|
Yea, bathroom circuit isn't supposed to feed anything else (at least in modern code), but as far as I can tell it does in this case. I cannot tell how exactly the circuit is wired, but all three outlets in question are GFCI. I can only say for sure that the bathroom and a motion sensing light on the patio (and directly above one of the patio outlets) worked before the power washing. The behavior when trying to reset the GFI is that I press the button all the way in, but it doesn't and power is never delivered to the outlet. Same thing happens on all three outlets. My understanding is this would happen when no power is reaching the outlet in question, but since I can't find any other GFI's that would be tripped I can't figure out where the problem could be. I may pop into my attic and see if I can find any of the wiring to try to see if I can figure out what's upstream from what.
|
#
?
May 8, 2011 00:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 21:58 |
|
|
Pull the GFCI out of its box, touch a circuit tester to its feeder terminals and see if that lights up. GFCIs won't reset if they aren't getting power and that test will make sure that the GFCI is getting juice at least.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2011 00:30
|
|
|
 So, I pulled off the GFCI outlet in the bathroom to try to test it, but it's an old outlet and rather than having screw terminals it has wires coming out of it that are joined in screw nuts. See below:    Additionally, when trying to do a quick test with my multimeter on a known-good outlet to make sure I'd be able to test voltage correctly if it was there I created a nice big spark and now that outlet no longer works. I did get up in the attic to try to figure out how the wiring was run. It appears that the circuit comes into a junction box in the attic and from there each come from a separate wire out of the junction box (which splits off to several other things as well, it appeared). edit: in case you can't tell from the photo above, the AC wires run into the "input" side of the GFCI and the wires coming out of the "Load" side are just capped. BeastOfExmoor fucked around with this message at 01:48 on May 8, 2011 |
|
#
?
May 8, 2011 01:43
|
|
|
So for your dead receptacle I suspect some sort of short fried it pretty bad at some point inside it. Was the multimeter set up correctly? What brand is it? Does it still work? Replacing it will probably do the trick. Use the terminals and not the back stab holes. As for the GFCIs you have three possible problems: 1) They all decided to die at the same time. (Highly unlikely) 2) There is a fault up circuit or down circuit of the gfci. 3) They are not receiving any power. Get a non-contact voltage detector for testing. They are like $10. They are great for troubleshooting live circuits you don't want to take apart. I would also try to figure out what circuit is powering these if possible. It probably won't be if there is a break in the circuit. If you are really lucking you can shut the power off and check the continuity of the circuits. If you find one with no continuity they you have found the circuit and know the problem. Anyway I hope that helps.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2011 04:54
|
|
|
So here's an odd one. I have some under-cabinet lighting in my kitchen that's currently controlled with one of those little plug-in switches (it plugs into the outlet, has a switch on the top, lighting plugs into it). I would like to clean this up a bit by using one of the combination outlet / switch units I've seen at Home Depot. I picked one up recently but discovered afterwards that the switch on it is intended to control another load, and not the outlet it shares a box with. The existing outlet is a two-outlet GFCI, and it shares a breaker with a few other outlets around the kitchen, including the fridge. Additionally, I think this is the outlet that actually provides the GFCI for that circuit (house was built in '99, I don't think the breakers are GFCI). Is there any way for me to set it up within the existing 1-gang box that's there to keep GFCI on the whole circuit, and keep the rest of the outlets powered all of the time, but just switch the actual outlet there in that box?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2011 20:22
|
|
|
Just to be clear, the photos above are of the GFCI in the bathroom, not the non-GFCI outlet I killed. The outlet I killed (and most of the outlets in my house ) is a two prong, non-grounded and is presumably original to the house which is 60yrs old at this point. Not shocked that I killed it. I'm using the $5 Harbor Freight multimeter and I apparently did have it set wrong. It still works, although the voltage seems to be reading higher than it should I don't think that's unusual for a product of such quality. I may grab one of those voltage detectors and see what I can find out. I really want to just redo all the old wiring in the house so that it makes some sort of sense and is all grounded, but I think it's way over my head as far as running the actual wire down through the walls and keeping everything to code.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2011 21:19
|
|
|
IOwnCalculus posted:So here's an odd one. I have some under-cabinet lighting in my kitchen that's currently controlled with one of those little plug-in switches (it plugs into the outlet, has a switch on the top, lighting plugs into it). I would like to clean this up a bit by using one of the combination outlet / switch units I've seen at Home Depot. I picked one up recently but discovered afterwards that the switch on it is intended to control another load, and not the outlet it shares a box with. Unless the switch/outlet is 100% wired internally, you should be able to wire it up to control the outlet it's attached to. Black coming in goes to the brass on the switch. Black on the switch to brass on the outlet. White coming in to white on the outlet. Code-wise, that needs to be a GFCI. If it is the first outlet in the string and it is providing GFCI protection, then you're kinda screwed. GFCI breaker, or creative rewiring. I drew a picture. Red = wire nuts.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2011 00:19
|
|
|
That's the weird thing - the one I have has two wires coming out of it for "switched load", two posts at the bottom for "to breaker", and two posts at the top covered by a sticker that are "only for connecting to additional outlets". It is actually also a GFCI outlet - found it on Lowes' site here. I suspect that the only combination devices I can go with here that will wire up the way I want are going to be non-GFCI, and I don't really want to try and do any 'creative' rewiring. How much of a pain in the rear end is it, really, to swap a breaker?
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2011 01:11
|
|
|
BeastOfExmoor posted:Just to be clear, the photos above are of the GFCI in the bathroom, not the non-GFCI outlet I killed. The outlet I killed (and most of the outlets in my house I don't think those are HRC fused so you might have fried the electronics inside it. Not being fused properly also messed up your outlet. Throw it away. Get something like an Extech EX330. Generally everything from Fluke, Extech, Ideal, and Amprobe are pretty decent. You should only use DMM that are UL listed. You can check all the UL listings for a company here: http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html Some companies put UL listings on things that aren't UL listed. It would be a chore to ground all your old outlets. It might be worth it to rewire the house, but its something that you would want a professional electrician to take on. You can actually replace the outlet with a GFCI outlet that will offer similar protection but will not actually be grounded. Hope that helps.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2011 01:38
|
|
|
Do any of you guys have experience with the in-wall surge protector/suppressors? The job I am on right now has two massive TV's that have very little clearance, and I want them on surge protectors. It looks like the things that replace the outlet itself are the only way to go and still fit behind the TV. http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-7280-W-Suppressor-Receptacle-Industrial/dp/B001FB64JE/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1305068112&sr=8-15
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2011 23:54
|
|
|
dietcokefiend posted:Do any of you guys have experience with the in-wall surge protector/suppressors? The job I am on right now has two massive TV's that have very little clearance, and I want them on surge protectors. It looks like the things that replace the outlet itself are the only way to go and still fit behind the TV.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 00:01
|
|
|
grover posted:Install an SPD on the panel that feeds them, and you can protect everything. Most commercial/industrial applications will put SPD on every level of power distribution, as it provides much better protection than just power strips. They're pretty cheap; I even went and put a low-end one on my house for about $30 IIRC; I posted about it earlier in this thread. This is relevant to my interests and I know nothing about them. Your old post includes a dead amazon link. Here's one that works for anyone interested. From what I've read so far, I understand how to install it. I understand how to know if it's still working. I don't understand what happens and how if it detects a surge. Can you explain/point me a good resource to learn about it?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 03:44
|
|
|
Mostly they are just a Metal Oxide Varistor connected to an earth ground. Over a certain voltage they conduct electricity very well, otherwise they are an insulator. This shunts the power away from your electronics and helps protect them. There are a variety of other surge protection methods but that is the most common.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 04:26
|
|
|
tworavens posted:Mostly they are just a Metal Oxide Varistor connected to an earth ground. Over a certain voltage they conduct electricity very well, otherwise they are an insulator. This shunts the power away from your electronics and helps protect them. SPD are usually protected by relatively small breakers; this is to protect against fire, should the MOVs activate and not stop. It works because a 30A breaker doesn't trip at 30A; it trips on a time delay curve, where the higher you exceed it, the faster it trips, but a 30A breaker may still let 150A through for a brief period of time before tripping. And even when it does trip, it takes a fraction of a second to do so; household breakers are typically rated for 10,000A fault interruption with main breakers rated higher. (FYI, you should replace it this ever happens.) Different SPDs are rated for different joule of surges; the right one needs to be selected for each application. grover fucked around with this message at 10:53 on May 11, 2011 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 10:49
|
|
|
You are both awesome. Thank you.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 14:09
|
|
|
insta posted:Anyway, I'm wanting to wire an outlet to my garage for a welder. I picked a sample one on Harbor Freight's website just for numbers. None of the welders I found used more than 40A @ 240v. So, I figure I should run a 50A line. Eyeballing a 50 foot run (subject to measuring), are the following SKUs on Home Depot's website what I'd need to put this together? I'm wondering if my question got lost in the sea of fan-related ones 
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 14:39
|
|
|
I just moved into a space with 208 3-phase. If I have any equipment that's designed to work off of 240, do I need a separate transformer for each circuit, or can I run 208 to a sub-panel that converts to 240 and feeds multiple circuits? Any recommendations on this?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 14:53
|
|
|
grover posted:SPD are usually protected by relatively small breakers; this is to protect against fire, should the MOVs activate and not stop. It works because a 30A breaker doesn't trip at 30A; it trips on a time delay curve, where the higher you exceed it, the faster it trips, but a 30A breaker may still let 150A through for a brief period of time before tripping. And even when it does trip, it takes a fraction of a second to do so; household breakers are typically rated for 10,000A fault interruption with main breakers rated higher. (FYI, you should replace it this ever happens.) I understand the safety factor of putting it on a breaker in case it doesn't stop and keeps shorting current to ground...but are you saying it only gives you a really short time period of surge protection? I don't know about where you're at but here lightning strikes can seem to stick, or double strike. I can sometimes count two seconds before a strike is done hitting an object during a bad electrical storm. If this breaker pops in the first few hundred milliseconds of the strike doesn't that mean I'm back to putting all that voltage through my house wiring? Maybe I don't understand all of how these protect me. I have a buttload of electronics in my home (own an electronics company) but have thus far not installed one of these devices. I do, however, have all of my high dollar equipment on AVR capable UPSs. The bigger problem I have at my place, actually, isn't direct strikes to the utility pole outside. It's the dang near-strikes that induct current into the wiring in my attic. I've never had a direct strike or severe line surge. The times I've had mild line surges my AVR stuff has perfectly protected my nice equipment. But two friggin times have I had a powerful nearby strike induct enough voltage into my network and video lines in the attic to blow up equipment. Frustrating and difficult to guard against, unless theres some miracle device I'm unaware about for this.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 16:15
|
|
|
Hillridge posted:I just moved into a space with 208 3-phase. If I have any equipment that's designed to work off of 240, do I need a separate transformer for each circuit, or can I run 208 to a sub-panel that converts to 240 and feeds multiple circuits? Any recommendations on this? Are you positive your equipment won't run on 208? I've only run across very very few things that need to be either 208 or 240 (high end and quite old UPSes....think nasty early 90's filing cabinet sided Lieberts).
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 19:53
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Are you positive your equipment won't run on 208? I've only run across very very few things that need to be either 208 or 240 (high end and quite old UPSes....think nasty early 90's filing cabinet sided Lieberts). I really don't know right now. It's more of a "what-if" type question. I think most of our stuff is currently 120 anyway.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 21:06
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Are you positive your equipment won't run on 208? I've only run across very very few things that need to be either 208 or 240 (high end and quite old UPSes....think nasty early 90's filing cabinet sided Lieberts). Nah, I have a brand new pump that I have to provide 240 for, it's not uncommon for companies that are focused on residential products to only use 240. Hillridge posted:I just moved into a space with 208 3-phase. If I have any equipment that's designed to work off of 240, do I need a separate transformer for each circuit, or can I run 208 to a sub-panel that converts to 240 and feeds multiple circuits? Any recommendations on this? You could do the latter, but do you really have that much equipment that needs it? You would have to feed a large buck-boost transformer from your 208V/3ph source, then feed a 240V panel from the secondary side of the transformer. Seems like an expensive solution if you only have 1 or 2 pieces of equipment at 240. http://www.acmepowerdist.com/pdf/Page_104-109.pdf
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 22:28
|
|
|
chedemefedeme posted:I understand the safety factor of putting it on a breaker in case it doesn't stop and keeps shorting current to ground...but are you saying it only gives you a really short time period of surge protection? I don't know about where you're at but here lightning strikes can seem to stick, or double strike. I can sometimes count two seconds before a strike is done hitting an object during a bad electrical storm. If this breaker pops in the first few hundred milliseconds of the strike doesn't that mean I'm back to putting all that voltage through my house wiring? So, basically, if the surge is strong enough to trip the SPD breaker, the SPD probably wouldn't have helped much anyhow. There are a lot of other sources of transients to consider in an industrial facility, but in the home, it's pretty much just lightning striking power lines. FYI, thunderclaps will often reverberate long after the actual lightning bolt (you're hearing sounds from the bolt at ground level AND from cloud level, often several miles further away), and the plasma created will keep glowing; the actual oscillating lightning strokes each only last a few thousanths of a second. Hillridge posted:I just moved into a space with 208 3-phase. If I have any equipment that's designed to work off of 240, do I need a separate transformer for each circuit, or can I run 208 to a sub-panel that converts to 240 and feeds multiple circuits? Any recommendations on this? grover fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 22:29
|
|
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lO4fSuzE-I It is pretty dang amazing how some of them can drag it out. Each pulse is probably crazy short but it seems a few of those pulses would heat a breaker up nice. But really the EMP kills all the equipment around here. 3 out of 4 times I'm called to look at a network that has been damaged by a storm the point of entry has been pulse, not direct.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2011 23:29
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Are you positive your equipment won't run on 208? I've only run across very very few things that need to be either 208 or 240 (high end and quite old UPSes....think nasty early 90's filing cabinet sided Lieberts). I don't have my codebook here, but I believe you can use an autotransformer (aka a buck/boost transformer) to boost 208V (line to line, two pole) to 240V L-L. I also believe that you can not use an autotransformer for any larger change in voltage such as 120V to 277V, 277V to 347V, etc. (E:F;B) How many kVA or MVAs are you talking about here? If this is a really substantial load, my concern would be pulling too much current on two of the three phases. (I believe a Scott-T transformer configuration would allow you to go from three to single phase while staying balanced.) Motronic posted:nasty early 90's filing cabinet sided Lieberts). Lieberts... I think I stumbled across one at work. (Now more people are getting stuff like Eaton Powerware 9000 series for 120/208V and 277/480V UPS's.) Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 04:09 on May 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2011 03:58
|
|
|
Just to follow up on my earlier story, I finally figured out my issue with multiple GFCI outlets not having power. It turns out that that entire circuit is fed through a GFCI outlet that sits 2ft away from the breaker box (which is all the way on the other side of the house from where the problematic outlets are). I should've caught that, but someone had left one of those 1 to 3 outlet splitters plugged in and it was large enough to block the GFCI buttons.  Glad to have power back, but I wish I could figure out who decided to run the circuit like that so I could kick them in the nuts. edit: I really feel like this deserves another
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2011 00:45
|
|
|
Wow. Why would this be done? To avoid running proper wiring all the way to the kitchen to put a gfci there? That's the only thing I can think of.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2011 01:12
|
|
|
A friend of mine has a thing in his garage. It may have been part of a grow op, as it was apparently wired into the outlets in an attached shed-type structure and that place was...well, looking like a grow op moved out recently. Anyhow! I have pictures of the thing. Here you can see the cabinet the thing came in:  The thing we are interested in is the black thing on the right. The beige thing is just a timer that was added later, is my understanding. The outlets in the grow room may have been wired through said timer as well as the black thing in question. Here's a closeup of the label attached to the inside of the cabinet:  And here's a closeup of the label on the thing:  So the question(s): 1) What is the thing? 2) What is the thing for? 3) Is it worth keeping the thing? 4) If not, can the thing likely be sold for fat stacks of cash on craigslist/ebay? 5) Any further questions are left as an exercise to the reader.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2011 01:32
|
|
|
Bad Munki posted:1) What is the thing? You could probably sell it to some other urban farmer, but you're probably best quietly disposing of it instead.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2011 02:11
|
|
|
Yeah, those are common stock items at electrical supply stores. I've got three on the shelf right now. Unless you're planning on your own grow op, it's of no use to you, or probably anyone.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2011 02:14
|
|
|
That unit plus enclosure is worth quite a bit. They sell for $1200+ new--minus the timer--from the typical overpriced distributors that sell these sorts of things. I don't think it would be very easy to find a buyer, though. Institutions that use those sorts of things don't buy used units.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2011 05:07
|
|
|
Searching ebay shows people are selling a few there. Not sure if they sell but that's probably a better bet than local.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2011 05:17
|
|
|
So I have a really stupid basic wiring question. I need to run some outlets in 2 rooms in my basement, and want to put them on a single breaker. I know I can wire like: breaker -> outlet1 -> outlet2 -> ... -> outlet(n), but in order to save some wire, can I wire from the breaker into a junction box, where I have 2 different cables wirenutted to the wires from the breaker box, then have each cable going to the different rooms, and make 2 separate chains of outlets? Thanks.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 21:05
|
|
|
Yes, you can do that as far as I know (again, code is area dependent sometimes). Be sure that you only put a breaker on your circuit equivalent to the rating for your cable running back to the breaker. Also see if your area requires you to do a GFCI circuit down there, which may complicate your wiring slightly. This is more a safety thing than a technicality.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 21:40
|
|
|
artificialj posted:So I have a really stupid basic wiring question. I need to run some outlets in 2 rooms in my basement, and want to put them on a single breaker. I know I can wire like: breaker -> outlet1 -> outlet2 -> ... -> outlet(n), but in order to save some wire, can I wire from the breaker into a junction box, where I have 2 different cables wirenutted to the wires from the breaker box, then have each cable going to the different rooms, and make 2 separate chains of outlets? Junction boxes need to be accessible, so as long as you're not going to drywall over the box you're fine doing it that way.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 21:41
|
|
|
Hell, might as well make that junction an outlet, also. More useful than a blank plate on the wall. And if you are required to place a GFCI to protect the circuit this is the logical place for it to go.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 21:48
|
|
|
chedemefedeme posted:Hell, might as well make that junction an outlet, also. More useful than a blank plate on the wall.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2011 22:35
|
|
|
Cool, thanks guys!
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2011 02:45
|
|
|
I just bought a bunch of these florescent lights to replace some lovely ones in a drop ceiling and had a few questions about also putting them in an unfinished garage. 1. Can I just screw them into the floor joists? 2. Can they be in direct contact with insulation? 3. Is there a good way to hang them down a few inches to let some pipes pass above them? 4. Is there some code-specified minimum height to keep a giant from cracking his head on one? 5. Do I have to keep it a certain distance from the moving parts of the garage door or just make sure nothing touches?
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2011 22:46
|
|
|
Those are not IC rated. They make the same product (2GR8 series) in IC rated, as evidenced here, but they are different than the ones you linked to. Note the IC in the part number.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2011 23:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 21:58 |
|
|
chedemefedeme posted:Wow. Why would this be done? To avoid running proper wiring all the way to the kitchen to put a gfci there? That's the only thing I can think of. No idea. Everything it goes to has a GFCI on it, so it's not like they saved the cost of a GFCI. It's in a storage room that's not insulated, but I wouldn't think that would need to be a GFCI to be to code, would it?
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2011 14:22
|
|