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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Not really. Mythology still has some basis in fact and is important as a cultural outlet. The Iliad depicts a historical war between two real places at its heart, even if it uses mythical elements to do so, and also depicts the way people of Classical Greece lived. The Malazan world is complete fiction, and I think that is the line between 'fantasy' and 'epic poem.' I'm not saying I disagree with you, but where would you put Rime of the Ancient Mariner? I don't see 'a line between fantasy and epic poem' there at all  Also, 'important as a cultural outlet' could easily apply to a lot of sci-fi and fantasy, for instance Margaret Atwood and Kurt Vonnegut. I don't meant to derail the thread, I just find this discussion very interesting!
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Apr 10, 2011 15:05
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Mythology is fantasy that's really old. If someone wrote Jane Eyre today we wouldn't call the work genius we'd call it terrible. The social and literary context contemporary to the writing of a work is important in evaluating it.
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Apr 10, 2011 19:28
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Sil posted:If someone wrote Jane Eyre today we wouldn't call the work genius we'd call it terrible. It's still terrible.
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Apr 10, 2011 20:39
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bigmcgaffney posted:It's still terrible. Only if you have no appreciation for its contribution to feminism and as a harsh criticism of the rigid class structure of the 19th century.
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Apr 10, 2011 20:56
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Only if you have no appreciation for its contribution to feminism and as a harsh criticism of the rigid class structure of the 19th century. Or if you haven't read Middlemarch.
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Apr 10, 2011 21:22
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Self-insert characters aren't exactly groundbreaking in the fantasy genre. The meta-narrative he refers to is mostly thematic. So himself as a character is just a small aspect (and there are more than one meta-character). Juaguocio posted:but there are also parts that are clearly taken straight from the author's GURPS campaigns, with no subtext beyond "here's some cool fantasy stuff." Actually pretty much everything he does has subtext. Especially tropes of Fantasy or of RPGs are used to turn them on their head.
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Apr 10, 2011 23:28
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Only if you have no appreciation for its contribution to feminism and as a harsh criticism of the rigid class structure of the 19th century. Well, you hit the nail on the head. I gave zero fucks about either of these things when I was a 13 year old boy entering high school and had to read Jane Eyre. Although, I still don't. I admit that.
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Apr 11, 2011 01:05
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Although I probably should post here since I haven't finished the series, I finished Dust of Dreams last night and I thought the battle of the Sky Keeps at the end was one of the coolest things I've ever read in fiction.
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Apr 11, 2011 04:45
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Abalieno posted:The meta-narrative he refers to is mostly thematic. So himself as a character is just a small aspect (and there are more than one meta-character). Honestly, I never got that. Where's the line between self-insert character and 'meta' then in fantasy? Is it just a well-done self-insert character, as I'll admit Shadowthrone and Cotillion are? It seems like Erikson and certain readers want to ascribe some sort of literary value to the Malazan series when it's simply a good, really long fantasy series. There's really not much I'd consider even vaguely postmodern about it.
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Apr 11, 2011 07:32
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Then the problem seems to be about you putting a genre not in the same league of what you consider "literature". Your definitions are as arbitrary as everyone's else.
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Apr 11, 2011 11:51
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Abalieno posted:Then the problem seems to be about you putting a genre not in the same league of what you consider "literature". That's fair, because I think fantasy isn't very literary. But if you're going to somehow argue that ST+C make Malazan 'meta' and thus 'postmodern fantasy,' didn't Dragonlance and Death Gate do that with Fizban/Zifnab 20 years prior? Like I said, it's not exactly groundbreaking stuff.
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Apr 11, 2011 12:26
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Even Karsa was a roleplayed character, but it hasn't anything "meta" about it. As I said the meta-narrative is not limited to two RPG characters, but it is thematic, about structure, use of point of view and so on. It's done on multiple levels and has a number of layers. Cotillion and Shadowthrone are not meta-characters because they were roleplayed, but because of how they are positioned in respect to the series' structure.
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Apr 11, 2011 12:41
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I like the part where that guy turns into a dragon and eats people.
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Apr 11, 2011 16:58
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Junk Science posted:I like the part where that guy turns into a dragon and eats people. To a dragon, pretty much anyone is
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Apr 11, 2011 23:01
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I"m a little over a quarter of the way through book 1 and am still lost. When do things start to get more clear?
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Apr 12, 2011 08:56
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approx. at book six or seven?
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Apr 12, 2011 09:33
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the periodic fable posted:approx. at book six or seven? Don't lie to him. Things become clear in about 8 years time, after we've read the prequel and sequel trilogies, the ICE saga and the Encyclopedia Malazanica.
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Apr 12, 2011 11:15
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Synesthesian Fetish posted:I"m a little over a quarter of the way through book 1 and am still lost. When do things start to get more clear? After the first scene in Darujhistan you'll probably start to figure out things.
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Apr 12, 2011 12:32
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So I was up at like 4am the other night trying to finish Memories of Ice and came across something with Toc the Younger. Togtha the Wolf of Winter. Toc the.. Tocthe? It's probably a fluke but that's the kind of connections you make at 4 in the morning, I guess. Also holy poo poo do things make so much more sense, and minor details really jump out at you after the second or third read of these books. MoI is probably my favorite Malazan novel overall, although Paran's QQing gets a bit tiresome. Also, I noticed in MoI that there was some insinuation that Quick Ben might be a god. It was a small thing but it struck me when I came across it, due to the QB conversation and questions in this thread. Synesthesian Fetish posted:I"m a little over a quarter of the way through book 1 and am still lost. When do things start to get more clear? HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Self-insert characters aren't exactly groundbreaking in the fantasy genre. Abalieno posted:Even Karsa was a roleplayed character, but it hasn't anything "meta" about it. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Apr 12, 2011 |
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Apr 12, 2011 14:51
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coyo7e posted:And I'm sure that, say, Samuel Clemens never had any self-insertion in his novels, either..? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Self-insert has been a staple of storytelling since the beginning of time. Abalieno posted:As I said the meta-narrative is not limited to two RPG characters, but it is thematic, about structure, use of point of view and so on. It's done on multiple levels and has a number of layers. Could you explain this more? I don't really see this at all.
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Apr 12, 2011 15:04
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quote:So I was up at like 4am the other night trying to finish Memories of Ice and came across something with Toc the Younger. Togtha the Wolf of Winter. Toc the.. Tocthe? It's probably a fluke but that's the kind of connections you make at 4 in the morning, I guess. On a different naming tangent... my girlfriend is trying the series now, she's on Deadhouse Gates. The other night she starts laughing out loud and I asked what was up. She said "Panpotsun Odhan" and giggled. I didn't get it and she said "Pan and Pots Sun". In the other thread we had a mini discussion about how Erikson's naming convention consists of looking around the room he happens to be writing in. Let's just say I'm convinced of that theory now
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Apr 12, 2011 15:56
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Could you explain this more? I don't really see this at all. No, I can't explain  But I'll give another example. His latest novella Crack'd Pot Trail, is done completely as meta-linguistic and meta-narrative. It's a novel about artist, the work of art and relationship with an audience. About artistic integrity, about criticism. And it's done in a vicious way: the artist whose performance doesn't satisfy the committee will be eaten alive and so contribute for the "well-being" of the community. All part of a pilgrimage to the Indifferent God. What Erikson does on the small level of this novella is similar in structure and approach (but not theme) to the larger series.
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Apr 12, 2011 15:58
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Memories of ice trip report: -Tuskful sword: We are walking into a trap, but if we didn't then none of us would get murdered! *dies* -jesus: later. spontaneous soul absorption time because apparently that's what shield anvils do! -kallor: I am clearly evil -toc: Although I almost immediately got captured after not blending in to the fanatics at all, got my awesome magical stuff confiscated, and am now in eternal torment, at least I didn't follow lady envy!!! -steve: oh my god Kruppe yes, give it to me kruppe *prematurely fires bridgeburners at city* -kallor: hey can I run off and murder silverfox now? thanks, brood! -bridgeburners: everyone is ages behind us but instead of waiting we will all suicide because ??? -whiskeyjack: apparently it is a bad idea to have a crippled leg -everyone: where is rake?!? -rake: underwater! ha! Betcha di- oh wait everyone is dead and now I am crashing I enjoyed the book as a whole, but it sometimes feels like character motives and consistency are broken; they act in really weird ways that work for the plot, but just don't make sense if you can't tell the final outcome ahead of time.
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Apr 12, 2011 16:10
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The Gunslinger posted:In the other thread we had a mini discussion about how Erikson's naming convention consists of looking around the room he happens to be writing in. Yeah, I'm burning through the series right now on my kindle for the first time ( I think I'm on book eight, though I've started skimming heavily) and while the books definitely have their strengths, jesus H. jumpingchrist, the n'ames are j'ust f'ucking Gibb'erush. edit: not so much the actual character names as the proper nouns. Every time I see "T'lan Imass" or "Starvald Demelain" what I think is "random syllables are not a fantasy language." Some aren't so bad -for example, tiste edur/andii etc. which clearly have some linguistic structure -- but about half the time he might as well be telling me about the nation of the R'andom Sllyablez people and their warren of AreThose YourFries. It makes me really wince because, yeah, the series has some great strengths, it's just. . .whew. At its best, this series has some great fantasy moments, but at worst . . it's like if Robert Jordan tried to write a Glen Cook novel in China Mieville's voice. None of them are bad writers, but put them all together at once and it can get a little grating sometimes. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Apr 12, 2011 |
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Apr 12, 2011 16:14
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Since you're wondering about "names", this is what Erikson says about them:quote:Not consciously, but a writer always observes and takes mental notes on body language, physical traits, mannerisms, patterns of speech, relationships, and so on. It all feeds into a stew with plenty of flavours. In practical terms, characters generally arrive (for me) as names first; sometimes that name describes something about the character, in a Dickensian fashion; while at other times that name runs counter to the character’s traits. Two examples would be Antsy for a nervous, agitated, paranoid character; and Tiny Chanter, for the biggest and nastiest of the Chanter brothers. Obviously, some characters arrive with names that have no earthly correlation, and there I find that the ones that sound right in my head often do so because they trigger some related (or not-so-related) image or emotion in me. In still other instances, I use names to resonate with historical, earthly personages, though usually when I do that I disguise that resonance so that only I am aware of it. Finally, some names I invent and keep only because I like the look and sound of them.
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Apr 12, 2011 16:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:edit: not so much the actual character names as the proper nouns. Every time I see "T'lan Imass" or "Starvald Demelain" what I think is "random syllables are not a fantasy language." Some aren't so bad -for example, tiste edur/andii etc. which clearly have some linguistic structure -- but about half the time he might as well be telling me about the nation of the R'andom Sllyablez people and their warren of AreThose YourFries. i don't care about "fantasy names" one way or the other but, wasn't it explained that T'lan comes from the word Tellan with the apostrophe added which in their language (and ours) indicates that something is missing? and in the language of the Imass the thing missing symbolised something deeper than just "there's meant to be a few letters here". i might be misremembering completely, though.
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Apr 12, 2011 21:09
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Honestly, I never got that. Where's the line between self-insert character and 'meta' then in fantasy? Is it just a well-done self-insert character, as I'll admit Shadowthrone and Cotillion are? It seems like Erikson and certain readers want to ascribe some sort of literary value to the Malazan series when it's simply a good, really long fantasy series. There's really not much I'd consider even vaguely postmodern about it. I see something like Perdido Street Station by China Mieville to be 'postmodern' fantasy in that the world it takes place is in so very different and strange compared to fantasy we've been subjected to for the past hundred or so years. There's an incredibly weird blend of modernity and fantasy that comes together in a very bizarre, 'decayed' landscape. I think the only reason I call it postmodern is that it almost seems to critique the typical generic fantasy tropes that have come before it.
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Apr 12, 2011 21:39
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the periodic fable posted:i don't care about "fantasy names" one way or the other but, wasn't it explained that T'lan comes from the word Tellan with the apostrophe added which in their language (and ours) indicates that something is missing? and in the language of the Imass the thing missing symbolised something deeper than just "there's meant to be a few letters here". i might be misremembering completely, though. Quoting Erikson again: quote:a general rule for the insertion of glottal stop apostrophes is that, in Imass language, it confers past-tense.
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Apr 12, 2011 21:57
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Abalieno posted:As I said the meta-narrative is not limited to two RPG characters, but it is thematic, about structure, use of point of view and so on. It's done on multiple levels and has a number of layers. When Erikson is able to pull this sort of thing off it can be nothing short of breathtaking (see Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice), but the problem as I see it is that he falls short of achieving that kind of unity more often than not. Hieronymous Alloy pointed out that Erikson's style sometimes feels like a disjointed combination of a number of other authors, and I agree; he simply tries to capture too many different styles, too many different tones, and the result is a mess in many cases. As many reviewers and posters have mentioned, the massive scope of Malazan is its greatest strength and its greatest weakness.
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Apr 12, 2011 22:13
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Abalieno posted:Quoting Erikson again: Yeah, I'm sure he's got a reason for it and it's all explained but on a first read it can be painful to slog through. It ends up coming across more as "here, have a big hefty ladle of Fantasy Language" rather than as a justified narrative choice. Another author I like has stated he tries to never use more than one invented word per sentence, just so you don't get distracted by it, and that's a rule I wish Erikson had followed.
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Apr 12, 2011 22:22
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Juaguocio posted:When Erikson is able to pull this sort of thing off it can be nothing short of breathtaking (see Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice), but the problem as I see it is that he falls short of achieving that kind of unity more often than not. It's ironic because I'd say House of Chains and Midnight Tides are substantially more closely directed and with a sense of unity compared to MoI or DG. MoI actually sprawls too much and even Erikson admitted of having too many balls in the air to juggle. I'd also say that Erikson has one of the most recognizable and personal styles of writing. I never had the feeling of him copying anyone (maybe a certain trend of Glen Cook).
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Apr 12, 2011 22:41
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Kjoery posted:Memories of ice trip report: First in, last out 
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Apr 12, 2011 22:59
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Oh Snapple! posted:First in, last out Better than the Bonehunter motto of: Last in, looking around 
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Apr 12, 2011 23:05
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Oh Snapple! posted:First in, last out For the last time 
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Apr 12, 2011 23:07
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Just finished Toll the Hounds. While I enjoyed it overall, it was still probably one of the weaker entries to the series for me. Usually I'm okay with the philosophy to action ratio Erikson exhibits in these books, but TTH was tipped just a bit too much towards the former for me. Ultimately very little happened for the first 90% of the book, and then in the last 2-3 chapters, EVERYTHING HAPPENED. It was a fantastic climax, to be sure, but the buildup to it wasn't quite as interesting. This really did feel like a book that could have been half as long and not have lost anything important. For all the crazy confrontations that happened at the end, Cutter avenging Murillo was still the most satisfying moment for me. Question: So where had Mother Dark been hiding all this time, and what exactly made her come back at the end? Also, what happened to all the chaos inside Dragnipur? If these are answered in the last two books, just let me know and I'll keep reading. On to Dust of Dreams! The end of the series seems so close!
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Apr 12, 2011 23:29
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Oh Snapple! posted:First in, last out Last in, looking around. 
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Apr 12, 2011 23:33
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Here's a question that I've yet to clear up for myself: what's up with the 'ascendant' dogs? Was the dog in Coltaine's train the same as the dog in Karsa Orlong's raiding party, Gnaw, the same as Garath, the dog in Lady Envy's party, or was it/they Hounds of Shadow (fairly obviously not, although two at least were free by the third and fourth books, etc etc? I never did find enough to make sense of the dogs, which was which or if they're all the same, etc. It bugs me, because I think they are, but can't find anything to really prove or even lend itself to the idea.the periodic fable posted:i don't care about "fantasy names" one way or the other but, wasn't it explained that T'lan comes from the word Tellan with the apostrophe added which in their language (and ours) indicates that something is missing? and in the language of the Imass the thing missing symbolised something deeper than just "there's meant to be a few letters here". i might be misremembering completely, though. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I'm sure he's got a reason for it and it's all explained but on a first read it can be painful to slog through. It ends up coming across more as "here, have a big hefty ladle of Fantasy Language" rather than as a justified narrative choice. Another author I like has stated he tries to never use more than one invented word per sentence, just so you don't get distracted by it, and that's a rule I wish Erikson had followed.  Kjoery posted:-bridgeburners: everyone is ages behind us but instead of waiting we will all suicide because ??? Even if the trade was Whiskeyjack  Plus, there is a reason later why most of them need to be dead coyo7e fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Apr 13, 2011 |
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Apr 13, 2011 04:30
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Question from Memories of Ice: At the end, with the Pannion Seer: I got that he was being used by a jaghut, but what was the whole deal with his sister and the Matron's egg and poo poo What happened with him and Paran and QB? Loved MoI. I didn't think he could top the whole Capustan part, but then they all got to Coral and it just fell into place. Starting House of Chains, and I'm liking Karsa so far. I don't get the hate.
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Apr 13, 2011 19:29
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Praesil posted:Question from Memories of Ice: Its been awhile, and I remember having the same question when I finished MoI as well, but to my recollection: MoI The Pannion Seer WAS a jaghut. At the beginning of the book, Kilava comes across the mother jaghut and her two children. Thinking that the Rent above Morn would keep them safe from the Clan of T'Lan Imass, she pops the two children in it. The Rent is basically a prison intended for one being, so when she pops the son in, a Matron K'Chain Che'Malle who had been trapped in there for many years pops out, then when the daughter goes in the son pops back out. The son uses the Matron to get access to the crypts with the undead che'malle which he uses in his eventual pannion army. When they defeat the Seer, they have mercy on the Seer and reunite him with his sister, who remains at the young age in which she was put in the Rent. And wasn't the Egg a Finnest? Someone who has reread it recently can probably shed more light on this. And yeah, Karsa owns.
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Apr 13, 2011 19:45
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Cervixalot posted:Its been awhile, and I remember having the same question when I finished MoI as well, but to my recollection: That makes a lot of sense. I completely forgot about that part way back at the beginning. and yes, the egg was a finnest.
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Apr 13, 2011 19:59
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