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Cervixalot posted:Its been awhile, and I remember having the same question when I finished MoI as well, but to my recollection:
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Apr 14, 2011 15:50
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On a side note thanks to the people ITT who recommended Joe Abercrombie for post-Malazan blues. The Blade Itself is pretty damned good so far, I think I'm going to ahead and order the other books too.
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Apr 14, 2011 16:00
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Well, Abercrombie is great, but not exactly similar to Malazan. So it's a good recommendation in general but not so fitting to someone who likes Malazan  I'd rather recommend R. Scott Bakker, who at least does some similar things. While warning that he is far more vicious and brutal than Erikson.
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Apr 14, 2011 16:19
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Christ yes, read Bakker if you liked Malazan. His stuff is amazing. Except Neuropath, never even look at that horrible piece of poo poo.
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Apr 14, 2011 16:53
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Abalieno posted:Well, Abercrombie is great, but not exactly similar to Malazan. So it's a good recommendation in general but not so fitting to someone who likes Malazan Oh for sure, I wasn't trying to paint them in the same style. I think after ten books I needed something dissimilar to Malazan and that's why I'm enjoying it so much. I'll check out Bakker when I'm done with The First Law stuff, thanks for the recommendations.
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Apr 14, 2011 17:42
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Abalieno posted:Well, Abercrombie is great, but not exactly similar to Malazan. So it's a good recommendation in general but not so fitting to someone who likes Malazan I couldn't get more than 50 pages into Bakker's first book. And don't e'v'en g'et me s'ta'r't'ed on the nam'es.
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Apr 14, 2011 17:56
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I think most people who enjoy Malazan would probably enjoy The First Law, but it doesn't necessarily work in reverse.
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Apr 14, 2011 18:14
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I read the first Bakker book but he lost me when a demon started cumming black semen everywhere.
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Apr 14, 2011 18:26
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silly posted:I read the first Bakker book but he lost me when a demon started cumming black semen everywhere. uh-oh! Someone's not going to like the first of the prequel books in the Malazan series then, when we get to see Mother Dark and and Father Dark make some baby Tiste!
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Apr 14, 2011 21:27
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silly posted:I read the first Bakker book but he lost me when a demon started cumming black semen everywhere. I'm probably off base but the way I remember it, it was like a bad porno. She gets all into it and then afterwards she is all, "Oh no you didn't. The gently caress is this?" and the guy is all, "Oh yeah I did. You hosed a demon." 
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Apr 14, 2011 21:41
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bigmcgaffney posted:I'm probably off base but the way I remember it, it was like a bad porno. She gets all into it and then afterwards she is all, "Oh no you didn't. The gently caress is this?" and the guy is all, "Oh yeah I did. You hosed a demon." That did indeed happen. The epilogue of that particular book also features a dragon raping an entire village to death one by one, complete with more black spunk. I just finished reading it about a month ago, not sure if I want to move on to book 3.
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Apr 14, 2011 22:04
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Bizob posted:That did indeed happen. The epilogue of that particular book also features a dragon raping an entire village to death one by one, complete with more black spunk. I just finished reading it about a month ago, not sure if I want to move on to book 3. WHAT THE gently caress
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Apr 14, 2011 22:15
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Habibi posted:WHAT THE gently caress IIRC, it was psychically interrogating them the whole time for information about the origins of the ostensible protagonist. The way it worked was: the bad guys killed anyone that didn't have a family. Then all people with families were placed into a couple lines, facing each other, and tied down. Then the dragon showed up and started doing its thing. It started with one person, simultaneously questioning both the individual it was raping and their helpless family members (who could see what was happening) the whole time. Once that man/woman/child was all used up, the dragon just moved to the next family member, and then eventually on to the next family down the line. Awesomely you, the reader, know that absolutely no one was any idea where the protagonist came from. I was honestly surprised, given how many other really awful things had happened in the books to that point, that Bakker managed to plumb new depths. Like I said, I'm not sure I need to read any more of that.
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Apr 14, 2011 22:29
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And I thought the children of the Dead Seed thing was hosed up. Jesus christ 
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Apr 14, 2011 22:31
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Bizob posted:Bakker managed to plumb new depths. 
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Apr 14, 2011 22:35
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Bizob posted:a dragon raping an entire village to death one by one I'd vote for that dragon.
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Apr 14, 2011 22:46
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And the more pathetic degenerates wonder why this entire genre gets little respect. Especially when authors write garbage like that for no thematic or literary reason.
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Apr 14, 2011 23:06
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No it was definitely for a thematic and literary reason. I mean Blood Meridian (a huge pillar of 'regular' literature which gets tons of respect) ends with a giant hairless man raping the main character and murdering him in an outhouse, it's not that different. Though I guess the ending of Blood Meridian is kind of done offscreen and does not involve black cum. Since Bakker is a philosopher everything must be MAKING A POINT  , it's just not always pleasant to read. That scene definitely squicked me out the first time I read it, then I came back and was like 'okay, this makes sense' (because the Consult are literally incarnations of the carnal and vile, they're like, deeply philosophical, man). Taken out of context it does sound pretty loving offputing, but if you've gotten that far in a Bakker book you've probably either given up in disgust or kinda figured out his argument. He doesn't do stuff for cheap thrills. Except Neuropath, that book had a scene like the aforementioned dragon village rape except it was bad enough to actually make me throw the book in the garbage. Never read that book. In conclusion Scott Bakker did a ton of drugs but is a really nice guy and Steven Erikson likes him and his books. Except Neuropath, Erikson hates Neuropath just like me, I know because I asked him when he bought me a drink 
General Battuta fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Apr 14, 2011 |
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Apr 14, 2011 23:17
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Boogle posted:And the more pathetic degenerates wonder why this entire genre gets little respect. Especially when authors write garbage like that for no thematic or literary reason. It's the culture, the dragon was sociologically pushed into fulfilling that societal role, look at the big picture here.
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Apr 14, 2011 23:18
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bigmcgaffney posted:It's the culture, the dragon was sociologically pushed into fulfilling that societal role, look at the big picture here. It wasn't even a dragon man it was a rape alien from before the dawn of time. Okay?
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Apr 14, 2011 23:18
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General Battuta posted:Taken out of context it does sound pretty loving offputing, That's true for everything. It's the habit of reducing everything to poo poo. Even Martin doesn't amount to much when reduced to incest. Imho, Bakker and Erikson elevate the genre to a completely different level and are MUST READ. Not "pleasant", but that's because they aren't derivative and aren't meant to lull the reader.
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Apr 14, 2011 23:22
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Abalieno posted:That's true for everything. It's the habit of reducing everything to poo poo.
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Apr 15, 2011 00:01
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Habibi posted:Sorry, but even contextually, systematic dragon rape is a pretty loving ludicrous concept - and I don't care what your philosophic point is. Anytime you're trying to explain something and the illustration that seems most appropriate is to have families raped to death by a dragon, you need to take a nap, let the narcotics work themselves through your system, and try again in the morning. No one said that Bakker writes stuff as widely appreciated and accessible as Abercrombie. In fact I said he's far more vicious and brutal compared to Erikson. Reducing its worth to a specific scene, out of context, only proves that it goes beyond what you consider tasteful and readable. The error is assuming that your canon should then be extended to everyone else. In fact the best stuff that Bakker does is extremely subtle and happens every moment, without requiring to be made "extreme". There's violence and nasty stuff in the book, but it's not for "porn" or gratuitous. Or to be edgy. Bakker writes some of the most eye-opener stuff, and it's because it's so uncompromising that there are no restraints about it being tasteful.
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Apr 15, 2011 00:14
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Habibi posted:Sorry, but even contextually, systematic dragon rape is a pretty loving ludicrous concept - and I don't care what your philosophic point is. Anytime you're trying to explain something and the illustration that seems most appropriate is to have families raped to death by a dragon, you need to take a nap, let the narcotics work themselves through your system, and try again in the morning. As far as I remember, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not really an actual DRAGON as far as dragons are usually imagined. I mean, it's not like Erikson dragons or whatever...They're more like another race altogether, one that revels in carnal desire and basically makes people go off the deep end when they get into their heads. It's more like the ultimate corruption...By the time he gets to them, he's not raping them in the "hold you down against your will" kind of way, because they're so corrupted they're willing to do it. When you read the stuff, it's hard to read, but you don't think "this is loving unnecessary." The poo poo in Terry Goodkind is a great example of the stupid, tawdry poo poo that can be written, and this isn't like that. That said, I think Bakker handles sex badly in many ways, and sometimes shoehorns it in unnecessarily. A lot of people really like his books, but I'm not massively fond of them. I read the first three, and though he had some interesting ideas (magic is very interesting in his series) there's a lot not to like, including some of the most sterile and boring battle scenes I've read in fantasy. That sucks, because there are a poo poo ton of them. Armies meeting and heroes and such are a huge, huge part of his books, but his battles are told from a kind of far away, dry perspective...I really prefer Erikson or Abercrombie's style, told through the eyes of soldiers as they actually fight.
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Apr 15, 2011 00:56
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^^^^^^^ Yeah basically the first two paragraphs of what he said. The Consult (in Bakker) is kind of...about rape. Rape is the ultimate transgression in our society, more taboo than murder, because reproduction and the sex act are this huge deal for us, right down to our neural hardwiring. And everything the Consult does, from the Inchoroi ability to evoke overwhelming lust, to the way they control their bioengineered constructs, to the No-God and the horrible world-spanning thing it does (cause the miscarriage of all pregnancies as long as it exists), is about transgressing that taboo. It's very psychosexual, and sometimes it's literally sexual. I don't know how to explain this without sounding like a total creep, but (except in Neuropath) scenes like Systematic Dragon Rape don't feel like they're played for some kind of sicko thrills like in Terry Goodkind. It's genuinely weird and hosed up but if you've got a stiff constitution you can read it without feeling like you're participating in a masturbatory fantasy. Quoting out if context if you've never read it is totally unfair because it robs you of all the time you've spent in the world getting acclimated to how hosed up the place is. By that point in the narrative you already know that the Consult constructs are all manipulated through the sex drive, sex and violence are literally the same thing to them. Also it's not a dragon, it's more like the alien from Alien. Which was a rape alien, that's what Alien is about, aliens raping you and why that sucks. I thought the above Bakker sex criticism was right (mostly unnecessary) but I loved Bakker's battles. The big sweeping descriptions really got the tactics across better than 'he fired his exploding crossbow into a window, there was dust everywhere'. Kind of reminded me of the Iliad. Actually when I was talking to Erikson he discussed how differently he and Scott Bakker approached battle scenes. I will never stop namedropping that night. God this may be the creepiest sounding thing I've ever committed to words. If someone screenshots my defense of systematic dragon rape I will never have a political career. edit: Basically I guess the point I should've made is, systematic rape is used as a means of control even today, Bakker's stuff is challenging enough that you'll have to deal with a world where that happens too (and not just by rape aliens). But if you don't want to read that I totally respect it, it really did weird me out my first time through. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Apr 15, 2011 |
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Apr 15, 2011 01:13
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Is this scene in the second book? I never made it that far but for reasons documented elsewhere and not for grotesque imagery.
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Apr 15, 2011 03:24
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bigmcgaffney posted:Is this scene in the second book? I never made it that far but for reasons documented elsewhere and not for grotesque imagery. Yep, it is the epilogue. I will agree that, as I was reading it it wasn't TOO far out of place with the really unpleasant world (in a fully realized, interesting way) that Bakker created. After two books kf that, everything was so bleak and all the characters so awful that systematic dragon rape was what was needed to remind you the bad guys WERE the bad guys. That said, after some time to reflect and think about it, why do I want to read some poo poo like that?
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Apr 15, 2011 04:01
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Abalieno posted:No one said that Bakker writes stuff as widely appreciated and accessible as Abercrombie. In fact I said he's far more vicious and brutal compared to Erikson. I guess if you like to read books that are "uncompromising" then Bakker is a good bet, but I like books that are "enjoyable to read," and I hated The Darkness That Comes Before. I have no problem with violence, rape and philosophical masturbation, but I also like having some excitement or some levity to break up the grimness, and I found none of that in Bakker's writing. I'm sure he's a nice guy in person, but on the page he comes across as a cold, humourless academic. I thought about reading the rest of the series, but after I saw the ridiculous language-tree appendix at the back of the first volume I realized what his priorities were and moved on. I'll take Erikson or Abercrombie any day, because they seem like they know how to laugh.
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Apr 15, 2011 04:04
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The less safe and/or feel-good and the more challenging the material is, the more controversial the author. Bakker doesn't coddle the reader nearly as much as other popular fantasy authors and some readers just don't like being taken out of their comfort zone. Erikson, Cook, Bakker, Abercrombie, Jordan, Sanderson and even Martin; I like them all. If they wrote all the same, safe stuff I'd get bored right quick (yes, I know these guys are fairly tame).
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Apr 15, 2011 05:02
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Corvinus posted:The less safe and/or feel-good and the more challenging the material is, the more controversial the author. Bakker doesn't coddle the reader nearly as much as other popular fantasy authors and some readers just don't like being taken out of their comfort zone. Some people like books that are enjoyable to read, as well.
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Apr 15, 2011 06:07
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bigmcgaffney posted:Some people like books that are enjoyable to read, as well. But that's a different metric for different people, or even for the same person depending on what kind of mood she's in. It doesn't speak to the quality of a work.
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Apr 15, 2011 07:15
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So, I'm about to start The Crippled God and I have a few questions/worries. First off, I looked over the Dramatis Personae and was saddened to see that neither Cutter nor Sorry/Apsalar were listed. Could someone tell me if they make an appearance at all? For some reason, I really liked their storyline and it feels like it was abandoned ~3 books ago. Is it being taken up in an Esslemont book? I also feel like I have absolutely no clue what's happening. I know this is usually normal for this series, but it feels especially bad right now. Am I supposed to be feeling this way? I assume I am, but I just want to check. I have no clue what's going on with Palan in the very beginning, and only have a faint recollection of what happened to Tavore.
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Apr 15, 2011 07:54
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Sankis posted:So, I'm about to start The Crippled God and I have a few questions/worries. Your first question (remember this is a big spoiler so only see if you really, really, really want to know!) Yes they will make an appearance Your second question - No one knows what Paran is up to, the last we saw of him before the tenth book was the eighth when Picker contacted him and he's basically like yeah I'm in a bit of deep poo poo right now can't talk cya. As for Tavore if you forgot then you should re-read the ninth book since it's a direct continuation.
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Apr 15, 2011 08:04
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^^^^^^ drat youSankis posted:So, I'm about to start The Crippled God and I have a few questions/worries. edit: spoilertagging this because the guy above did. they get a small mention but their 'story' isn't part of TCG, no. there are still some gaps so i assume/hope it will be dealt with later on. Sankis posted:I also feel like I have absolutely no clue what's happening. I know this is usually normal for this series, but it feels especially bad right now. Am I supposed to be feeling this way? I assume I am, but I just want to check. I have no clue what's going on with Palan in the very beginning, and only have a faint recollection of what happened to Tavore. i felt exactly the same way and it seems it differs from person to person. i guess some have better recall or something. re: Paran you aren't meant to know what he's doing or exactly where he is and how he got there quite yet so don't worry about it. re: Tavore it picks up more or less just after the end of Dust of Dreams but there's a lot of build-up before we meet them so just be patient. this book was the hardest for me to get into but around the middle or just before it started feeling familiar again. Opal fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Apr 15, 2011 |
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Apr 15, 2011 08:07
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Sankis posted:So, I'm about to start The Crippled God and I have a few questions/worries. To your first question, if you really want it spoiled: Yes, though it's tiny and not part of the main plot.
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Apr 15, 2011 08:11
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Take Dragonlance and throw in some Raistlin rape scenes and have Tanis and Flint talk like autistic philosophers and suddenly it's a whole new take on the genre. Maybe you should make each book three times as long, just to make sure. You can, uh, fill that space with your bad poetry I guess.
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Apr 15, 2011 08:49
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Take Dragonlance and throw in some Raistlin rape scenes and have Tanis and Flint talk like autistic philosophers and suddenly it's a whole new take on the genre. Maybe you should make each book three times as long, just to make sure. You can, uh, fill that space with your bad poetry I guess. At the risk of feeding the trolls, I have to ask why you even bother to post here? You've almost nothing positive to say and you seem to get off on criticizing people for what they like, or criticizing what they like directly. Why bother posting in the thread at all? If you don't like it, ignore it. Nobody is strapping you down and forcing you to read Erickson's stuff.
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Apr 15, 2011 14:35
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Take Dragonlance and throw in some Raistlin rape scenes and have Tanis and Flint talk like autistic philosophers and suddenly it's a whole new take on the genre. Maybe you should make each book three times as long, just to make sure. You can, uh, fill that space with your bad poetry I guess. Aww. I'm sorry Jordan died. 
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Apr 15, 2011 15:15
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A little tidbit I just read about the Warrens and other "magic systems" used in Fantasy:quote:For us, that's all we needed, and we could adjust all we liked for each character using it - potential applications are endless, unconstrained, forever fluid. It became a dynamic system where even the attempted impositions (Deck of Dragons, cults and priest-hoods) had a tendency to slip from the grasp of the users. We're not into 'systems.' We never were. We like things much messier.
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Apr 15, 2011 15:16
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Phummus posted:At the risk of feeding the trolls, I have to ask why you even bother to post here? You've almost nothing positive to say and you seem to get off on criticizing people for what they like, or criticizing what they like directly. Why bother posting in the thread at all? If you don't like it, ignore it. Nobody is strapping you down and forcing you to read Erickson's stuff. haha what the hell? he spent a couple of posts debating his opinion in a rational manner and before that he's discussed the series like everybody else. what brought this on? did you get him mixed up with somebody else?
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Apr 15, 2011 15:19
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