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WarLocke posted:If wet navies will work for you, try Weber's Safehold books. The protagonist for them shares some of the same Harrington-like perfection, but it's something of a core plot point that he's superhuman, and most of the time he's just a mysterious smug advisor type. Zeroisanumber posted:The Aubrey–Maturin series of novels by Patrick O'Brian, but those take place at sea in the early 1800's. I was mostly referring to space combat on a fleet scale. I've read Hornblower and Aubrey-Marten both, and I enjoyed them, I just wish there was something as good out in space. There's also a ton of stuff with fighters as the prime movers out there, like the X-Wing books, the hilariously bad Space Carrier, the old Wing Commander books and so on. Not much of it is any good, mind you, but it exists. I have read the Starfire books that you refer to (In Death Ground and all that.) Those are probably my favorite in the genre precisely because they avoid the Mary Sue stuff. Not entirely, mind you, since there's often one super-admiral who wins the day. (Antonov, then Prescott, then Trevayen.) But because the scope of the novels is so wide that one character doesn't dominate the narrative. But surely there has to be something else? (And no, a Banks Culture book doesn't count, because the Mary Sue is the ship, not the admiral!  )
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May 5, 2011 17:54
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Hey the X-Wing books are awesome as long as you skip the Stackpole ones. Aaron Allston knows how to write some awesome funny characters.
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May 5, 2011 18:13
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jng2058 posted:(And no, a Banks Culture book doesn't count, because the Mary Sue is the ship, not the admiral! I'm not sure if they're Really Mary sues in the usual sense. They tend to be either flawed and surprisingly human, or not really explored in depth. That, and from what I've read, "I am awesome and blow things up with superscience" tends to only serve as a backdrop to the real focus of the books. In a more related sense, the X-Wing books were an integral part of my childhood and an some of them are still awesome. I did like Aaron Allston's books better. I must admit, in retrospect, Wedge is a wee bit of a Mary Sue. E:Ninja'd E2: And I just remembered the real Mary Sue of the series, Corran Horn or whatever his miserable name is. Felime fucked around with this message at 18:18 on May 5, 2011 |
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May 5, 2011 18:16
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Felime posted:I'm not sure if they're Really Mary sues in the usual sense. They tend to be either flawed and surprisingly human, or not really explored in depth. That, and from what I've read, "I am awesome and blow things up with superscience" tends to only serve as a backdrop to the real focus of the books. But Wedge is awesome... (I'll admit, I've intentionally underexposed myself to Star Wars EU. I've no doubt he gets out of hand.)
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May 5, 2011 18:18
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The best way to murder Rose is to duct tape him to the front of a Charger and set it loose in an arena full of urbanmechs with 8/8 pilots. Mech pinball.
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May 5, 2011 18:19
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I wouldn't call Culture characters Mary Sues, they have superhuman abilities, because that's because they're superhuman. They're normally either post-singularity AI or a genetically modified cybernetically advanced super-spy/diplomat/thing. If they WEREN'T that awesome, you'd have to ask why.
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May 5, 2011 18:20
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Felime posted:I'm not sure if they're Really Mary sues in the usual sense. They tend to be either flawed and surprisingly human, or not really explored in depth. That, and from what I've read, "I am awesome and blow things up with superscience" tends to only serve as a backdrop to the real focus of the books. Oh God, Horn. I'd forgotten about him. Didn't he end up as a Jedi or something? I'll grant you that the X-Wing books were better than most, and that the later Allston books were better than the earlier ones, but this just points out how thin the field is when the best examples are Star Wars Expanded Universe stuff!
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May 5, 2011 18:23
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To quote the reaction to the 40k derail that was half this length, "don't poo poo up the thread, guys".  (I don't actually care, given that I don't know half the books you people are talking about. But if we're going to be jumping on derails for being off-topic, it might as well be universal. Plus, spite.)
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May 5, 2011 18:27
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PoptartsNinja posted:Let's Read Main Event! Jesus Christ, that is just a big loving trainwreck right there.  Really though, what the hell WAS he thinking when he wrote that garbage? "This seems to be top book material!  " or something?Jeremiah is just such a unlikable douchebag that no GOOD writer would EVER turn him into a protagonist, possibly an rear end in a top hat antagonist that dies a couple of chapters in but certainly not the HERO, the one we should all be cheering for! Or am I overexaggerating and you are just kidding? 
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May 5, 2011 18:28
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Koorisch posted:Really though, what the hell WAS he thinking when he wrote that garbage? I'm not exaggerating, in fact I'm downplaying some things otherwise I'd be quoting whole chapters. The only defense--the only possible defense I can think of--is that Jeremiah Rose is actually a tongue-in-cheek poke at Michael A. Stackpole. If you read him as a parody of Stackpole's characters, he makes a little more sense. ... I just can't credit the author with writing this book tongue-in-cheek; not without an 'about the author' page to find out who he is and what he normally writes. Edit: But, don't get me wrong. An rear end in a top hat protagonist can be a lot of fun, provided A) they get their comuppance at the end (Flashman) or B) everyone else is worse (Commissar Cain). They also have to be really good and creative with their dickishness; it can't just be petty bullshit. Jeremiah Rose has a black belt in petty bullshit.
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May 5, 2011 18:53
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PoptartsNinja posted:
Aren't they jjust the same person anyways? Also, Flashman tends to get his comuppance during the story, repeatly,not just at the end. In fact, he (90%) of the time, ends up better off at the end of the book.
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May 5, 2011 18:57
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There're enough differences between Cain and Flashman that I consider Cain an homage; not a copy. Not the least is, as you mentioned, Flashman constantly gets punished for being an rear end in a top hat until he manages to tie the whole thing together at the end and turn it into a net victory (which is his only real heroic trait). Cain, on the other hand, typically just lucks or intuits into a solution and spends the middle 30-60% of his novels flailing about in blind terror and/or dropping blatant foreshadowing which he can get away with since his stories are theoretically a memoir. Edit: But yeah, to finalize the example: You occasionally bump into someone in the Flashman novels who's actually a good, hard-working individual. In the Commissar Cain novels, everyone is a murderous douchebag because that's just how that setting works.
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May 5, 2011 19:02
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PoptartsNinja posted:... I just can't credit the author with writing this book tongue-in-cheek; not without an 'about the author' page to find out who he is and what he normally writes. ... It's Stackpole writing under a pen name, poking at his own characters.
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May 5, 2011 19:04
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Also in Cain's favor, he's actually pretty competent at certain things and, for being a commissar, he's a decent guy. vvvvv Yeah, I just found that too. It's worse than we thought. Look at his other works. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 5, 2011 |
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May 5, 2011 19:05
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WarLocke posted:... It's Stackpole writing under a pen name, poking at his own characters. Nope, he actually isn't.
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May 5, 2011 19:07
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Thing is, they were probably going to include an "About the Author" page, but it got left on the cutting room floor by accident instead of one of those
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May 5, 2011 19:17
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Wedge would be a Mary Sue in most books but by Star Wars standards he's a grounded, relatable character. Even Corran isn't that bad compared to Jaina Solo.
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May 5, 2011 19:24
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the JJ posted:But Wedge is awesome... (I'll admit, I've intentionally underexposed myself to Star Wars EU. I've no doubt he gets out of hand.) Frankly, what doesn't get out of hand after a while with the SW EU? The whole thing is a massive clusterfuck these days.
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May 5, 2011 19:26
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Defiance Industries posted:Wedge would be a Mary Sue in most books but by Star Wars standards he's a grounded, relatable character. Even Corran isn't that bad compared to Jaina Solo. Jaina started off a likable, not too over-the-top character. Then she made the transition from the Young Jedi Knights books into the mainstream books and people decided she had to outdo Uncle Luke in everything imaginable in order to be a badass in her own right. Cue her promptly out-flying three starring members of Rogue Squadron put together (in terms of 'at her age', at least, a feat Luke was certainly not capable of,) becoming known publicly as an incarnation of a goddess of death (granted that was psyops at work, but still,) and all around over-the-top bullshit, up to and including pulling the same stunt Luke did with his father, on her very own twin brother. (Don't even get me started on what the jackholes did to Jacen. That's long past my point of DisContinuity for Star Wars.)
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May 5, 2011 19:33
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PoptartsNinja posted:Cain, on the other hand, typically just lucks or intuits into a solution and spends the middle 30-60% of his novels flailing about in blind terror and/or dropping blatant foreshadowing which he can get away with since his stories are theoretically a memoir.
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May 5, 2011 21:35
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PoptartsNinja posted:There're enough differences between Cain and Flashman that I consider Cain an homage; not a copy. You get to see him doing these things. And he thinks it's all just luck. He's completely convinced that he's a total coward and just does what he does because it's the easiest way of not getting killed or exposed as a fraud. Basically, the Cain books are a comedic tragedy about a hero who thinks he's a failure.... Wait a minute, it's Kai Allard-Liao done well! 
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May 5, 2011 21:52
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Arquinsiel posted:
Kai Allard-Liao could kick a demon prince in the junk but would then go into a depressive funk because Justin Allard did it to a C'tan.
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May 5, 2011 23:30
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Let’s Read: Main Event (part 8) Chapter 8 Solaris City, Solaris 3 August 3054 Days elapsed since book start: 103 Mercenaries recruited since book start: 2 Mercenaries recruited off-screen: 1 Things accomplished since book start: 0 Protagonists introduced since book start: 3 Protagonists mentioned but not yet introduced: 1 Antagonists introduced since book start: STILL 0 Chapters Spent on Northwind: 5 After How, I don’t know, since Rose presumably came back to the bar straight from Mister Warwick’s. Bartender telepathy, maybe? The bartender is curious how things went; and Jeremiah momentarily contemplates murdering him. … Wait, what? Main Event posted:Even after a second mouthful Dillon hadn’t moved from the spot, or given an indication that he was planning to. Rose looked around the bar and wondered if the comatose barman would be missed, but things were still slow at the Pelican. Uh… buh… whaa?! Anyway, the bartender asks if Mr. Warwick made an offer. Jeremiah says he did. We then get a lot more infodump about Warwick; who isn’t a noble but is instead a rich merchant. Warwick isn’t well loved in the Black Hills; which immediately makes Jeremiah feel smug and satisfied about his earlier choice to be a dickhead. The Bartender then says that everyone on Solaris is either a Loser, a Fool, or a Shark; calls himself a fool, and proclaims that Jeremiah is either a Loser or a Shark. Nope, he’s a fool too. quote:“So, what about Warwick’s offer?” Dillon pressed. … Sure. Whatever. The bartender then calls over a  She then earns some kudos-points in my book by accidentally uppercutting Jeremiah Rose. Main Event posted:Rose was still partially bent over the bar when Jaryl lifted one arm to brush the hair from her face. Perhaps the hair in her eyes obscured the fact that she was too close to Rose to bring her hand up that fast. Her left arm caught him under the chin, slamming his teeth together and catching the top of his tongue between the incisors. We are then treated to another two-paragraph description of how beautiful Jaryl is. She has an eyepatch, which makes her awesome. She’s described as a “ravaged beauty,” as if the loss of an eye immediately makes her unsympathetic and/or ugly in the eyes of the reader, and I now vaguely recall that she’s about to get murdered. Main Event posted:“I can’t be altogether sure at this moment, Jaryl, but I believe I will be forever grateful to Dillon for introducing us.” He held out his right hand and tried, almost successfully, to suppress a cough. See? Jeremiah can be almost civil sometimes. I mean, sure, he’s making nice with a woman with an eyepatch who may be a pirate, is certainly a Mechwarrior, and dresses like a 1940s criminal prostitute in red latex and leather; but she’s a total babe! She’s clearly far more trustworthy than the rich guy who was willing to just give Jeremiah a Charger for… what, an hour of real work fighting in the Solaris VII arena? The bartender introduces Jeremiah as Mister Rose; and Jeremiah introduces himself as ‘Jeremiah, to my friends’; which I’m going to slip into the ‘unintentional jerk’ pile since he never told poor Dillon his first name. Jaryl is cautious at first until she learns that Rose hasn’t signed on with Mister Warwick (her competition for the championship). Jaryl then immediately challenges Jeremiah to a drinking contest. The drink being, not the Steiner or Davion PPC, but something far worse than four shots of grain alcohol with two shots of something else to cut it. Alongside a long, stupid story that hinges on there being pelicans on Solaris (there aren’t), The Pelican Shooter contains: Main Event posted:Before them were two tumblers, each half-filled with a brownish liquid Rose only guessed was alcohol. Celery, or onions, or something equally undesirable floated on top. As the crowd gathered closer, Dillon reached onto the tray and grabbed a sardine with each hand. He waved each fish above his head, prompting the crowd to cheer. Someone needs to make art of that. Alternatively, I will give bonus points to anyone who makes (and drinks) a Pelican Shooter with double bonus points if you live (Note: please don’t actually try a Pelican Shooter; I don’t want anyone to die trying to drink a whole sardine). Anyway, the point is the drink smells awful (and is ON FIRE); so Jeremiah taps into his SPACE MYSTIC abilities to, well… it’s stupid. Main Event posted:Closing his eyes and holding his breath, he opened his throat as wide as he could. He poured the drink down in a single smooth motion, barely feeling the fish slide over his tongue on the way to his stomach. This actually works. You can drink like this. It’s really stupid and fairly dangerous, so I don’t recommend it. Anyway, Jeremiah beats Jaryl handily, and she praises him—and somehow, his victory means that drinks are free in the bar that night; which is stupid but we’re supposed to feel good about Rose being able to drink fish. Jaryl then tries to escape Main Event posted:Rose couldn’t understand the announcer’s words, which were in Chinese but might as well have been Greek as far as he was concerned. rear end in a top hat. Anyway, nobody in the Inner Sphere speaks Chinese anymore. The Capellans speak Capellan; which is based on Chinese but isn’t… and this is a point of contention that I have with the later Battletech books. The Capellan Confederation has its own language (that is not Chinese); but the assumption was made so often that it is Chinese that Chinese is now Capella’s national language. Honestly, if it was done simply to avoid confusing the Capellan language with the Capellan people, I wouldn’t mind—but it wasn’t. It was done on accident because hey, they’re Chinese, right? They all know Tai-chi or Kung Fu and wear slippers and robes and blah blah blah Space Racism. Anyway, Jaryl then talks a bit about why nobody will sell Jeremiah a ‘Mech. It’s because he’s a complete unknown—he’ll make the bookies’ lives hell. That is the summary of over six paragraphs worth of infodump. We then learn that Jeremiah plans to leave in ten days, period; which is a ludicrously short turnaround. … Hey, you know who makes ‘Mechs? Wolf’s Dragoons. And you know who sells ‘Mechs to mercenaries? Wolf’s Dragoons. And you know who runs Outreach? Wolf’s Dragoons. Just saying. We are then treated to a three page description of a fight between a Stalker and a Banshee-S (the Stalker wins, which is bullshit) on the holoscreen; but it doesn’t matter. One of Mr. Warwick’s minions turns up and shoots at Rose with a Gyrojet pistol, but he’s a terrible shot and hits Jaryl by mistake. Rose jumps across the table to try to save her but is probably responsible for pushing her in the way of the shot.  ... she has an eyepatch on her left-e... y'know what? gently caress it. Good enough. Then the chapter ends.
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May 6, 2011 00:52
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I could totally make that drink. My concern is that sardines are genearally packed in oil: while an alcohol fire is very low temp and so you can kind of snuff it right before you drink it and not burn your face off... sardine oil might burn at a much higher temp, and the fish itself might act as a wick. Also it could get pretty loving hot. "brown alcohol", however, is easy to figure out, and I can throw some pickled onions or a celery stalk (how could someone possibly be unsure which is which???) in as well. e. OK I amazingly have a can of sardines "in soybean oil", and my darkest liquor is the sailor jerry's spiced rum. I have no brown soda to cut it with though. I somehow have no pickled onions, we must be out, and no celery either. I do have raw onion. It is only 5 pm and I have to drive in a bit so this will have to wait till later this evening. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 01:05 on May 6, 2011 |
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May 6, 2011 01:01
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I don't... I don't want anyone to actually drink one of these. Also, the implication is that there's enough alcohol to completely cover up the fish.
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May 6, 2011 01:12
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Wait, so they introduce this character, spend paragraphs describing her, probably spend most of the chapter characterizing her, and then kill her off at the end of the chapter? What was the loving point of the chapter, then?
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May 6, 2011 01:34
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Gothsheep posted:Wait, so they introduce this character, spend paragraphs describing her, probably spend most of the chapter characterizing her, and then kill her off at the end of the chapter? Wait, let me check, it's... PoptartsNinja posted:Things accomplished since book start: 0 ... Oh.
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May 6, 2011 01:37
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PoptartsNinja posted:I don't... I don't want anyone to actually drink one of these. Sardines are not that big. I don't think it'd take all that much booze in a glass to cover a sardine. Also I will probably chew the sardine a bit before I swallow because I don't want to choke on it. Honestly if I made a bloody mary, I bet the sardine would taste fine in it. I even have V8. It's just not brown. Gothsheep posted:Wait, so they introduce this character, spend paragraphs describing her, probably spend most of the chapter characterizing her, and then kill her off at the end of the chapter? I think the point of the chapter was to introduce the idea that Rose has a halo of doom around him. Most people have no problem identifying him as an rear end in a top hat they want nothing to do with; or at best, someone they can exploit (Warwick). But someone like Jaryl, who fails to quickly detect what Rose really is, dies as a direct result of his previous actions (ridiculously pissing off Warwick for no reason). We can therefore assume that both his sister and his pilot girlfriend are doomed as well; he will get them killed in some indirect manner as a result of his idiotic and selfish actions.
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May 6, 2011 01:39
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PoptartsNinja posted:Anyway, the point is the drink smells awful (and is ON FIRE); so Jeremiah taps into his SPACE MYSTIC abilities to, well… it’s stupid.  Learn something new every day.
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May 6, 2011 01:57
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What really burns me up is that Rose, according to the wiki, gets his hands on a Warhawk at one point. A mech like that deserves better than to be piloted by the hands and brain of an unmitigated rear end like Rose.
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May 6, 2011 02:15
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That IS total bullshit. Reinhardt goddamn Steiner pilots a Masakari.
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May 6, 2011 02:54
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From the Warhawk wiki article: "While unable to fire all of the ER PPCs at once it could use a volley fire strategy to manage its heat." Noob question: What's the point of putting more weapons on a Mech if it can't fire them all? I can understand "can't fire all its weapons without serious heat buildup" but not begin unable to fire them all, period. Isn't there a better use of weight than putting redundant weapons on a 'Mech?
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May 6, 2011 03:41
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Well, there's a couple of reasons. The first, of course, is Fluff vs Rules But then there's range considerations, quite a lot of the official designs carry more weapons than they can control the heat for, but they typically have complementary ranges. For example LRMs are often backed up by medium lasers, pulse weapons paired with ER variants, and so on. As you close you switch to other weapons that are more efficient. Some designs have a bit of redundancy built into them as well while for others the overlap are 'weapons to use while you're shedding heat' And some designs are Riflemen. But to be fair, as AA `Mechs, they're pretty much Alpha-Alpha-Cool down for four turns, so it kinda makes sense. Kinda.
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May 6, 2011 03:47
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KnightLight posted:From the Warhawk wiki article: AFAIK, some mechs can fire their 3 guns in a 3/3/2/3/3/2 pattern which is reasonably legit, and sometimes you want a massive alphastrike with the hope of just fragging the other mech. However yeah it is generally an awful design. See also the rifleman.
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May 6, 2011 03:47
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KnightLight posted:From the Warhawk wiki article: Having the ability to unleash a powerful Alpha Strike is always good. Also gives you the ability to maintain combat effectiveness even when an arm is removed. But generally yeah, I prefer a smoother heat curve to my mechs. Give me the Warhawk C over the Prime any day.
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May 6, 2011 03:51
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Well the C is doubly absurd because of the Targeting Computer + Pulse Laser combination. And when those pulses are Clan LPLs, ouchie. vvv Also it means that the Warhawk doesn't have the potential weakness of the awesome, which is approaching it from the direction that it can't shoot/shoot as much.
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May 6, 2011 03:53
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KnightLight posted:From the Warhawk wiki article: That phrasing is somewhat iffy; a Warhawk Prime can fire all 4 ERPPCs, but the heat buildup forces and immediate shutdown check (IIRC) - and would have the chance to immediately cook off ammo if it carried any. But the mech would be crippled for the next turn or two until it bled off all the extra heat. There are times you may want to fire all 4 guns, especially since the Prime carries a targeting computer. Have a pretty good target number for a center torso hit? Might be worth risking the heat for a potential 60 damage in one spot. Or, having 4 ERPPCs means even if you don't normally fire all 4 each turn, you can lose one without immediately losing effective damage output.
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May 6, 2011 03:53
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KnightLight posted:Noob question: What's the point of putting more weapons on a Mech if it can't fire them all? I can understand "can't fire all its weapons without serious heat buildup" but not begin unable to fire them all, period. Isn't there a better use of weight than putting redundant weapons on a 'Mech? There are two good reasons: Range brackets are a good one - the Penetrator is an excellent example of this. It fires everything, it massively overheats. But it's designed to not fire everything at once. It has two specific brackets that it fires in: long range guns and short range guns. It has the proper heat sinks to fire one set or the other at any given time, since that's what it SHOULD be firing at a given time. This is the most 'efficient' approach, and mechs that do this properly are usually considered excellent designs. The other is burst power. Take the RFL-4D for example. It has 15 single heat sinks. It's carrying two PPCs and two Large Lasers - 36 heat worth of guns. It can never fire them all at once and keep the heat down. But when you get a good target, you can blast the poo poo out of something in a devastating salvo, then spend the next turn or two making yourself scarce while you cool down and wait for another good opportunity. Or, more positively, your heat afterwards doesn't matter because the other guy is very dead from your alpha strike.
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May 6, 2011 03:53
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WarLocke posted:That phrasing is somewhat iffy; a Warhawk Prime can fire all 4 ERPPCs, but the heat buildup forces and immediate shutdown check (IIRC) - and would have the chance to immediately cook off ammo if it carried any. It does. WarLocke posted:There are times you may want to fire all 4 guns, especially since the Prime carries a targeting computer.
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May 6, 2011 03:54
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Yeah, all Warhawks carry Targeting Computers. It was the most notable feature of the design.
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May 6, 2011 03:56
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