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Lixer posted:I think a better solution would be to see the situation and cross the street yourself rather than hoping others, who don't know your situation, go out of their way. Oh I do. I walk my dog in open spaces as much as possible so I can see anyone coming and try to preempt every situation by crossing the street or walking in the grass or going the other way. I never purposefully walk my dog within her threshold range (and NEVER within range where she could reach someone). But I do need to get in and out my door and people come around corners, or start running unexpectedly, etc. I only said something because I have, on many occasions, had people, or people and their dogs, or their offleash, out of control dogs FOLLOW me after I have picked up my dog who is clearly freaking out and squirming in my arms trying to bite something (me) and started (trying to) leaving the situation. And not like they were going somewhere on a sidewalk either, out in the middle of fields. It doesn't help that forcing my dog to move (she stops when she sees something upsetting) is a trigger. My dog is a special case of crazy and we're trying to move to a more isolated situation as soon as we can. I just thought I'd point out that some of us are trying really hard to help our dogs and if it's not a huge inconvenience, giving us a little room is much appreciated and REALLY helps out the training process. 
Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Apr 23, 2011 |
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Apr 23, 2011 14:17
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Kiri koli posted:It doesn't help that forcing my dog to move (she stops when she sees something upsetting) is a trigger. My dog is a special case of crazy and we're trying to move to a more isolated situation as soon as we can. I just thought I'd point out that some of us are trying really hard to help our dogs and if it's not a huge inconvenience, giving us a little room is much appreciated and REALLY helps out the training process. Rixatrix fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Apr 23, 2011 |
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Apr 23, 2011 16:17
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Rixatrix posted:This is true. Pi is also set off by forcing him to move or touching him when he freezes, I suppose it's pretty common. Additionally a lot of people are idiots and will approach from behind your back when you're picking up poop or are otherwise preoccupied. Reactive dogs are even more reactive when surprised, and an unprepared owner is going to have a harder time managing the situation. Oh yeah, I forgot about my favorite situation, when I see a trigger approaching while my dog is in the middle of pooping. Luckily she doesn't start freaking out until she's done... At any rate, we just got some good news. The people we've been trying to rent a duplex from had a buyer for it, but the sale fell through so now they're going to rent to us! This mean we can leave our noisy, crowded apartment and live in an isolated area with just a few neighbors and a huge yard. We're really hopeful that it'll make a world of difference for Psyche, as she can relax at home and we can have control over when she sees other dogs (in class or training sessions where we're always ready to make it the best experience we can).
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Apr 23, 2011 18:55
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Fraction posted:I saw the youtube vid you linked before I started a couple days ago, funnily enough. I think I might have been moving too slowly with the treat - I'm going to try really fast moving the treat diagonally towards her and click for her following the treat, bending her elbows, etc, so that she gets the idea better that she isn't supposed to lie down. I might try using her target stick rather than a food lure, as it was pretty hard to fade the lure before when I was getting her in position and feeding for position. Okay so after I whined yesterday about our issues with this, I tried this morning. Got a handful of kibble, lured Lola into a stand, and then moved the treat diagonally toward her. And she went straight into a pretty good bow, then did it almost perfectly for another ten or so reps (the last six or so of which were just with an 'air cookie'). Maybe she was thinking overnight and it just clicked. Crazy puppy.
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Apr 23, 2011 23:03
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So Mona has this new thing where she barks in the mornings while crated. She's quiet all night long in her crate until about an hour before it's time to get up. Clicker training has been pretty successful with her but I'm unsure how to use it to combat morning-only barking. I place a high-value toy/treat in there at bedtime and that usually keeps her busy but I guess the effect has worn off by morning. Any suggestions?
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Apr 25, 2011 16:39
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nolen posted:So Mona has this new thing where she barks in the mornings while crated. She's quiet all night long in her crate until about an hour before it's time to get up. Clicker training has been pretty successful with her but I'm unsure how to use it to combat morning-only barking. I place a high-value toy/treat in there at bedtime and that usually keeps her busy but I guess the effect has worn off by morning. My dog did this for a while. We completely ignored her and got out of bed basically the same time every day regardless. Now she's quiet as a mouse until we get up and let her out, even if we sleep a little later. Unless she's making an unholy racket that will get you evicted, I think ignoring is the way to go. If you give her any attention, that will be that. I laugh when my friends tell me they wish they could sleep past 6 but the dog gets them up...
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Apr 25, 2011 17:17
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It never ceases to amaze me how well clicker training works. Using those Its your choice videos, I was able to train Monty to leave my roommates dogs food bowl alone.  However, there are always new things to train away, so I have a few questions about how to approach some behaviors. He has been growling at new people that come into the house, so I was thinking that having new people give a treat when they come in will teach him that strangers aren't something be afraid of/get defensive about, but happy bringers of deliciousness. He also growls while we are playing tug. With me its just a playful/worked up growl, but if my roommates dog comes to play as well it turns into a serious growl. I'm only concerned about the second one, but my roommate swears that any growling means he is trying to be dominant and that he needs some Caeser poking. My plan for that was to work on drop so that I could stop playing tug before he got to worked up. How to get him to play nicely with the other dog I'm still not sure of. And the last one is that he gets really excited when select people come home and will run off with a shoe. If I keep him away from the shoes he will either go grab a lose sock, or wait until I move to grab a shoe. Other then making him sit or laydown until he calms down, what can I do to stop him from grabbing a shoe and running off with it?
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Apr 25, 2011 20:56
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nolen posted:So Mona has this new thing where she barks in the mornings while crated. She's quiet all night long in her crate until about an hour before it's time to get up. Clicker training has been pretty successful with her but I'm unsure how to use it to combat morning-only barking. I place a high-value toy/treat in there at bedtime and that usually keeps her busy but I guess the effect has worn off by morning. Yeah, my dog went through this phase too. I found that when I tried to ignore her she would continue yapping once every 30 seconds or so forever. What ended up working was yelling a "knock it off" at her. Partially to reduce my stress, but mostly to let her know that yes, I hear you. No, it's not time to come out yet. For some dogs the yell might encourage them to continue since they got some feedback from you. For me, I had some success with it. Success in the sense that my dog would shut up for a while before trying again. Gradually she grew out of it. It sucked. Demon_Corsair posted:It never ceases to amaze me how well clicker training works. Using those Its your choice videos, I was able to train Monty to leave my roommates dogs food bowl alone. Growling while playing is absolutely a-okay. I actively encourage my dog to growl as often as I can because it gets her really hyped up. The caveat is that I feel like it's important to be able to end the game whenever you want. I always try to work on a really solid Drop cue before I really try to have a dog really revved up about tug. Which, well, it sounds like you figured out already. You should not let dogs tug together. Some are fine playing like this. Some are not. (Mine isn't.) It's a really arousing game for dogs, and they're not completely in control of their impulses in this state. I would only tug when the roommate's dog isn't around. I wouldn't worry about encouraging the dogs to play together. If they do, that's awesome. If they don't, that's fine. I always aim first and foremost for a peaceable living situation, and if it improves from there, great. Maybe they'll be okay playing fetch together. Again, some dogs are, some aren't. Regarding the growling at strangers, you've got the right idea. I recommend you keep up a steady flow of treats while CCing, instead of just one or two. If you can get a friend to agree to work on his issues with you, you can put your friend at the threshold and you just rain treats down from the sky. Having it controlled like this is better for the dog. Unfortunately, it can be hard to sign up a friend or two who are interested in helping in this way.
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Apr 25, 2011 22:26
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a life less posted:Growling while playing is absolutely a-okay. I actively encourage my dog to growl as often as I can because it gets her really hyped up. The caveat is that I feel like it's important to be able to end the game whenever you want. I always try to work on a really solid Drop cue before I really try to have a dog really revved up about tug. Which, well, it sounds like you figured out already. Actually, I'm pretty sure I got the solid drop idea from one of your older posts. Are there any studies, or any behaviorists that say that growling while tugging is him getting excited, and not "he is getting dominant" bullshit? I can tell the difference between play and about to bite, but my roommate doesn't seem to believe me and would rather have me poke him. Should the treats be coming from me, or should I have the person feed him a few? The fun part is that its only strangers he has issues with. Once they have been inside for a few minutes its no longer an issue. So I need to find a steady stream of new people to work on this. Any thoughts on calming him down so he doesn't run off with shoes? I also have a question about crates. Due to space constraints, I don't have room for his crate anymore, so right now his "crate" is just his dog bed underneath my desk. I leave him out during the day, so I don't really have a need to be able to close him in it. And if I do, I can always just close the door in my room. Would it be better for him to have an enclosed/covered space to be able to go in to? He seems to love climbing into the back of my closet if I ever leave the door open. ...Actually, maybe i should just make some space and put his bed in there since he already likes going in there.
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Apr 25, 2011 22:44
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Thanks for the advice. I'll keep on the ignoring route. Now if only I can figure out why she's started peeing in the house recently. Time to visit the vet, I guess.
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Apr 25, 2011 23:50
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Crate training can be frustrating! So Norm was doing pretty good with the crate. He was too the point where he would hop inside if I had treats in my hand, and also enter and exit when I gave him the appropriate hand signals and command. He was entering and then laying down (awaiting treats). After he was doing this pretty consistently for more than a day I decided to close the door to see how he would react. He got in and laid down and I closed the door. I did not move away, and I gave him lots and lots of treats. I had the door closed for maybe one minute before opening, he exited calmly, and I gave lots of praise and he seemed fine. He did not whimper or show any signs of stress while the door was closed. However, now he is reluctant to enter the crate! He has gone back to just stretching in to try and get the treat. When I give the hand signal and command he does a lot of jostling and fussing, like he knows what I want (and he wants the jackpot), but he just won't do it. He is such a sensitive dog, any ideas what I did wrong or what to do now? Thanks
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Apr 26, 2011 01:41
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drat, I need to work on off-leash recalls, bad. My lab pup saw a bird, and it was just over - he was gone, and nothing was going to stop him. First time he's seen a bird, I think (stupid city living).
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Apr 26, 2011 17:30
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Alright I've got an issue with a seemingly simple solution but it's been regressing so I need a sanity check. Kaidan has always had an issue with licking people. If you have any exposed skin, chances are he'll sit there for (not exaggerating) 5, 10, 15 minutes licking incessantly. This includes arms, legs, neck, etc. We normally deal with this with a standard 'leave it' and click and treat when he stops, works great. a couple months ago we started having people over on a more regular basis and he did completely fine, he wasn't getting obsessive about the licking at all, however over the last week it's gotten worse than ever before. It's been getting to the point where I can't even let him sit next to guests because every 30 seconds I'm telling him to leave it. Do I need to up it to higher value treats and keep being consistent or is there something else I can try?
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Apr 26, 2011 17:35
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rivals posted:Alright I've got an issue with a seemingly simple solution but it's been regressing so I need a sanity check. Kaidan has always had an issue with licking people. If you have any exposed skin, chances are he'll sit there for (not exaggerating) 5, 10, 15 minutes licking incessantly. This includes arms, legs, neck, etc. We normally deal with this with a standard 'leave it' and click and treat when he stops, works great. a couple months ago we started having people over on a more regular basis and he did completely fine, he wasn't getting obsessive about the licking at all, however over the last week it's gotten worse than ever before. It's been getting to the point where I can't even let him sit next to guests because every 30 seconds I'm telling him to leave it. Do I need to up it to higher value treats and keep being consistent or is there something else I can try? How about a two-pronged attack? If he's near them and doesn't lick, shovel high value treats (teeny tiny chunks of chicken, cheese, liver, etc) down his throat. If he licks, the guest being licked gets up and leaves the room for five seconds. It'll probably take him ten or fifteen times to learn that not licking = great food, and licking makes people go away. Alternatively, if you have a bunch of people around and he's licking a lot of them, you could always put him on a long line and simply remove him from the room for a couple of seconds rather than the people he's licking. But still treat like crazy for anything that isn't licking (and isn't obnoxious, like barking or pawing hard).
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Apr 26, 2011 19:31
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I forgot to mention, we have tried both of the above on fairly short runs to little avail. I've tried isolating him in a room with no one else for ~10 seconds each time and as soon as he comes out he runs right back to whoever he was licking, and if we try to have that person leave the room he just moves on to someone else. It's a really strange issue and he's being pretty persistent about it despite it getting better for quite a while.
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Apr 26, 2011 22:52
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If he changes immediately to someone else, I'd recommend removing him then. You probably were starting to work through an extinction burst - a behaviour will get worse before it gets better. Just keep removing him when he starts licking and plugging him full of treats when he reaches the person/doesn't lick. Use a unique word or noise to mark exactly when he does something to earn a time-out, put him in the room, let him out, etc. Sometimes (okay oftentimes - he's a husky, right?) you just gotta out-stubborn the dog! Is he better if there's less people in the room? (Will he give up more quickly, I mean?) You could always try just having one other person round, removing consistently for licking, and then gradually increase the number of people present after a couple of days or weeks' work.
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Apr 26, 2011 22:58
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Yeah I figured it's mostly a consistency thing and something we need to get through, wasn't sure if there was anything I had forgotten about. I hadn't thought of the number of people, we've been seeing this both with one person over and with 3-4 people over. It is slightly more manageable with only one person so I'll probably focus on working on it in that circumstance a little more. I should also mention this is all with people he is familiar with. We're definitely just going to need to keep on top of keeping a rotation of all three solutions based on circumstance (clicking + treating for being good, and then either removing him or removing the people based on the situation if he starts to lick). And yes, he's a Husky so none of this stubbornness is particularly new or surprising, it's part of the charm In any case, thanks for the help, we won't have much chance to work with him this weekend but over the next two weeks or so we'll have a few opportunities.
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Apr 26, 2011 23:09
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Do you find Kaidan "acts up" more with larger groups? Because I know Buddy tries to get away with more with more people around, and it's up to THEM as much as me to keep him in check. He knows WE don't let him beg or jump up, but OTHER people might let him.  It's possible that Kaidan is doing the same thing, and maybe you could try having your guests actually the commands for Kaidan to knock it off so he knows they're not push overs that will let him get away with it. v v
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Apr 27, 2011 00:26
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Oooooh, yes. He definitely does that, I have no idea why I didn't think about that with this situation. He almost never does it to me, he does it to my girlfriend a little more often (she's not quite as strict with him sometimes ), but he'll do whatever he can get away with to anyone. I will keep that in mind as well, thanks!
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Apr 27, 2011 01:07
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I had my last phone check in with my vet behaviorist today (until we meet in person again May 6th). Two weeks ago Major started on prozac because his behavior was starting to get worse instead of better. Its been amazing! Dr. Feltes even cheered for us. We started on his full dose right away instead of building up and even though its too soon to really be seeing an effect I swear I've seen so much improvement. Major doesn't need to go out every 2 hours, he hasn't been pacing at all, he doesn't stand vigil outside the bathroom when I shower, he's become great on leash and his dog reactivity is barely even there anymore. My only problem is that he really isn't eating very much anymore but that should get better in time. The prozac hasn't lessened his drive at all or made him lethargic. He still obsesses about balls and digs up moles and tracks down rabbits and generally tears around the fields like a maniac, he's just able to chill now. I've started fantasizing about going on hikes this fall and getting coursing ability titles  Thanks kiri koli for sharing your experiences with dog meds, it really made me feel better about the whole thing. Major is turning back into the dog I thought I adopted   That's my good goggie
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Apr 27, 2011 01:37
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I posted earlier about Bailey and cars, and honestly he's not getting any better. I'm trying to work on the Look at That game (or whatever its called) but he's very food motivated so the second I put down the neutral stimulus and get the clicker and treats out, that's it. He's focused on my hands end of story. Should I put him on a leash and do it? Also, he really doesn't respond to "Car coming, shove a million treats in mouth" or "Car coming, we're going to walk away and do something else" other than to bark and lunge at the car. He's actually bitten me on the leg during one longer walk. I can't exactly bring him out when there are no cars around, since I live in an apartment complex and people are coming and going all the time. I usually bring him out 2-3 times a day to do his business and do some sniffing and walking, but its anxiety provoking for him and me, since I'm fairly sure his reactions are fear based. I'm going to get him into classes during the summer but is there anything else I can do in the mean time other than muzzle him?
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Apr 27, 2011 01:46
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^^^ I'm a little confused. When you are out walking your dog and he sees a car, he will lunge and bark at the car no matter what? Or if you break out the clicker/treats, will he orient back to you? If he orients back to you, I would definitely just start breaking out the clicker/treats every time a car approaches. If he is going over threshold every time (won't eat), then the only thing to do is try to keep him at a distance that is under threshold. If you see a car in the distance, can you back him away from the street and then start shoveling the treats in? Have you tried different treats? Is he already muzzle trained? I think that muzzle training is great, but the thing is that you can't just put on a muzzle without a lot of ground work because muzzles can be intensely anxiety increasing. So I understand that you don't want to get bitten, but I would recommend against just forcing a muzzle on only for walks. I have a great video for muzzle training if you like. My dog is also a redirector and bites me a couple times a month during stressful times like class. I have found that a head collar helps and I have learned to identify when she is so over threshold that she will bite and then I make sure I am holding her away from me and not stepping in her line of sight because that is her trigger. If you can recognize your dog's triggers, hopefully you can avoid them and move him out of the situation as fast as possible. Muzzle training is still a good idea, but I wouldn't use it as an every day solution. Instant Jellyfish posted:I had my last phone check in with my vet behaviorist today (until we meet in person again May 6th). Two weeks ago Major started on prozac because his behavior was starting to get worse instead of better. Its been amazing! Dr. Feltes even cheered for us. We started on his full dose right away instead of building up and even though its too soon to really be seeing an effect I swear I've seen so much improvement. Yay, I'm so happy for you and Major! It's so great that you started seeing great results in only two weeks. It usually can take up to a month for the full effect, though I swear I was seeing effects earlier than that too. What dosage is he on?
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Apr 27, 2011 05:54
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Kiri koli posted:^^^ I'm a little confused. When you are out walking your dog and he sees a car, he will lunge and bark at the car no matter what? Or if you break out the clicker/treats, will he orient back to you? Ah sorry, two different things. I can't get him to focus on the neutral stimulus in the Look at that game, but during walks when there are cars around, he'll ignore me unless I literally pull him to me and start shoving treats into his mouth. Even then, you can tell he wants to attack the car. I haven't tried bringing the clicker along yet because its hard to juggle with cookies and the dog leash.
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Apr 27, 2011 12:26
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wtftastic posted:Ah sorry, two different things. I can't get him to focus on the neutral stimulus in the Look at that game, but during walks when there are cars around, he'll ignore me unless I literally pull him to me and start shoving treats into his mouth. Even then, you can tell he wants to attack the car. I haven't tried bringing the clicker along yet because its hard to juggle with cookies and the dog leash. Having to drag him over to you (moving to him might reduce him redirecting at you actually) is how it starts. Don't think its not working already as long as he's taking the treats. He's going to want to still get at the car because its a long process. My general rule is that if you are getting bit you should seek the advice of a professional if at all possible, but here are some suggestions that might tide you over. Do you have access to a car? You might want to try clicking and treating for looking at a non-moving car so he gets that looking at cars is rewarding. Or going to the very edge of a parking lot and clicking and treating for watching cars moving in the distance then working up to seeing them closer. Kiri he's on 20 mg. I love that its only $10 for a 90 day supply although its weird having the pharmacist telling me to make sure Major doesn't drink or operate heavy machinery.
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Apr 27, 2011 15:19
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Instant Jellyfish posted:Having to drag him over to you (moving to him might reduce him redirecting at you actually) is how it starts. Don't think its not working already as long as he's taking the treats. He's going to want to still get at the car because its a long process. That might be an easy way to start him off actually; he's totally okay with non moving cars, and will sniff around them. I own a car, so maybe I'll start with my own car and just spend some time taking him out, letting him sniff the parked cars and clicking when he seems calm. I just feel bad for expecting this to go away so quickly, but I think its because he's otherwise acclimated well. He'll go to his kennel if he's scared or unsure, knows that clicker time is good treats and training time, and he's even started to play with toys. Thanks for the suggestion. EDIT: I also want to make it clear that him biting me was after we ended up walking along a busier street than normal for a while and I think it just became too much for him to handle. I don't think he'd bite me under normal circumstances (just bark and lunge), but given that its happened this once, I feel like it might happen again. wtftastic fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Apr 27, 2011 |
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Apr 27, 2011 15:39
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Demon_Corsair posted:Actually, I'm pretty sure I got the solid drop idea from one of your older posts. Are there any studies, or any behaviorists that say that growling while tugging is him getting excited, and not "he is getting dominant" bullshit? I can tell the difference between play and about to bite, but my roommate doesn't seem to believe me and would rather have me poke him. Re: growling while tugging, I don't know of any super authoritative articles, but here is one that backs up your position. The basic idea is that dogs communicate with their whole body -- not just vocally. So if the dog has a relaxed body position and is otherwise exhibiting play signals you're a-okay. In this case growling is a sign of arousal and excitement and can feed back into the game. And getting a dog really jazzed about tugging is fabulous since you can use it as a training reward instead of food. Re: strangers. The treats can come from anywhere. I would start with them coming from you since you know what you're doing more than your friends. The first idea you want to get your dog to understand is that when strangers are around they get fed. Secondly you can build the relationship between strangers providing treats, but that's secondary. Re: shoes. In this case you want to look at the behaviour you currently have, and decide what behaviour you want instead. Then you want to start getting from point A to point B. Right now running off with shoes is highly rewarding to him, so you're not likely to get anywhere if you try getting him to do something that's less reinforcing. This is where behaviour-math comes in. What first comes to mind is doing crate games like CRAAAAAZY because, if you do it right and really go nuts with training it you can have a dog who has incredible value for its crate. And crate games (as taught by Susan Garrett) have the added benefit of building in the "you never ever ever cross this line until I release you" aspect. So, I guess, start building value for a specific behaviour. If you want him in a down-stay, start playing games where he needs to be in a down-stay to "win". Start slow with easy games and gradually start adding distractions. Always keep the games really really fun, and always work around your dog's current ability. As in, don't ask him for a down-stay when there's something more appealing going on because then a) it's not the most rewarding thing he can be doing and b) he's breaking his down-stay. Don't make failure an option. Eventually if you work enough on making this behaviour highly rewarding to your dog it will eventually become more of an option to use it in more distracting situations. Alternately you can have a special toy that you've really gotten him to love that you bring out only when people are coming in, so he picks up and runs with that instead. Again, substituting another more appropriate behaviour for the one you have currently. Re: your crate question. I don't think it's important to have a crate out if you don't actively use it. I don't have one set up at my place right now. If what you're doing right now is working, I don't see a reason to change it. (Obviously I suggested above to look into crate games... so maybe you'll want to reassess "what works"... it's up to you.) Scenty posted:Crate training can be frustrating! So you went from not having the door closed to having it closed for 1 minute? That's a huuuge leap in difficulty for your dog. If that's in fact how you did it, slow down. Start from the beginning and try again. Next time close the door for a second... then two seconds... then five seconds, only moving on if he's comfortable. Also, his "calm" behaviour might not be what you thought it was. It could have been that he was stressed and kind of shut down. Maybe make crate training more fun and exciting for him. I always look for enthusiasm when working with a crate, not calmness. So, try going back to the beginning with super valuable treats and focus on making it a game for everyone involved. rivals posted:Alright I've got an issue with a seemingly simple solution but it's been regressing so I need a sanity check. Kaidan has always had an issue with licking people. If you have any exposed skin, chances are he'll sit there for (not exaggerating) 5, 10, 15 minutes licking incessantly. This includes arms, legs, neck, etc. We normally deal with this with a standard 'leave it' and click and treat when he stops, works great. a couple months ago we started having people over on a more regular basis and he did completely fine, he wasn't getting obsessive about the licking at all, however over the last week it's gotten worse than ever before. It's been getting to the point where I can't even let him sit next to guests because every 30 seconds I'm telling him to leave it. Do I need to up it to higher value treats and keep being consistent or is there something else I can try? It's funny -- I was just talking to my boyfriend about this same problem. Cohen LOVES to lick him. He tries to address this by uttering out a string of "leave its" that come in such quick succession that they don't have any effect. We talked about it and I mentioned that you have to look at where the reinforcement is coming from. I figure it's coming from 3 places. 1) Licking is a soothing behaviour, and makes a dog feel secure and mellow. 2) Licking is an attention getting behaviour. 3) People are salty -- licking tastes good. When you're clicking/treating when he stops, he's still getting the reinforcement from licking. Now he gets the added bonus of stopping briefly and getting a treat too. Fuckin' eh. Congrats, you've created a behaviour chain! So in this case I would probably remove the opportunity to self-reinforce. As was mentioned I would a) start removing him from the situation if he does it, and b) not giving him the opportunity to practice the inappropriate behaviour. Maybe leash him by a dog bed with a really awesome chew/bone instead. If you stop him from repeating the behaviour and give him something equally rewarding as an alternate you might be able to make some headway into this. wtftastic posted:I posted earlier about Bailey and cars, and honestly he's not getting any better. I'm trying to work on the Look at That game (or whatever its called) but he's very food motivated so the second I put down the neutral stimulus and get the clicker and treats out, that's it. He's focused on my hands end of story. Should I put him on a leash and do it? As Kiri Koli said, it sounds like you may be too close to cars. I'm not sure how much space you have to work with, but working on this behaviour away from the road would be best. It really sounds like he's over threshold. Re: the biting, the head halter might be a good option for you. You want to be careful not to inadvertently create a behaviour chain that you don't want. You want to make sure you're not accidentally creating a lunge -> stop -> reward type chain. Timing can be pretty difficult. First just shovel food in his mouth so he's too busy eating to lunge. Do this behaviour he's had a chance to practice the inappropriate response. Eventually when he's figured out that you're delicious and you provide food when cars are around you can start increasing the length of time you want him focusing on you before you give food. Increase time by small amounts (1 second, 2 seconds) so you're not asking for too much and he falls back into bad behaviour. Re: Look At That, you may want to use a "more than neutral stimulus" if you can't get him to look at it. Make it something he wants to look at, like another dog, or a friend, or a ball. Each dog is different so try to find what'll work for him. You're eventually going to be increasing the distraction level of the stimulus for the game, so it sounds like it's too easy for him and you need to challenge him a bit.
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Apr 27, 2011 15:43
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wtftastic posted:That might be an easy way to start him off actually; he's totally okay with non moving cars, and will sniff around them. I own a car, so maybe I'll start with my own car and just spend some time taking him out, letting him sniff the parked cars and clicking when he seems calm. Something I forgot to mention is that the treat that works really well for me when I'm working on CC (Major lunges at cars too, I know how you feel!) is Easy Cheese or Kong Stuffn paste. He has to lick it which is a calming behavior and it prevents him from taking my fingers off when he's feeling anxious about the situation and taking treats hard. If you choose to use a muzzle in the future the little nozzle fits through the bars too so you can reward him easily.
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Apr 27, 2011 16:03
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a life less posted:3) People are salty -- licking tastes good. The obvious solution is to bath in Tabasco sauce every day
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Apr 27, 2011 16:11
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Kaidan is so retarded I'm certain he'd start to like it a life less, yeah I'm definitely worried about the behavior chain. I was varying times between stopping and click+treat to hopefully help offset that but mostly futile I'd imagine.
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Apr 27, 2011 17:06
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a life less posted:Re: your crate question. I don't think it's important to have a crate out if you don't actively use it. I don't have one set up at my place right now. If what you're doing right now is working, I don't see a reason to change it. (Obviously I suggested above to look into crate games... so maybe you'll want to reassess "what works"... it's up to you.) I think I am going to work on having him lay down and stay. Hopefully, petting and attention will be enough of a reward that he won't be interested in the shoe anymore. ... hopefully.
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Apr 27, 2011 18:41
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Moxie learned to beg! The good kind! It took a couple tries of various lurings and positionings (including having her feet lifted off the ground and up for her) but eventually she wanted some of my chicken salad SO BAD she jumped up in frustration and waved her paws around. click, treat, and you could see the lightbulb switch on. Now we've just got to work on her holding the position for more than a split second. What hand cue do you use, a life less? My verbal cue is going to be "say please!"
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Apr 28, 2011 04:13
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Cassiope posted:What hand cue do you use, a life less? My verbal cue is going to be "say please!" My hand signal is my right hand in a fist. The motion is my arm moving to my chest, and my wrist curling in a bit. Kind of like a "come here" motion but with a closed fist. Obviously you can do whatever works. Though sometimes I know it's tough finding a new hand signal that's significantly different enough from others for new tricks.
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Apr 28, 2011 04:41
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 So apparently in order to get Spirit back in her crate without grumping about it I just had to put my foot down and let her know that NO she will not get back out if she whines about it and YES she has to stay in there all day long while I'm at work or when I leave the apartment. She's back to going into her crate with her normal enthusiasm when she sees me get off the couch, put on my work shoes, and turn off the TV. I feel bad for my neighbors because I know she barked for the first few days that I was firm on it, but I left them notes of apology and monitored the situation with Audacity. Now she doesn't bark at all except for occassional "Hey there's something outside!" barks that she likes to do when she sees a deer or stray cat out there. She's also learned how to high five, and she's inches away from having "dance" down where she gives me both of her hands at once. I know she'll get it sooner or later!
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Apr 29, 2011 15:14
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a life less posted:My hand signal is my right hand in a fist. The motion is my arm moving to my chest, and my wrist curling in a bit. Kind of like a "come here" motion but with a closed fist. Yeah, I ended up settling on both my hands coming together in front of my chest and holding them kinda balled up. Like how a little kid would squeeze their hands together whilst begging their parents for something. I think it works well with the "say please" cue. Now Moxie is training my boyfriend to give her food during dinner. I am going to work on a "place" command so that she can earn tidbits by laying down calmly a few feet away....instead of rolling over, begging, jumping up and trying to sit while wildly waving her paws around and hitting him with them.
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Apr 29, 2011 15:44
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Psst lifeless, hit me up at *poof*, I need your name for sourcing purposes I'll ask you specific trainingstuff when I get my outline fully squared away Kerfuffle fucked around with this message at 06:35 on May 2, 2011 |
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May 2, 2011 02:44
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I've got a question about leash/barrier reactivity. I might get a little long... I got my dog about 3 months ago, she's a bulldog/terrier/mutty mutt mix, and at first she barely had any reactions when walking her outside, other than being scared of the dark and loud cars. She's about 1.5 years old, and probably didn't have much socialization/training as a puppy/young dog, since the people who gave her up to the shelter noted that she was getting out of the back yard constantly and was too hyper. About 3 weeks after I got her, we got jumped by a loose dog on our daily walk in a little neighborhood park. It was a youngish fluffy husky looking thing and I saw it far away, but before I could react and turn around, it started running straight at us, no barking nothing, and then circled us and jumped my dog and was just a nuisance. He wasn't barking or growling, just being super annoying, jumping my dog as she was trying to hide behind me, barking her head off, lunging at him but not really trying to bite (I'm sure she could have if she wanted to). I yelled and told it to go home/etc but of course that didn't work. It was a horrible situation and somehow nobody got bit, but it took me 20 minutes to shake off the dog at someone's back yard where it got interested in another dog and I was able to walk away with Sparky. I was close to tears and she was obviously all riled up. Ever since I've had to deal with leash reactivity on our walks, it's worse when it's dogs barking behind wooden fences, a little more manageable when it's dogs just passing by and I can cross to the other side of the road. We've been working hard on the look command and I do see some improvement, but it's just very very slow. Things we're doing: - I'm trying to keep at a distance that won't put her over her threshold - asking for focus with "look" and click+rewarding - asking for sits and downs further away from other dogs while clicking and treating and feeding her treats - working on general obedience as well, recall, sit, down, touch, place/bed command with the clicker I am working with a trainer, not only for her leash reactivity but also general obedience/etc, and he said that he thinks the positive reward/counter conditioning is the way to go in this case, but he did say it will take a while. Not seeing him until the end of May again and I was hoping I could tell him how awesome our progress is by then. He said that if I wanted/needed, there's other techniques, but if I was willing to put in the work, which I am, he suggests to stick with the positive methods. This is my first dog and I just don't want to mess it up, if anybody has any tips/examples of their own, timelines/experience, I'd really appreciate it if you could share them with me. Btw I have the Feisty Fido booklet. Here's the subject:  IMG_3228.jpg by Elaykins, on Flickr
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May 2, 2011 05:06
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Heknocentric Thinker posted:Ever since I've had to deal with leash reactivity on our walks, it's worse when it's dogs barking behind wooden fences, a little more manageable when it's dogs just passing by and I can cross to the other side of the road. We've been working hard on the look command and I do see some improvement, but it's just very very slow. Congrats, it sounds like you've really done your homework. Good work. Out of curiosity, what else could your trainer have been thinking about to deal with her reactivity? In my mind counter conditioning is kind of the go-to answer for any kind of reactivity, so I'm glad you're going that way first. Pretty much every other type of reactivity treatment involves aversives, which I like to always avoid if at all possible. (For instance, I know someone dealing with bitch aggression in her home, and she's planning on using e-collars as training tools -- she's a good trainer, but yech... the whole thing makes me uncomfortable.) First and foremost, yes, counter conditioning (CC) is really slow. It's one of those methods where you need to measure your success by minute degrees, and be prepared for the occasional bit of regression. Since you've posted here, odds are you've read the OP, but in case you've missed it, this is one of my favourite CC videos: Jack Russel reacts aggressively when blown on. I mention this video since a lot of people misunderstand a core concept in CCing -- you don't have to wait for a dog to offer good behaviour before rewarding with food. The entire goal of CC is to create an association between the stimulus and food. It operates on a subconscious level in the brain where the dog isn't aware anything is going on. A lot of people wait for a second of calmness, or a refocus to you, and that, while good, is shifting the procedure towards operant. The dog needs to operate on its environment to receive a reward. Operant and classical conditioning go hand in hand and you can do both at once while training (ie, use CC in one situation, OC in another). But too many people turn what they think is CC into OC, and they miss out on a vital rehabilitation process for their dog. The only thing CC actually requires from your dog is the ability to take food -- she doesn't have to focus on you, listen to you, react to you, stop barking, etc. She just has to eat. As you progress you'll want to start encouraging focus behaviours, but it's important to know that you can go on with the CCing even when the focus is absent. I like the things you've listed you're doing, but they're all operant behaviours (with the exception of keeping your distance). Does that make sense? So I want to make sure that you're also just grabbing a fist-full of cut up hotdogs and popping them in her mouth one after another while she approaches a stimulus. Be super consistent. My dog, for instance, looks up to me in hopes of a treat each time we pass another dog, or a small child, because I've set up a history of heavy reinforcement when that happens. You want that expectant look -- it might take a while to create, but once you see that you know you're on your way. No one can really offer you a timeline. Just know that CC could take several months for it to really sink in. It depends on your dog, as well as your ability and the ability of your trainer. But it does work. You need to maintain consistency -- that's probably the most difficult part of all of this. It's doing the correct thing EVERY SINGLE TIME you're out walking your dog. You can't slack off. The mechanics are so simple, but it's the consistent application of them that I see people have the most trouble with. One more thing about CC. You need the stimulus to be the predictor of the reward. So you need to wait for the dog to notice the problem before you start shoveling food in. You want to build what Jean Donaldson (one of my favourite trainers) calls the Yippee moment. See stimuls -> Yippee, I get a treat now! -> Feed. And, finally, because I've sperged too much here... Play a lot of games with your dog that focus on the two of you interacting together. Hide and seek, tug, chase, etc. Work hard to make yourself the center of your dog's world of reinforcement. Make every single interaction with you a game. Work = play, and play = work. By injecting fun and reinforcement into your relationship with your dog you'll have a much easier time getting the dog to focus on interacting with you in the presence of distractions. Please ask if any of this isn't clear. I tend to ramble in the mornings.
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May 2, 2011 15:07
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a life less posted:I tend to ramble in the mornings. Hey everyone, ask A Life Less more questions in the mornings. I learn a lot when she rambles.
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May 2, 2011 15:29
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Thank you so much for your response! I think there are a few little things that I'm not doing enough of, that can possibly help Sparky/me with our progress. a life less posted:Out of curiosity, what else could your trainer have been thinking about to deal with her reactivity? In my mind counter conditioning is kind of the go-to answer for any kind of reactivity, so I'm glad you're going that way first. Pretty much every other type of reactivity treatment involves aversives, which I like to always avoid if at all possible. (For instance, I know someone dealing with bitch aggression in her home, and she's planning on using e-collars as training tools -- she's a good trainer, but yech... the whole thing makes me uncomfortable.) He just said that not all his clients are like me and willing to put in the work, there's people who are perfectly happy to put on a choke collar or prong collar because they want fast results and that he will teach them how to use it if necessary. I am not one of those people, so we're sticking with the positive methods. He's giving me the tools I need from what I can tell, and really is showing me what to do with the dog, so I am happy with him. He did say it would take a while, I guess it was just difficult for me to grasp "a while". a life less posted:First and foremost, yes, counter conditioning (CC) is really slow. It's one of those methods where you need to measure your success by minute degrees, and be prepared for the occasional bit of regression. Since you've posted here, odds are you've read the OP, but in case you've missed it, this is one of my favourite CC videos: Jack Russel reacts aggressively when blown on. I mention this video since a lot of people misunderstand a core concept in CCing -- you don't have to wait for a dog to offer good behaviour before rewarding with food. The entire goal of CC is to create an association between the stimulus and food. It operates on a subconscious level in the brain where the dog isn't aware anything is going on. I think this is what I don't do enough. I think I tend to wait for good behavior to start rewarding, and I probably just need to get the treats in her jowls of doom as soon as I see her locking onto something behind a fence/far away. To be honest as a novice dog owner it's tricky to keep everything in mind, clicker, treats, commands, stay calm and positive and upbeat while this beast at the end of the leash is making me look like a dumbass as my neighbors watch on (to be fair, a lot of neighbors also call her cute and precious when she's sitting/down and listening to me). I am definitely working on it though, and I will put some focus on just making it a positive event for her, without demanding she focus on me first. a life less posted:No one can really offer you a timeline. Just know that CC could take several months for it to really sink in. It depends on your dog, as well as your ability and the ability of your trainer. But it does work. You need to maintain consistency -- that's probably the most difficult part of all of this. It's doing the correct thing EVERY SINGLE TIME you're out walking your dog. You can't slack off. The mechanics are so simple, but it's the consistent application of them that I see people have the most trouble with. It's good to hear that it could take a few months. My dog isn't much of a people pleaser, but she will work for food, so she's probably a little slower than others, and I will keep that in mind. The good thing is I am super into rules/instructions and my mind loves following them to a T if I have to, I was just beginning to doubt whether I was doing the right thing, whether we should be further out in the process or what. I do see progress, we have days where we can just walk past dogs without pulling/lunging, which wasn't possible, let's say, a month ago. a life less posted:And, finally, because I've sperged too much here... Play a lot of games with your dog that focus on the two of you interacting together. Hide and seek, tug, chase, etc. Work hard to make yourself the center of your dog's world of reinforcement. Make every single interaction with you a game. Work = play, and play = work. By injecting fun and reinforcement into your relationship with your dog you'll have a much easier time getting the dog to focus on interacting with you in the presence of distractions. Definitely need to do more games with her. My husband tends to be the one that plays games in the yard and I'm the walker/teacher, so I need to get involved in the game part of it as well. Not that I never play with her, just that he does more of it, because after our walks, I'm beat, mentally. Thank you so much for your rambling, just knowing that it'll take a few months is enough I don't mind the work I just don't want to do this for 5 months and then somebody will tell me that "if you had done x, it would have taken only 2". Do you think it's necessary that I find somebody with a calm/collected dog that I practice surprise encounters with? All my friends with dogs have hyper/untrained crazy dogs, so that might prove a little difficult.
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May 2, 2011 16:58
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I'd just like to start this off by noting that Lola is doing really, really well with her reactivity. She hasn't barked at anyone outside for about a week and a half, and prior to that when she has barked it's been only once or twice, and it was easy to regain her attention by simply saying her name. Today, two people on motorized(?) skateboards went past, which neither of us have seen before, and Lola simply gave them a glance (they were about twenty metres to our left) and carried on her way back with her ball. And of course, because nothing stays positive for long, we're running into a new problem: possessive behaviour around other dogs. With Jess (my other, older, very tolerant but strange-dog-aggressive dog) she doesn't do it, and nor does she with my friend's Cairn, but with strange dogs outside she sometimes nips at/snarls at them if they come too close to me (or my bag). She used to growl or lunge at other dogs if they came near her ball when we were playing fetch - after she did this twice, I started putting her ball away when other dogs are around (she only occasionally barks at Jess if Jess grabs the ball indoors - once every twenty or so throws that Jess attempts for, and has only barked at Millie when they both play fetch outdoors once or twice despite north of a hundred throws over the last month or so). Occasionally, she would bark at other dogs that approached my bag (I always carry a bag with me, for a spare tennis ball/treats/poo bags), but since this has happened before today maybe three or four times her entire life with me so far (she's nearly 8 months old now), I wasn't too concerned. However, today she did it to two dogs--she was very tired from playing fetch for longer than usual, and she does get more short-tempered with other dogs if we play fetch for too long without a break, so it was my fault--including a border collie that she usually gets along with well, and a strange staffie. Both times, the dogs approached us, I put her ball in my bag, and she greeted the other dog. With the border collie (this happened first), she let him sniff at me and have a few strokes on the chest without fuss, but then (literally without warning - she'd been happily sniffing him, then just moved closer and snapped at his muzzle). I told her off (not ideal, but I was caught off-guard and just told her to snap out of it), she backed off, I stroked the collie again and gave her a treat instantly after as she didn't react. The second time, the staffie came up to us faster, was more pushy with sniffing at my bag, and she air-snapped at his flank and then at his face when he turned to look at her). I immediately put her lead on and left. How should I deal with this? I'm not sure if she's being possessive of me, or my bag (which is full of the wonders of the world). I can't devalue myself as a resource for two reasons: a) I need her to want to be near me, and we have worked a lot on making my presence and attention a Really Great Thing, and b) there's literally nobody else who can feed, walk and play with her, as my mother often works shifts of 9am-9pm, four or five times a week. I'm also leery of feeding her around strange dogs (I didn't mind with the collie, as he is the most laidback, softest dog I've met), because I don't want to trigger any food aggressive behaviours in other dogs, and I can't reward her for being good with her tennis ball because she used to guard that (she's gotten better at not guarding, and will now often just drop the ball and sniff the other dog, then pick it up and come back to me without fuss). In future I definitely won't be playing fetch for so long (an hour solid, with only two breaks, at about 15 minutes and 30 minutes), but we were both enjoying ourselves, so I kind of forgot. Has anyone got any suggestions in how to deal with this, though?
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May 2, 2011 17:28
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