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syphon posted:I kind of assumed that the herb is commonly available in the wild, or the Kvothe started using it after he left came into some money. Then again, Kvothe wasn't even sexually active before going to Adem, so it's possible that he started taking it after his time with Ferulian. Are we *seriously* discussing the main character's financial ability to make use of birth control in this series?
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Mar 30, 2011 01:48
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I see lots of people saying that he's still got to get expelled in book 3, but do we know for sure that the 30-second expulsion he had in book 1 doesn't count as the one mentioned in his self-intro? My guess is that this is the case and he actually spends like 3/4 of book 3 there and only leaves once the whole world goes to hell.
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Mar 30, 2011 01:57
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No--expulsion was only one of the penalties for what he did, and the masters voted not to have him expelled at all. He wasn't expelled for any amount of time.
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Mar 30, 2011 02:55
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No, expulsion was compulsory and they opted to repeal it after enacting it.
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Mar 30, 2011 07:50
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Dendra posted:No, expulsion was compulsory and they opted to repeal it after enacting it. Ah. Well, I haven't read the first book in a while so I dunno why I was so sure of myself, haha.
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Mar 30, 2011 07:51
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Habibi posted:Finished the book on a trip late last week, and wanted to take some time to digest it before briefly posting my thoughts. And having now digested it, the preeminent thought I have is: Rothfuss spent 4 years and 1000 pages on about 3 months worth of timeline and almost no actual story movement. 20 months actually (or maybe even 2-3 years if you count the time in the Fae). Not that it is much better. Flatscan posted:Ok, his editor isn't lazy, just poo poo. No, just in the usual quandary every editor of an author who "got big" is: The publisher will do everything not to lose the author. The one thing every author despises is an editor "meddling" with his vision, cutting away page after boring page. So to make sure the author is happy and won't change to another publisher the editor isn't allowed to cut anything anymore. The result is that the books get longer and longer, filled with boring poo poo and rambling about things nobody except the author cares about. And instead of a snappy, well-written and precise 400-600 page story you get a boring 900+ page "epic" book, with the author's vision fully intact (= full of boring poo poo between the good parts). And that's why Fantasy in general is filled with 900+ pages tomes (usually part of a trilogy/series). Decius fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Mar 30, 2011 |
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Mar 30, 2011 08:15
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If he would just knock it off with the goony sex stuff and hire an editor with the balls to tell him he needs to cut the boring crap out, these books would go from a decent read to some of the better fantasy books around.
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Mar 30, 2011 17:25
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Dendra posted:No, expulsion was compulsory and they opted to repeal it after enacting it. I'm in the same boat as Mahlertov Cocktail (haven't read NotW since it was released), but I thought at the end he specifically says in the epilogue part something like, "blah blah blah and Ambrose would get me kicked out of the university." As in it was going to happen AFTER the first book, not that it kind of happened in the first book.
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Mar 30, 2011 17:36
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masada00 posted:On a related note, since the Adem don't realize how babies are made, that means these girls are running around banging their dads and brothers.
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Mar 30, 2011 17:55
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Habibi posted:I don't know if there is a historical precedent, but it seems to me thoroughly impossible for a civilization to exist for thousands of years and not figure out the causality chain of getting pregnant. If they really have sex as often as they apparently claim to, it's probably not impossible. If you have sex every day it would be no more apparent that sex is linked to pregnancy than eating breakfast is. Of course, it's hard to imagine that every woman has sex that frequently, and that the entire civilization has never had even one person curious enough to explore the idea, especially once they heard the outsider theory of "sex makes babies". But I can stretch my disbelief that far, I guess.
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Mar 30, 2011 18:07
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Sophia posted:If they really have sex as often as they apparently claim to, it's probably not impossible. If you have sex every day it would be no more apparent that sex is linked to pregnancy than eating breakfast is. Exactly, but think of it the other way around - we're basically told that when women want to get pregnant, they make it happen. Combining it with your argument above, we can boil it down to: there's never been a time when a woman - who, incidentally, is having sex several times a day with a variety of different partners - has gotten pregnant despite not 'wanting' it to happen. I imagine that given all the blaise attitude and the amount of humping that goes on, this would be a frequent occurrence, and would lead to questions that can only be explained away with "well you must have wanted it subconsciously" for so long. Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 30, 2011 |
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Mar 30, 2011 18:21
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I have to admit I skimmed over a lot of the stuff that was "sex chat" in the book, but I don't remember it being explained as a physical manifestation of will. I thought it was like "when it happens, it was wanted" or something that was more retroactive. But you could be totally right. If so, then yes, that seems very unbelievable.
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Mar 30, 2011 18:29
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I'm only a quarter way through the book, but man the supporting cast is so utterly drab and dull. I just finished off the First Law and Best Served Cold, with The Crippled God in between, and Abercrombie's cast is so lackluster in comparison. The Harry Potter cast of supporting characters was more memorable.
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Mar 30, 2011 18:36
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:I'm only a quarter way through the book, but man the supporting cast is so utterly drab and dull. I just finished off the First Law and Best Served Cold, with The Crippled God in between, and Abercrombie's cast is so lackluster in comparison. The Harry Potter cast of supporting characters was more memorable. Did you mean Rothfuss' cast, not Abercrombie's?
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Mar 30, 2011 19:16
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Habibi posted:Did you mean Rothfuss' cast, not Abercrombie's? Oh, poo poo. Yeah, obviously Abercrombie's cast is by far the most interesting. Rothfuss' is just blah.
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Mar 30, 2011 19:24
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Habibi posted:And this just reminds me - that bit of the story absolutely infuriated me (not to the point of actual rage, but it completely spoiled the immersion up till that point). I don't know if there is a historical precedent, but it seems to me thoroughly impossible for a civilization to exist for thousands of years and not figure out the causality chain of getting pregnant. Obviously, any work of fantasy requires some suspension of disbelief, and I feel like good authors will come up with interesting ideas that challenge, but don't completely break, this effect. Ideas that make you go, "Weeeelll, that's fascinating, and while incredibly far-fetched could still make sense / come about given certain circumstances." This was not one of those ideas. They can't have any farms or farmers either, because they'd pretty soon notice that no rams in the flock = no lambs in spring.
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Mar 30, 2011 20:20
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Flatscan posted:They can't have any farms or farmers either, because they'd pretty soon notice that no rams in the flock = no lambs in spring. Who needs food - they eat WORDS.
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Mar 30, 2011 20:26
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Flatscan posted:They can't have any farms or farmers either, because they'd pretty soon notice that no rams in the flock = no lambs in spring.
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Mar 30, 2011 20:30
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Flatscan posted:They can't have any farms or farmers either, because they'd pretty soon notice that no rams in the flock = no lambs in spring. Wasn't that very argument brought up in the book and dismissed with a handwave of 'that's animals, not people, stupid'? I mean I think not making the connection between loving and pregnancy is stupid but c'mon, going 'well didn't anyone ever think about x' when there are characters (or just one, but whatever) in the book going 'well, didn't anyone ever think about x' is just lazy.
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Mar 30, 2011 20:49
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neongrey posted:Wasn't that very argument brought up in the book and dismissed with a handwave of 'that's animals, not people, stupid'?
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Mar 30, 2011 20:55
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I don't remember that, but by that point of the book my brain was starting to hurt from the sheer amount of retardation.
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Mar 30, 2011 21:06
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Above Our Own posted:Yeah it is mind-boggling how poorly that was thought out. What about physical resemblances? I mean those Adem that banged Kvothe mind end up with red-haired children or something, and you've got to think someone would notice this somewhere across the millenia of their history. Admittedly it took humanity quite some time to realize this in reality too. One current theory is that this knowledge was a main reason why societies went from matriarchal to patriarchal. But that was during the stone ages. Not by people who had developed a sophisticated society, philosophy, letters and science.
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Mar 30, 2011 21:20
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Flatscan posted:I don't remember that, but by that point of the book my brain was starting to hurt from the sheer amount of retardation. Yeah, when they had the big to-do with Cinder in the woods, I was thinking, "Okay, sweet! Now we finally get back to the Mael and advance this storyline a bit!" Then...Felurian appeared out of nowhere and he takes off chasing her. But finally that's over and I'm thinking, "Okay, sweet! Now we finally get back to the Mael and advance this storyline a bit! And maybe he won't be such a bitch with Denna!" And then...he went off to Adem. drat your poor discretion, Patrick Rothfuss!
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Mar 30, 2011 21:23
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Habibi posted:Exactly, but think of it the other way around - we're basically told that when women want to get pregnant, they make it happen. Combining it with your argument above, we can boil it down to: there's never been a time when a woman - who, incidentally, is having sex several times a day with a variety of different partners - has gotten pregnant despite not 'wanting' it to happen. I imagine that given all the blaise attitude and the amount of humping that goes on, this would be a frequent occurrence, and would lead to questions that can only be explained away with "well you must have wanted it subconsciously" for so long. Dumb sex talk: Why can't the women also be chewing on the contraceptive plants, such that when they want to get pregnant, they stop eating the plants, and because they're having sex 24/6 they end up pregnant at some point in the future? Since no one's not having sex, the correlation would be quite good. Sex.
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Mar 30, 2011 22:19
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I actually liked the whole retarded "man mother" bit. Before that I was wondering why a society where women are the warrior elite would practice nonstop humping with no knowledge of birth control so that their best fighters are perpetually pregnant or nursing. Rothfuss neatly resolves this incongruity by making it clear that the Adem are complete morons who don't know what fathers are, smile with their hands, wear shoes on their heads, and think hamburgers eat people.
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Mar 31, 2011 02:09
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Lyon posted:I'm in the same boat as Mahlertov Cocktail (haven't read NotW since it was released), but I thought at the end he specifically says in the epilogue part something like, "blah blah blah and Ambrose would get me kicked out of the university." As in it was going to happen AFTER the first book, not that it kind of happened in the first book. Pretty sure it said "forced to leave" rather than "expelled", which was certainly the case with the trial. I'm not saying that the expulsion from the first book is what he was referring to, I was just clarifying that he was technically expelled.
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Mar 31, 2011 04:47
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I really, really wanted to love this book. Dang it Rothfuss didn't your blog say you had "beta readers"? I wonder what these guys have to say for themselves?
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Mar 31, 2011 04:48
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Bantaras posted:I really, really wanted to love this book. Same. I would really like to get his thoughts on all the criticisms of this book. Maybe if he's made aware of some of the glaring problems he can still salvage the last bit.
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Mar 31, 2011 05:12
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Something interesting I've read, to move away from all the bitching about the shortcomings of the book: These three passages connected: "Making something like that is called artificing," I said. "Sygaldry is writing or carving the runes that make it work." Denna's eyes lit up at this. "So it's a magic where you write things down?" she asked, leaning forward in her chair. "How does it work?" I hesitated. Not only because it was a huge question, but because the University has very specific rules about sharing Arcanum secrets. "It's rather complicated," I said. Luckily, at that moment there was another knock on the door... Denna looked embarrassed as she asked, "What if someone told you they knew a type of magic that did more than that? A magic where you sort of wrote things down, and whatever you wrote became true?" She looked down nervously, her fingers tracing patterns on the tabletop. "Then, if someone saw the writing, even if they couldn't read it, it would be true for them. They'd think a certain thing, or act a certain way depending on what the writing said." She looked up at us again, her expression a mix of curiosity, hope, and uncertainty... "Sounds like fairie-tale magic," I said. "Storybook stuff that doesn't exist. I certainly never heard about anything like that at the University." Denna looked down at the tabletop where her fingers still traced patterns against the wood. [Kvothe discovers the Yllish braid that says "lovely"] Denna finally untied the blue string and began to unfurl the braid, her quick fingers smoothing it back into her hair. "You didn't have to do that," I said. "I liked it better before." "That's rather the point, isn't it?" She looked up at me, tilting her chin proudly as she shook out her hair. "There. What do you think now?" So Denna tries to make her own magic (regardless if it works or not)? Also, anyone else who thinks Bredon is Master Ash? Both carry a walking stick, both dance... - why else introduce Bredon without using him?
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Mar 31, 2011 09:03
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Decius posted:Admittedly it took humanity quite some time to realize this in reality too. One current theory is that this knowledge was a main reason why societies went from matriarchal to patriarchal. But that was during the stone ages. Not by people who had developed a sophisticated society, philosophy, letters and science. That theory is that women understood pregnancy and it was kept from men though, which makes a lot more sense. It's hard to believe that women with a strong community and oral tradition couldn't figure out that sex makes pregnancy, but it's much less of a stretch to believe that men wouldn't make a connection between having sex and then months later the same girl gets noticeably pregnant.
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Mar 31, 2011 11:52
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Decius posted:Something interesting I've read, to move away from all the bitching about the shortcomings of the book: I believe the working theory is that Master Ash is Cinder, and has taught Denna some Yllish braiding. Kvothe sees Master Ash with Denna at the Elorian in NotW, so I would assume he would recognize him if it was Bredon.
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Mar 31, 2011 13:54
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MarshallX posted:I believe the working theory is that Master Ash is Cinder, and has taught Denna some Yllish braiding.
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Mar 31, 2011 14:08
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Above Our Own posted:But he wouldn't if it was Cinder? Since he nearly recognized him from a great distance away when he encountered the bandits, I find this highly unlikely. He sees Cinder from a distance and thinks he looks familiar, but doesn't put it all together. Presumably, if he had encountered him close-up, he may have figured it out - so it's still possible, just unlikely, that Bredon is Cinder.
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Mar 31, 2011 15:01
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My thought is that Bredon is part of the human Amyr and Denna's patron. I think at this point Kvothe would be able to sense the "otherness" of one of the Chandrian. He's a pretty talented magician, smart, and he's had encounters with multiple non-human entities now. Of course one question I've been wondering about is why Denna's patron is having her write a song about Lanre being a hero. If you know too much about the Chandrian they come and kill your rear end, unless you work for them and her patron is Cinder, or maybe like Ferulian if write a song painting them as heroes they let you live! Shouldn't Kvothe potentially warn her about this?
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Mar 31, 2011 20:31
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Lyon posted:My thought is that Bredon is part of the human Amyr and Denna's patron. I think at this point Kvothe would be able to sense the "otherness" of one of the Chandrian. He's a pretty talented magician, smart, and he's had encounters with multiple non-human entities now. quote:Shouldn't Kvothe potentially warn her about this?
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Mar 31, 2011 20:38
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Lyon posted:My thought is that Bredon is part of the human Amyr and Denna's patron. That's also how I read it. I think their games of Tak foreshadow the actual state of the world, which is that Kvothe initially thinks he's hot poo poo, only to find that he's being toyed with by someone who really knows and understands the rules of the game, and who can crush him handily if so inclined.
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Mar 31, 2011 23:14
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greatZebu posted:That's also how I read it. I think their games of Tak foreshadow the actual state of the world, which is that Kvothe initially thinks he's hot poo poo, only to find that he's being toyed with by someone who really knows and understands the rules of the game, and who can crush him handily if so inclined. But it's OK as long as he plays a beautiful game.
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Apr 1, 2011 02:35
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When does Kvothe see Denna's patron (Master Ash) in the Eolian? I don't recall this at all. Are you sure it wasn't someone else? Does he get a good look? Because I really like the theory that Bredon = Amyr / Master Ash.
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Apr 1, 2011 09:05
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I remember him seeing one of her patrons there but I can't remember if she confirmed it was Master Ash
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Apr 1, 2011 09:13
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Decius posted:Also, anyone else who thinks Bredon is Master Ash? Both carry a walking stick, both dance... - why else introduce Bredon without using him? This is exactly what I was thinking as well, not only because of the reasons you gave but also because the timing of their coming and goings in Severen seem to match.
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Apr 2, 2011 13:44
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