|
Crisco Kid posted:Original fiction isn't inherently better, we just never have to see the thousand godawful rejected manuscripts, only the professionally-edited winners. If you took a random sampling of unpublished stories you found on the internet, I suspect the average quality of original works would be significantly higher than the fanfics. Fanfiction is bad because it's so easy to write. Someone else has already created the universe and most of the characters, so all that's left is to decide who your Mary Sue saves the Enterprise crew from and who has sex with whom. This is why it appeals to beginners, children, people with no creative talent and people who like raunchy tales starring Sonic the Hedgehog.
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 14:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 12:07 |
|
|
I don't mean the effort put into it - writing anything decent is hard, and writing good original fiction is incredibly difficult - but I feel like execution is more important to quality than the idea. A good concept won't save a bad writer, but a great writer can save almost any idea regardless of where it came from, so I hesitate to dismiss something based on who invented the universe. But I think a lot of fanfic's popularity stems from accessibility to the audience as much as the writer. Because original work is so hard to write well, a lot of authors fail at creating engaging characters and worlds; in fanfic the audience knows they're already attached to the characters, and it's easier to invest in the story. Fanfiction's always going to be around, so I find it better to have a sense of humor about the whole thing. It can be amusing or terrible, but it's not worth getting worked up about either way - including the rabid fans who take it way too seriously. Ironically, the angriest I ever saw somebody get about the entire concept of fanfiction was on a comics forum. Think about that for a second...
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 17:20
|
|
|
Paragon8 posted:The 1% of fan fiction that is legitimately good is probably a waste of talent that could be better served generating original content. Well, that--or, it occurs to me that many of the legitimately talented fan-fic writers could conceivably break into the scriptwriting business, particularly for television. They're always looking for good writers (especially those who can stick to the proper screenwriting format) who understand and genuinely care about preexisting characters. I can appreciate fan-fictions that either parody the original stories, or approach them from a genuinely new and different angle. 98% of fan-fictions, however, appear to revolve solely around "insertion"--of one type, or another. Tartarus Sauce fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Apr 9, 2011 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 18:11
|
|
|
I think fanfiction can be a good workout/starting point for writing your own original fiction. George Lucas read the works of Campbell and Frank Herbert's Dune, then wrote a script that was basically "Dune meets heroes' journey," then the script evolved into the Star Wars we all know and love. 40K fanfiction is a whole different category, because it's an entire industry with many different authors, and 40k is such an over-the-top blatant rip off/pastiche of everything else that it takes a life of its own. 40k itself is a form of fanfiction if you think of it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 21:16
|
|
|
THE HORSES rear end posted:I think fanfiction can be a good workout/starting point for writing your own original fiction. George Lucas read the works of Campbell and Frank Herbert's Dune, then wrote a script that was basically "Dune meets heroes' journey," then the script evolved into the Star Wars we all know and love. but I think the problem with that show the internet is - is that someone writing a fanfic will get infinitely more attention than someone pushing boundaries with writing original fiction and that would encourage you to keep going to the fanfiction well rather than strike out for originality. It's tempting for a lot of people to be safe. It's a hard break going from hundreds of "omg so awesome" comments on an average piece of fiction where Harry and Ron team up to save Obama than getting harshly criticized and forced to grow as a writer by actually soliciting opinions from people who care about the craft of writing. Don't get me wrong I'm not a rabid anti-fanfiction zealot. I'm just interested in how it exists in our framework of reading and writing. Our culture is really dependent on retreads and revisting concepts which I find interesting. Look at the amount of sequels and near copies that come out in movies, tv, and books. Not to mention you have something like the comic industry where they've been retreading stories and using the same characters and settings for decades with hundreds of different stories by dozens of different authors. I think the key difference with something like that is that that kind of property is knowingly shared by the creator/owner of that IP - overwhelmingly however authors frown upon fan fiction and are a little disturbed by it. I can't imagine the revulsion JK Rowling feels or would feel if she discovered how many pages there are written about Draco and Harry loving. I think this is a really interesting debate and might be suited to a new thread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 23:27
|
|
|
Paragon8 posted:but I think the problem with that show the internet is - is that someone writing a fanfic will get infinitely more attention than someone pushing boundaries with writing original fiction and that would encourage you to keep going to the fanfiction well rather than strike out for originality. It's tempting for a lot of people to be safe. I heard once that not only does she encourage fanfiction, she reads some of it occasionally. Not like we would read it though, its probably more just curiosity over what people are doing with her characters than wanting to know how many chapters it takes for Harry and Draco to gently caress. She's not the only IP holder to do so either, Joss Whedon loves and encourages fanfiction for all his IPs. THE HORSES rear end posted:I think fanfiction can be a good workout/starting point for writing your own original fiction. George Lucas read the works of Campbell and Frank Herbert's Dune, then wrote a script that was basically "Dune meets heroes' journey," then the script evolved into the Star Wars we all know and love. The first draft of Star Wars was actually an almost direct copy of The Hidden Fortress by Kurosawa, and then it evolved into what we know over 4 drafts because he knew he couldn't get the rights to remake it. Dune may have influenced Star Wars some what, but it was more influenced by Kurosawa and various comics and serials like Flash Gordon. Check out the Secret History of Star Wars for the full story.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2011 05:41
|
|
|
coffin posted:How does this awful mess have such a following?! How can anyone say that it's better than the actual Harry Potter? edit: I definitely see why the typical self-loathing nerd-culture-cringing goons would hate it though. In fact, this is probably the one place on the internet where it would get the most hate (but a fair few fans too). ShardPhoenix fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Apr 10, 2011 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2011 10:33
|
|
|
Due to that The Aurors trailer, I believe I would really like to see a CSI Gordrics Hollow. The Death Eaters can be some drug cartel / gang and James Potter was a Cool Politician who was gonna fight them so Voldemort had the family killed off but hey Harry survived somehow and grew up and became a detective. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2011 14:42
|
|
|
ShardPhoenix posted:It is better. I tried to reread Deathly Hallows recently and it was so poorly written I couldn't even get past chapter one. MoR on the other hand is one of the best things I've ever read (although it's certainly not perfect). No, I'm sorry but the Methods of Rationality fanfic is terrible borderline sociopathic wish fulfillment fantasy. I'm really sorry that you think it's the best thing you've ever read. Saying that only "typical self-loathing nerd-culture-cringing goons" would hate it is an odd way to deflect any criticism. I don't hate it at all, I just think it's awful. It's not because people don't like "nerd culture" or that they're "self loathing" it's that it is loving terrible. You have 11 year olds talking about hypothetical rape in a theoretical conversation that really really didn't need to use rape as a hypothetical. You have established characters that are similar in name only - why bother using them if they're essentially different characters with the same name? Why make Quirrel into some super wizard battle tactician or Dumbledore into a sputtering retard. It's basic stuff like this that makes it poorly written and bizarrely conceptualized. It's not that the idea of logic and rationality are "too real" or "too nerdy"
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2011 15:12
|
|
|
Rationality is hilariously bad if Rational!Harry is meant to be any sort of a positive character. The only part I really enjoyed was when he completely misread Snape's connection to his parents and got smacked down. Having a character be clever and pull of something often is alright if he isn't doing it all the time. R!Harry wins basically all the time. If he actually fumbled more often it would be a lot more interesting to read. As it stands, this Harry is just another bad Mary Sue written in an especially clever way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2011 16:21
|
|
|
Paragon8 posted:
Gunnerkrigg Court. Check it out! It's excellent.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2011 18:35
|
|
|
ShardPhoenix posted:edit: I definitely see why the typical self-loathing nerd-culture-cringing goons would hate it though. In fact, this is probably the one place on the internet where it would get the most hate (but a fair few fans too). Nothing screams "rationality" quite like confirmation bias 
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 01:41
|
|
|
ShardPhoenix posted:It is better. I tried to reread Deathly Hallows recently and it was so poorly written I couldn't even get past chapter one. MoR on the other hand is one of the best things I've ever read (although it's certainly not perfect). I can't believe a Harry Potter fanfiction written by and for sufferers of Asperger's Syndrome is one of the best things you've ever read. In your home town, at the school you attended as a child, your English teacher feels a sudden wave of sadness wash over them, and slumps at their desk crying even though they don't know why. Also a puppy dies.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 02:22
|
|
|
ShardPhoenix posted:It is better. I tried to reread Deathly Hallows recently and it was so poorly written I couldn't even get past chapter one. MoR on the other hand is one of the best things I've ever read (although it's certainly not perfect). Holy poo poo, are you serious? You need to read more.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 02:37
|
|
|
ShardPhoenix posted:It is better. I tried to reread Deathly Hallows recently and it was so poorly written I couldn't even get past chapter one. MoR on the other hand is one of the best things I've ever read (although it's certainly not perfect).
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 03:18
|
|
|
Look if you like MoR at least read something like Artemis Fowl. I mean I can't stand either but I think it's for the same reasons.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 03:20
|
|
|
zachol posted:Look if you like MoR at least read something like Artemis Fowl.  iness was part of his character and something that he learns not to do over the course of the series. MoR is just spergy because the author is.MoR really bugs me, it's depressing that anyone would call it anything other than tripe, much less "one of the best things I've ever read." Harry Potter magic works because it's magic, trying to dissect it any more is pointless and stupid. Really, if you're the kind of person who would ever write, MoR posted:"You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat! You violated Conservation of Energy! That's not just an arbitrary rule, it's implied by the form of the quantum Hamiltonian! Rejecting it destroys unitarity and then you get FTL signaling! And cats are COMPLICATED! A human mind can't just visualize a whole cat's anatomy and, and all the cat biochemistry, and what about the neurology? How can you go on thinking using a cat-sized brain?"
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 04:37
|
|
|
WeaponGradeSadness posted:Whoa, now. Artemis Fowl's Yeah I'll admit I just read the first one. Something about it really rubbed me the wrong way. Actually almost everything. Although near the end it felt better so maybe the next books are better.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 04:49
|
|
|
MOR posted:"You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat! You violated Conservation of Energy! That's not just an arbitrary rule, it's implied by the form of the quantum Hamiltonian! Rejecting it destroys unitarity and then you get FTL signaling! And cats are COMPLICATED! A human mind can't just visualize a whole cat's anatomy and, and all the cat biochemistry, and what about the neurology? How can you go on thinking using a cat-sized brain?" Hah, I thought this bit was hilarious. The idea of someone walking around the Harry Potter world constantly freaking out over how impossible everything is and how no-one even cares or question it is pretty funny. Or would be for, you know, the 5 minutes until the joke got old. Then I realised it wasn't a comedy and the dude had written an entire book taking this character entirely, painfully seriously.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 13:25
|
|
|
Melche posted:Hah, I thought this bit was hilarious. The idea of someone walking around the Harry Potter world constantly freaking out over how impossible everything is and how no-one even cares or question it is pretty funny. Or would be for, you know, the 5 minutes until the joke got old. Then I realised it wasn't a comedy and the dude had written an entire book taking this character entirely, painfully seriously.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 13:31
|
|
|
You see, when turning into a cat your extra mass is transferred into Z-Space and...
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 19:14
|
|
|
Would also explain apparation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 21:35
|
|
|
Does MoR Harry even struggle or grow as a person in the story? I couldn't get through the first chapter, but it seemed like he was already a perfect person at the age of 10. Where could you possibly take the story from there and make it at all interesting? ShardPhoenix, why on Earth do you like that fic?
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2011 23:17
|
|
|
I went into Methods of Rationality (a few months ago, haven't read since then) expecting just to see what would happen if Harry Potter applied rationality to the wizarding world. So I enjoyed the bits about the 'transfiguring a part of a thing', and on disproving blood purity, and on money conversions. I didn't actually care about the plot so much, and found the sociopathy and 'badass Quirrel' kind of silly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 10:55
|
|
|
Methods of Rationality posted:"You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat! You violated Conservation of Energy! That's not just an arbitrary rule, it's implied by the form of the quantum Hamiltonian! Rejecting it destroys unitarity and then you get FTL signaling! And cats are COMPLICATED! A human mind can't just visualize a whole cat's anatomy and, and all the cat biochemistry, and what about the neurology? How can you go on thinking using a cat-sized brain?" lol, 'Good' Harry Potter fanfic. Edit: Not to mention that turning into a cat doesn't necessarily violate conservation of energy (though turning from a cat into a human would), that he assumes magic would involve some kind of counterfactual representation, and that the word he's looking for is 'neurobiology', not neurology Also, to put my hat on, what always bothered ME about animagi is that the minds and brains of animals lack the cognitive abilities required to understand 1) that they were once human, 2) that they can do magic, and 3) that they could turn back into a human being. When you become a cat, you're stuck with a cat mind, and cats are retarded.
reflir fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Apr 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 10:56
|
|
|
reflir posted:Also, to put my I actually rather liked how The Magicians dealt with this issue, by having people barely retain their thoughts, selves, and memories.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 15:58
|
|
|
Tartarus Sauce posted:I actually rather liked how The Magicians dealt with this issue, by having people barely retain their thoughts, selves, and memories. Until the completely gratuitous fox loving maybe.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 16:40
|
|
|
The whole point of magic is that you can't apply the rules of science to it. Maybe you can apply a "scientific method" of sorts, but even then it's not the same. Dean Fogg was right. Magic is not science. It is a craft.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 16:50
|
|
|
MrFlibble posted:Until the completely gratuitous fox loving maybe. That was pretty rapey. WTF was up with turning into geese, of all things, and not turns or gulls or something like that?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 17:06
|
|
|
Arnold of Soissons posted:That was pretty rapey. Because Geese can fly long distances.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 17:19
|
|
|
Arnold of Soissons posted:WTF was up with turning into geese, of all things, and not turns or gulls or something like that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_in_the_Stone At least, I always assumed that's what it referenced.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 17:58
|
|
|
reflir posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_in_the_Stone That makes sense, then. Totally missed that allusion. blue squares: my point was that lots of birds migrate much further than geese. arctic turns do the same migration the kids did, except they start out in Alaska, Iceland or northern Canada instead of (comparatively) way down south in New York state.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 19:14
|
|
|
THE HORSES rear end posted:Dean Fogg was right. Magic is not science. It is a craft. Well seeing as how Magic is basically the rewriting of physics and science in general because you feel like it (oh hey this broom can ~FLY~ because I said so, this magic wand can instantly combust air and shoot out the hottest of flames because it has part of a feather of a bird that's magic in it, etc) I really don't get how people ever try and wonder how magic fits into science, or even better try and argue that it can't possibly and that's why JK Rowling is literally wrong by writing Harry Potter.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 20:57
|
|
|
My big Harry Potter sperg is more with logistics than anything sciency.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 21:12
|
|
|
Rowling's problem is that she doesn't have redshirts. In the first book you get the idea that there are a lot of people at Hogwarts and that Ron, Harry, Seamus, Dean and Neville are just some of the gryffindor boys in Harry's year, and that, say, professor McGonagall is just one of the transfiguration teachers. Then later it turns out that this is not the case and that the people 'in focus' are the only people fulfilling that role, creating ridiculous scenarios of ten kids per house per class (so 10 * 4 * 7 = 280 total) on the one hand and Hogwarts feeling as if it should have about 'a thousand' students on the other. The same goes for the Ministry of Magic. A ministry of that size should serve way more than 30,000 people. I live in a city of 200,000 people and our city hall isn't even a tenth the size of the MoM.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 21:17
|
|
|
And my sperg is all about how even good wizards see Muggles as animals that need to be protected from wizards and magic, the poor dears!
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 21:20
|
|
|
reflir posted:Rowling's problem is that she doesn't have redshirts. In the first book you get the idea that there are a lot of people at Hogwarts and that Ron, Harry, Seamus, Dean and Neville are just some of the gryffindor boys in Harry's year, and that, say, professor McGonagall is just one of the transfiguration teachers. Then later it turns out that this is not the case and that the people 'in focus' are the only people fulfilling that role, creating ridiculous scenarios of ten kids per house per class (so 10 * 4 * 7 = 280 total) on the one hand and Hogwarts feeling as if it should have about 'a thousand' students on the other. Yeah, you get the impression that the only jobs after Hogwarts are in the magical service industry or the MoM bureaucracy. I think Rowling's number of 100,000 spectators at the Quidditch world cup threw a lot of things off as well.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 21:28
|
|
|
Since we're talking about our personal spergs, that one spell at the beginning of Deathly Hallows that just makes something explode always bothered me. Where was that every other time they needed to fight someone? "Oh no! Death Eaters are attacking the Quidditch World Cup!" KABOOM problem solved. "Trooooooll in the dungeeeeeeoooooon!" BLAM not anymore. I guess it's similar to the "why don't they use guns" argument except the whole hating-everything-Muggle explanation doesn't work. It's not a Forbidden Curse, either, so...
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 21:54
|
|
|
You're going to have to be more specific, as I can't tell what you're referring to. The usual 'blow poo poo up' spell is 'reducto', which Harry uses as early as GoF, but has been ruleslawyered to not work on animate matter (ie people). Sometimes regular spells become explosive too, when it adds drama to the narrative.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 21:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 12:07 |
|
|
reflir posted:You're going to have to be more specific, as I can't tell what you're referring to. The usual 'blow poo poo up' spell is 'reducto', which Harry uses as early as GoF, but has been ruleslawyered to not work on animate matter (ie people). Of course, not being a MoR-level sperg, I understand they didn't do that because it's a YA/childrens' series so you can't have the hero murdering a bunch of dudes with explosions. It's just something that stood out to me when it was used in DH. edit: can not. You can not have the hero do those things. I type good 
Punished Chuck fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 22:25
|
|