Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Mucktron
Dec 21, 2005

"But I've been twelve for a very long time"
I couldn't get into Kraken either which is weird because I have loved everything else I've read from Mieville. There was something about the book that felt a tad too much like Neil Gaiman's "Neverwhere" where Oh ho ho! It turns out London is weird and kooky and YOU didn't realize it now did you??.

On the other hand, I'm reading The City and The City and am loving it to bits, though The Scar is still my favorite book of his so far.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin

Junkenstein posted:

I think I had so much fun reading Kraken because it felt like Mieville had so much fun writing it.

He really did, but don't expect more books like that in the future. He's said that Kraken was his last "comedy" for a while.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007

I liked Kraken a lot but I feel like I would have loved it if it was a different story in that setting.

Mieville does that kind of thing so well, having side concepts or things he mentions briefly that you'd love to read a whole book about.

Junkenstein
Oct 22, 2003

I love how Kraken really increases the weird as it goes along. It starts off just hinting at some strange, magical side of London, then Gus and Subby appear, and it's clear that we're going to see some crazy stuff, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's so many ridiculous yet cool concepts after that, I just found myself smiling and shaking my head every couple of pages and what he came up with.

Yeah, of course it owes a lot to Neverwhere and stuff, but I'm a sucker for that kind of magical London crap, so I was obviously going to love Kraken.

nixar55
Jul 25, 2003

She packed my bags last night. Pre-flight. Zero hour nine a.m. And I'm gonna be high as a kite by then.
Embassytown is so good! It's very high-concept and really loving melancholy. The complete opposite of Kraken. I'm still processing the ending (normally not a fan of many of his endings, barring TC&TC.) Can't say Avice is my favorite protagonist ever, but it's not a bad thing. She's just as alien to me as the Hosts.

I think people stuck in love with Bas-Lag will probably enjoy this one more than TC&TC and Kraken. The world is huge and each planet could probably house a different novel.

That Damn Satyr
Nov 4, 2008

A connoisseur of fine junk
I'm really looking forward to Embasytown. I loved all of his other works that I've read... well, except TC&TC... I honestly could NOT get into that one. Seriously, I tried to, but I just couldn't 'get' it. I really loved all the Bas-Lag novels, and even Kraken, however.

Fingers crossed with this one, though!

Beige
Sep 13, 2004
I chose to read The Scar now. While it's not as crazy-weird as Perdido Street Station, I am enjoying the story so far. At around 120 pages in, I still get the feeling that the story is yet to begin, which is GREAT. PSS and Un Lun Dun have taught me that the book is in scene-setting, character building phase and I should expect that about halfway through the poo poo will hit the fan. The city of Armada sounds very interesting.

When I'm done with China's books, I'll be well ahead on my target of reading 26 books this year (I'm a slow, lazy reader).

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
Oh yeah, The Scar luxuriates in its world-building for quite a while, but once the story gets going it really loving gets going. :D

Jealous. I want to read the Scar again (for the 4th time). I'll probably get to it in a couple of months.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007

The Scar is definitely my favorite so far, I just finished The City and The City which was great. I love that Mieville doesn't waste time with exposition and you have to figure out poo poo that's casually mentioned by yourself.

coffeetable
Feb 5, 2006

TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Beige posted:

I chose to read The Scar now. While it's not as crazy-weird as Perdido Street Station, I am enjoying the story so far. At around 120 pages in, I still get the feeling that the story is yet to begin, which is GREAT. PSS and Un Lun Dun have taught me that the book is in scene-setting, character building phase and I should expect that about halfway through the poo poo will hit the fan. The city of Armada sounds very interesting.

When I'm done with China's books, I'll be well ahead on my target of reading 26 books this year (I'm a slow, lazy reader).

For added entertainment, write down now what you think the climax of the book will be.

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
http://io9.com/#!5792672/china-mievilles-embassytown-hurtles-you-through-a-linguistics-thriller-on-another-planet

io9's review. Warning, they get a little bit spoilery, such as revealing the weird nature of the Host's language, and the human Ambassadors. These things are revealed only about a quarter of the way into the book but if you want that to be a surprise, don't read the review. It's akin to being spoiled for the nature of the dual cities in The City & The City.

Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Apr 16, 2011

nixar55
Jul 25, 2003

She packed my bags last night. Pre-flight. Zero hour nine a.m. And I'm gonna be high as a kite by then.
Writing reviews is really tough. Because you want to tell everyone what you liked, but you don't want to spoil. But there's so many ideas going on, the io9 review didn't even really hint at the things I liked best. I don't think they even accurately explained the nature of the Hosts or the Ambassadors. But you've got to give some plot description.

Personally, I don't even read reviews of authors I like a lot because I know I'm going to buy the book anyway and want to go in clean. Then I return to reviews to see what other people said.


As an aside, I really want to re-read The Scar, but don't have a lot of time for re-reads of old favorites. So I thought I'd give an audiobook a try, to listen to as I'm going about my soul-crushing office work. But there's no audio! drat. Had to "settle" for PSS and the reviews say the recording skips chapters later on, despite being unabridged. What a shame. You'd think Random House would want to fix that somehow. However, I kind of like the narrator. Almost sounds like China.

StrawmanUK
Aug 16, 2008
I thought Kraken was his weakest work yet. For some reason novels where London itself is a sort of character leave me cold. I did love Unlundun though!

Pistol_Pete
Sep 15, 2007

Oven Wrangler
For better or worse, Mieville is very much a 'London' writer, in the same way that, say, Dickens or Martin Amis are. For writers like these, London looms large in nearly every work that they produce, whether it's included as a conscious decision or not. It's neither a good thing or a bad thing but you can't take London out of their novels without killing them stone-dead. You just have to accept that if you read Meiville, you're going to get London in one disguise or another!

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin

Umiapik posted:

For better or worse, Mieville is very much a 'London' writer, in the same way that, say, Dickens or Martin Amis are. For writers like these, London looms large in nearly every work that they produce, whether it's included as a conscious decision or not. It's neither a good thing or a bad thing but you can't take London out of their novels without killing them stone-dead. You just have to accept that if you read Meiville, you're going to get London in one disguise or another!

I think he did a very good job of writing a distinctly not-London city in TC&TC.

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
:siren: Really fantastic promo video for Embassytown! :siren:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDm_5iMGSN0

China describes some of the ideas in the book and the inspiration for such things. He also talks about the new covers, and answers some fan questions :3:

He calls the general setting of Embassytown "The Immerverse", and doesn't rule out the possibility of more books in that setting!

Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Apr 18, 2011

Pistol_Pete
Sep 15, 2007

Oven Wrangler

Hedrigall posted:

I think he did a very good job of writing a distinctly not-London city in TC&TC.

Yeah, well I ignored that one, because it didn't fit into my neat little theory. Most theories don't quite fit the facts until you've chopped a few bits off of them.

nixar55
Jul 25, 2003

She packed my bags last night. Pre-flight. Zero hour nine a.m. And I'm gonna be high as a kite by then.
Tour dates:

Tues., 5/24 – Harvard Bookstore,* Cambridge, MA @ 6:00pm
Note: Event will be held at the Brattle Theater

Wed., 5/25 - Toadstool Bookshop, Lorden Plaza, Milford, NH @ 7:00pm

Thurs., 5/26 - World's Biggest Bookstore, Toronto, CA @7:00pm

Sat. 5/28 – University Bookstore, Seattle, WA @ 7:00pm

Sun., 5/29 – Powell's Bookstore, Portland, OR @ 4:00pm

Tues., 5/31 – Barnes & Noble, Roseville, MN @ 7:00pm

Wed., 6/1 – WORD Bookstore,* Brooklyn, NY @ 8:00pm
*Note: This is a ticketed event held at Public Assembly. Purchase tickets here:
http://www.wordbrooklyn.com/event/china-mieville

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




And now, a shiny new short story in the Guardian! Look! Isn't that lovely! Go read it!

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe

MikeJF posted:

And now, a shiny new short story in the Guardian! Look! Isn't that lovely! Go read it!

Holy poo poo, this is awsome.

Mrs. Badcrumble
Sep 21, 2002

nixar55 posted:

Tour dates:

Tues., 5/24 – Harvard Bookstore,* Cambridge, MA @ 6:00pm
Note: Event will be held at the Brattle Theater

Wed., 5/25 - Toadstool Bookshop, Lorden Plaza, Milford, NH @ 7:00pm

Thurs., 5/26 - World's Biggest Bookstore, Toronto, CA @7:00pm

Sat. 5/28 – University Bookstore, Seattle, WA @ 7:00pm

Sun., 5/29 – Powell's Bookstore, Portland, OR @ 4:00pm

Tues., 5/31 – Barnes & Noble, Roseville, MN @ 7:00pm

Wed., 6/1 – WORD Bookstore,* Brooklyn, NY @ 8:00pm
*Note: This is a ticketed event held at Public Assembly. Purchase tickets here:
http://www.wordbrooklyn.com/event/china-mieville

Only weeknights on the East Coast? What's a guy who lives in Connecticut to do :smith:

Pistol_Pete
Sep 15, 2007

Oven Wrangler

MikeJF posted:

And now, a shiny new short story in the Guardian! Look! Isn't that lovely! Go read it!

Nobody but Mieville could pick a concept like that up and run with it.

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010

MikeJF posted:

And now, a shiny new short story in the Guardian! Look! Isn't that lovely! Go read it!

I haven't read Cyclonopedia, but from what I've heard of it I can't help but detect shades of it in this story.

nixar55
Jul 25, 2003

She packed my bags last night. Pre-flight. Zero hour nine a.m. And I'm gonna be high as a kite by then.

Mrs. Badcrumble posted:

Only weeknights on the East Coast? What's a guy who lives in Connecticut to do :smith:

Well, if you live in CT, I assume you have a car, right? Boston or NYC isn't that far of a drive right? (Says the person who takes the subway everyday.)

reflir
Oct 29, 2004

So don't. Stay here with me.

taser rates posted:

I haven't read Cyclonopedia, but from what I've heard of it I can't help but detect shades of it in this story.

I was going to reply to you about how Lovecraft is 'obviously' another big influence in that particular story, but then I started to wonder. If he didn't mention Dunwich at the beginning, how Lovecraftian would I think it was? There's still the gently caress THE OCEAN theme, the 'insane' bird, and the unnaturalness of the creatures themselves, but there wasn't really a feeling of dread. It was weird (in the sense of it being a Weird Tale), but not horrid. Its universe wasn't fundamentally opposed to the existence of living creatures, there was no despair, or terror stemming from a great lack of care and comprehension.

On the other hand, the excesses of the modern world being rejected by the ocean and then coming back to haunt the living is Lovecraftian as gently caress -- if only they'd done more haunting instead of simply inhabiting the same space as us

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
loving wow, I think this may turn out to be his most consistently well-reviewed book ever.

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2011/04/26/embassytown-book-review/

Also, I found it interesting that Embassytown was apparently written after Iron Council but before the other recent novels!

RoboCicero
Oct 22, 2009

"I'm sick and tired of reading these posts!"
Man, I really hate how it comes out almost three weeks ahead in the UK! Well -- at least I can pre-order it for 15 bucks on amazon. I definitely remember getting both The City and The City and Kraken from the UK at a much lower premium than 10 dollars + 3-7 weeks shipping though.

reflir
Oct 29, 2004

So don't. Stay here with me.
:c00l:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin

reflir posted:

:c00l:



:c00l::hf::smug:

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007

My order shipped from amazon! expected May 4th :(

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin

Paragon8 posted:

My order shipped from amazon! expected May 4th :(

Two days before the original release date!

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007

haha, I know.

I was tempted to go to the London signing but copies in foyles are 2x the price of amazon, and I'm not hugely into meeting celebrities anyway.

Benson Cunningham
Dec 9, 2006

Chief of J.U.N.K.E.R. H.Q.

reflir posted:

:c00l:



I want to be part of this club. I want to be part of it so bad.

Edit: At least I have Tiassa coming... which will take me all of one night to read.

Double Edit: I think I might go live in Europe just for their novel covers.

Cobweb Heart
Mar 31, 2010

I need you to wear this. I need you to wear this all the time. It's office policy.
I think the best writer to contrast with China is J.K. Rowling. Rowling can spend a page on one flat, one-dimensional character and make you completely fall in love with them. She is excellent at creating compelling characters. However, the world she built just makes no sense at all if you look at it too closely, to the point of introducing plot holes into the story. China Miéville is kind of the anti-Rowling in that he has a pretty big problem with creating good characters, but his world-building is absolutely top-notch.

reflir
Oct 29, 2004

So don't. Stay here with me.
I'm in two minds about posting my thoughts on Embassytown. On the one hand I have nothing remarkable to say and so won't bother, but on the other there is one really interesting thing that I wanted to point out that you'd usually find in the context of a review. So imagine I've written one, and then read this next block of text (spoilers obviously)

I don't know if Mieville has done this on purpose or not (or if he's even aware of it), but essentially Embassytown is a retelling of Wilfrid Sellars' Myth of Jones. The Myth of Jones is one of the most famous thought experiments from the philosophy of mind, intended to undermine the intuition that a person has a sort of privileged access to, or knowledge of, his own experiences that is always right simply in virtue of him having it. I will quote here from Stich & Ravenscroft's article on folk psychology (What is Folk Psychology? S&R (1994)) because their summary is good and elucidates subtler points in Sellars' original account (from which they quote heavily):

quote:

To counter the idea that our claims about our own beliefs and thoughts are underwritten by a special, introspective faculty that guarantees the truth of those
claims, Sellars begins by ‘‘making a myth ... or, to give it an air of up-to-date
respectability, by writing a piece of science fiction — anthropological science
fiction.’’ (1956, p. 309) For our purposes, Sellars’ myth can be viewed as having
three stages. The first of these is ‘‘a stage in pre-history in which humans are
limited to what I shall call a Rylean language, a language of which the
fundamental descriptive vocabulary speaks of public properties of public objects
located in Space and enduring through Time.’’ (309) At this stage in the myth,
our ‘‘Rylean Ancestors’’ have no terms in their language for beliefs, thoughts or
other ‘‘inner mental episodes.’’ The second stage in the myth begins with the
appearance, in this ‘‘Neo-Rylean culture’’ of ‘‘a genius — let us call him Jones.’’
(314)

quote:

[/I]n the attempt to account for the fact that his fellow men behave
intelligently not only when their conduct is threaded on a string of
overt verbal episodes — that is to say, as we would put it, when
they ‘think out loud’ — but also when no detectable verbal output
is present, Jones develops a theory according to which overt
utterances are but the culmination of a process which begins with
certain inner episodes. And let us suppose that his model for these
episodes which initiate the events which culminate in overt verbal
behavior is that of overt verbal behavior itself. In other words, using the
language of the model, the theory is to the effect that overt verbal behavior
is the culmination of a process which begins with ‘‘inner speech.’’
(317-318; emphasis is Sellars’)

At this stage of Sellars’ myth, the theory is only applied to other people. But in
the third stage Jones and his compatriots learn to apply the theory to themselves.
At first they apply it to themselves in much the same way that they apply it to
others. They infer various theoretical claims by attending to their own behavior.
A bit later, they discover a new way of applying the language of the theory to
themselves. Here is how Sellars tells the tale:

quote:

[O]nce our fictitious ancestor, Jones, has developed the theory that
overt verbal behavior is the expression of thoughts, and taught his
compatriots to make use of the theory in interpreting each other’s
behavior, it is but a short step to the use of this language in
self-description. Thus, when Tom, watching Dick, has behavioral
evidence which warrants the use of the sentence (in the language of
the theory) ‘‘Dick is thinking ‘p’ ’’ ... Dick, using the same
behavioral evidence, can say, in the language of the theory, ‘‘I am
thinking ‘p’ ’’.... And it now turns out — need it have? — that Dick
can be trained to give reasonably reliable self-descriptions, using the
language of the theory, without having to observe his overt
behavior. Jones brings this about, roughly, by applauding
utterances by Dick of ‘‘I am thinking that p’’ when the behavioral
evidence strongly supports the theoretical statement ‘‘Dick is
thinking that p’’; and by frowning on utterances of ‘‘I am thinking
that p,’’ when the evidence does not support this theoretical
statement. Our ancestors begin to speak of the privileged access
each of us has to his own thoughts. What began as a language with
a purely theoretical use has gained a reporting role.
(320; emphasis is Sellars’)

So, in Sellars’ myth, expressions of the form ‘I am thinking that p’ are theoretical expressions which have acquired ‘‘a reporting use in which one is not drawing inferences from behavioral evidence.’’ (321)

Now if, like Sellars, one is concerned to rebut the claim that our reports of
our own thoughts are beyond challenge, the myth of Jones suggests how the
argument might run. For suppose the myth were true. The inner episodes that
Jones hypothesizes in stage two are supposed to be real events that are causally
linked with behavioral episodes. Positing them to account for certain aspects of
the observable behavior of people is, as Sellars stresses, on all fours with positing
molecules to account for certain aspects of the observable behavior of gases.
Thus, for mental states as for molecules, there will be some occasions on which
the inference from the observed behavior to the theoretical claim may be
mistaken. Occasionally, an anomalous event may cause the observed behavior
in the absence of the hypothesized internal state. Similarly, when we have been
trained to give ‘‘reasonably reliable self-descriptions, using the language of the
theory, without having to observe [our own] overt behavior’’ it may occasionally
happen that this process misfires, and that we describe ourselves as thinking that
p, in the absence of the hypothesized internal state. Moreover, though Sellars
himself did not stress the point, there is a more pervasive way in which our
self-descriptions might turn out to be wrong. For it might turn out that Jones was
less of a genius than we had thought — more of a Velikovsky, perhaps, than a
Newton. His entire theory might turn out to be a bad idea. Other thinkers might
discover better ways to explain the behavior that Jones’ theory was designed to
explain — ways that don’t posit internal states modeled on observable verbal
behavior. If that’s the way the myth unfolds, then it may not be just the
occasional theoretical self-description that turns out to be false. They may all be
false.

This whole process mirrors exactly what the Ariekei go through. From a state in which they can only speak of things that are true (observable properties distributed through space and time), a genius arises, who shows them how to represent counterfactuals (speak of things that are counter to reality), resulting in the realization that thinking can happen not just in the environment but also in your own head.

Of course the similarities break down somewhat when you consider that Sellars wrote this story for people who could already represent and had ended up with the delusion that in some things they were like the Ariekei (i.e. that the experience you have of the redness of an apple must be true because you're having it, just like the Ariekei couldn't conceive of falsehoods (there must be a rock that was split and then made whole again because I'm saying it) before human Ambassadors showed up.) but other than that it maps perfectly.

Anyway, there have been a lot of times where I've thought about Sellars' phrasing of 'a piece of anthropological science fiction' and wondered what it would be really like (as opposed to the dry account just good enough to serve a philosophical purpose that you find in Sellars), and now I know.

reflir fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Apr 29, 2011

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
^^^ That's kinda cool I guess.


For everyone waiting for their copies to arrive, why don't you go and read the first 58 pages for free!

AcidCat
Feb 10, 2005

Finally picked up The City & The City - only 40-some pages into it but really digging it so far. Feels very different from PSS and The Scar, but I like that it is still prose that demands your full attention.

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

I just bought Iron Council. I haven't read any of the other Bas-Lag novels but I'm told that won't be too much of a problem. The cover is nowhere near as cool as the one shown in the OP.
However I'm a bit too busy studying right now to start reading a book, especially one as thick as Iron Council.

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe

FreudianSlippers posted:

However I'm a bit too busy studying right now to start reading a book, especially one as thick as Iron Council.

Studying is overrated, start it anyway.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
Here's some audiobook news:

• You can listen to a sample of the Embassytown audiobook here. It's the first Miéville audiobook to not be narrated by John Lee, so it'll be refreshing to have a different voice for a change. However, listening to that sample, the narrator's voice seems way too... I dunno, wistful, and Shakespearean, which is not how I imagined Avice in my head. I'm dying to find out how the audiobook will deal with the Ariekei language; it's rendered weirdly on the printed page, and it'll be interesting to see how they pull it off.

• The fifth book to be released in audio will be The Scar (I wish!) Looking For Jake. It'll be out on September 13th.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply