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Some of you are ruining the fun of just imagining hilarious situations. 
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Mar 29, 2011 19:00
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From a fluff standpoint these are pretty experienced mechwarriors, and would probably know how long a mechwarrior is likely to stay out while uninjured. I.E. not long.
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Mar 29, 2011 19:30
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Alchenar posted:Does PTN need to talk a bit about how much he's willing to let fluffy stuff override the rules? pretty sure he's already said that he does not expect the PCs to handicap themselves because of fluff. Like actually directly stated those exact words, so we should stop with the "BUT STEINER WOULD TOTALLY JUST ALPHA STRIKE EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME" because the PCs are already handicapped enough by going up against double their numbers in superior mechs. The way I see it, worst case scenario of taking out the mech's arm is exactly the same as the best case scenario for destroying him, i.e. you immediately get into a duel with the next Clanner. Best case scenario for destroying his arm is that you stall for at least a turn. I really don't see how this is even a debate...
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Mar 29, 2011 19:55
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raverrn posted:From a fluff standpoint these are pretty experienced mechwarriors, and would probably know how long a mechwarrior is likely to stay out while uninjured. I.E. not long. From what I understand though, at least in the books, there's really no way to tell how badly a mechwarrior could get hurt by a fall and it varies wildly depending on things like how the mech landed and so forth. So really there's no way of knowing that the Thunderchild pilot is knocked out, and even if there was we couldn't immediately think "oh he'll be awake momentarily"
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Mar 29, 2011 20:01
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From an LP perspective the Steiner pilots totally have to knock out that right arm and kick the dumb clanner out of the fight because it is badass and awesome. Clanners react strongly to badass awesomeness and so do goons who read BattleTech LPs. I was on a long flight last night and totally had some great ideas for returning the BattleTech IP to tabletop gaming. The whole Dark Age fiasco went badly because they tried to move the franchise backward and it failed. The BattleTech universe is clearly heading out of a period modeled after the Middle Ages to a more dynamic Renaissance period. Any company that picks up the IP will have an opportunity to re-invent the BattleTech universe and with it the game itself. An updated BattleTech with faster-paced games, a new re-balanced set of hardware, (projectile weapons, I'm looking at you) new mech designs and an updated metagame (choosing forces etc.) that keeps the core focus on giant robots beating the poo poo out of each other would be very popular. (And a refreshed IP would certainly make it more attractive for licensing in video games and other media.) It would give the rules space to evolve, which I think has been one of BattleTech's big failings. There's too much old baggage hanging around from the 80s when big-league game design was in its infancy. Projectile weapons suck, cannon rules make no sense, old designs are wildly out of balance with newer designs, and the heat-management strategy element of the game has enormous potential for innovation but hasn't changed much beyond heat sinks getting better. Combined arms are complicated by a mess of unbalanced units that range from pathetic to terrifying without much justification. The metagame hasn't moved forward much either. Carefully balanced unit rosters, purchasable upgrades and variations, and a lot of stuff you would expect out of the box in a modern tabletop game are either absent or grafted onto old rules. I personally would like to see a game where armor development is struggling to keep up with new weapons development, the way things usually are in real life. This would make combat speed up a little bit, would make terrain much more important, and, I think most importantly, would give players reason to pause and consider before they go for maximum tonnage. The heat management mechanic has so many cool ways to go: I'd like to see two or three new unique mechanics that can change the heat metagame on a unit-by-unit basis without giving the game special-rule-itis. Radiator vanes could let hotshot energy-based mechs tear poo poo up but also be very fragile and make the mech light up on IR sensors from miles away. Dedicated disposable heat sinks for hot weapons systems could give players enormous firepower at a crucial moment -- but players would have to decide when to hold back and when to use them because they eject after use. Rather than try to balance projectile weapons with energy weapons in damage output, I would rather let the game mechanics lead the way and try to find alternative reasons for players to choose guns over lasers. Varied ammunition types could make them more flexible, cheapness in a new points-value system could make them more attractive (codifying in the rules what is already established in the fluff) and new rules could divide autocannons into the stubby siege guns they now resemble and a new class of cannon that is more versatile and behaves more like a long gun. Just shooting weapons could be a hell of a lot more streamlined. Many weapon mounts are clearly twinned or arranged in bigger groups; it would speed up combat and make more sense to fire them as groups. This would be another reason to choose light mechs: an assault mech with a twin-linked PPC might get brutal center-torso hits firing twin-linked, but miss with half the salvo against a light mech because the weapon mount is bigger than the target! There's just a ton of room for innovation and streamlining in the clunky targeting and hit-location rules. What if you put three PPCs in a rotary mount, how would you handle that in the rules? Would you give it heat-saving bonuses that decrease as you fire it more times per turn? Armor and mech design could use revisits too. Why are designs capped at one standard tonnage!? In real life, war machines get weighed down by all sorts of upgrades and add-ons, first slapdash improvements by frontline units then official re-fit kits from the factory, whether it's a good idea or not. The way armor works right now, it's rarely worth using specialty armor because you have to change your whole mech's armor and lose a lot of points. Why not just slap a reactive armor kit on the front torso, or apply mirror-finishes or ablative foam to underlying armors? Should you give armor-slope bonuses to incoming fire from a certain direction? Not all of these would necessarily be a good idea from the perspective of designing a more streamlined game with more tactical nuance and less paperwork. But it's wide open for new ideas. There are so many things that just haven't been tried because the rules and the universe haven't been moved forward in a way that's credible to the fans. My flight ended before I thought of anything for missiles, so whatever. Unfortunately no one will ever care about my wonderful ideas. Such is the way of wargames, so many fans with pet ideas, so little real opportunity to design. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Mar 29, 2011 |
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Mar 29, 2011 21:12
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Trast posted:Some of you are ruining the fun of just imagining hilarious situations. Someone is moving in on my turf? You bastards! Nah, I actually completely approve of blowing the right arm off the Nova and then bidding it (as a club) to beat the crap out of someone. It probably will get you shot to hell, but it makes for the badass kind of story you don't mind having told in the eulogy of your funeral. And there's still the off chance it works.
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Mar 29, 2011 21:30
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Arglebargle III posted:Unfortunately no one will ever care about my wonderful ideas. Such is the way of wargames, so many fans with pet ideas, so little real opportunity to design.  I liked your ideas. MegaMek goes only so far into making it more playable/enjoyable/creative. I also hate the Dark Ages setting and always thought it might be interesting to go look at the periphery for a while if there's a need for new heroes and villains, while still leaving the option to have influence from one or two great houses or clans on the border.
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Mar 29, 2011 21:48
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Zaodai posted:And there's still the off chance it works. Exactly. I'm not terribly familiar with Steel Vipers beyond "INCREDIBLY strict about combat rules", but I have to imagine a display of bravado and neosteel balls like that would gain their respect. Or least have them laughing so hard it stalls for a couple of turns.
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Mar 29, 2011 21:56
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With all this talk of the Cyclops/
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Mar 29, 2011 22:37
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Arglebargle III posted:Dedicated disposable heat sinks for hot weapons systems could give players enormous firepower at a crucial moment -- but players would have to decide when to hold back and when to use them because they eject after use. Slight nitpick: That's actually already implemented in some sort. Coolant pods weigh 1 ton each, can be used once and cause all heat sinks on your Mech to dissipate an extra point of heat that turn. (They also cause damage like an ammo explosion if hit.) Same goes for a few other thing, too, like different types of armor on different parts of the Mech, which is already possible under Level 3 rules (IIRC it's called patchwork armor). Otherwise, I concur with your post.
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Mar 29, 2011 22:53
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Chronojam posted:I also hate the Dark Ages setting and always thought it might be interesting to go look at the periphery for a while if there's a need for new heroes and villains, while still leaving the option to have influence from one or two great houses or clans on the border. Yeah, the Dark Ages setting was an overreaction against the game universe changing. Personally I think that a new iteration would either just ignore and de-canonize the whole Dark Age thing or just say that the Inner Sphere was able to bounce back because of the explosion of pre-Jihad technology. Really, the Succession Wars were good, and the Clan invasion was good, but in order for the setting to continue you have to let these things have consequences. The Inner Sphere underwent a series of massive traumas and also a series of rapid advances. To take the Middle Age analogy, we should see political splintering but also a ton of new ground being broken like the real Renaissance. The setting needs new technologies, new tactics, new sovereign states and new attitudes. Not only does it need them, but the plot line clearly leads there if someone would just let it progress! I would expect the Successor States to continue to be the most powerful entities, but new states like the Raselhague Dominion or places like Skye or Tikanov that have had strong local identities for centuries to establish themselves as well. I would also expect a new age of exploration. The Clan invasion has made the Successor States think seriously about the deep periphery for the first time. With Jumpships being built for the first time in centuries, it won't be long before the Successor States realize that there's gold in the New World out there! (That they can use to fund their armies and fleets, of course.) Basically, the stage was set back in the 31st century. All you have to do is follow the plot to its logical consequences and you get a believable and evolving setting with, most importantly, new mechs to pilot, new causes to fight for and new places to conquer. Dark Age was a misguided attempt to return to status quo ante bellum, when the better solution would have been to print a new game and let people who want to play classic BattleTech a book full of old mechs to play with in old settings.
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Mar 30, 2011 00:01
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Magni posted:Same goes for a few other thing, too, like different types of armor on different parts of the Mech, which is already possible under Level 3 rules (IIRC it's called patchwork armor). I suspected that some of the things I mentioned had already been explored. But here I actually was more meaning why can't we have different armor and go over the weight limit with armor kits or other random crap. The idea that tonnage is a kind of sacrosanct limit strikes me as kind of silly now that the game has recognized that tonnage really is not a good way to measure much of anything. This approach would make internal space and engine selection a meaningful choice instead of, as was recently mentioned, just a meaningless distinction to everyone but assault pilots. (Assuming you rebalanced for a mix of qualities instead of just tonnage.) Adding bulky or heavy stuff would give obvious bonuses (the extra crap you welded onto your mech) and negative modifiers (you welded all this crap to my beautiful mech!) The idea is to give players another area of choice, and make earlier choices that were trivial significant. This is something I have heard game designers say over and over again, that a good game gives the players enough options to play with that every choice they make is significant, and eliminates everything else (i.e. bookkeeping and useless options) as much as possible. edit: Doupost is dezgra, quineg? Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Mar 30, 2011 |
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Mar 30, 2011 00:08
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Arglebargle III posted:edit: Doupost is dezgra, quineg? Aff. Honestly, I wouldn't want to see things changed too much. Part of the appeal is that there is that consistency. I can pull out a twenty year old rulebook and it's still 95% correct. As opposed to other tabletop games (like Warhammer) which come out with a new edition every couple years that significantly alter the base game. It's like a worn old blanket - yes, it isn't the best at what it does but it's comfortable and does pretty well in spite of the flaws. Evolutionary changes, yes - but I think revolutionary ones would be detrimental. I do think in-universe shakeups would be interesting, though. There's a lot of story potential that's never been properly exploited - too many of those interesting smaller nations (like Rasalhauge and Tikonov) didn't survive long enough or get enough screentime.
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Mar 30, 2011 00:28
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Arglebargle III posted:I was on a long flight last night and totally had some great ideas for returning the BattleTech IP to tabletop gaming. Arglebargle III posted:The idea that tonnage is a kind of sacrosanct limit strikes me as kind of silly now that the game has recognized that tonnage really is not a good way to measure much of anything.
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Mar 30, 2011 00:45
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Zaodai posted:Someone is moving in on my turf? You bastards! Wait you agree with us? Now I feel kinda dirty. 
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Mar 30, 2011 00:55
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Alright, I feel like I'm going crazy. I could swear there was a mech similar in design to the Timber Wolf, but with only the missile pods up top, no arms. I'm aware of the Catapult, and I know that's not it. My main experience with the franchise is from playing Mechwarrior 2 (Jade Falcon represent!) and reading a few of the books. Is it possible I'm just misremembering the Timber Wolf on its' own, or is there such a mech? In relation to the thread: As Mukakaibo doesn't seem to have picked his freebie yet, I am SO hoping someone will shortly be tearing around in an itty bitty Locust. Because more Mechs is always better, right? 
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Mar 30, 2011 02:45
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SageNytell posted:Alright, I feel like I'm going crazy. I could swear there was a mech similar in design to the Timber Wolf, but with only the missile pods up top, no arms. I'm aware of the Catapult, and I know that's not it. My main experience with the franchise is from playing Mechwarrior 2 (Jade Falcon represent!) and reading a few of the books. Is it possible I'm just misremembering the Timber Wolf on its' own, or is there such a mech? I proposed a new reward, and PTN accepted; we fought the Trial of Possession alluded to in the clanner update before this battle.
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Mar 30, 2011 02:51
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SageNytell posted:Alright, I feel like I'm going crazy. I could swear there was a mech similar in design to the Timber Wolf, but with only the missile pods up top, no arms. I'm aware of the Catapult, and I know that's not it. My main experience with the franchise is from playing Mechwarrior 2 (Jade Falcon represent!) and reading a few of the books. Is it possible I'm just misremembering the Timber Wolf on its' own, or is there such a mech?
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Mar 30, 2011 02:53
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SageNytell posted:Alright, I feel like I'm going crazy. I could swear there was a mech similar in design to the Timber Wolf, but with only the missile pods up top, no arms. I'm aware of the Catapult, and I know that's not it. My main experience with the franchise is from playing Mechwarrior 2 (Jade Falcon represent!) and reading a few of the books. Is it possible I'm just misremembering the Timber Wolf on its' own, or is there such a mech? In the video games, I'm reasonably sure the Mad Cat is always depicted with it's arms attached. I'm unaware of variants of it that run armless, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was one just for the absurdity of it. The only mechs I can think of that fit the description aside from the Catapult (which is pretty much exactly what you mean...) are the Longbow and the Owens. No, they're not particularly "Mad Cat-ish", but they're the only other mechs I can think of off the top of my head that really fit the bill.
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Mar 30, 2011 03:03
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Stalker or Jenner, maybe, but there were not IS mechs in MW2 original.
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Mar 30, 2011 03:31
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They took the arms off the Timber Wolf in the back of TR 3050 to show details of the 'mech in profile that would have otherwise been obstructed. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
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Mar 30, 2011 03:39
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Chronojam posted:Stalker or Jenner, maybe, but there were not IS mechs in MW2 original. There was the Jenner IIc however
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Mar 30, 2011 03:44
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I was thinking a Mad Dog, but they do have arms.
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Mar 30, 2011 03:58
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Arquinsiel posted:Some of the books show the Timber Wolf without the arms for some unknown reason. I'm guessing because if the omni-pods aren't attached then magically the shoulders become the arms in the same way the Catapult is configured or something.... This must be it. I remember the profile of the missile pods being really broad, in the style of the Timber Wolf, not like the more manageable ones on the Catapult. It looked like a giant fuckoff missile boat, and I've been searching through on Sarna but was unable to find it. Must have seen an illustration of it in one of the books and thought it was a different mech. That said, I am surprised there is no larger version of the Catapult, seems like a sensible sniper design.
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Mar 30, 2011 04:27
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Yeoman?
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Mar 30, 2011 04:28
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SageNytell posted:This must be it. I remember the profile of the missile pods being really broad, in the style of the Timber Wolf, not like the more manageable ones on the Catapult. It looked like a giant fuckoff missile boat, and I've been searching through on Sarna but was unable to find it. Must have seen an illustration of it in one of the books and thought it was a different mech. The Stalker maybe? Although it really doesn't fit the missile pod description.
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Mar 30, 2011 04:30
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raverrn posted:Yeoman? My overworked brain probably combined the two designs into one. I could swear there was something in the middle though.  Anyways, in non-derail news... Let's see some Dead Space-style dismemberment! Cut off their limbs and those clanners won't know what hit 'em!
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Mar 30, 2011 04:38
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SageNytell posted:This must be it. I remember the profile of the missile pods being really broad, in the style of the Timber Wolf, not like the more manageable ones on the Catapult. It looked like a giant fuckoff missile boat, and I've been searching through on Sarna but was unable to find it. Must have seen an illustration of it in one of the books and thought it was a different mech. There is a bigger version...sort of. One of the unseen, the Archer, is five tons heavier and carries a nearly identical weapons loadout (only it carries 2 LRM-20s instead of 2 LRM-15s), but it does not share the same shape profile. Some variants of it can be nearly as lethal as an Atlas in terms of battle value. raverrn posted:Yeoman? That's a very strange design. Just imagine the glorious ammo explosions that can take place with that loadout...
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Mar 30, 2011 04:41
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SageNytell posted:That said, I am surprised there is no larger version of the Catapult, seems like a sensible sniper design. The Longbow I'd say is probably the upscaled Catapult you'd be looking for. 2x LRM-20s, 2x LRM-5s, and 2x medium lasers (base configuration of course). In Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries you could make some pretty broken Missile Boat loadouts of it packing up to 4 CLRM-20s into the frame. There's also an official version that has 4 LRM-15s so needless to say even some of the official versions of the Longbow can be pretty powerful. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Mar 30, 2011 |
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Mar 30, 2011 04:47
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There's also the Viking if you're FRR or ComStar. If you want to take jumping missile boats to the extreme there's the Night Gyr D, which is a 70-ton Clan jump capable Omni that packs 80 Clan LRMs.
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Mar 30, 2011 04:55
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Defiance Industries posted:If you want to take jumping missile boats to the extreme there's the Night Gyr D, which is a 70-ton Clan jump capable Omni that packs 80 Clan LRMs. Ah, the Night Gyr. With what I still maintain is one of the dumbest technological advances yet - laser heat sinks. Which cool you by taking the heat generated by your lasers and turning them into more lasers that make you cooler instead of hotter for some reason. And makes your mech look like a goddamn disco ball.
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Mar 30, 2011 05:08
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landcollector posted:That's a very strange design. Just imagine the glorious ammo explosions that can take place with that loadout... Now there's a mech built for getting rid of political dissidents. Hell, an ammo pop on that thing should hit everyone within 3 hexes. Unless, of course, you manage to somehow empty the damned thing.
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Mar 30, 2011 05:09
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Veyrall posted:Now there's a mech built for getting rid of political dissidents. Hell, an ammo pop on that thing should hit everyone within 3 hexes. Unless, of course, you manage to somehow empty the damned thing. LRM 20s make that very easy, the later versions get arrow 4s
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Mar 30, 2011 05:27
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Tempest_56 posted:Ah, the Night Gyr. With what I still maintain is one of the dumbest technological advances yet - laser heat sinks. Which cool you by taking the heat generated by your lasers and turning them into more lasers that make you cooler instead of hotter for some reason. And makes your mech look like a goddamn disco ball. The dumbest?! That is the most awesome thing the Clans could have ever made! Not only it is absolutely kick-rear end during the post-victory party, but if you have an entire Star equipped with those, you can incapacitate the enemy mechwarriors by causing them seizures!  Please, tell me those things exists in this alternate timeline!
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Mar 30, 2011 05:39
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Tempest_56 posted:Ah, the Night Gyr. With what I still maintain is one of the dumbest technological advances yet - laser heat sinks. Which cool you by taking the heat generated by your lasers and turning them into more lasers that make you cooler instead of hotter for some reason. And makes your mech look like a goddamn disco ball. Well you can actually cool things with lasers, as was discussed earlier in this thread (but don't worry I don't think anybody is expecting anybody to search 150+ pages to find that out), it's how scientists keep attempting to get something down to absolute zero. Also lets be perfectly fair here, you can try to camouflage a 'mech but they're anywhere from 8-13 meters tall. Making one light up like a Christmas tree is probably not all that bad. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 30, 2011 |
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Mar 30, 2011 05:39
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Angry_Ed posted:Well you can actually cool things with lasers, as was discussed earlier in this thread (but don't worry I don't think anybody is expecting anybody to search 150+ pages to find that out), it's how scientists keep attempting to get something down to absolute zero. I fire a pair of Large Pulse Lasers. This generates 20 points of heat. My laser heat sinks take that heat and convert it into lasers. This reduces my heat by 20 points. This is like dousing yourself in gasoline to cool off.
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Mar 30, 2011 05:43
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Tempest_56 posted:I fire a pair of Large Pulse Lasers. This generates 20 points of heat. The Laser Heat sink works by converting Infared Energy (heat) into light (lasers). Just because it's a laser doesn't mean it's a fuckoff beam of concentrated death. Otherwise laser pointers would require permits to use. I'm not saying the science is 100% flawless and sound, but then again this is a universe where multistory war machines have supplanted battletanks.
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Mar 30, 2011 05:48
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Chronojam posted:Stalker or Jenner, maybe, but there were not IS mechs in MW2 original. Actually I was wrong here, there were Battlemasters piloted by Kell Hounds. But, those are nothing like the missile boats.
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Mar 30, 2011 05:49
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Angry_Ed posted:The Laser Heat sink works by converting Infared Energy (heat) into light (lasers). Just because it's a laser doesn't mean it's a fuckoff beam of concentrated death. Otherwise laser pointers would require permits to use. My stance on the issue is that while laser heat sinks may work, I'll take conventional double heat sinks instead. My 12-15 meter tall war machine is already noticeable enough, why make it stand out even more?
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Mar 30, 2011 05:52
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| # ? May 10, 2024 06:41 |
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We've been down this road, its not a good road and it ends with physics discussions. And friends don't let friends discuss physics in BT
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Mar 30, 2011 05:52
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