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Nigulus Rex posted:Shrug. The point is that it's Malazan Universe. If I wanted to read something by a 'better' author, then I would...but it's not Malazan and therefore I care less at this point in time. i don't understand what you're saying here. i don't care what you read, we're not talking about recommendations for you here. you are entitled to your opinion on ICE but some guy asked us if there was a place he could read a synopsis of ICE's book plots. you went all "ugh just read the books" and said that ICE was a 'good author' as if it was a fact and not your personal opinion and that's what i took issue with. Turpitude posted:Since we are recommending stuff I'll throw in Sailing to Sarantium by Guy Gavriel Kay, which is more like Historical Byzantine Empire Fantasy. It has some of the best action scenes I've ever read in the form of chariot races. hey thanks for the recommendation, i'll check it out! General Battuta posted:Altered Carbon was way way better. haha, i'm actually re-reading Altered Carbon right now and i agree but if somebody isn't that into scifi i usually recommend Market Forces as a primer because it's a standalone novel. (although of course Altered Carbon, Broken Angels and Woken Furies are all kind of standalone as well..) Opal fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Mar 31, 2011 |
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Mar 31, 2011 16:37
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I rather enjoyed Esslemont's books. You can do far worse than him if picking up Fantasy (although there are of course many better authors available, nobody would deny that). I really don't understand the hate for his books. His stuff isn't any worse than Rothfuss, Ruckley, Buckell or Charan Newton in my opinion. Not the best, not the worst, perfectly fine entertainment with some flaws - which Steven Erikson has too, albeit on a far higher level. Edit: Market Forces is Decius fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Mar 31, 2011 |
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Mar 31, 2011 17:25
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I liked Esslemont's books, too. I'm reading Sanderson, now, and as far as quality of writing and plot development go, I'd say Esslemont is easily on par with him. I've read a lot of mainstream, popular fantasy that I'd say is about equal in terms of quality to Esslemont...Like The Warded Man by Brett. The thing that ruins us all is how loving good Erikson is.
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Mar 31, 2011 17:31
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I dragged it out as long as I could because I didn't want it to end. quote:Other stuff: (TCG) Also, I liked that one of the dragons chained to Ruin's sword was named Kalse. That means that every KCCM spire is named after and probably modelled on one specific dragon that they liked.
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Mar 31, 2011 17:45
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Other stuff: (TCG) Whoa. I totally didn't catch that.
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Mar 31, 2011 18:33
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Habibi posted:I don't think we actually know any of this (certainly not the 2nd - I'm not 100% sure on 1 and 3). Isn't Kalse one of the Dragons chained up in the Shadow Realm, in the first scene where we meet Edgewalker? Or is Kalse one of the ones that Cotillion bargains with in the prologue of TCG? Memory is failing me.
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Mar 31, 2011 18:44
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Cervixalot posted:Isn't Kalse one of the Dragons chained up in the Shadow Realm, in the first scene where we meet Edgewalker? Or is Kalse one of the ones that Cotillion bargains with in the prologue of TCG? Memory is failing me. Yeah, it's Ampelas, Kalse, and Eloth, I believe. Spelling might be off.
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Mar 31, 2011 18:47
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quote:Questions: (TCG)Is Tavore the Talonmaster, or merely a member? House of Chains & TCG spoilers - This is a great question that brings up an interesting point. It was previously revealed in House of Chains that Korbolo Dom was the Talon Master but Tavore is seemingly unaware of this fact despite being a member herself. I know Cotollion segmented them specifically but it still seems like a weak explanation for why a member of the Talon is leading her army at cross-purposes against the master of her order.
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Mar 31, 2011 19:18
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The Gunslinger posted:[/spoiler] The emperor is dead, the Talons are extinct and not everyone is a crazy, obssessive tryhard like Tavore?
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Mar 31, 2011 19:39
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The Gunslinger posted:House of Chains & TCG spoilers - This is a great question that brings up an interesting point. It was previously revealed in House of Chains that Korbolo Dom was the Talon Master but Tavore is seemingly unaware of this fact despite being a member herself. I know Cotollion segmented them specifically but it still seems like a weak explanation for why a member of the Talon is leading her army at cross-purposes against the master of her order.
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Mar 31, 2011 19:43
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Illuyankas posted:Korbolo Dom just made up his own assassin organisation and called them Talons. They're not connected to the originals, and Cotillion probably doesn't give a poo poo what they do. are you sure he actually called them the Talon? i seem to remember they were called something else but i might be mistaken. Decius posted:Edit: Market Forces is i actually preferred Market Forces to Black Man but maybe i was coloured by having read it first and Black Man last. his style gets a bit same-samey after a while.
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Mar 31, 2011 20:07
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the periodic fable posted:are you sure he actually called them the Talon? i seem to remember they were called something else but i might be mistaken. HoC spoilers Laseen purged them from the empire prior to the events in Night of Knives. For the most part, the Talons who survived the purges are scattered and isolated. What Korbolo Dom has control of is most likely one of the fractured remnants of Dancer's organization which he used as a base for creating his own cadre of assassins. Its of no suprise that they're hell-bent on revenge against Laseen.
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Mar 31, 2011 20:18
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Illuyankas posted:Korbolo Dom just made up his own assassin organisation and called them Talons. They're not connected to the originals, and Cotillion probably doesn't give a poo poo what they do. This. KB isn't the Talon Master - he just created an assassin organization and gave himself that title. Aside from not being connected to the originals, I'm pretty sure Kalam comments to himself at one point in DG or maybe MOI - in any case, while he was blowing through the Whirlwind camp taking them out by scores - about how they're also nowhere near as good as the real thing. Edit: the periodic fable posted:are you sure he actually called them the Talon? i seem to remember they were called something else but i might be mistaken.  over it. So I don't think there's evidence of any connection whatsoever, but he did use the name.Also, the whole 'Is Tavore the Talon Master?' bit hadn't occurred to me before, but would make some sense - especially as she had Baudin, an admitted Talon, shadow Felisin when she was shipped off to the mines. Habibi fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Mar 31, 2011 |
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Mar 31, 2011 20:20
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well i'm pretty sure we've established that the new assassins are unrelated to the original Talons unless somebody comes up with a line in the books to the opposite. edit: the above is a response to Boogle Habibi posted:99% sure. I'm also pretty sure Kalam gives a huge i realised the source of my confusion now, RotCG/HoC/whateveri was getting Korbolo Dom's Talon mixed up with the Black Glove mentioned in RotCG who operate inside the Claw and allowed Mallick Rel to take over control of the Claw from Laseen. Opal fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Mar 31, 2011 |
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Mar 31, 2011 20:21
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the periodic fable posted:i realised the source of my confusion now, RotCG/HoC/whateveri was getting Korbolo Dom's Talon mixed up with the Black Glove mentioned in RotCG who operate inside the Claw and allowed Mallick Rel to take over control of the Claw from Laseen. Pshh...ICE, , am I right?
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Mar 31, 2011 20:44
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the periodic fable posted:well i'm pretty sure we've established that the new assassins are unrelated to the original Talons unless somebody comes up with a line in the books to the opposite. House of Chains, Chapt.25, pp.929 (paperback edition): Approaching a well-trod avenue between huts, he caught a flash of movement, darting from left to right across the aisle. Kalam dropped lower and froze. A second figure followed, then a third, fourth and fifth. A hand. Now, who in this camp would organize their assassins into hands? He waited another half-dozen heartbeats, then set off. He came opposite the route the killers had taken and slipped into their wake. The five were moving at seven paces apart, two paces more than would a Claw. drat, did Cotillion suspect? Is this what he wanted me to confirm? These are Talons.
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Mar 31, 2011 20:56
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Boogle posted:House of Chains, Chapt.25, pp.929 (paperback edition): Which doesn't necessarily prove any connection to the original organization - only that they're trying to [poorly] emulate their tactics.
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Mar 31, 2011 21:18
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Habibi posted:Pshh...ICE, not sure how to take this 
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Mar 31, 2011 21:22
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the periodic fable posted:not sure how to take this Just poking fun at the fact that it was, of all things, an Esselmont story element that lead to the confusion. 
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Mar 31, 2011 21:36
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This is kind of off topic but I've been playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood on PC lately and it occurred to me that it would be the perfect game engine for a Gardens of the Moon videogame. Imagine running and climbing across the rooftops of Darujhistan as Rallick Nom, Kalam, and Crokus, doing thief and assassin missions with a variety of weapons and magic. You could help the Bridgeburners distract the guards while they do 'road work'. You could play pickpocketing minigames with Kruppe. Fight off Tiste Andii mages with Quick Ben. Someone send the Assassin's Creed devs this book please!
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Apr 1, 2011 00:48
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Turpitude posted:This is kind of off topic but I've been playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood on PC lately and it occurred to me that it would be the perfect game engine for a Gardens of the Moon videogame. Yeah but when you are finally the most badass person in the city and about to ascend Karsa would just show up and crush your whole civilization.
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Apr 1, 2011 01:16
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Here's my condensed take on ICE: I think we all agree that Night of Knives is bad. For completionists only. Return of the Crimson Guard is almost as good as Gardens of the Moon. The beginning can be a slog but I'd say the payoff is worth it. Stonewielder is better than GotM but not as good as Erikson's other books. As long as you don't go into it expecting an answer to every question and a connection to everything in Erikson's books you will enjoy it. Plus, it has Manask, and you wouldn't want to miss him, would you?
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Apr 1, 2011 01:42
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Night of Knives was good for Temper and the little bits of Tayschrenn that we got, but yeah the Kiska parts were just no good.
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Apr 1, 2011 06:24
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Finished TCG, my feelings on the book and the series in retrospect: - TCG was a bloated mess. I had trouble getting invested in any of the big finales because I was so busy keeping track of all 87 billion characters he's threaded into the plot by now (not to mention all the NEW ONES - Tiste Liosan, etc). Erikson seems to be a gifted writer in some aspects but his editorial side is completely out of control and he needs somebody that can call him on his poo poo. I honestly couldn't give a gently caress about over half of the characters in TCG (why am I expected to remember 47 different marines all with their own backstories) and it undermines the resonance of his major plot points. Compared to the emotional punch of Deadhouse Gates, MoI, and some of the other major deaths, I just wasn't feeling it anymore. It seems to me like he was at his best early when he had a (relatively, at least) more limited set of characters and his best books have really focused on just a few. Contrast that to TCG, where your arguably "main character", Tavore, never has a single point of view sentence. Ganoes shows up again but has been gone so long I have trouble caring anymore, zombie Whiskeyjack gets a nice followup SEVEN BOOKS LATER, the main antagonist-turned-Jesus figure gets about 5 minutes of screen time before being assassinated and the only real likeable characters, Gesler and Stormy, did all their character development multiple books ago so they just sort of go out in a blaze of glory. I contrast that with how awful I felt when Coltaine died in front of the locked gates of Aren, or Whiskeyjack's death, or Tavore killing her sister unknowingly, or Trull's death.. and it just feels weak, like a neat wrapping up storylines meant to carry great weight but robbed of that by the constant distraction of a million side characters. Erikson hit a home run with those few scenarios and characters - Coltaine/Chain of Dogs, Tavore and Felisin, Trull, Tehol/Bugg, etc.. but his overarching finish just left me feeling detached. He's so busy being comprehensive that he loses sight of really making you care about and relate to a few primary characters. I just know I could never give this series to anyone that is not an absolute, diehard fantasy reader and even then it's iffy. I read a lot, I've read all the books and looked up misc stuff about them online, and I still had trouble keeping track of who was who in the last book. It's just not accessible and unfortunately a lot of the cool stuff he brings to the genre gets lost in the loving maze of his character list. Wish he'd focus a bit more. icking fudiot fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Apr 1, 2011 |
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Apr 1, 2011 07:56
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Habibi posted:This. KB isn't the Talon Master - he just created an assassin organization and gave himself that title. Aside from not being connected to the originals, I'm pretty sure Kalam comments to himself at one point in DG or maybe MOI - in any case, while he was blowing through the Whirlwind camp taking them out by scores - about how they're also nowhere near as good as the real thing. So all of this is well and good, but I'm not sure that the chronology checks out - even accounting for High Denul making people age extremely slowly. Recall that: We're first introduced to Ganoes in a prologue scene where the Claw are cleaning out the slums for {effective heresy; I think it had something to do with unlicensed warren use but it's been forever since I've read it}; Surly has just recently started calling herself Laseen and Ganoes is acting like a little shitheel ignoring Whiskeyjack's advice to keep his head down. Presumably, this is not too long before KoN takes place; Kellanved is still in charge but the shenanigans are on their way. Unless Tavore is a much, much older sister than we have any reason to belive from the rest of the series, it doesn't make sense that she'd have been handed the leadership of The Talon. Does it?
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Apr 1, 2011 07:58
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icking fudiot posted:Finished TCG, i agree with this completely. i loved the series and even the book but this is the post i wanted to make when i finished it but i couldn't put it into words properly. i think the immense size of his canvas eventually caught up with him. in my opinion it started in Lether actually, even though i loved a lot of those plot threads.
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Apr 1, 2011 10:41
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icking fudiot posted:Finished TCG, my feelings on the book and the series in retrospect: This is how I felt, more or less. Don't get me wrong, I loved the series, but I had just finished The First Law when I got The Crippled God and it just seemed so bloated and the characters so lifeless due to their sheer number in comparison. Even the major characters of Erikson aren't exactly characterized real well. People mention Whiskeyjack or some others as their favorite character but they really didn't get enough face time to create any sort of resonance. I got the feeling Erikson assumed we cared a lot more about his characters than we actually did.
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Apr 1, 2011 12:53
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quote:i think the immense size of his canvas eventually caught up with him I loved the series and thought the TCG was more or less the best way he could have possibly ended it. That being said I fully agree with the size of canvas comment. He really needed to stop introducing so many new characters awhile ago, as in 2+ books ago. It's a bit strange that the Nah'ruk are foreshadowed so well but the rest of the antagonists are kind of thrown together. We also could have lived without a lot of the POVs, Deadsmell and company have several ones over the course of 3 books that could have been edited out for example. There were also some loosely tied together parts that felt like they got gutted by the editor yet more inconsequential stuff was left in. I hope in the future his editor puts him on a leash and makes him flesh out characters more. I'd rather have half of the cast and get more back story as opposed to 1000 small POVs. I liked re-reading to catch foreshadowing and whatnot but had to do a fair bit just to remember who was who after awhile. The smaller scope of the first three books really lets you get into the characters more, I think the sheer number of ones in later books just kind of dilutes everything.
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Apr 1, 2011 15:37
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So I caught this last night on my second re-read of Deadhouse Gates. "Jhistal priest." I get that they're supposed to be a destrier of an Old God? but I don't really get why Duiker seems so stoked to get a chance to get his hands around the throat of Mallick Rel, the priest of Mael who helped/pushed Pormqual into locking the gates on Coltaine. What's the background for this? Do we ever find out why he seems to hate them so much?Ccs posted:That's good to hear. I'll definitely be checking out the next book.
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Apr 1, 2011 16:26
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coyo7e posted:So I caught this last night on my second re-read of Deadhouse Gates. "Jhistal priest." I get that they're supposed to be a destrier of an Old God? but I don't really get why Duiker seems so stoked to get a chance to get his hands around the throat of Mallick Rel, the priest of Mael who helped/pushed Pormqual into locking the gates on Coltaine.
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Apr 1, 2011 17:38
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Interesting note about Jhistals (I think this is from DoD but I could be mistaken): Jhistal is the First Empire name for the god of the sea. The Tiste Edur name for that god, which translates to Bloodmane, is Mael. Kind of funny that he's always referred to by that name... I mostly agree with the negative comments about the overall scope of the series. There are such powerful, fully-built-up, emotional climaxes in books 2 and 3 that the climax of TCG seems a bit flat by comparison. I felt that the overall Crippled God arc worked out fine, but the Liosan, Forkrul Assail and Kolansii were not developed nearly enough to be the opponents that the finale needed, and as a result many of the battle scenes lacked the intensity of others earlier in the series. I think my largest criticism of the Malazan series as a whole is that it seems as though Erikson and ICE felt the need to include as much of their source material as possible when they could have done a better job with less.
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Apr 1, 2011 23:07
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Juaguocio posted:Interesting note about Jhistals (I think this is from DoD but I could be mistaken): Jhistal is the First Empire name for the god of the sea. The Tiste Edur name for that god, which translates to Bloodmane, is Mael. Kind of funny that he's always referred to by that name... I think this is wrong, regarding what a Jhistal is. A Jhistal priest is the title of a priest performing blood sacrifices, and could apply to any (elder) god that wants blood for sacrifice
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Apr 1, 2011 23:20
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Habibi posted:I'm not quite sure what you're asking? The second part of your question answers the first? coyo7e fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 01:02
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zokie posted:I think this is wrong, regarding what a Jhistal is. A Jhistal priest is the title of a priest performing blood sacrifices, and could apply to any (elder) god that wants blood for sacrifice DoD posted:Felash tapped the amber tube against her teeth, thinking. "Why is the sea so thirsty?" coyo7e posted:I guess I was mistaken in thinking that he just had a thing against jhistal and that there was some back-story to it. And also, how was Duiker aware of the priest being a jhistal and/or the priest's intention to sacrifice the entire army, in essence? Hmm.
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Apr 2, 2011 02:21
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Just finished the TCG, a solid ending to the series. It felt a bit rushed in parts, wrapping up so many loose ends, but the characters that mattered shone through. Inevitably, some questions. Did Trull make an appearance? Byrs meets an Edur warrior in his dreams, who may or not be a Guardian. Now he knows Rhulad and Fear, I think, so is it Trull? Kalam also asks Minala to tell him about the warrior with the spear, when talk about QB facing down Icarium, and the conversation occurs in and around when Brys has the dream. I remember in one of the earlier books that Trull is listed as Knight of Shadow, but Shadowthrone or Cotillion never discuss him. What was Sinn? Does she represent a new type of magic, that comes from the individual rather than drawing on Krul's blood? She reminds me of Beak. Both drew on their own suffering to fuel their magic. I didn't feel that Sinn's story was well closed off but hopefully will be addressed in another book. What kind of Goddess is Burn? Is she the earth itself, or a Goddess holding it together? I'm also unsure of QB's connection to her.
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Apr 2, 2011 14:13
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adamarama posted:Just finished the TCG, a solid ending to the series. It felt a bit rushed in parts, wrapping up so many loose ends, but the characters that mattered shone through. Inevitably, some questions. Yeah, I was under the impression that it was Trull. He's dead in the real world, but at that point he's in Kruppe's dream, right? Actually, I've already forgotten the exact details, but I do remember thinking that he was referencing Trull.
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Apr 2, 2011 19:31
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A Nice Boy posted:Yeah, I was under the impression that it was Trull. He's dead in the real world, but at that point he's in Kruppe's dream, right? Actually, I've already forgotten the exact details, but I do remember thinking that he was referencing Trull. It could also bethe Edur that gets sacrificed by Hannan Mosag who then travels the ocean floor and talks to Knuckles and Kilimandaros.
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Apr 2, 2011 22:17
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A quick reassurance that I have this correct in my head and a little help. I am currently 3/4 the way through, Book Four: House of Chains. The historian Durke (sp?), Fiddler, and Strings are all the same person. I know he died, then became Strings from Coltrains glass vial. What I don't get ios why his squad said, "We know who you are, Fiddler." ????? Confused like woah.
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Apr 2, 2011 22:24
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1554 posted:A quick reassurance that I have this correct in my head and a little help. I am currently 3/4 the way through, Book Four: House of Chains. You are wrong, Duiker is not the same person as Fiddler/Strings. He is someone else. Fiddler takes the name Strings when re-enlisting.
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Apr 2, 2011 22:26
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1554 posted:A quick reassurance that I have this correct in my head and a little help. I am currently 3/4 the way through, Book Four: House of Chains. Fiddler never died. You're confusing a few different characters here, and I'm honestly not sure which ones. TheBeardedCrazy posted:It could also bethe Edur that gets sacrificed by Hannan Mosag who then travels the ocean floor and talks to Knuckles and Kilimandaros. This. It's Bruthen Trana, who we last saw trying to find his way back to Killy and Setch's Azath house in RG.
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Apr 2, 2011 23:52
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