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EDIT: I too like nWoD,slim! Are clerics really that good? I never actually played a cleric into high levels in 3.5, I was usually all about the rogues or wizards. So far the rogue is the most fun in Daggerdale on XboxLive.
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May 31, 2011 09:16
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Ferrinus posted:Why would Rakshasas present a problem to a party of spellcasters...? Is this you not knowing anything about the game you're championing again? It works on so many levels! Soonmot posted:
Wear heavy armor, fight as well as a fighter through spells, have the only healing spells worth a drat, have just as many save or die spells as a Wizard.
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May 31, 2011 09:25
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Soonmot posted:EDIT: I too like nWoD,slim! They have a slightly narrower bag of magical tricks than a wizard, generally speaking, but they also have heavy armour, can buff themselves to be better at fighting than a fighter, heal, and most importantly have access to Divine Metamagic. The wizard can mitigate fragility, but the cleric just straight up isn't fragile, and their best magic is probably more effective into the bargain.
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May 31, 2011 09:28
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Durkon doesn't show it off often, because he is a team player, but a well played/built cleric can out-Paladin Paladin, out-Fighter Fighter, and if you are really conniving even out-Wizard Wizard. Clerics are the best example of 3.x's system mastery, because at first glance they look like their purpose is to heal and buff the melee, but turning those buffs inward lets them do almost anything. Edit: While it is easy for a wizard to invalidate other party members/trivialize encounters, the cleric usually doesn't despite being just as able to, because there is usually a bit of synergy required for the cleric to do it, as opposed to the wizards spell list that makes certain spells explicitly obvious as "tactical superiority" (overland flight) and "replace the rogue" (knock). Red_Mage fucked around with this message at 09:42 on May 31, 2011 |
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May 31, 2011 09:39
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Cabbit posted:Please go back to TGD and never leave. The both of you. I forgot we weren't IN TGD. I'm having some kind of existential crisis. So weird.
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May 31, 2011 10:16
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Soonmot posted:EDIT: I too like nWoD,slim! Also, you need to quit having a life and come back to TG. Some of us miss you. Dork.
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May 31, 2011 10:16
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navyjack posted:Also, you need to quit having a life and come back to TG. Some of us miss you. Dork. I was looking today, but there are no 4E or nWoD games recruiting and I don't have M&M3 for Robodog's game.
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May 31, 2011 10:50
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Soonmot posted:I was looking today, but there are no 4E or nWoD games recruiting and I don't have M&M3 for Robodog's game. Oh. I imagine if you spoke to the right person (me) there might be a game (mine) who could need somebody (you) if you wanted to make the effort to read a thread (this one : http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3250940]) you know and i know you're a rock star. A controller would be nice. just saying. And you know most of the dudes therein. just saying. nice to see you again, anyway. 
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May 31, 2011 12:49
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Superstring posted:Wear heavy armor, fight as well as a fighter through spells, have the only healing spells worth a drat, have just as many save or die spells as a Wizard. Not to mention a tacit power over the rest of the party. Only an rear end would abuse it, but still.
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May 31, 2011 13:46
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Soonmot posted:EDIT: I too like nWoD,slim! I played a cleric from level 1 to 23 in our old 3.5 campaign. It was loving insane after level 10. While the rogue was busy trying not to die and the fighter was killing maybe 1 monster per round, the cleric was nuking entire rooms of people and turning any undead monster (including the vampire boss at the end of the dungeon) into loving ash.
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May 31, 2011 15:33
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crime fighting hog posted:I played a cleric from level 1 to 23 in our old 3.5 campaign. It was loving insane after level 10. While the rogue was busy trying not to die and the fighter was killing maybe 1 monster per round, the cleric was nuking entire rooms of people and turning any undead monster (including the vampire boss at the end of the dungeon) into loving ash. Meanwhile, the rogue is functionally a shittier fighter (!) against any undead monster and spends entire combats plinking away with a sneak attack-less dagger.
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May 31, 2011 15:42
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In the fighter's defense, it manages to avoid being the absolute worst classin the game. That honor goes to (probably) either the Samurai (who is basically a fighter without class features) or the Truenamer (who actively gets less able to use his abilities as he levels). I'd probably argue that Swashbuckler and maybe Monk are worse as well.
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May 31, 2011 15:56
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The Lord of Hats posted:In the fighter's defense, it manages to avoid being the absolute worst classin the game. That honor goes to (probably) either the Samurai (who is basically a fighter without class features) or the Truenamer (who actively gets less able to use his abilities as he levels). I'd probably argue that Swashbuckler and maybe Monk are worse as well. The Truenamer was literally unusable out of the book it came from. Take that, samurai!
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May 31, 2011 16:22
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Just a heads up. I'm not arguing that the wizard isn't the most powerful class (Actually I am, Druid and Cleric are better, but that's not my main point). I'm arguing that, with a good DM and players who aren't actively trying to upstage each other, this isn't a problem. Any wizard that takes a spell like knock, providing the DM imposes a reasonable limit on researchable spells, is a huge douchebag and a wizard who actually prepares it is a huge douchebag with priority issues. Why is this so hard to understand? That spell exists so that a party can feasibly get by without a rogue, but y'all are acting like it's a mandatory spell. Yeah, a wizard is a much bigger deal than the party fighter 98% of the time, but in my experience there's usually a player wants to play a fighter and who's content to sit on the couch, sling some dice, and make a disproportional dent in the group's beer. Maybe my experience with 3.x is skewed because I played pretty much exclusively with friends in a friendly atmosphere. Hell, I play a scout more often than not despite them being much weaker than my old favorite (druids). I've never had an experience playing with a guy who would actively piss off his companions for the sole gain of making his sheet of paper stronger. Apparently that's pretty loving common though judging by some of the opinions in this thread. Android Blues posted:A cleric is more powerful than a wizard, actually. Cleric/wizard/druid are like the holy trinity of spellcaster supremacy, and wizard is usually considered the weakest of the three. I'm not particularly interested in getting into this argument but I thought it worth correcting you on that point! Eifert Posting fucked around with this message at 17:36 on May 31, 2011 |
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May 31, 2011 17:15
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The Lord of Hats posted:In the fighter's defense, it manages to avoid being the absolute worst classin the game. That honor goes to (probably) either the Samurai (who is basically a fighter without class features) or the Truenamer (who actively gets less able to use his abilities as he levels). I'd probably argue that Swashbuckler and maybe Monk are worse as well. There's one way to make a swashbuckler better- take 3 levels of Rogue and the "Daring Outlaw" feat from Complete Scoundrel (four levels if you want Uncanny Dodge). You now have almost full BAB and full sneak attack. Get a rapier or kukri, a high crit range, the Two-Weapon Fighting feats and go to town. Swashbuckler also makes a decent 3 level dip for Insightful Strike, which is good for some high-Int builds.
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May 31, 2011 17:54
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I am really glad that my group was always too ADD and generally incompetent to get ourselves to 10th level. We must have had a dozen games taking us from 1-8 and then we either switch systems for a while (and never return to that game) or manage to get ourselves all killed.
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May 31, 2011 17:58
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Ashcans posted:I am really glad that my group was always too ADD and generally incompetent to get ourselves to 10th level. We must have had a dozen games taking us from 1-8 and then we either switch systems for a while (and never return to that game) or manage to get ourselves all killed. Levels 1-8 is actually pretty much the sweet spot for 3.5 (although I'd argue more for 3-8, because getting one-shot killed by a lucky crit from an orc is not much fun.) Things stay sane, no long-range teleporting, you can still remember what all your buffs do without flashcards and a flowchart, and there still is a sort of class balance. After level 9 or so, things rapidly start becoming a lot more complicated and broken, and a lot less fun. One of the things I like the most about 4e is that it took the power range of those levels, and basically extended it over the entire 30 levels. You do miss out on all the ridiculously broken wizard duels, but on the plus side, you get to miss out on the game turning into ridiculously broken wizard duels. Ashenai fucked around with this message at 18:28 on May 31, 2011 |
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May 31, 2011 18:19
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The Lord of Hats posted:In the fighter's defense, it manages to avoid being the absolute worst classin the game. That honor goes to (probably) either the Samurai (who is basically a fighter without class features) or the Truenamer (who actively gets less able to use his abilities as he levels). I'd probably argue that Swashbuckler and maybe Monk are worse as well. I love playing Monks, especially if you don't try to make them fighter replacements. But goddamn does that class require good stats. You need a high dex and wisdom for defense, a good con to take hits, a decent int for skills, and strength for damage and possibly attack as well.
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May 31, 2011 19:31
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Taerkar posted:I love playing Monks, especially if you don't try to make them fighter replacements. But goddamn does that class require good stats. You need a high dex and wisdom for defense, a good con to take hits, a decent int for skills, and strength for damage and possibly attack as well.
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May 31, 2011 19:40
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The funniest thing about the monk is that it's supremely fortified against all means of attack... except for just attacking it with a weapon for hitpoint damage.Toussaint Louverture posted:Just a heads up. I'm not arguing that the wizard isn't the most powerful class (Actually I am, Druid and Cleric are better, but that's not my main point). I'm arguing that, with a good DM and players who aren't actively trying to upstage each other, this isn't a problem. Any wizard that takes a spell like knock, providing the DM imposes a reasonable limit on researchable spells, is a huge douchebag and a wizard who actually prepares it is a huge douchebag with priority issues. Why is this so hard to understand? That spell exists so that a party can feasibly get by without a rogue, but y'all are acting like it's a mandatory spell. Yeah, a wizard is a much bigger deal than the party fighter 98% of the time, but in my experience there's usually a player wants to play a fighter and who's content to sit on the couch, sling some dice, and make a disproportional dent in the group's beer. Knock is the icing on the cake. It's funny and sad that if a wizard was really trying, he could literally render the rogue useless, do everything the rogue does better. In practice, he doesn't need to, since he's got a rogue there to open locks or some poo poo - so, instead, the wizard (or cleric or druid) just upstage everyone in combat encounters/travel scenes/overcoming environmental obstacles/mystery solving like god intended.
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May 31, 2011 20:17
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Ferrinus posted:The funniest thing about the monk is that it's supremely fortified against all means of attack... except for just attacking it with a weapon for hitpoint damage. The Rogue is there so that the Wizard isn't forced to take one level in rogue and waste skill points in search and disable device just to disarm traps that he hasn't got a swiss army knife spell to deal with.
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May 31, 2011 20:48
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crime fighting hog posted:The Truenamer was literally unusable out of the book it came from. Take that, samurai! You know, I've heard this a bunch of times, but I've never really worked through the mechanics enough to understand why this is. What is it that got screwed up with the Truenamer that made it unusable?
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May 31, 2011 20:54
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Danhenge posted:The Rogue is there so that the Wizard isn't forced to take one level in rogue and waste skill points in search and disable device just to disarm traps that he hasn't got a swiss army knife spell to deal with. There are probably few traps that some combination of Telekinesis and Disintegrate couldn't solve, or Stone to Mud or some other fun transmutations. Or, poo poo, just send in celestial badgers.
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May 31, 2011 20:56
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Idran posted:You know, I've heard this a bunch of times, but I've never really worked through the mechanics enough to understand why this is. What is it that got screwed up with the Truenamer that made it unusable? The DC's for truenaming go up 2 points per CR (basically level for monsters), but the truenaming skill only goes up 1 point per level (slightly higher due to stat bonuses, but not by much) so truenamers fall further and further behind as the level increases. A Truenamer who focuses on absolutely maxing out his skill ends up with a 50/50 shot of hitting equal CR enemies with the first use of an utterance (utterances go up in DC by 2 every time they are used in a day), and if he faces any higher CR enemies the chance of effecting them is even lower Also most of the utterances are really bad, and they are all single target, so even in the situations where the truenamer can reliably effect enemies (i.e. when facing lots of lower powered creatures) they are still ineffective. Piell fucked around with this message at 21:13 on May 31, 2011 |
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May 31, 2011 20:59
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Ferrinus posted:There are probably few traps that some combination of Telekinesis and Disintegrate couldn't solve, or Stone to Mud or some other fun transmutations. Or, poo poo, just send in celestial badgers. a high dc purely mechanical trap made of adamantine enclosed in an antimagic field? presume you didn't pack enough orbs or you're already expecting to fight a gauntlet of golems once you've pass the thrap edit: wait, you've already probably brought along a bunch of adamantine weapons so you can violent thrust the golems to death, i give up Danhenge fucked around with this message at 21:05 on May 31, 2011 |
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May 31, 2011 21:02
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Ferrinus posted:There are probably few traps that some combination of Telekinesis and Disintegrate couldn't solve, or Stone to Mud or some other fun transmutations. Or, poo poo, just send in celestial badgers. A rogue can disable devices an unlimited amount of times a day. Disintegrate and stone to mud are 6th and 5th level spells respectively. Do you understand that spells are limited or are you just being difficult?
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May 31, 2011 21:16
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Danhenge posted:edit: wait, you've already probably brought along a bunch of adamantine weapons so you can violent thrust the golems to death, i give up You don't need to disable the trap most times, just get around it. Phasing/dimension door/dozens of other movement or teleportation spells did just that. Or give the fighter a hammer and have him burrow through the goddamn earth at half his movement speed. Power attack/mattock of the titans was a hilarious mining combo for breaking down entire goddamn walls of rock to get through a dungeon.  DM: "A mountain is in the way" "The gently caress it is"Toussaint Louverture posted:A rogue can disable devices an unlimited amount of times a day. Disintegrate and stone to mud are 6th and 5th level spells respectively. Do you understand that spells are limited or are you just being difficult? Doesn't matter. You just cast a spell that literally opens up a pocket dimension and go rest. Come back fresh. The traps are still gonna be there in 6 hours. E: You're also forgetting about the numerous magic items the wizard has on his person to help him either replicate or recall spells. And the magic items the rest of the party has. And the rest of the wizard's magic items that the fighter is carrying around for the wizard in a sack. crime fighting hog fucked around with this message at 21:30 on May 31, 2011 |
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May 31, 2011 21:23
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Danhenge posted:a high dc purely mechanical trap made of adamantine enclosed in an antimagic field? presume you didn't pack enough orbs or you're already expecting to fight a gauntlet of golems once you've pass the thrap Welcome to hell. Welcome to hell. Welcome to hell. Welcome to h Toussaint Louverture posted:A rogue can disable devices an unlimited amount of times a day. Disintegrate and stone to mud are 6th and 5th level spells respectively. Do you understand that spells are limited or are you just being difficult? Who cares? Replace the rogue with another wizard and when you're done disabling traps you'll still have half a wizard left (assuming you were really wasteful) in the rogue's place, and that's worth ten rogues in an encounter that's actually challenging.
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May 31, 2011 21:27
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Ferrinus posted:Welcome to hell. Welcome to hell. Welcome to hell. Welcome to h Wow, it must be really unfun to have to DM for you or play with you. I hope that the kitty will not die, that would be super depressing.
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May 31, 2011 21:40
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Ashenai posted:One of the things I like the most about 4e is that it took the power range of those levels, and basically extended it over the entire 30 levels. You do miss out on all the ridiculously broken wizard duels, but on the plus side, you get to miss out on the game turning into ridiculously broken wizard duels. That was something I both really liked and really disliked about 4e. Aside from access to new rituals, I never really felt like I was getting more powerful at higher levels beyond just hitting for bigger numbers, and even the rituals didn't have as much freedom as 3.5 versions of the effects (only being able to plane shift between known sigils in 4e compared to going to any plane in 3.5e with planeshift/gate) It removed nonsense like scry and die tactics, but felt like it limited freedom and exploration a lot without just having the dm tell you where you can go.
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May 31, 2011 21:50
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CarnivorousThing posted:Wow, it must be really unfun to have to DM for you or play with you. He's driving at a legitimate point but not out and out saying it. Yeah you can make 3.5 work, but why bother with all the house rules and avoiding of level 9+ like the plague when you could just use a different system that doesn't have a godawful, non-play tested, fundamentally broken foundation? Not so surprisingly, it makes life a lot easier and doesn't detract from roleplaying at all! True Evil Bob posted:That was something I both really liked and really disliked about 4e. Aside from access to new rituals, I never really felt like I was getting more powerful at higher levels beyond just hitting for bigger numbers, and even the rituals didn't have as much freedom as 3.5 versions of the effects (only being able to plane shift between known sigils in 4e compared to going to any plane in 3.5e with planeshift/gate) It removed nonsense like scry and die tactics, but felt like it limited freedom and exploration a lot without just having the dm tell you where you can go. True optimization is a bit harder in 4E, because it's less of an individual thing. It's more of a party thing, and I kind of like that. I was in a Paragon to Epic campaign and did I feel more powerful by level 20? God yes, but not just because my Barbarian was tricked out to hell and back but because of the synergy between a Thunderborn Barbarian, a Tactical Presence Warlord, and a Unity Avenger all working in concert with an Invoker clearing the way for all of us to do our Terror Trio shebang.
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May 31, 2011 22:04
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True Evil Bob posted:That was something I both really liked and really disliked about 4e. Aside from access to new rituals, I never really felt like I was getting more powerful at higher levels beyond just hitting for bigger numbers, and even the rituals didn't have as much freedom as 3.5 versions of the effects (only being able to plane shift between known sigils in 4e compared to going to any plane in 3.5e with planeshift/gate) It removed nonsense like scry and die tactics, but felt like it limited freedom and exploration a lot without just having the dm tell you where you can go. Yeah, this bugs me about 4e, too. It does allow for interesting adventures (even at high levels) that aren't instantly ruined by Scry, Teleport, though. Another way of looking at it: Lord of the Rings would have been a pretty short book if the characters worked in the 3.5 style. Boromir: "One does not simply walk into Mordor." Gandalf: "Very true. Fortunately, I have Greater Teleport memorized. Come, Frodo. The rest of you can go take a nap or something." The End. What I'm saying is, there's a reason every single fantasy novel or story I can think of has only evil spellcasters, or if there are good spellcasters, they're much more like 4e than 3.5e. Powerful utility magic ruins stories, and games.
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May 31, 2011 22:12
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Ashenai posted:Another way of looking at it: Lord of the Rings would have been a pretty short book if the characters worked in the 3.5 style. Not even that. Teleport object, you don't even have to go to Mordor at all. poo poo, teleport the goddamn ring into outer space.
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May 31, 2011 22:19
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Can we maybe pretend we're in BSS and cut the loving millionth iteration of the same boring-rear end 3.5 vs 4/spellcasters are overpowered conversation short? As a personal favor to me?
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May 31, 2011 22:21
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crime fighting hog posted:Not even that. Teleport object, you don't even have to go to Mordor at all. poo poo, teleport the goddamn ring into outer space. Gandalf: "It's not in Mount Doom, but I put it in the core of the sun, will that do?"
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May 31, 2011 22:21
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Post poste posted:Gandalf: "It's not in Mount Doom, but I put it in the core of the sun, will that do?" I was gonna say teleport can't go that far but I'm sure there's a teleport version floating around in a splatbook that let you teleport anywhere in sight. Well, I can see the sun, can't I? Whenever people bring up 3.5 D&D I want to go play Morrowind for some reason.
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May 31, 2011 22:23
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crime fighting hog posted:I was gonna say teleport can't go that far but I'm sure there's a teleport version floating around in a splatbook that let you teleport anywhere in sight. Well, I can see the sun, can't I? It's floating around in core rules  Teleport, Greater Conjuration (Teleportation) Level: Sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7 This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
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May 31, 2011 22:25
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So, by definition of Interplanar Travel not being possible if you're on the Prime Material you still could teleport from Forgotten Realms to Krynn if you were aware Krynn existed. Because they're planets on the same plane you see. At level what, level 13?
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May 31, 2011 22:28
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Ashenai posted:Yeah, this bugs me about 4e, too. It does allow for interesting adventures (even at high levels) that aren't instantly ruined by Scry, Teleport, though. I ended up enjoying both editions in different ways. 4e for the low-mid fantasy story where you're not warping reality but you manage to survive long enough to go from killing kobolds to challenging demigods, but I still enjoy the high level spellcasting arms race in 3e, aside from martial classes becoming obsolete at high level without homebrew/houserules/etc. Our groups did always ban Rope Trick though to avoid having a safe way of turning the game into a 15 minute workday too easily.
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May 31, 2011 22:50
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Ashenai posted:What I'm saying is, there's a reason every single fantasy novel or story I can think of has only evil spellcasters, or if there are good spellcasters, they're much more like 4e than 3.5e. Powerful utility magic ruins stories, and games. It's worth noting that even Exalted, in which players are expected to make earth-shattering God-Kings doesn't have a "teleport spell." And why should it? Most of the fun in roleplaying games is in the journey.
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