A) was embraced closer to like the 1100s or so. He was pretty old by the time he got around to actually diablerizing Cappodocius. In the meantime, he had kept ties with his own mortal family, and like selectively bred and embraced the cream of the crop. He kept doing this sort of poo poo and it became the clan's thing.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:17
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NeurosisHead posted:White wolf went with the original creation myth before the church changed it: that first God made Adam from the earth, then made Lilith to serve him. Lilith refused to be subservient, so she was cast out of Eden, and God made Eve from Adam's rib so that she would be his lesser and bound to him. Lilith, cast from Eden, went out into the world and lay down with demons (Caine and worse); bearing monsters (vampires and worse) forth into the world. The idea that Lilith was Adam's first wife was an invention of a medieval rabbi, actually. Lilith was just a baby-killing demon-spirit in the Mesopotamian faiths that were contemporary with early Judaism, and is mentioned in the Bible in that context. There's no historical basis to the revisionist notion that the early church fathers purged Adam's original wife from the Bible for political or misogynistic reasons. Likewise, the idea of Samael as the father of Cain is attributed to a first-century rabbi, though the text in question might have been written centuries later, and Lilith isn't present in this version of the myth at all. It sounds like you got your info from a well-intentioned but frustratingly revisionist thealogical source of the sort that would talk about the Burning Times and the Triple Goddess and so on. That said: in the World of Darkness, Lilith and Lucifer were totally bangin' 24/7, and that's how Lilith was able to get into the Garden of Eden and tempt Eve into eating the apple while Lucifer was supposed to be standing guard over the gates of Eden. Then Lilith gave birth to hordes of freaky-rear end sea-monsters, though God might have been her baby-daddy, not Lucifer.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:43
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I installed Bloodlines again, intending to finally BEAT THE FUCKER, spent 3 hours making it work properly in Wine... everything boots! My video settings work! I'm in game, the intro has played! I'm in-game!!! My mouse won't register properly and turning around is a hit-and-miss endeavor that can take up to five tries. One day my absolutely guileless face-crushing Brujah will get to see beyond Downtown of Bloodlines. If he can ever learn how to handle turning around.
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Mar 28, 2011 03:52
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gtrmp posted:The idea that Lilith was Adam's first wife was an invention of a medieval rabbi, actually. Lilith was just a baby-killing demon-spirit in the Mesopotamian faiths that were contemporary with early Judaism, and is mentioned in the Bible in that context. There's no historical basis to the revisionist notion that the early church fathers purged Adam's original wife from the Bible for political or misogynistic reasons. Likewise, the idea of Samael as the father of Cain is attributed to a first-century rabbi, though the text in question might have been written centuries later, and Lilith isn't present in this version of the myth at all. It sounds like you got your info from a well-intentioned but frustratingly revisionist thealogical source of the sort that would talk about the Burning Times and the Triple Goddess and so on. I absolutely do not want to turn this into an ill advised theological history debate; I am certainly no theologian myself, just an enthusiast. However, I thought that they mistranslation of Lilit to Lamia in the 4th century was part of the interpretive removal of Lilith from the creation myth. As near as I can tell only having Wikipedia and no better source at the moment this is accurate, but if you have any better sources readily available I would love to look over them and clarify my misunderstanding.
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Mar 28, 2011 09:04
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Lassitude posted:In the Gehenna scenarios do the end-game scenarios for the other parts of the WoD fiction play out concurrently? Does the werewolf Apocalypse happen as well as the mage Ascension? Its stated they could, but this is messy and most of the scenarios conflict with each other as well as the novels, though I think the mage ascension novel mentions that vampires just seemed to have disappeared with no one really noticing. In general, cross over was never really supported in oWoD, too many rules conflicted and it become a mess to convert stuff. Also the Hunter, Demon, Changeling, Mummy, even Kuei-jin apocalypse scenarios only barely mention vampire, nor each other even though Hunter would meddle in everyones affairs since pretty much all scenarios involve supernaturals being unmasked.
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Mar 28, 2011 10:08
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NeurosisHead posted:However, I thought that they mistranslation of Lilit to Lamia in the 4th century was part of the interpretive removal of Lilith from the creation myth. "Lilith" and "Lilit" are both valid transliterations of the same Hebrew word, though the latter is more accurate AFAIK. Either way, the figure of Lilith was never involved in the creation myth outside of rabbinical fanfic.
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Mar 28, 2011 10:33
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Is the other Vampire game (Redemption? I think) worth playing if I enjoyed Bloodlines?
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Mar 28, 2011 15:16
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Gyshall posted:Is the other Vampire game (Redemption? I think) worth playing if I enjoyed Bloodlines? No.
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Mar 28, 2011 15:20
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My opinion is that yes it's worth playing, but not because you enjoyed Bloodlines. They're at opposite ends of the RPG spectrum - Redemption is a hack-and-slash that has more in common with Diablo than Bloodlines, and the plot really just serves to shuttle you from one long dungeon to another. It's a pretty good hack and slash though. Some challenging encounters, lots of nice loot, poo poo-loads of disciplines (many more per character than Bloodlines) and a nice variety of locations streched over medieval and modern periods. It's like $6 on Good Old Games, I certainly got more than $6 of fun out of it.
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Mar 28, 2011 15:23
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Redemption is a cheerful reminder that Brujah was originally supposed to be pronounced "Broo-zhah". It's in first edition Vampire and everything.
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Mar 28, 2011 15:37
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Pope Guilty posted:Redemption is a cheerful reminder that Brujah was originally supposed to be pronounced "Broo-zhah". It's in first edition Vampire and everything. They also pronounce Tzimisce correctly.
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Mar 28, 2011 19:44
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Are there any Vampire or Werewolf novels worth reading?
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Mar 28, 2011 21:48
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