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Can I Phaser You posted:Will getting an AIC designation in any way hurt my chances of getting into law school? Will they see it as either a "bullshit degree" (which is exactly what it is), or as me "committing" to the insurance industry, or something like that? I have heard that law schools don't like to see you spend a long time in a job, or get too involved, or something like that. Is that in any way true? Should I avoid the AIC? Nah that isn't true in any way. There are plenty of people who work the same job for 2 or 3 years before applying or have CPA certifications or PhDs. That said, don't go to law school unless you get like a 170 or above on the LSAT.
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May 4, 2011 17:51
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Can I Phaser You posted:Fake edit: I understand that some people might be inclined to ask "why the hell are you giving up a 45K job with bonuses to get into a shitload of debt and go to law school", but I have my reasons. I have spent a VERY long time (years) coming to the decision to apply to law school, and finally am set on doing it. Since you're taking the LSAT in about a month, what are your practice results so far?
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May 4, 2011 17:52
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Can I Phaser You posted:Will getting an AIC designation in any way hurt my chances of getting into law school? Will they see it as either a "bullshit degree" (which is exactly what it is), or as me "committing" to the insurance industry, or something like that? I have heard that law schools don't like to see you spend a long time in a job, or get too involved, or something like that. Is that in any way true? Should I avoid the AIC? No, focus on the LSAT rather than assuming that law school admissions officers are exceptionally dumb people. I'm not even sure how this would be on your application since it's not actually a degree.
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May 4, 2011 17:55
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zzyzx posted:Since you're taking the LSAT in about a month, what are your practice results so far? I'm getting better and better, and pretty confident I'll be able to get above a 170 on test day. The first practice test I took, I got a 166. But now I am getting around 171-ish. The main thing tripping me up is the loving logic games--I spend too much time on the diagrams. I am going through the Logic Games Bible, though, and that's helping a lot. ^^^And good point quotison, I don't know why I assumed it would even be on the application. I could just leave it off completely.
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May 4, 2011 18:00
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Can I Phaser You posted:I'm getting better and better, and pretty confident I'll be able to get above a 170 on test day. The first practice test I took, I got a 166. But now I am getting around 171-ish. If you're getting 171ish on your practice you're unlikely to get a 170 on test day. You tend to do worse on test day.
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May 4, 2011 18:12
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  How can I study like this??
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May 4, 2011 18:15
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evilweasel posted:If you're getting 171ish on your practice you're unlikely to get a 170 on test day. You tend to do worse on test day. Hey dont worry, he is a special snowflake with undisclosed "reasons" for leaving a paying job to take on unimaginable debt. These things always work out.
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May 4, 2011 18:24
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TheBestDeception posted:Hey dont worry, he is a special snowflake with undisclosed "reasons" for leaving a paying job to take on unimaginable debt. These things always work out.
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May 4, 2011 18:46
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evilweasel posted:If you're getting 171ish on your practice you're unlikely to get a 170 on test day. You tend to do worse on test day.
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May 4, 2011 18:54
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I did about 5~ points lower in a nice familiar room, and given all the basement of a hotel LSAT horror stories, yeah, I'd expect the average is at least a few points lower. Also Murphy's law, I had the worst (to me) layout, with an atypical-ish logic game, a mentally draining experimental RC, followed by the real and much harder RC after the break. also, and this isn't mentioned much, but it seems well-established that the LSAT's general curve was re-adjusted around 2004 or 2006 (I forget which). I didn't hear about this until about two days before the exam, and when I started focusing on 2006+ era practice tests, my score was consistently a few points lower. so glad to never have to do that ever again topheryan fucked around with this message at 20:07 on May 4, 2011 |
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May 4, 2011 20:03
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evilweasel posted:If you're getting 171ish on your practice you're unlikely to get a 170 on test day. You tend to do worse on test day. You're probably right. My hope is to raise my score over the next few weeks by studying a lot and then just see how I do on it. I'll keep you guys updated. The good thing is that I have a job, so I'm not going to apply if I don't have a high score. nm posted:Is he URM? Because that would work. I'm a white boy 
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May 4, 2011 22:24
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Can I Phaser You posted:You're probably right. My hope is to raise my score over the next few weeks by studying a lot and then just see how I do on it. I'll keep you guys updated. The good thing is that I have a job, so I'm not going to apply if I don't have a high score. Yeah, rule of thumb is 3-5 points lower. I was 5 points below my testing average (last 6-10 tests). Also, like MMBD, I had the least advantageous layout, with the True RC at the very end, leading to some struggling to cross the finishline with fatigue. nm posted:Is he URM? Because that would work. That's not how affirmative action in law school admissions works. Seriously, this profession has enough scary half-crypto/half-overt racist poo poo without the false conventional wisdom that brown = HYS.
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May 4, 2011 22:32
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Can I Phaser You posted:You're probably right. My hope is to raise my score over the next few weeks by studying a lot and then just see how I do on it. I'll keep you guys updated. The good thing is that I have a job, so I'm not going to apply if I don't have a high score. One tip, part of the reason for this is your remember things and perform tasks best in the environment you learned them in (there was a great study that showed if you teach people words underwater they do better recalling them underwater than on land) so the closer you make your practice environment like the real thing, the more you'll reduce it.
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May 4, 2011 22:35
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Can I Phaser You posted:It is not an associates degree--it's just a professional designation. Why would they see it as any kind of degree at all, since it isn't one? Just list it on your resume under "professional qualifications/certifications," just like you would any other professional certification. Unless you don't want to, in which case, don't. Also, if you're making $55,000 at age 23 in the middle of a depression and you're thinking about going to law school, any law school, you're an idiot.
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May 4, 2011 22:36
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The Warszawa posted:That's not how affirmative action in law school admissions works. Seriously, this profession has enough scary half-crypto/half-overt racist poo poo without the false conventional wisdom that brown = HYS. URM is a big help in getting into law schools and jobs. No, it isn't going to help a 150 get into Yale. But it certainly will help someone with a 170 and a decent GPA get into a school a few rungs up the USNWR ranking from where they would go. And there is a drat good reason for it, the system before law school does a pretty piss poor job of getting URMs ready for law school, leading to a very small pool of applicants.
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May 4, 2011 22:38
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The Warszawa posted:That's not how affirmative action in law school admissions works. Seriously, this profession has enough scary half-crypto/half-overt racist poo poo without the false conventional wisdom that brown = HYS. Maybe things have changed since.
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May 4, 2011 23:42
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How strictly are word count limits enforced? My Crim Law final yesterday had a word count limit and I spent the last five minutes getting my answer within the limit. It occurred to me that other people who break the limit could have spent that time writing more stuff and if they're not penalized for it, I'm essentially punished for following the rules.
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May 5, 2011 00:30
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I was 5 points lower on test day. People are going to laugh but I took every LSAT and studied for eight months on top of being good at standardized testing. Over my last ten practice tests I got either a 180 or got one wrong every time. On testday I walked out of the room thinking I'd matched that performance but I ended up getting four questions wrong if I recall. My point is that you should study like a fiend, take the test, hope for the best.
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May 5, 2011 00:34
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Holland Oats posted:How strictly are word count limits enforced? My Crim Law final yesterday had a word count limit and I spent the last five minutes getting my answer within the limit. It occurred to me that other people who break the limit could have spent that time writing more stuff and if they're not penalized for it, I'm essentially punished for following the rules. As they explained it, profs who enforced their word count limits just stopped reading at that point. X words yield Y pages, so they only read those Y pages and grade based on what they read. So, if your profs go by the same process, they won't even see what those students' extra effort beyond the word count got them.
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May 5, 2011 01:15
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My favorite was the professor who would stop reading after the eighth page if you exceeded the ten page limit.
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May 5, 2011 01:19
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Done.
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May 5, 2011 01:54
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Congrats to everyone finishing 
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May 5, 2011 02:26
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HiddenReplaced posted:Done.  me too dukebro, me toodays until I am no longer a resident of Ann Arbor: 88 each one an aeon
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May 5, 2011 03:43
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Congrats to all the goons finishing up. For those of you taking the bar this summer, I would like to impart some wisdom. I took an easy bar (Maryland - 17 subjects) and failed it, then I took a hard bar (Virginia - 22 subjects) and passed it without breaking a sweat. The bar exam is not a difficult exam. By "difficult" I mean intellectually challenging. What it is, is a tedious exam. But tedious? Tedious you can do. You just have to put the time in. The first time I studied for the bar, I half-assed BarBri, and I didn't really start studying until mid-June. I ended up leaving like 8 out of the 10 essays blank, and I left each NBE session waaaay early - like, an hour after it started. The second time, I went to 95%+ of the BarBri lectures, and I followed along in their stupid books during the video replays. I did mindmaps to synthesize the material instead of outlines, and I did a whole bunch of multiple choice test questions. I passed the bar and didn't get rattled by it at all. The bar exam questions are less convoluted than your law school exams. There is no real hiding-the-ball. I did terrible on most of my JD exams, but the essay questions on the bar are pretty easy. IRAC, IRAC, IRAC, rinse-repeat. If you do not know the applicable rule of law, just structure your essay like IRAC anyway, and make up a rule of law and apply it. The people who read your essay spend very little time on it, and they are just looking to see if you can construct a reasonable essay. If your essays are well-written, mostly spot issues, and completely gently caress up when you apply the law to the facts, you'll probably pass. If your essays are written like poo poo, with no IRAC format for the reviewer to follow, it probably doesn't matter what the gently caress you wrote, you'll get downgraded. In short, don't panic about the bar exam. Put your head down, do what BarBri tells you, and know that you'll pass.
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May 5, 2011 03:51
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entris posted:In short, don't panic about the bar exam. Put your head down, do what BarBri tells you, and know that you'll pass. Thank-you for this advice. Everyone I've asked has just given me horror stories.
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May 5, 2011 04:18
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Here's my advice. I've taken a formal BarBri course and studied all summer, taken the bar with just a hand me down Bar Bri book, and taken the bar with two weeks off from a job that otherwise consumed 16 hours a day of my time. Learning the law is most important for the MBE subjects. Think back to whenever you last memorized a ton of stuff and go with with whatever way works for you even if it seems stupid (for me that was making a ton of index cards). You should obviously listen to all lectures if you can but if you can't, I would say if you're going to only listen to certain lectures - go with the MBE ones. The professors will sprinkle in little cheats, like answers that are almost always wrong for each subject and they'll tell you how many questions are devoted to each subject within a topic (like hearsay in Evidence so you know what the "big" topics are and where to focus). Do as many practice questions as you can for the MBE - you'll learn more tricks. Don't bother with the Rule Against Perpetuities if you don't already understand it. The rule for the MBE is - Go to the last person mentioned by proper name. All parties prior to this person take. Next subsequent person not mentioned by proper name takes. All additional parties lose, violation of RAP and property reverts back to grantor. That's it. The law is not as important for the essay topics. Like Entris said, you can get a lot of points just structuring your essay correctly and applying made up law. In fact, when taking states like New York and New Jersey concurrently, New York will tell you not to bother learning NJ law, just to apply NY law and it'll be close enough. The most important lecture for the essays isn't the actual lecture on the topics - its the general lecture on tips and tricks for essays. They'll go over how to structure your exam, ways to earn little points here and there by using the correct terminology in the right places, and they'll tell you which topics are always tested, which are rarely tested, etc. so you know where to place more attention. If you suck at IRAC focus on getting that down. Don't spend more than a day studying for the MPT if you know how to write a memo. Your first few months are really about getting as organized as possible. Very few people can memorize stuff in early June and still remember it in July. In the beginning, you're making index cards and outlines, listening to lectures and making sure there's nothing you're completely confused about (especially for topics you may never have taken before), and preparing for a cram session that is slightly longer than usual. I managed to have a life up until two weeks before the Bar each time I took it. It really doesn't have to be this big thing, if you can write a decent essay (and there will be lots of people taking it who can't), you've already a good chunk of what they're testing on down.
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May 5, 2011 04:56
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I didn't do much memorization until the last few weeks, but I made flash cards every night after the lecture. For most subjects it was only 20 or so, but it really helped identify early on what I had to memorize. I skipped doing this like 5 times and was kicking myself near the end since I was scrambling to make and memorize a whole bunch and I felt like I didn't learn those subjects nearly as well as the others.
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May 5, 2011 06:16
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I used AmeriBar because it was cheaper and because I started studying later than recommended (I studied about 6 weeks), so wanted a program designed for self-pacing. I did a lot of half-assing things during my studying because at the time, I had very little to lose. But I passed anyway, so here are my recommendations. Get an overview of the subject areas first, then do practice essays and MBE questions. I have heard of people trying to just do practice questions and learn that way alone; I wouldn't recommend that. To keep from getting bogged down in the overview, keep in mind that you will be fine if you know most of the material at about a level 5 on a scale of 1-10, in terms of depth of understanding. Once you understand something at about that level, move on to the next rule to learn. Just get exposure to the basics before practicing and memorizing what you find needs to be memorized. Do at least 2-3 practice essays for each essay subject. Don't put them off thinking you should wait until you've done more memorization or more to grasp the things you know you don't understand yet. Just do them and pretend it's exam day and go through the motions of bullshitting what you don't know. This is helpful because you will find areas where you thought you knew the rule, but having to articulate it to answer a question will reveal some nuance you are unsure about. After you've spent the full time, then read the model answer. You will be surprised how close your invented rule statements are to the actual rules, which will boost your confidence. And you'll learn the rules you were unsure about this way. On the essays, this sounds silly, but just remember that what the examiners are looking for is an answer that responds to the prompt "in a lawyer-like manner." That means you should channel the pretentious gunners you know and write the way they talk. You will feel ridiculous, but if you stick with IRAC and lean toward that "lawyerly" writing style, you'll be good even if you don't remember the rule. I only did about 250 MBE practice questions, and this was definitely a mistake. In my state, passing applicants don't get a breakdown of their scores--but I know it was a mistake because I had zero peace of mind after the exam because the MBE was incredibly difficult. Even if you normally like multiple choice tests, the MBE is in another league. Do as many as you have time to do after you get through your overview of the material. And read through the explanation for EVERY answer choice (not just the one you chose, and not just the one that was right but that you didn't choose... ALL of them). This is a great way to learn rule statements, which will also help with your essays. Even for answer choices you didn't even consider, the answer choice explanation may state the rule for another point that you wouldn't have otherwise been exposed to. intensive purposes fucked around with this message at 06:52 on May 5, 2011 |
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May 5, 2011 06:48
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STAT1C_X posted:I'll be sure to keep you all updated if there are any job openings in the Portland, OR area! There aren't, let me just save you the time. Still better than going to law school.
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May 5, 2011 07:25
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For me, taking the bar - and the MBE portion specifically - was about forgetting everything I remembered from 1L (the little that there was). Unlike 1L, they don't give a poo poo about the philosophical implications of the moral choices of why we choose to incarcerate drug users. They care about: Crime 1 has elements A B C Tort 2 has elements A B D E Contract issue 3 has elements B D E F And that's it. Rote memorization of the specific wording of the specific elements of everything. For the vast vast majority of the MBE, they will not try to trip you up. If you have the elements memorized, the answer is easy. Translate this knowledge into making poo poo up on essays. Can you not remember the specific elements of what your state needs for an oral contract sales breach? Thank god you have the MBE memorized, model your made up answer after that. You remember normal contract theory and oh yeah wasn't there another element? That one extra element is uh, good faith and fair dealing! Yeah that makes sense. There's your I R and C done out of IRAC. I know a guy who failed twice (he's working construction at the moment, he bought his own semi with a credit card) and he's a loving moron who loves his philosophical arguments. I'm still convinced he's hooked on everything his 1L professors crammed into his head. BigHead fucked around with this message at 08:02 on May 5, 2011 |
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May 5, 2011 07:56
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People here are always saying you shouldn't go to law school, there are no jobs, nobody's making really money. I say you can't have this job without going to law school.
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May 5, 2011 13:06
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The biggest thing that I did for the bar was do a ton of practice essays. At some point during BarBri it occurred to me that there are only so many ways the Texas BLE will allow them to phrase a Secured question. For example, 75% of the practice essays were on priorities. The next most common topic was proper repossession of collateral. What was the question at my actual exam? Priorities. I also wrote out most of those essays in the CIRAC format the Texas BLE wants, just to get comfortable with it, as opposed to just writing down a list of issues then checking to see if I got most of them. Out of the twelve essays, ten tested the most common topics in each subject. It was totally unsurprising. Being able to skim an essay and think, oh, that is just another will validity question and the rules are ABCD is priceless. I'll say this: I did the Barbri Paced Program, I went to every single lecture, I filled in every blank, I did every MBE set, and I did probably 80% of the essays in the practice book. Was this overkill? Definitely. And because I did the paced program I was going full tilt from the beginning of June, so there wasn't any gradual ramping up like other people have done. But it was what I needed to do to convince myself that I was going to pass. Other friends did substantially less and passed, and they make fun of me because I did so much work. I think the most important thing to do is to take a look at yourself and your study habits and do what works best for you. Don't reinvent the wheel, it's too late.
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May 5, 2011 14:44
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MaximumBob posted:People here are always saying you shouldn't go to law school, there are no jobs, nobody's making really money. The dream of every T3 1L...
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May 5, 2011 14:53
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MaximumBob posted:People here are always saying you shouldn't go to law school, there are no jobs, nobody's making really money. I wish I could pull down $45m/year and also be popular with women ages 25-34
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May 5, 2011 15:00
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We just hired a T10 grad with Vault 100 biglaw experience as a contract attorney. No jobs, die alone. Except for me, I'm going to die wealthy with my hot kickboxing wife.
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May 5, 2011 16:17
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gvibes posted:We just hired a T10 grad with Vault 100 biglaw experience as a contract attorney. Just hired a part time 10$ an hour law clerk that graduated a year ago and has passed the bar, top 25% big name school, publication experience. She was painting full time before this. Wheee, we are all ruined.
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May 5, 2011 18:22
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Congrats Goon Class of 11! That's all I got.
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May 5, 2011 19:01
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Holland Oats posted:How strictly are word count limits enforced? My Crim Law final yesterday had a word count limit and I spent the last five minutes getting my answer within the limit. It occurred to me that other people who break the limit could have spent that time writing more stuff and if they're not penalized for it, I'm essentially punished for following the rules. Every final I've ever taken has had a character count with the professors strict instruction they won't even print anything you wrote beyond the character/word limit.
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May 5, 2011 20:32
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sigmachiev posted:Congrats Goon Class of 11! That's all I got. Don't relax until you have that diploma in your hands. My school contacted me sometime before the bar to inform me that a class credit was deemed incomplete and I therefore hadn't graduated. Got the letter friday and didn't get a response until monday; turns out their system made a mistake and I was fine. Fun weekend
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May 5, 2011 21:01
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Hippokleides posted:Don't relax until you have that diploma in your hands. My school contacted me sometime before the bar to inform me that a class credit was deemed incomplete and I therefore hadn't graduated.
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