AIRPOWER/Cold War - Its literally the first two lines of their hymn

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mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Making helicopters just a bit more "stealthy" could pay off in a serious way if you will be well masked much of the time, but know there will be short windows where you are exposed. Even if you aren't out of detection range or undetectable, if you are able to increase detection time, fool radars that discriminate (by making them think you are too small a target to be a helo), or be completely discarded as clutter due to smaller RCS footprint, you can take a lot of risk out of the short periods where you may be exposed.

A normal helo may be sporadically detected between masking terrain, which frequently can make helo's impossible or hard to engage, but alerts the hell out air defenses and potentially ground forces if they can figure out where you are going. One that is less observable could, in the best case, not show up in these brief non-masked periods, or could show up as clutter or a spurious track or a questionable track and not alert people in the way that an obviously dropped real helicopter would.

edit: regardless, the idea of a helicopter being able to fly across open plains at modern air defenses without being detected is not so realistic.

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 23:14 on May 5, 2011

# ? May 5, 2011 23:09

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# ? May 10, 2024 13:59

NosmoKing: Nov 12, 2004; I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

mlmp08 posted:

Making helicopters just a bit more "stealthy" could pay off in a serious way if you will be well masked much of the time, but know there will be short windows where you are exposed. Even if you aren't out of detection range or undetectable, if you are able to increase detection time, fool radars that discriminate (by making them think you are too small a target to be a helo), or be completely discarded as clutter due to smaller RCS footprint, you can take a lot of risk out of the short periods where you may be exposed.

A normal helo may be sporadically detected between masking terrain, which frequently can make helo's impossible or hard to engage, but alerts the hell out air defenses and potentially ground forces if they can figure out where you are going. One that is less observable could, in the best case, not show up in these brief non-masked periods, or could show up as clutter or a spurious track or a questionable track and not alert people in the way that an obviously dropped real helicopter would.

edit: regardless, the idea of a helicopter being able to fly across open plains at modern air defenses without being detected is not so realistic.

What about the drat NOISE of an approaching helicopter?

Them dang things is loud.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:08

Propagandalf: Dec 6, 2008; itchy itchy itchy itchy

NosmoKing posted:

What about the drat NOISE of an approaching helicopter?

Them dang things is loud.

Special Forces insertion helos use special rotorblades. The engines and displaced vegetation are often louder than the rotors.

Also, "Pakistan" and "Modern Air Defenses" have no business in the same sentence.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:13

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

NosmoKing posted:

What about the drat NOISE of an approaching helicopter?

Them dang things is loud.

Well, there are ways to make them far, far quieter and SOCOM has done this and it's not a secret, really. Also, they may be loud, but masked helicopters are very hard to hear because of the hill/mountain/whatever in the way. If you can hear a chopper, it is at VERY close range relative to air defense systems. The only chopper that comes to mind that is distinctly loving loud and has led to me hearing it before I see it is the Huey. That thing "slaps" something fierce.

When choppers are flying low, even in a a non-masked environment, you'd be surprised just how close they are before you hear them. A loud two-rotor newschopper hovering overhead gives a weird impression of how far out you hear them compared to a modern military chopper at low level.

This link has some info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/mh-x.htm

They're reporting a reduction of 16 dB during flyovers using different rotor designs on an otherwise identical aircraft.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:21

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Propagandalf posted:

Also, "Pakistan" and "Modern Air Defenses" have no business in the same sentence.

Ok, they're no USA or Russia, but they have reasonable and numerous air defense systems.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:26

priznat: Jul 7, 2009; Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

NosmoKing posted:

What about the drat NOISE of an approaching helicopter?

Them dang things is loud.

It's impressive how much of the noise of a helicopter is actually because of the tail rotor. I lived in a place that was trialing one of the MD-500s without the tail rotor (NOTAR) using a ducted fan out the tailboom, and it was way quieter than a regular chopper.

I know this because I lived in a bit of a "colourful" area and it would be flying over my neighbourhood fairly often. Getting out of my car then getting hit by their gigantic nightsun flood light without even realizing there was a helicopter right overhead freaked the living bejeesus out of me.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:28

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

priznat posted:

I know this because I lived in a bit of a "colourful" area and it would be flying over my neighbourhood fairly often.

Cute.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:29

priznat: Jul 7, 2009; Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Hah, no I didn't mean skin colour. It was calgary and it's as cracker as it gets. Just there was a lot of B&Es and a hell's angels clubhouse down the road.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:30

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Oh, ok.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:31

priznat: Jul 7, 2009; Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I'm only racist against Belgians. gently caress those guys.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:33

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

priznat posted:

I'm only racist against Belgians. gently caress those guys.

FN Herstal has some words to say to you >:[

# ? May 6, 2011 00:38

priznat: Jul 7, 2009; Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I like FN so that makes it all the hotter.. Like it's forbidden :h:

# ? May 6, 2011 00:39

in a well actually: Jan 26, 2011; dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

priznat posted:

I'm only racist against Belgians. gently caress those guys.

Millions of one-handed / dead Congolese agree with you. A year without a functioning government is a good reason to end that failed lump of a country. And I can say that because I own a Belgium-made Browning.

# ? May 6, 2011 00:41

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

priznat posted:

I like FN so that makes it all the hotter.. Like it's forbidden

LE OBJECTIONNE!!

# ? May 6, 2011 00:41

iyaayas01: Feb 19, 2010; Perry'd

mlmp08 posted:

Making helicopters just a bit more "stealthy" could pay off in a serious way if you will be well masked much of the time, but know there will be short windows where you are exposed. Even if you aren't out of detection range or undetectable, if you are able to increase detection time, fool radars that discriminate (by making them think you are too small a target to be a helo), or be completely discarded as clutter due to smaller RCS footprint, you can take a lot of risk out of the short periods where you may be exposed.

A normal helo may be sporadically detected between masking terrain, which frequently can make helo's impossible or hard to engage, but alerts the hell out air defenses and potentially ground forces if they can figure out where you are going. One that is less observable could, in the best case, not show up in these brief non-masked periods, or could show up as clutter or a spurious track or a questionable track and not alert people in the way that an obviously dropped real helicopter would.

edit: regardless, the idea of a helicopter being able to fly across open plains at modern air defenses without being detected is not so realistic.

Pretty much this. Remember, LO/"stealth" is not about making you invisible...it is about decreasing the RCS enough to give you some sort of advantage when used in conjunction with other tactics (flying nap of the earth, jamming, etc.), as described above.

mlmp08 posted:

Well, there are ways to make them far, far quieter and SOCOM has done this and it's not a secret, really. Also, they may be loud, but masked helicopters are very hard to hear because of the hill/mountain/whatever in the way. If you can hear a chopper, it is at VERY close range relative to air defense systems. The only chopper that comes to mind that is distinctly loving loud and has led to me hearing it before I see it is the Huey. That thing "slaps" something fierce.

When choppers are flying low, even in a a non-masked environment, you'd be surprised just how close they are before you hear them. A loud two-rotor newschopper hovering overhead gives a weird impression of how far out you hear them compared to a modern military chopper at low level.

This link has some info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/mh-x.htm

They're reporting a reduction of 16 dB during flyovers using different rotor designs on an otherwise identical aircraft.

Also this. On the subject of making helicopters quiet, here's a really interesting article from Air & Space about a CIA project to allow a modified MD500 to insert some dudes to place phone taps on a line inside of North Vietnam literally right overhead of the guards. Well worth a read.

mlmp08 posted:

Ok, they're no USA or Russia, but they have reasonable and numerous air defense systems.

True, but how many of them are pointed at Afghanistan? I don't know, but if I had to wager I'd bet that the bulk of their air defense attention is directed towards India.

# ? May 6, 2011 02:03

NosmoKing: Nov 12, 2004; I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

iyaayas01 posted:

True, but how many of them are pointed at Afghanistan? I don't know, but if I had to wager I'd bet that the bulk of their air defense attention is directed towards India.

Back to ending the goddamn world.

The Soviets built the Dead Hand system.

If they got a signal that there was a nuclear detonation on USSR territory, the (wonderfully reliable) soviet computer system called Moscow. If there was no answer from Da Kremlin, it was assumed that Moscow was a puddle of green glass.

Then they launched everything they had in one fell shitfit of nuclear destruction.

Oh, goodie.

Last I heard, it's still running.

Sleep tight, kiddies...

# ? May 6, 2011 02:49

Pirate Radar: Apr 18, 2008; You're not my Ruthie!
You're not my Debbie!
You're not my Sherry!

NosmoKing posted:

Back to ending the goddamn world.

The Soviets built the Dead Hand system.

If they got a signal that there was a nuclear detonation on USSR territory, the (wonderfully reliable) soviet computer system called Moscow. If there was no answer from Da Kremlin, it was assumed that Moscow was a puddle of green glass.

Then they launched everything they had in one fell shitfit of nuclear destruction.

Oh, goodie.

Last I heard, it's still running.

Sleep tight, kiddies...

It would be grimly hilarious if some Soviet higher-up had seen Dr. Strangelove and decided that might not be such a bad idea after all.

# ? May 6, 2011 04:16

OWLS!: Sep 17, 2009; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

NosmoKing posted:

Dead Hand

Probably one of the better writeups that I've seen on it was actually in Wired.

http://www.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/17-10/mf_deadhand?currentPage=all

Personally, I would take it all in with a bit of a grain of salt. Gun stores in America are filled with high-speed low-drag slippery-from-their-own-blubber "Seals" and Russia is just as equally full of nuts that worked on various "secret projects."
But considering the USSR's track record of making reality consistently stranger than fiction, who knows.

# ? May 6, 2011 05:00

thesurlyspringKAA: Jul 8, 2005

Just for everyone jerking off the Bone.

The thing costs us a quintillion dollars to feed and run, and the job its doing in Afghanistan is far FAR better done by MQ-9s. They use more fuel on takeoff than every MQ-9 in Afghanistan uses in a week. Also, GPS guided bombs suck dog-dick in this conflict. Some 19 year old JTAC pinned down by a sniper is NOT going to call in reliable grids in any way, and the Bone only breaks contact because a two thousand pounder would make ANY insurgent run away.

I guess if anyone had questions on RPA usage in our current wars, I could lend a little bit of insight...

# ? May 6, 2011 07:00

Force de Fappe: Nov 7, 2008

mlmp08 posted:

Well, there are ways to make them far, far quieter and SOCOM has done this and it's not a secret, really. Also, they may be loud, but masked helicopters are very hard to hear because of the hill/mountain/whatever in the way. If you can hear a chopper, it is at VERY close range relative to air defense systems. The only chopper that comes to mind that is distinctly loving loud and has led to me hearing it before I see it is the Huey. That thing "slaps" something fierce.

Two others come to mind: the Sea King and the Chinook. Sea Kings are just ridiculously loud in any possible way, like a persistent ships horn as an encouragement to shipbroken sailors. It's unbelievable. The Chinook on the other hand has this weird thud-thud-thud sound that's really distinct.

Rotor design is heavy poo poo.

Dead Hand is kinda sinister, but there's still an element of human control in the decision loop. It's amazing that the Russians have given out any information about it at all considering how hermetically sealed their archives usually are.

# ? May 6, 2011 08:43

Sunday Punch: Mar 4, 2009; There you are in your home, and the soldiers smash down the door and tell you you're in the middle of World War III. Something's gone wrong with time.

iyaayas01 posted:

Also this. On the subject of making helicopters quiet, here's a really interesting article from Air & Space about a CIA project to allow a modified MD500 to insert some dudes to place phone taps on a line inside of North Vietnam literally right overhead of the guards. Well worth a read.

That was indeed very interesting. I remember reading about special blade tip geometry for reducing blade-vortex interactions...
Here it is, it was called Blue Edge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBS1NRsYuF8

As well as being quieter it loses a lot of that distinctive thwacking sound. I guess there's only so much you can do to mitigate the acoustic signature of a helicopter though. The Comanche had a ducted fan for a tail rotor and a 5-blade main rotor which would certainly help.

# ? May 6, 2011 11:57

daskrolator: Sep 11, 2001; sup.

mlmp08 posted:

Ok, they're no USA or Russia, but they have reasonable and numerous air defense systems.

Here's a write up on Pakistan's air defense systems, they are poo poo.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/07/modernizing-pakistani-air-defenses.html

# ? May 6, 2011 13:04

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

daskrolator posted:

Here's a write up on Pakistan's air defense systems, they are poo poo.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/07/modernizing-pakistani-air-defenses.html

Meh, their biggest problems are with long-range SAMs designed primarily for FW threats. They have quite a bit of ok short-range SAMs that can pose serious problems for helicopters, which is what we were discussing.

edit: what likely served the helicopters in that mission best was knowledge of where air defense units and just how quickly they can gear up. It's not like most air defense units just sit around radiating 24/7 with missiles ready to fire, even in Pakistan. I don't know if there are SAMs around the military academy in Abbattobad (sp?).

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 15:40 on May 6, 2011

# ? May 6, 2011 15:35

Scratch Monkey: Oct 25, 2010; 👰Proč bychom se netě�ili🥰kdy� n�m P�n Bůh🙌🏻zdrav� d�💪?

I would imagine the bulk of Pakistan's air defenses are gathered on the borders it shares with India. They're undoubtedly a lot more concerned about an attack by air from the Indian Air Force than they are the Afghan one, or from the American one in Afghanistan for that matter.

# ? May 6, 2011 15:49

daskrolator: Sep 11, 2001; sup.

mlmp08 posted:

Meh, their biggest problems are with long-range SAMs designed primarily for FW threats. They have quite a bit of ok short-range SAMs that can pose serious problems for helicopters, which is what we were discussing.

edit: what likely served the helicopters in that mission best was knowledge of where air defense units and just how quickly they can gear up. It's not like most air defense units just sit around radiating 24/7 with missiles ready to fire, even in Pakistan. I don't know if there are SAMs around the military academy in Abbattobad (sp?).

�Now no helicopter will be able to escape after entering into Pakistani territory,� the official [Pakistani] sources said.

http://arabnews.com/world/article154005.ece

# ? May 6, 2011 17:20

Propagandalf: Dec 6, 2008; itchy itchy itchy itchy

daskrolator posted:

�Now no helicopter will be able to escape after entering into Pakistani territory,� the official [Pakistani] sources said.

http://arabnews.com/world/article154005.ece

*deploys SA-7s*

*Wonders why they can't hit anything*.

# ? May 6, 2011 17:25

Flikken: Oct 23, 2009; 10,363 snaps and not a playoff win to show for it

daskrolator posted:

�Now no helicopter will be able to escape after entering into Pakistani territory,� the official [Pakistani] sources said.

http://arabnews.com/world/article154005.ece

# ? May 6, 2011 17:35

Smiling Jack: Dec 2, 2001; I sucked a dick for bus fare and then I walked home.

Dont MANPADS have a major drawback in regards to target aquisition and identification in that you're basically depending on the operator to not fire on friendly helicopters?

# ? May 6, 2011 19:07

daskrolator: Sep 11, 2001; sup.

Smiling Jack posted:

Dont MANPADS have a major drawback in regards to target aquisition and identification in that you're basically depending on the operator to not fire on friendly helicopters?

Yes but that's also a problem with most missiles.

If my memory serves me when India was invited to Red Flag half of their losses were due to friendly fire, their command and control has a ways to go. Friend or foe identification is still a huge issue as well.

# ? May 6, 2011 19:23

Ygolonac

Nov 26, 2007

pre:

*************
CLUTCH  NIXON
*************

The Hero We Need

"If it flies, it dies." - The Infantry Creed

# ? May 6, 2011 19:45

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Smiling Jack posted:

Dont MANPADS have a major drawback in regards to target aquisition and identification in that you're basically depending on the operator to not fire on friendly helicopters?

US MANPADS has an IFF transponder, but it's also possible for a gunner to "miss" with the IFF and get no response when there really ought to be one. Doctrinally, you will IFF all targets before engaging, but if it's a fast FW aircraft or a late detection RW target, the operator may have to rely on visual ID in order to engage before the target escapes or engages friendly forces.

It has been my experience working with Marine MANPADS units that fratricides are a serious concern, in that they tend to shoot down one of their own at each WTI course.

# ? May 6, 2011 22:04

Frozen Horse: Aug 6, 2007; Just a humble wandering street philosopher.

daskrolator posted:

Yes but that's also a problem with most missiles.

If my memory serves me when India was invited to Red Flag half of their losses were due to friendly fire, their command and control has a ways to go. Friend or foe identification is still a huge issue as well.

The ratio of friendly-fire losses to total losses may be a bad metric, since it can be distorted by a low rate of losses due to enemy action. What was their ratio of friendly-fire kills to total kills? I think both of these ratios must be considered to answer whether the force in question is more solution or problem.

# ? May 7, 2011 00:44

KillerKatten: Oct 26, 2010

From looking around related pages from one of the links posted earlier about the stealth helicopter I found this.

Although I've read conflicting eye(ear) witness reports about the noise of the helicopters involved.

# ? May 7, 2011 01:26

_firehawk: Sep 12, 2004

Honestly, If the seals didn't have enough time to destroy the rest of that stealth helicopter, why couldn't the military have hit it with a missile strike from a drone? I can't believe there were no drones in the area.

# ? May 7, 2011 03:47

Smiling Jack: Dec 2, 2001; I sucked a dick for bus fare and then I walked home.

_firehawk posted:

Honestly, If the seals didn't have enough time to destroy the rest of that stealth helicopter, why couldn't the military have hit it with a missile strike from a drone? I can't believe there were no drones in the area.

Probably because the raid was going to cause the pro-Western elements in Pakistan enough problems without capping it off with an airstrike in the local equivalent of Highland Falls.

# ? May 7, 2011 05:17

thesurlyspringKAA: Jul 8, 2005

_firehawk posted:

Honestly, If the seals didn't have enough time to destroy the rest of that stealth helicopter, why couldn't the military have hit it with a missile strike from a drone? I can't believe there were no drones in the area.

Why cant you believe that?

# ? May 7, 2011 07:32

iyaayas01: Feb 19, 2010; Perry'd

_firehawk posted:

Honestly, If the seals didn't have enough time to destroy the rest of that stealth helicopter, why couldn't the military have hit it with a missile strike from a drone? I can't believe there were no drones in the area.

Smiling Jack posted:

Probably because the raid was going to cause the pro-Western elements in Pakistan enough problems without capping it off with an airstrike in the local equivalent of Highland Falls.

This, also UAV != armed UAV. While I'm sure there was a drone or two providing ISR support, they weren't necessarily armed.

# ? May 7, 2011 08:33

Alaan: May 24, 2005

If an airstrike was an option we would have just flattened his entire compound. Dropping a spec-ops team in without permission is frowned upon. Air striking a friendly(ish) nation without permission is REALLY frowned upon.

# ? May 7, 2011 10:20

Scratch Monkey: Oct 25, 2010; 👰Proč bychom se netě�ili🥰kdy� n�m P�n Bůh🙌🏻zdrav� d�💪?

Also the courtyard was full of women and children.

# ? May 7, 2011 13:32

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# ? May 10, 2024 13:59

Craptacular: Jul 11, 2004

Also the building was most likely full of intel that would be impossible to recover if it was blown up.

# ? May 7, 2011 16:38

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > AIRPOWER/Cold War - Its literally the first two lines of their hymn

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