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Fitzy Fitz posted:Did all of you completely miss Nessin's point? His claim was that offenders' moral convictions about committing crimes wouldn't be changed by better conditions in prison, not that a stay in prison won't affect their actions or that prisoners deserve to be raped 24 hours a day. His argument wasn't an argument. It was a claim repeated ten times or so, without providing any justification, reasoning or anything of substance at all. Any times he made supporting statements, they were the well-trodden Just World talking points hidden behind more unsubstantiated claims that fly against everything we know about psychology and sociology. That there is a degree of wrongness after which the argument stops being an argument and flies off into the pony wonderland of Prison Sequestria where Fascism is Magic.
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May 28, 2011 11:20
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HidingFromGoro posted:Ever wonder where the hormone-free fish sold at Whole Foods comes from? If I'm allowed hyperbole for the sake of argument, isn't the end state with stuff like this a society of middle and upper class people, whose lives are supported by an underclass that only works while in prison? A slave state based on supposedly modern law. Am I completely off or what the hell? I think I need to read the whole thread.
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May 28, 2011 14:27
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brakeless posted:If I'm allowed hyperbole for the sake of argument, isn't the end state with stuff like this a society of middle and upper class people, whose lives are supported by an underclass that only works while in prison? A slave state based on supposedly modern law. Well, it is slavery. The only reason it flies is because slavery is explicitly permitted for the purpose of punishment. You're pretty much dead on.
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May 28, 2011 14:57
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http://www.laweekly.com/2011-05-26/news/men-s-county-jail-visitor-viciously-beaten-by-guards/ We're now not limited to attacking prisoners, Visitors are getting trashed and chemical burns for minor infractions at LA County.
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May 28, 2011 16:08
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brakeless posted:If I'm allowed hyperbole for the sake of argument, isn't the end state with stuff like this a society of middle and upper class people, whose lives are supported by an underclass that only works while in prison? A slave state based on supposedly modern law. Pretty much. The problem with people thinking this is a good idea is that there isn't much of a middle class anymore.
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May 28, 2011 17:58
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brakeless posted:If I'm allowed hyperbole for the sake of argument, isn't the end state with stuff like this a society of middle and upper class people, whose lives are supported by an underclass that only works while in prison? A slave state based on supposedly modern law. Combine that with removing programs that give people options besides recidivism, combine that with laws written specifically to increase the prison population, and... well... Here's a link about a law intended to boost prison population by the way. quote:They talk how positive this was going to be for the community, the amount of money that we would realize from each prisoner on a daily rate.
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May 28, 2011 18:19
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nnnnghhhhgnnngh posted:Combine that with removing programs that give people options besides recidivism, combine that with laws written specifically to increase the prison population, and... well... Don't forget debtor's prison. HidingFromGoro posted:ACLU report and Brennan Center report on the resurgence of debtor's prison.
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May 29, 2011 03:27
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nnnnghhhhgnnngh posted:There are direct savings; IIRC prisoners produce a huge chunk of US military gear, backpacks and webbing and the like just for starters. Well nowdays they even work on the missiles and systems for fighter jets, basically you name it and UNICOR makes it. That's just federal though, here's a list of different state-level prison industry agencies. Check this out if you want to see how deep the prison-to-profit rabbit hole goes.
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May 29, 2011 03:28
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That Norwegian prison cell is nicer than most college dorm rooms in America. If you built that in America with a kitchen attached you could fill them as trendy studio apartments. America is very much a society obsessed with class and material goods and for this reason the majority of people here would never stand for filthy criminals having a newer sink, toilet, or furniture. It's "me first".
babies havin rabies fucked around with this message at 22:34 on May 29, 2011 |
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May 29, 2011 22:30
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babies havin rabies posted:That Norwegian prison cell is nicer than most college dorm rooms in America. Reminder: You can leave your college dorm room anytime you want.
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May 29, 2011 23:10
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Correct me if I am wrong, but there has never been an actual proven statistical study of people choosing to commit crimes just to be able to go into the "relative" care of prison right? I just want to head off that talking point right away.
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May 29, 2011 23:47
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There wouldn't be. Prison in the United States is a huge risk, what with the rape and beatings and lovely living. Prison in civilized nations is worse than what the social nets will provide for you. One is a huge risk, and the other is a downgrade.
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May 30, 2011 00:01
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Every time I see Norwegian Prisons I kind of Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 00:40 on May 30, 2011 |
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May 30, 2011 00:37
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If the united states had social nets like Europe we wouldn't need the massive prison complex. Unemployment that makes sense, drug treatment instead of prohibition, Realistic understanding that jail + unplayable fines = imposable situation. Only doing any of the above is political insanity. I really think Ill be leaving the US when I can.
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May 30, 2011 00:45
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Correct me if I am wrong, but there has never been an actual proven statistical study of people choosing to commit crimes just to be able to go into the "relative" care of prison right? I've heard of long term criminals who've already spent most of their lives in prison deliberately committing crimes to go back because they don't know how to survive on the outside (they weren't in America though). But I've never heard of someone who's just fallen on hard times trying to get into prison when they haven't been before.
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May 30, 2011 00:49
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Torka posted:I've heard of long term criminals who've already spent most of their lives in prison deliberately committing crimes to go back because they don't know how to survive on the outside (they weren't in America though). But I've never heard of someone who's just fallen on hard times trying to get into prison when they haven't been before. American prison: worse than dieing of exposure and hunger on the streets
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May 30, 2011 02:01
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Torka posted:I've heard of long term criminals who've already spent most of their lives in prison deliberately committing crimes to go back because they don't know how to survive on the outside (they weren't in America though). But I've never heard of someone who's just fallen on hard times trying to get into prison when they haven't been before. There was a cluster of homeless individuals who camped out in the lot next door to my home growing up who would occasionally go out and get arrested when they got hungry enough. I don't know about going as far as getting thrown in prison, but they would certainly go do something to get a short sentence (a few months usually), often when the weather got cold enough. On the whole they weren't altogether terrible people, just broken and addicted. It was quite an experience growing up around that. As a sort of aside related to these guys, there was one who's seven year old daughter was having a birthday party and he felt bad that he couldn't bring her anything. He had hear that she wanted ice cream, so he got cleaned up and went out and stole a box truck full of ice cream and drove it to her party. He gave his daughter and all her guests ice cream, passed some out to the neighbors, and after the party drove the truck to the police stations and turned himself in.
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May 30, 2011 02:53
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Alhazred posted:Reminder: You can leave your college dorm room anytime you want. It is kind of funny when people complain about how prison is too nice: do they not think freedom is really worth anything if freedom is no big deal compared to living conditions?
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May 30, 2011 03:58
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eSports Chaebol posted:It is kind of funny when people complain about how prison is too nice: do they not think freedom is really worth anything if freedom is no big deal compared to living conditions? Yeah, really. Even those Norwegian prisons freak me. Sure compared to a Canadian facility I'd be fed properly, I'd be warm and in more open and clean, and less crowded and terrifying conditions, but I still enjoy freedom very, very much. It would probably be an extra-lovely ride for a transperson as well, just like over here.
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May 30, 2011 04:44
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Another example of how the private sector has considerable profits and financial kick-backs tied up in throwing people in correctional facilities unnecessarily. Some of these kids were put in these facilities for 'crimes' as minor as posting parody videos of their teachers on facebook, fighting on a schoolbus, and even throwing a steak at his stepdad during an argument. They are sentenced to years, marked, and face psychological trauma (one kid killed himself after being released). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9knn1uUM7E4
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May 30, 2011 09:21
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Keep Autism Wired posted:Another example of how the private sector has considerable profits and financial kick-backs tied up in throwing people in correctional facilities unnecessarily. I know this has been brought up before, but this case really shows how awful our justice system is. I lived in Monroe County, right next to Luzerne county when this was happening. It was big news there and I'm glad it became national news. Now as someone who works in the juvenile justice system I'm greatly saddened by the future that awaits many of the kids I work with. The byzantine punishment of probation has not as far as I can tell helped anyone I've dealt with and it is relatively easy to get a violation, especially when there are judges that profit from someone's detention. A violation can be as simple as being on the street in front of your house instead of being inside your house. Now I get to see population numbers drop due to budget cuts in my state and pressure on judges to keep kids out of jail. Crime levels are relatively unchanged since pre-budget crisis levels. The arbitrary nature of our justice system has not helped us here any.
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May 30, 2011 14:11
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Correct me if I am wrong, but there has never been an actual proven statistical study of people choosing to commit crimes just to be able to go into the "relative" care of prison right? It has definitely happened here in Denmark recently, but it is as much a product of extreme youth subcultural viewpoints (biker gangs, radical politicized activists etc.) that think that jail time is both a "scar"* and an acceptable way to spend time for you and your friends. It is course pretty macho, and while our prisons are much better places to spend time, a lot of people (particularly LBGT, women, children and elderly) enter the system only to find that it wasn't as cool as they thought it would be. *fake edit: badge of honour would be more correct. Not sure how to translate it.
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May 30, 2011 15:18
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Correct me if I am wrong, but there has never been an actual proven statistical study of people choosing to commit crimes just to be able to go into the "relative" care of prison right? Not an actual proven statistical study, but I have heard stories about people choosing to commit crime to get jail time. Either because they were so institutionalized that they couldn't cope with life outside prison or because they were homeless and winter was approaching.
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May 30, 2011 16:13
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Alhazred posted:Not an actual proven statistical study, but I have heard stories about people choosing to commit crime to get jail time. Either because they were so institutionalized that they couldn't cope with life outside prison or because they were homeless and winter was approaching. This definitely happens all over the world, but a study as such has not been made to my knowledge.
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May 30, 2011 16:27
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Tias posted:viewpoints that think that jail time is a "scar"* Stripes. Alhazred posted:Not an actual proven statistical study, but I have heard stories about people choosing to commit crime to get jail time. Either because they were so institutionalized that they couldn't cope with life outside prison or because they were homeless and winter was approaching. It happens sometimes, usually for the first reason rather than the second, and there's even a name for it- "doing life on the installment plan." E: usually when it's brought up it's in the same context of "welfare queen driving a Cadillac," especially here in AZ where people pay high electric bills to run their AC all the time, since inmates (sometimes) get AC for free. It's why Tent City is so popular, and also why we charge people rent ($70/day) to go to jail out here. HidingFromGoro fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 30, 2011 |
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May 30, 2011 17:15
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HidingFromGoro posted:E: usually when it's brought up it's in the same context of "welfare queen driving a Cadillac," especially here in AZ where people pay high electric bills to run their AC all the time, since inmates (sometimes) get AC for free. It's why Tent City is so popular, and also why we charge people rent ($70/day) to go to jail out here. So people really believe that AC is worth being locked up? Every day I become more and more happy that I don't live in the States.
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May 30, 2011 17:57
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Those who would think others would give up their liberty for a little air conditioning deserve neither.
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May 30, 2011 18:25
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Alhazred posted:So people really believe that AC is worth being locked up? Every day I become more and more happy that I don't live in the States. There are a great number of people who would gladly live in a box and poo poo in a can as long as the box next door didn't have a can. I once talked to a guy who almost lost his house to his medical bills and he still didn't want socialist healthcare for the illegals. He would give up his home just to make sure people he didn't think deserving of care could get it.
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May 30, 2011 20:20
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CellBlock posted:There are a great number of people who would gladly live in a box and poo poo in a can as long as the box next door didn't have a can. Yeah but again he could leave that house whenever he wanted to. I mean AC is probably pretty sweet and all but not worth losing my freedom over.
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May 30, 2011 20:40
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Regarding those lucky duckies who go to jail for their three hots and a cot? They're like the legendary welfare queen HFG mentioned - there might have been one at some point in time who then became the poster child for the people who wanted to push that particular false narrative. As for false narrative of jail as the poor man's hotel/ hospital, I don't have any data, but five years' worth of anecdote: In five years of public defender work at the trial level, I never once had a client who wanted more time or chose in-time over probation or wanted to stay in longer to get more medical treatment. Winter or summer, felony or misdemeanor, it didn't matter. Tias posted:*fake edit: badge of honour would be more correct. Not sure how to translate it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_scars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_fencing
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May 30, 2011 21:57
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Yes and no.. People from my town, Copenhagen, see the time spent inside itself as credibility. You're not going to be able to point to a physical scar (though comrades often have those as well, either from an injury gotten by accident inside or police brutality prior to their original arrest), but if it is well-known that you have spent time as a felon (or what corresponds to a felony, here), you are seen as a kind of hero because you took one for your group. Does that make sense? I'm dead tired and English isn't my first language.
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May 30, 2011 22:30
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Tias posted:Yes and no.. People from my town, Copenhagen, see the time spent inside itself as credibility. You're not going to be able to point to a physical scar (though comrades often have those as well, either from an injury gotten by accident inside or police brutality prior to their original arrest), but if it is well-known that you have spent time as a felon (or what corresponds to a felony, here), you are seen as a kind of hero because you took one for your group. Yeah we definitely know what you mean, check out the stripes link I posted earlier, it's from a site that specializes in teaching English words to non-native speakers.
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May 31, 2011 00:18
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Tias posted:Yes and no.. People from my town, Copenhagen, see the time spent inside itself as credibility. You're not going to be able to point to a physical scar (though comrades often have those as well, either from an injury gotten by accident inside or police brutality prior to their original arrest), but if it is well-known that you have spent time as a felon (or what corresponds to a felony, here), you are seen as a kind of hero because you took one for your group. Yes, you made perfect sense. I was just derailing because I thought it was interesting that the origin of your word for 'stripes' had its origin in an affectation of the elites from a century ago.
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May 31, 2011 02:25
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joat mon posted:Yes, you made perfect sense. I was just derailing because I thought it was interesting that the origin of your word for 'stripes' had its origin in an affectation of the elites from a century ago. You see this happen on both sides of the law. The cops are aping the military with all the "tactical" stuff (police militarization- or as I've called it "cargo-cult toughness"); and (real or self-imagined) outlaws out in the community are aping the behavior and language of those in prison. One, it's human nature to mimic what the cool guys do- if you aren't cool at least you can look cool. Like getting your face cut with a sword. There are countless examples. I can't be only one who remembers the Rachel Cut. Could it be related to "keeping up with the Joneses" and such? I don't see why not, although Joneses seems to me more along the lines of "mine's bigger than yours" WRT posessions. Maybe a sociology type can PM me or something. Two, on both sides of the law there is overlap, if not an outright revolving door. Many cops are former military- most (all?) departments give hiring prefernece to former military, both institutions screen for some of the same personality types and skill sets, and there's probably some overlap as far as the reasons why someone would want to join the military and reasons why they'd want to join the cops. Not too many surprises there. On the other side, there's obviously going be overlap between inmates/ex-cons and outlaws- be they gang members/affiliates, pro thieves, (some) bike clubs, gunrunners, recreational substance sales entrepeneurs (why do you hate small business?)- however you want to define it. Many of these folks have already done time or their loved one has, so the behavior and language is influenced. Again, not too mnay surprises here either. Sagging/baggy clothes, white T-shirts, and untied shoes are the big ones people talk about on TV, because it pushes that "kids these days" button in the brains of viewers & voters- not to mention the "scary 'urban' youth" button. (I'd look for examples, but I think if I see one more rich guy talk about "thug culture" to a cable-news camera I'll start pulling my hair out). You can also look at the language: "putting in work" & "studio gangster," (hey I'm from the 90's... give me a break) came from "taking care of business" and "cell gangster." There's a book this sociology professor wrote about the connections between "the prisonization of the ghetto and the ghettoization of the prison." Also, especially WRT gangs: Tias posted:you are seen as a kind of hero because you took one for your group.
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May 31, 2011 05:28
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Goro, your comment in the thread about the Mormon brainwashing "school" about how they wouldn't let gang affiliated kids in such places cus they'd get killed combined with a video in the COTB thread about a Seattle cop abusing the poo poo out of a 15 year old girl. I figured, he probably wouldn't have done that to her if she was gang affiliated either. Anyway, the question then. Let's say you're a regular Joe and poo poo like that happens to your kid and you kill the cop who did it and go to prison. How is that generally taken by the inmates? Does it even matter or are you pretty much guaranteed to be dead cus the guards will gently caress you up? If it does, is that different in the case an established gang member kills a cop? Like, how does this stuff work. (note: not personally interested in killing cops)
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May 31, 2011 22:03
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joat mon posted:Regarding those lucky duckies who go to jail for their three hots and a cot? They're like the legendary welfare queen HFG mentioned - there might have been one at some point in time who then became the poster child for the people who wanted to push that particular false narrative. Twice I've had guys choose a custodial sentence over other options where they explicitly told me "I'm doing this because I can't handle life outside of prison". In both cases there were mental health issues at play, but I'd say it's inaccurate to say that guys NEVER choose the (relative, to them) certainty and safety of prison over other options. The idea that it happens with any degree of frequency, or that there's a plague of free loading prisoners living the high life in jail, is absurd as you point out
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May 31, 2011 22:52
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hypocrite lecteur posted:Twice I've had guys choose a custodial sentence over other options where they explicitly told me "I'm doing this because I can't handle life outside of prison". In both cases there were mental health issues at play, but I'd say it's inaccurate to say that guys NEVER choose the (relative, to them) certainty and safety of prison over other options. The idea that it happens with any degree of frequency, or that there's a plague of free loading prisoners living the high life in jail, is absurd as you point out If you're a felon, that means you have trouble getting a job or renting. No way you can afford health insurance, probably not even a car. If you're on a sex offender list you can't live or work anywhere because you'd be too close to a school or a park. And of course you can't vote. With all of that stacked against felons, I'm actually amazed that our recidivism rate is as low as it is.
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May 31, 2011 23:18
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s0meb0dy0 posted:If you're on a sex offender list you can't live or work anywhere because you'd be too close to a school or a park. Isn't that literally anywhere in this country? Like, I live in hell and can still name 3 parks and 2 schools within walking distance.
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May 31, 2011 23:21
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Down Right Fierce posted:Isn't that literally anywhere in this country? Like, I live in hell and can still name 3 parks and 2 schools within walking distance. Yep. There were exactly two places in my urban county where sex offenders could live. One was a few-block area filled with million dollar homes and the other was a block of seedy motels in an unicorporated no-mans land near a highway interchange. (Until the nearby city annexed the land an built a 'park' nearby)
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May 31, 2011 23:56
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s0meb0dy0 posted:What's even more absurd is that people take such anecdotal evidence to mean that prison is too easy. Really, it means that we've given people so little hope of a life outside prison that they see no better option.
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Jun 1, 2011 00:02
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