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Juaguocio posted:I have no problem with violence, rape and philosophical masturbation, but I also like having some excitement or some levity to break up the grimness, and I found none of that in Bakker's writing. This is true. But it doesn't make a lot of sense criticizing a book for something that is not there. Bakker's books are almost half as long as one of Erikson's. They are also more focused and inflexible in pursuing their goal. They do not stray, not try to embrace the breadth of the human condition as Erikson tries to do. If there's any humor is usually of the harsh, cruel type. "Disciple of the Dog" is filled with sense of humor, yet still rather abrasive. It's his style. I'd recommend Abercrombie, Rothfuss, Lynch, if you want something that entertains while being intelligent and mature. Books that are fun to read on a page by page basis. Vividly imagined, great characters and so on. Erikson is the opposite kind. Uses the genre to go at the core of themes. Filled with mysteries and layers of significance. Desperate and unrelenting in the search of "meaning". It can entertain but the entertainment is never the only finality. It wants you to think and experience, having faith that in the telling of a story there's power that makes you a better person. Learn or feel something. Be part of the story. Bakker as I said is the eye-opener. Someone who suddenly awakened and saw the terror of reality. There's no way back: quote:"Go back to sleep? No. Never. Not even if I wanted to. Sleep is never had through wanting. It can’t be grasped like an apple to sate one’s hunger. Sleep is like ignorance or forgetfulness... The harder one strives for such things, the further they recede from one’s grasp." Want family drama woven into politics, as an intricate tapestry filled with cliffhangers and shocking moments perfectly placed to keep you turning the pages? Read Martin. Want a kind of fantasy that resembles historical fiction. With very subtle magic, if at all. Focused on an extremely vivid and realistic description and analysis of economics, logistics, technology, with characters perfectly rendered and never exalted, all bathed in perverse cynicism? Read K. J. Parker. Want the more classic of epic fantasy, with bigger than life heroes and mighty struggles, but that leaves behind the archaic baggage and purple prose, that is written with a "modern" sensibility and well balanced? Read Sanderson. Want the more exclusive "literary" elite that snobs classic "fantasy"? Read Mieville, Wolfe, Valente, Vandermeer. I mean, suggestions depend on what one wants to read. All of these names are examples of what I consider very good quality in the genre, but they are very different. As I said if you read to have a good time, as first a foremost goal, then Abercrombie or Rothfuss are to recommend more than Bakker or Erikson. They are far more accessible and do not really pretend to do so much more than "entertaining". But it doesn't mean that "pleasure", "comfort" or "escapism" have to be the only purposes in writing/reading a book. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Apr 15, 2011 |
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Apr 15, 2011 16:51
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I can't say enough good things about Catherynne Valente as a fantasy writer, but she's totally different from just about anything else in that post, even Mieville. I would totally recommend her, just be advised you're getting a whole different sort of prose and story.
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Apr 15, 2011 17:34
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Phummus posted:At the risk of feeding the trolls, I have to ask why you even bother to post here? You've almost nothing positive to say and you seem to get off on criticizing people for what they like, or criticizing what they like directly. Why bother posting in the thread at all? If you don't like it, ignore it. Nobody is strapping you down and forcing you to read Erickson's stuff. I have a lot of posts in this thread (and the last one) and not all of them are negative? In fact, the only negative ones have been in the last few days when a couple posters have said that Erikson's writing is groundbreaking and has value as literature. I'm probably coming off as overly negative about the entire series due to the recent debate on that particular issue, but I really did enjoy it. It's not a series I'd recommend to casual readers and I do take a bit of exception to people (including Erikson himself) calling it literary or revolutionary or 'postmodern' (if only for its implications. I can understand Abalieno's viewpoint but I think the idea is marginally realized if at all there) but I did like the series for what it is. With some reservations, of course, but I think you'll find that's the case with everyone here. Taste is all subjective after all! Compared to some of the debates about whether ICE should be allowed to breathe that happened in the last thread, I think this one is pretty tame! The Dragonlance thing was supposed to be funny, maybe it came off more bitter than it was intended. 
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Apr 15, 2011 18:44
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Yeah, it came off kind of bitter, and I wasn't looking at the thread as a whole, but just the past few pages as I've been catching up. I was a dick. Sorry about that.
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Apr 15, 2011 18:52
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Nothing like a bit of dragon rape to bring out the worst in people. Anyways, to get back on task I thought I should add that I finished TCG two days ago. Something has been bothering me a bit. What happened to Sinn's brother, corporal Shard? I'm guessing he bit it at some point but I honestly can't remember.
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Apr 15, 2011 19:01
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Bizob posted:What happened to Sinn's brother, corporal Shard? I'm guessing he bit it at some point but I honestly can't remember. DoD spoiler: chopped up by a giant lizard
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Apr 15, 2011 19:13
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OK, we got it, you enjoy dragon/alien rape. It's cool. Free country.  **I just called the cops
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Apr 15, 2011 19:16
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Bizob posted:Nothing like a bit of dragon rape to bring out the worst in people. Oddly enough, he's mentioned towards the middle of TCG as 'part of the group,' but doesn't appear in TCG. Presumably he died in the battle with the Short-tails, though his death doesn't happen 'on-screen.' He definitely didn't survive to the end, at least.
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Apr 15, 2011 19:21
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Oddly enough, he's mentioned towards the middle of TCG as 'part of the group,' but doesn't appear in TCG. Presumably he died in the battle with the Short-tails, though his death doesn't happen 'on-screen.' He definitely didn't survive to the end, at least. I came across one funny thing I somehow missed the first time through: Pearl. When he and Lostara Yil go to meet with Gesler and Stormy and co, the soldiers mention having seen Pearl dancing on a table in drag, in some tavern. I am having a hard time assuming that was only a disguise..  Also, who the gently caress ARE Gesler and Stormy and Truth and those guys, what's their history? I've read through like 7 of the Malazan books at least once, the first 3 I read at least 3 or four times now. Who were they? Also, is that dude in the tower with the fossilized dinosaurs Urko or possibly his brother? coyo7e fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Apr 15, 2011 |
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Apr 15, 2011 19:25
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Boogle posted:DoD spoiler: chopped up by a giant lizard I figured something like that must have happened. I had vaguely remembered that (TCG spoiler) the only two people Sinn really gave a poo poo about were Grub and Shard, but then I couldn't remember what happened to Shard since he doesn't even get a name drop on TCG, she seems totally non-plussed about his absence, and no one is at all is upset when Stormy suplexes her off a cliff and her entire body graphically explodes.
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Apr 15, 2011 19:26
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coyo7e posted:
They are, if I recall correctly, Some of the crew who navigated the Edur ship (Silandh?) through the Tellan warren. That's where they got the bronze skin, etc.
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Apr 15, 2011 19:35
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Bizob posted:I figured something like that must have happened. I had vaguely remembered that (TCG spoiler) the only two people Sinn really gave a poo poo about were Grub and Shard, but then I couldn't remember what happened to Shard since he doesn't even get a name drop on TCG, she seems totally non-plussed about his absence, and no one is at all is upset when Stormy suplexes her off a cliff and her entire body graphically explodes. I just searched through DoD and TCG via Kindle and he doesn't seem to be mentioned by name during or after the climax of DoD. In TCG, Grub seems to know or think that Shard is dead but it doesn't happen on-screen. Now that I think about it, Sinn and Grub were in a warren during that battle. She later claims to have witnessed and possibly nudged the magic that blew Keneb up but I don't remember them being around to actually see it.
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Apr 15, 2011 19:43
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coyo7e posted:Also, who the gently caress ARE Gesler and Stormy and Truth and those guys, what's their history? I've read through like 7 of the Malazan books at least once, the first 3 I read at least 3 or four times now. Who were they? Also, is that dude in the tower with the fossilized dinosaurs Urko or possibly his brother? Gesler and Stormy's backstory is basically that they're (I think this is revealed in DoD) old-time members of the Malazan army. I think both were, like Whiskeyjack, on their way to Fist or possibly already Fist or some other high rank before the Laseen takeover, after which they were bumped down to corporal or adjutant and set to boring guard duty somewhere in Seven Cities. Truth is the young recruit who ends up in the Marine squad with them. Everything else happens during the series. And yeah, you got the identity of the tower guy correct (the one in the spoiler).
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Apr 15, 2011 19:49
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Gesler and Stormy's backstory is basically that they're (I think this is revealed in DoD) old-time members of the Malazan army. I think both were, like Whiskeyjack, on their way to Fist or possibly already Fist or some other high rank before the Laseen takeover, after which they were bumped down to corporal or adjutant and set to boring guard duty somewhere in Seven Cities. Truth is the young recruit who ends up in the Marine squad with them. Everything else happens during the series. I guess I was just hoping that someone had read a latter book than I'ev reached, or something, which might satisfy the reader (me) with a little taste of what was going on when Adjutant Gesler still had rank, his penchant breaking commanders' noses (iirc) arose from or maybe a few more amusing scenes with this happening, etc. Phummus posted:They are, if I recall correctly, Some of the crew who navigated the Edur ship (Silandh?) through the Tellan warren. That's where they got the bronze skin, etc. Oh yeah, also what happened to the Silandh's whistle?
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Apr 15, 2011 22:30
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I'm not going to lie, the part where one of Stormy/Gesler remembers the dead mouse in TCG made me tear up. For all of Erikson's tendency towards flat secondary characters who spout long-winded philosophizing drivel (and the problem you see above where I can't really differentiate between Stormy and Gesler), a lot of his 'scenes' are excellent. That one, in particular, was extremely resonant for some reason I can't quite put into words.
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Apr 15, 2011 22:40
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Does anyone know what's the deal with the core of mythology? Just finished to write a comment on Tor.com reread and I'm wondering how it could all fit together. Questions like: who comes first between K'rul, Burn, the Azaths and Mother Dark? Could the world outlive Burn?
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Apr 15, 2011 22:56
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Gesler and Stormy's backstory is basically that they're (I think this is revealed in DoD) old-time members of the Malazan army. I think both were, like Whiskeyjack, on their way to Fist or possibly already Fist or some other high rank before the Laseen takeover, after which they were bumped down to corporal or adjutant and set to boring guard duty somewhere in Seven Cities. Truth is the young recruit who ends up in the Marine squad with them. Everything else happens during the series. Gesler was like a Lieutenant or something and Stormy was an Adjunct(sp?) or whatever they call the right hand man of the captain in a fleet.
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Apr 15, 2011 23:02
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There's no way to tell, really. (maybe a spoiler, but better safe than sorry) The Azath, Mother Dark, and K'rul are all native to different planes of existence or warrens or what have you, so the timelines of their existence are different to begin with. We had a big conversation about Burn in the older thread, but truthfully there just isn't enough information about her to make any claims. She's almost certainly Elder, since the Thel Akai came from her according to Stonewielder and I believe they're the oldest of mortal races, but her actual nature is almost completely unknown. No clue if she's part of the K'rul/Mael/Errastas/Kilamandaros group of Elders, either.
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Apr 15, 2011 23:10
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Abalieno posted:Does anyone know what's the deal with the core of mythology? Just finished to write a comment on Tor.com reread and I'm wondering how it could all fit together. Then again the Azath are links to all planes and directly linked to the decks, however the Crippled God's house had to be added to the decks before he stopped loving up reality, so there must be a larger scope than the stuff we're aware of, bringing back to the Mother Dark thing, imho. Did that explain anything for you? No? Good. I'm confused, too. What would've happened if, inside Dragnipur, the Chaos caught up to the gate to the true warren of shadow - which is what I assume/remember was in the center of the wagon, and where/how the hounds escaped to, for instance? coyo7e fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Apr 16, 2011 |
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Apr 16, 2011 01:01
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coyo7e posted:Did that explain anything for you? No? Good. I'm confused, too. What would've happened if, inside Dragnipur, the Chaos caught up to the gate to the true warren of shadow - which is what I assume/remember was in the center of the wagon, and where/how the hounds escaped to, for instance? actually the warren of darkness, just fyi or whatever
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Apr 16, 2011 01:15
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I doubt Erikson will ever give a concrete answer about the origins of his universe, though he drops some pretty big hints. At the very beginning of DoD when Heboric is considering the patterns that appear to him as he returns to life at the bottom of the sea, he has a vision of an immense star field in deep space and realizes that each star is a sun like the one he knows. This classic "eye-opening" vision makes me think that Erikson ultimately has a "scientific" view of the universe in mind, and that Warrens are simply other worlds or the connections between them. The Tiste peoples are not native to Malazworld so we cannot assume that any of their mythology represents the literal truth of the universe's origins. It may be that Mother Dark has been around longer than most other deities, but the fundamental forces that she and her ilk represent exist regardless of the worship of sentient beings, so I think she is merely a powerful, persistent cultural creation of the Tiste Andii. I don't think she existed in Malazworld until the Tiste invasions, but we will no doubt find out the real answer once Erikson writes the Kharkanas books. As for Burn, my feeling is that she is the most recent and persistent manifestation of the Malazworld "mother earth" character, who has had as many names as there are languages. In RotCG Ereko calls her the Sorceress, and suggests that she is the power behind all things. EDIT: While I'm at it I might as well respond to this: Abalieno posted:Bakker as I said is the eye-opener. Someone who suddenly awakened and saw the terror of reality. There's no way back: It's funny to me that you see this as Bakker's strong point, because I feel that Erikson addresses many of the same themes, and does a better job of it. It comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion, really- do you see Bakker's focusing on misery at the expense of fun as a good thing, or a bad thing? For me personally, fantasy still needs to have elements of wonder, romance and fairy tale for me to enjoy it. It may sound odd to praise Erikson for including these elements when he most often seems preoccupied with horror, death, rape and suffering, but he is also able to write the kind of stirring, romantic stuff that got me into fantasy in the first place (I am using "romantic" in the sense of Romanticism if you're wondering). Erikson's strength is that he is able to evoke the kind of cosmic horror that you describe, and also write stuff that's just plain fun. As for your recommended reading list, there are a few names there I'll have to look into, though I would hesitate to describe Rothfuss as "mature." Juaguocio fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Apr 16, 2011 |
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Apr 16, 2011 01:43
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Juaguocio posted:Erikson's strength is that he is able to evoke the kind of cosmic horror that you describe, and also write stuff that's just plain fun. I would describe it more like a kind of tragedy in the literary sense. For all the world's horrors and the uncaring people in it who perpetuate injustice and cruelty Erikson shows that there is a glimmer of hope, through the the actions and characters of people like Fiddler, Gesler, and Stormy.
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Apr 16, 2011 03:13
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Boogle posted:I would describe it more like a kind of tragedy in the literary sense. For all the world's horrors and the uncaring people in it who perpetuate injustice and cruelty Erikson shows that there is a glimmer of hope, through the the actions and characters of people like Fiddler, Gesler, and Stormy. That's why I've never understood the appeal of a lot horror movies, especially the current torture-porn genre like Saw and Hostel. It's one thing to acknowledge the world isn't always comprised of cackling villains and pure heroes, but if you have to decide who the good guys are by non-participation in systematic unsolicited draconic sodomy, then what's the point? If everyone is so unlikeable and the world is incredible depressing, then it fails the "Why should I care what happens?" test, especially if this is for entertainment. HeroOfTheRevolution posted:I'm not going to lie, the part where one of Stormy/Gesler remembers the dead mouse in TCG made me tear up. For all of Erikson's tendency towards flat secondary characters who spout long-winded philosophizing drivel (and the problem you see above where I can't really differentiate between Stormy and Gesler), a lot of his 'scenes' are excellent. That one, in particular, was extremely resonant for some reason I can't quite put into words. There are quite a few scenes that resonate like that for me where there's not a lot of expository dialog but it tells you volumes about the people involved. MT The scene after the grandmother has been stabbed by Gerun Eberict; In half a page or so, it tells you exactly what kind of person he is, sets up his downfall, and deepens the mystery of Bugg. Even though she's a throwaway character, the idea that someone would crawl back home to die just so the children wouldn't think they were abandoned really got to me. The same thing with the watchman throwing himself over Tehol when he's getting beaten. BH When Tavore and T'amber convince Kalam to try to escort them back to the ships was a big step forward in character development in just a couple pages. Willingly not choosing to sell out and instead go down kicking and screaming because it's the right thing to do made me a fan of all three. Kalam had lots of screen time and had done plenty of cool things before, but I think that scene really cemented him as a real character for me.
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Apr 16, 2011 04:42
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Juaguocio posted:
Brilliantly said, I couldn't agree more.
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Apr 16, 2011 04:46
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Finally finished TCG last night. What an epic story this has been, it's gonna be weird to not have a Malazan book to read. I think overall the books were stronger towards the beginning and middle of the series, as others have said, by the end there were just so many characters and plot threads that it became almost an academic exercise in trying to keep track of everything. For some reason I kept expecting the Crippled God to do something really awesome at the end and well ... meh.
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Apr 18, 2011 17:25
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Juaguocio posted:As for Burn, my feeling is that she is the most recent and persistent manifestation of the Malazworld "mother earth" character, who has had as many names as there are languages. In RotCG Ereko calls her the Sorceress, and suggests that she is the power behind all things.
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Apr 19, 2011 19:37
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adamarama posted:I'm about 1/3 way through Stonewielder and some of the characters know the Queen of Dreams as the Sorceress. She is apparently just a living mortal, who has acquired immense power. The Queen of Dreams may be linked to Burn in some ways though, as Burn is sleeping. Pure speculation, of course My bad, you're right. What Ereko calls Burn (or whoever) is the Enchantress.
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Apr 20, 2011 06:08
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So I just finished book 10 today, and I'm going to do a big thought dump, are we still spoilering? I guess so. The wrap that Erikson managed to put onto the story in general was just amazingly skillful. The way all the elements tied together, the way Tavore's motivations were revealed, the Crippled God's face turn, he just turned the whole series on its ear and did it so completely masterfully, I can't even heap enough praise on him. There were even some meta elements that were extremely well crafted, like the mentioning of the narrative, how it feels to be part of a recorded history, the CG talking about telling the tale, etc. I think the part that struck me the hardest was that damned cattledog and Gesler charging to his death to save it, it was like two of the most epic plot points in the story holding hands. My only gripe would be the lack of Kruppe, aside from dropping in on Torrent and giving him a bow, he was way under represented. Random questions: So was Cotillion's strike to "release" the Crippled God and erase any chance of him calling down his followers? It seemed like despite how evenhanded he was being, there was still a thought of malice at destroying everybody by completing the summoning of the jade strangers. Did he slay the CG or just wound him enough to cause him to quickly flee? Other series stuff: So Grub is the reincarnation of Coltaine, yes? His origins were always mysterious, and since we never got anything concretely about Coltaine after the crows swarmed the sky near the pregnant woman, and Grub's not-very-cryptic comment about "being there" with everyone who was being crucified at Aren, it just seemed to click.
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Apr 20, 2011 23:38
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Cotillion Initially, Cotillion and Shadowthrone wanted to get rid of the CG as some of the more established gods were using him to enhance their power, and they wanted to even the playing field. Saving the world was just a nice bonus. Cotillion killed the CG. The crows built him an inferior body, not his true form, and although the otoral dragon released his spirit, it was still trapped in mortal flesh. So although Cotillion did kill the CG, he did it purely to give him final release. Koryk breaks down because he saw how different the CG was to the cruel Malaz gods, but the others understand. I don't think the CG was being malicious in any way, he wasn't calling the jade strangers. It always seemed to me that his followers were on a pilgrimage to bring him home. It's one of the least well explained aspects of the story; the jade strangers are just as alien as the CG himself. Grub This is another poorly explained part of the series. However, I don't think Grub is Coltaine. The crows take Coltaine's spirit and I think they give it to a Rhivi woman, it's been a while since I've read that far back. Grub appears to be an ascendant, manifested by the extreme suffering of the Chain of Dogs. He's similar enough to Dassem/Dassembrae in that sense. I think one of the early books refers to Grub as a future First Sword of the Empire.
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Apr 21, 2011 00:11
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Erikson could probably write another book of epilogue. 1. What happened to Draconus? Presumably he took flight to help Korabas, but we never see him again after he leaves Ublala. 2. The entire fight that Silchas Ruin and Tulas Shorn had with the dragons was eschewed as well, we just hear about Tulas being destroyed later (i really hope I'm not blanking out on these 2 parts). 3. Did they manage to preserve sorcery or not? Korabas was said to be a "corpse", but Heboric grasped hold of her and did.... what? We know D'rek is now chained in place of the CG are they bound to Burn? Oy. 4. Where is Silverfox? And her Imass? I remember she specifically went to Assail/Kolanse to fight the threat there, then she never shows up again.
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Apr 21, 2011 02:51
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Loving Life Partner posted:Erikson could probably write another book of epilogue. 1. Draconus Finds and kills Sechul Lath and Kilmandaros. Then he presumably goes in search of the Errant to kill him too. 4 Silverfox is going to be in an Esslemont book probably.
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Apr 21, 2011 03:10
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Loving Life Partner posted:Other series stuff: The reincarnation of Coltaine appears in Return of the Crimson Guard, and it is not Grub. Grub existed before Coltaine died, for one thing. It's probably been awhile since you've read Deadhouse Gates, but the explanation for Grub's comment about being there is even far less cryptic than you make it out to be - he was actually, physically there at the walls of Aren. He was rescued by Duiker and adopted by Keneb during and after the Chain of Dogs. The best explanation I can think of for Grub is that he is a new god of war, as he is the manifestation of the violence and suffering of the Chain of Dogs. There's a significant deal made throughout the novels about how war has a thousand names. We see the deaths of the 'bestial' gods of war: Fener is killed by Karsa, one of the Wolves are killed whens it manifests itself, and Trake is either dead or severely crippled when Gruntle dies. There's a lot of philosophizing about how the time for the bestial gods is over because humans do war and violence far better than beasts ever could. The ascended Bridgeburners, Grub, and Nefarious Bredd are all examples of this idea of humans being war's new keepers. We know Grub becomes the First Sword of the Empire at some point in the future, too.
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Apr 21, 2011 11:00
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So Enduring Suffering, Noble Sacrifice and Petty Tediousness are the new gods of war?
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Apr 21, 2011 16:23
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The reincarnation of Coltaine appears in Return of the Crimson Guard, and it is not Grub. Grub existed before Coltaine died, for one thing. It's probably been awhile since you've read Deadhouse Gates, but the explanation for Grub's comment about being there is even far less cryptic than you make it out to be - he was actually, physically there at the walls of Aren. He was rescued by Duiker and adopted by Keneb during and after the Chain of Dogs. TCG: They explain in TCG that Grub is a physical manifestation of the Chain of Dogs. I haven't read it in awhile and can't remember the exact language, but it says something about the insanity of the Chain of Dogs inhabiting this kid's body/mind. Anyone remember what I'm talking about and feel like explaining it better?
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Apr 21, 2011 17:32
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Oooh, ooh, pick me! I want to be the Destriant of Petty Tediousness!
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Apr 21, 2011 17:33
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Sil posted:So Enduring Suffering, Noble Sacrifice and Petty Tediousness are the new gods of war? tell me more
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Apr 22, 2011 01:34
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Oooh, ooh, pick me! I want to be the Destriant of Petty Tediousness! From now on you shall be known as Moul D'slice.
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Apr 22, 2011 03:23
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Gesler was like a Lieutenant or something and Stormy was an Adjunct(sp?) or whatever they call the right hand man of the captain in a fleet. IIRC Gesler was actually a high fist for one day but was demoted for trying to get everyone to swear to Fener.
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Apr 22, 2011 06:00
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TCG: Only because he wanted to be Daseem 2.0 or whatever.
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Apr 22, 2011 07:07
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The reincarnation of Coltaine appears in Return of the Crimson Guard, and it is not Grub.
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Apr 22, 2011 12:55
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