|
Spookydonut posted:I don't mean downgrading the call, I mean when you slot it into your scale of impact (every referee should have a scale), if it doesn't meet the criteria for a particular penalty. This is another thing I disagree with. I don't think minor penalties make the game safer at all. To me, if you backblock someone and it affects their skating at all (like making them noticeably wobbly even if they don't fall) that should be a penalty. A real actual penalty with impact, so a major. If you backblock them and it doesn't affect them in any way, then it shoudln't be a penalty at all. Same goes for low blocks, forearms, whatever. Either it has impact, in which case it should be a penalty, or it doesn't, in which case we shouldn't care. The only problem here is that it doesn't discourage people from taking soccer-style flops to draw penalties, but I that already happens and I don't really know if there's much to be done about that.
|
#
?
Apr 8, 2011 23:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 12:27 |
|
|
Dominion posted:The current WFTDA ruleset is TOO COMPLICATED. I fear I may have gone a bit overboard with this, but consider this a preliminary white paper on the rules of roller derby in general, not just the WFTDA: http://windymanrd.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/the-pack-problem/ I also made a video that complements this, highlighting a perfect storm of bad for banked track rules. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIkt_mSTXXs LA promptly closed its loopholes. When will the WFTDA close theirs? Feedback on my commentary is appreciated.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 00:19
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:I fear I may have gone a bit overboard with this, but consider this a preliminary white paper on the rules of roller derby in general, not just the WFTDA: I didn't read most of it. I'm just going to admit that right now. I read the intro, and then saw there was a table of contents, and I just don't care about the topic enough to read all of it. I've read most of your posts on the subject here, though. I'm not trying to be an rear end about it, but there's just way too much there. I did read chapter 5, though. I'm not going to argue that one team removing themselves from play to allow their jammer to score five points uncontested is lame, and the fact that only one major would be assessed for that doesn't help. There are ways to solve it other than fundamentally changing how the pack is defined. Add some hysteresis on it (I would love this, when you have a split pack that is right on the edge of 10 feet and keeps bouncing in and out of no pack): the pack continues to exist for a few seconds after what would be destruction under the current rules. All players that were part of the pack at the time it would have been destroyed continue to make up the pack for 5 seconds (just throwing a number out there). When this time is up, immediately assign out of play/pack destruction penalties to the skater most responsible. Add some sort of no pack warning like out of play warnings so that the refs would indicate that the pack is about to cease to exist. This basically takes the grace period that was granted before a failure to reform penalty is assigned and turns it into a grace period before the pack is considered destroyed. Another that would help in some scenarios: remove boundaries from the equation. If you have a 3-1 pack and they knock the 1 blocker out of bounds, she is still part of the pack as long as she is within 10 feet and upright/skating/stepping/etc. This would change how the scenario would play out currently, where the blocker would be able to re-enter immediately without a cut (since everyone else is out of play). She would be forced to re-enter behind the blocker that knocked her out (and anyone else she may have passed) or face a track cut penalty. To get around knee-down starts, just add a rule that causes any blocker out of play at the start of the jam to return to bench. This would need to be worded carefully, but the Rules committee is smart, and I'm sure they could figure it out. The team that wants to start the jam would still be able to by skating away from the pivot line, forcing a no pack. At that point, they'd stop, and the skaters behind the line would be forced to move up. They get the jam started, but it moves the action far enough forward from the jam line that the pack should be reformed by the time the jammer gets there and she doesn't get a free pass to lead jammer. One other thing from your summary, rules with gray areas in them are bad. You state that you like the OSDA rules because they're simple and state what you can do and what you can't do. If you want competitive legitimacy, in my mind, you can't have gray areas, otherwise you need to start tracking precedent to ensure fair enforcement in the gray area. Gray area lets officials give the game their own slant, and each official may be different.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 05:47
|
|
|
Mr. Powers posted:I didn't read most of it. I'm just going to admit that right now. I read the intro, and then saw there was a table of contents, and I just don't care about the topic enough to read all of it. I've read most of your posts on the subject here, though. I'm not trying to be an rear end about it, but there's just way too much there. Yeah, I figured I went a bit overboard with it, like I said. Once I started it, it just got longer and longer. I eventually got beyond the point of no return and just ran with it. I had way too much free time at work and was extremely bored, so that's what came out of it. It is what it is. Thanks for taking a look at it anyway. But as for your other suggestions, they're all good ones. Still, I think adding situational rule changes only puts band-aids on the problem. Plus, there's a difference between grey areas in the rulebook in and grey areas in officiating judgement calls. The rulebook says what you can or can't do, and it's up to referees to determine if a player does or does not do something legally. Problems arise when there's a grey area in the rulebook and officials don't know how to call something because it's not clear to them or it wasn't a situation explicitly covered. For the refs in the thread, please at least check out section 8 and tell me what you think of it. Thanks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 06:43
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:For the refs in the thread, please at least check out section 8 and tell me what you think of it. Thanks. Regarding jammers moving before the jammer start whistle: I've wondered why you don't see this more often, but I think the issue is timing. When the 2008 Volvo Ocean Race launched the Boston to Ireland leg, the start was at a specific time. The teams were running loops hoping to have the timing just right so that they're cruising across the start line just as the race starts. If they're too early, they start way back because they have to loop around, too late and you're just back in natural position behind the leaders. Jammers would have the same issue. If they start to early, they'll have to come to a stop or risk false start penalties. If the jammer whistle goes early, then they're going to be starting behind the other jammer (albeit likely with more speed). One last minor note on this: Taking a knee after the jam start whistle would be illegal destruction of the pack, if I recall. It is a different scenario than already being on one's knee at the jam start whistle. As for the rest of it, I've seen most of it before in your posts here, so I won't go into a long rehash of things I've written before, but I think you are making a false conclusion because a team can take a knee to force a jam start the pack definition should be changed to just be the largest group of skaters of any team. I completely agree that something should be changed, though, just not in agreement over what should be changed or what it should be changed to. Also, one new point that I don't think I've brought up before. If this is supposed to be about fans getting exciting games and whatnot, changing the pack definition as you suggest would be an ultimate boon to slow starts. Do you have four skaters and your jammer in the box? The other team would have to destroy the pack to start their jammer. If you happen to have one more blocker than them, you can perch behind the pivot line as long as you want, and until they get another blocker out of the box so they have even numbers, they would have no way to start the jammer (and even then, it would be via the same rule that allows a knee-down start to occur).
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2011 07:00
|
|
|
Welp, today is our first bout of the season for the home teams and it looks like I pretty well killed the thread with that last post.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2011 13:57
|
|
|
SCDD B-Team double header today. I bench manage for one of them, gonna be a great evening!
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2011 18:48
|
|
|
Anybody around here going to Spring Roll or Midwest Brew Ha Ha, either as a fan or official?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2011 16:04
|
|
|
Our banked track is done!    I finally got to skate on it last night. It was pretty nice, but it can tire you out very quickly if you don't know how to skate on it properly. Or you have weak legs. Or you're out of shape. All of the above apply to me. Anyway, ask me about skating on a banked track!
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2011 18:05
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:Our banked track is done! That is awesome! Congratulations to your team.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2011 18:11
|
|
|
I finally got my custom skates today! This is the photo The Bruised Boutique took. They threw on a set of the black Heartless wheels since I had already picked up the wheels I ordered with the skates. I'm regretting getting the Mojos because they look pretty rad with the Heartless wheels. 126 boot, Magnum White DA45 plates. I didn't realize the DA45 trucks were going to be black, continuing the black/white look. I wish I had gone solid black and solid white, though. I need to go back Friday and pick up the cut-away toe stops, though. The front wheels were rubbing on the stock stops tonight during tight turns.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2011 05:11
|
|
|
After watching Cincinnati vs Indianapolis tonight, I'm starting to really dislike no-pack starts. Once in a while is ok, but it was getting to be like every third jam at times, and I think four in a row once or twice. Still mostly enjoying it though!
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2011 03:32
|
|
|
Popoi posted:After watching Cincinnati vs Indianapolis tonight, I'm starting to really dislike no-pack starts. Once in a while is ok, but it was getting to be like every third jam at times, and I think four in a row once or twice. As a ref, I completely agree. The rules put forth a method for starting the jam in the event one team is lagging, and that's to skate away from the line, and once you're 10 feet away, the jammers will start. This will not be punished as destruction on the pack, and it keeps the pace of the game faster than fighting a slow start with knee-downs.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2011 04:01
|
|
|
Popoi posted:After watching Cincinnati vs Indianapolis tonight, I'm starting to really dislike no-pack starts. Once in a while is ok, but it was getting to be like every third jam at times, and I think four in a row once or twice. There was a doozy of a jam start during the Philly/Denver game on Saturday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhyLJEwT7sQ Yes, it was exciting. So exciting, in fact, I had to spend a few hours to write about it on my blog. poo poo like this is starting to wear thin on me. And between two top-ten teams, to boot! Unacceptable.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2011 08:21
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:There was a doozy of a jam start during the Philly/Denver game on Saturday. This is why I love the single whistle starts of OSDA. What would be the problem with doing the same in WFTDA?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2011 11:58
|
|
|
ODC posted:This is why I love the single whistle starts of OSDA. What would be the problem with doing the same in WFTDA? I think the problem would be articulated by "hurf durf lol osda"
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2011 14:53
|
|
|
Dominion posted:I think the problem would be articulated by "hurf durf lol osda" You're most likely right.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2011 15:12
|
|
|
Popoi posted:After watching Cincinnati vs Indianapolis tonight, I'm starting to really dislike no-pack starts. Once in a while is ok, but it was getting to be like every third jam at times, and I think four in a row once or twice. Going from ref to skater I'd have to say that I went from disliking it to liking it. I must also say that since we've implemented the tactic (among other things), our rankings have shot up considerably in the last 6 months.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2011 15:25
|
|
|
Aericina posted:Going from ref to skater I'd have to say that I went from disliking it to liking it. I must also say that since we've implemented the tactic (among other things), our rankings have shot up considerably in the last 6 months.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2011 19:16
|
|
|
Popoi posted:It can be pretty effective, especially if your jammer is good at getting around the 8-person standing clusterfuck that's usually happening just past the pivot line, but that doesn't make it fun to watch. This is the problem. The techniques that are effective are also the techniques that are bad for roller derby's entertainment value. I appreciate smart derby strategies as much as the next guy, but not when they are counter-intuitive to how sports are supposed to work.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2011 21:34
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:This is the problem. The techniques that are effective are also the techniques that are bad for roller derby's entertainment value. I appreciate smart derby strategies as much as the next guy, but not when they are counter-intuitive to how sports are supposed to work.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2011 23:57
|
|
|
Thanks for that. Although, judging by the traffic stats on my blog, there's already a good thousand or so views of my recent article about the pack no-starts, with about 25% of those coming from Facebook. I also got mentioned by Derby Deeds in today's episode, so I don't think it won't be too long until the right people see what they need to see about this. By the way, I thought it interesting that one of the referrers to the article was a private league forum for Gotham. I've got other leagues' forums also linking to my article. If only I could see what they were talking about.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2011 00:09
|
|
|
Can't wait to get my poo poo pushed in by the Shock Exchange tomorrow, just saying. 
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2011 03:34
|
|
|
downtimejesus posted:Can't wait to get my poo poo pushed in by the Shock Exchange tomorrow, just saying. I reffed with Jimmy Rage earlier this year when we traveled to Suburbia. He is super high-energy. Good luck. Tomorrow I jam ref for the first time in a bout, and hope to not get my poo poo pushed in by anyone. edit: poo poo pushed in, but only because jammers go way faster when they're not on our super slippery floor and in a real bout compared to a scrimmage. Also, I'm glad I wasn't the other JR who go taken out by his jammer. carticket fucked around with this message at 05:05 on May 8, 2011 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2011 07:22
|
|
|
WindyMan, one of your epics, the one on pack non-starts, is getting passed around my league on Facebook. I just thought you might appreciate knowing that.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 05:04
|
|
|
Mr. Powers posted:WindyMan, one of your epics, the one on pack non-starts, is getting passed around my league on Facebook. I just thought you might appreciate knowing that. I do, thank you. Although, I would love to know what people are saying. If you don't mind, could you do a little spying and report back on the general idea of what they think about it? I've gotten little feedback directly from skaters, so it would be helpful to get an insight into what they think. Anyway, Spring Roll is this weekend and I think I'll be hunkering down at home watching all of the men's games. It was my favorite thing to watch last year outside of tourney season, and now that MRDA appears to have taken over the event—there are 17 sanctioned men's MRDA games against 8 women's games, only 3 of which are WFTDA sanctioned—it'll be even better this year.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 05:57
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:Anyway, Spring Roll is this weekend and I think I'll be hunkering down at home watching all of the men's games. It was my favorite thing to watch last year outside of tourney season, and now that MRDA appears to have taken over the event—there are 17 sanctioned men's MRDA games against 8 women's games, only 3 of which are WFTDA sanctioned—it'll be even better this year. Yep, we're sending our JV team the Warning Belles up there. Last year we abstained completely.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 12:58
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:I do, thank you. Although, I would love to know what people are saying. If you don't mind, could you do a little spying and report back on the general idea of what they think about it? I've gotten little feedback directly from skaters, so it would be helpful to get an insight into what they think. Mostly just URL shares. I'll go back and see if there are any comments. Also, cheer for the GateKeepers for me. I've got a friend on that team.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 17:53
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:I've gotten little feedback directly from skaters, so it would be helpful to get an insight into what they think.  Basically you're spot on with that blog post.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2011 21:59
|
|
|
downtimejesus posted:We had a 4-2 pack disadvantage and scored four points against the Shock Exchange when one of our dudes took a knee and killed the pack on purpose If you don't mind, could you do a mini-interview with me for my blog about that jam? If it's cool you can send me an email via from the contact page on my blog. downtimejesus posted:and considering we scored five points the entire game, 
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2011 16:56
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:If you don't mind, could you do a mini-interview with me for my blog about that jam? If it's cool you can send me an email via from the contact page on my blog. downtimejesus fucked around with this message at 06:08 on May 15, 2011 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2011 06:01
|
|
|
I got to sit in the stands and sit and watch my first roller derby bout ever yesterday. Seriously... I've always either been doing photography, actively reffing, or inactively reffing (half of a double header, not allowed to cheer) every other one. Boston vs. KC (and the home game before). I have to say, this sport is tons of fun to watch! (also tons of fun to ref).
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2011 15:39
|
|
|
Thought this was a good time to announce that we split off from the Orlando Psycho City Derby Girls and formed a co-ed league called Florida Derby League. We've had practices for a week now and I have started to skate, which is so much fun. Besides our two practices this week, the wife and I have taken the kids to go skating twice including 4 miles on a paved outdoor trail today. I'm loving it.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2011 20:12
|
|
|
ODC posted:This is why I love the single whistle starts of OSDA. What would be the problem with doing the same in WFTDA? I have heard some talk about a desire to do this. But it would likely require moving the jammer line back around the track.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 10:56
|
|
|
Spookydonut posted:I have heard some talk about a desire to do this. Do you mean having the jammer line on the other side of the track around the bend? Why would that be a requirement? Just curious.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 15:10
|
|
|
ODC posted:Do you mean having the jammer line on the other side of the track around the bend? Why would that be a requirement? Just curious. Probably because without putting more space between the jammers and the blockers at the start, things would be more of a mess. Although putting a half-lap bewteen them at the start would be too extreme, I think. All you need to do is put a second line between the pivot line and jammer start line, effectively making a "box" for the blockers, and require that they all start inside of it. That way jammers still have space to engage each other before engaging the pack, without the pack being able to get in the way.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 16:43
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:Probably because without putting more space between the jammers and the blockers at the start, things would be more of a mess. Although putting a half-lap bewteen them at the start would be too extreme, I think. I see now. In OSDA they just put the jam and pivot lines and the blockers can start anywhere in between. Sometimes you'll see teams put a single blocker literally right in front of the other team's jammer.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 18:59
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:Probably because without putting more space between the jammers and the blockers at the start, things would be more of a mess. Although putting a half-lap bewteen them at the start would be too extreme, I think. Yeah except if they start more than 20feet behind the back they would be immediately out of play, so you don't need to box the pack in with yet another line.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2011 02:02
|
|
|
WindyMan posted:Probably because without putting more space between the jammers and the blockers at the start, things would be more of a mess. Although putting a half-lap bewteen them at the start would be too extreme, I think. With everyone trying to figure out how to simplify the rules, adding a line to the track is a step in the wrong direction. I've never seen a bout using rules with a one-whistle start, but then again I only ref games under the WFTDA ruleset, and I've only seen about 5 bouts that I haven't reffed, so I can't really comment on how one whistle would be. It certainly makes officiating easier, and solves a number of the start loopholes. Something you might like, WindyMan, is a new form of dumb-start. Due to a clarification that is kind of dumb in my opinion, as a blocker, if you false start behind the jammer line (i.e. a poodle), you are considered to be in front of the rest of the skaters... by a lot. If you move forward from that position, it will become a major false start. So, if you are a blocker and you start behind the jammer line, you have to sit there until the pack catches you. So... what happens if an entire team starts back there. Everyone on that team gets a minor IP penalty, and there's a no pack at the start, so the jammers are released. There will continue to be a no pack situation until the other team comes all the way around. There will not be failure to reform penalties given to the team at the back, as another rules clarification makes it clear that a skater is never compelled to skate clockwise, and that merely maintaining position satisfies making an effort to reform the pack (assuming you are ahead). Apparently this happened at Spring Roll, and I'm really curious to see video. If you've got a power jam, and your blockers are light on minors, you can do this and your jammer may get a few free grand slams before the pack has been reformed. I have a feeling the next WFTDA rules revision is going to have a heavily modified set of rules governing the start of the jam to correct a lot of these loopholes.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2011 04:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 12:27 |
|
|
Mr. Powers posted:With everyone trying to figure out how to simplify the rules, adding a line to the track is a step in the wrong direction. Disagree. It would only make things easier, especially from the fan's perspective. Just having one line to start behind leaves things open to interpretation, as "behind" the line can technically be anywhere on the track, as exampled by the rest of your post. Restricting blockers to a start box would make the definition of the start absolute. Instead of skaters strewn out all over the track, they would all always be in the same place. Banked track games have a start box, and there have never been any problems at the start of jams. Mr. Powers posted:Something you might like, WindyMan, is a new form of dumb-start. Due to a clarification that is kind of dumb in my opinion, as a blocker, if you false start behind the jammer line (i.e. a poodle), you are considered to be in front of the rest of the skaters... by a lot. I gotta hand it to skaters out there for figuring out poo poo like this. Mr. Powers posted:So... what happens if an entire team starts back there. Everyone on that team gets a minor IP penalty, and there's a no pack at the start, so the jammers are released. There will continue to be a no pack situation until the other team comes all the way around. There will not be failure to reform penalties given to the team at the back, as another rules clarification makes it clear that a skater is never compelled to skate clockwise, and that merely maintaining position satisfies making an effort to reform the pack (assuming you are ahead). Fortunately, this will be impossible if the no-minors beta goes permanent. But still, I'm chuckling at the possibilities of what other loopholes in the rules skaters can find in the meantime. Mr. Powers posted:Apparently this happened at Spring Roll, and I'm really curious to see video. I spent pretty much all weekend watching Spring Roll games, although I didn't see any of the women's games. I was transfixed on the men's action. I didn't remember seeing or hearing about this happening with the guys, so it may have been during one of the women's games. The archived video will be available on DNN sometime this week, they said. Speaking of the men's games at Spring Roll, I put together a post on by blog with my observations on the weekend: http://windymanrd.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/history-in-the-making/ Mr. Powers posted:I have a feeling the next WFTDA rules revision is going to have a heavily modified set of rules governing the start of the jam to correct a lot of these loopholes. WFTDA would be wise to see what the guys were doing too. If you think women were trying to bend the rules, you should have seen what the men were getting away with.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2011 04:58
|
|