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True Evil Bob posted:I ended up enjoying both editions in different ways. 4e for the low-mid fantasy story where you're not warping reality but you manage to survive long enough to go from killing kobolds to challenging demigods, but I still enjoy the high level spellcasting arms race in 3e, aside from martial classes becoming obsolete at high level without homebrew/houserules/etc. Our groups did always ban Rope Trick though to avoid having a safe way of turning the game into a 15 minute workday too easily. I uh I'm not sure I'd call 4E low-mid fantasy when a 1st level Swordmage daily entails slicing open a hole in space/time and stepping through to another point with an accompanying sonic boom. That falls solidly under the category of high high fantasy. It's just not broken, is all.
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Jun 1, 2011 00:20
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CarnivorousThing posted:Wow, it must be really unfun to have to DM for you or play with you. Yes, I can see how you'd have to convince yourself that that was true. Otherwise you might find yourself forced to acknowledge even a single fact. True Evil Bob posted:That was something I both really liked and really disliked about 4e. Aside from access to new rituals, I never really felt like I was getting more powerful at higher levels beyond just hitting for bigger numbers I've been in a 4e campaign for more than two years now. We started at level 1 and are currently level 18, and I can tell you that my wizard feels like pretty hot poo poo compared to himself even six or seven levels ago. It's true that your accuracy relative to monster defenses doesn't generally increase in 4e, but the sophistication and potency of your powers absolutely does. It's not like you go from Close Burst 1, 1d6 damage, to Close Burst 1, 2d6 damage. You go from Close Burst 1 1d6 damage and slow to Close Burst 5 5d6 damage and immobilized. You haven't lived until you've lured every named enemy in a bossfight within 5 squares of you and then spent an action point to cast Prismatic Beams. Also, it often happens in our campaign that we face the same enemies we fought a few levels ago... but in, like, three times their usual numbers or something similarly crazy. I can absolutely tell you that if it weren't for the expanding ranges and effects of my party's powers compared to what we used to have we would just be 100% unable to handle like half of what the DM throws at us. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jun 1, 2011 |
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Jun 1, 2011 00:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:I uh I like to think of 4e as Super Heroic Fantasy. It's my hope that some day I'll run/play in a game that starts off with: "Meanwhile... At the Hall of Justice!"
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Jun 1, 2011 00:28
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Ohh look 54 new posts, there must be a new co...  At least it isn't an alignment argument.
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Jun 1, 2011 01:04
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Gunjin posted:Ohh look 54 new posts, there must be a new co... No, you fool! Just mentioning the reduction in the alignment system is liable to destroy this thread from within.
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Jun 1, 2011 01:59
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Superstring posted:I like to think of 4e as Super Heroic Fantasy. It's my hope that some day I'll run/play in a game that starts off with: "Meanwhile... At the Hall of Justice!" And the previous editions weren't super heroic fantasy? I'm actually curious.
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Jun 1, 2011 01:59
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They're pretty definite low fantasy in all incarnations. Confusing.Gunjin posted:Ohh look 54 new posts, there must be a new co...
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Jun 1, 2011 02:19
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D&D really is not what I would call even close to low fantasy. It's far too magical for that. Even Dark Sun. Forgotten Realms tries to be Low Fantasy but then forgets about that five seconds later.
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Jun 1, 2011 02:40
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Captain Oblivious posted:D&D really is not what I would call even close to low fantasy. It's far too magical for that. Even Dark Sun. And then in the dry, barren Mountains of Sklort (next to the lush equatorial Deepforests of Dragonbone Valley, where the red and gold and maybe some other specific colours of dragons fight their eternal magi-war) the Arch-Demilich Chun'Ganoosh summoned the adventurers to recover his magic Raiments of Good from the Archmage Khelben Arunsun in wherever he's at now. The point is Forgetten Realms is a geographically improbable mish-mash of silly-sounding names and impossible (as in awful) stories involving wizards and dragons and sometimes drow and nothing else.
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Jun 1, 2011 02:46
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Captain Oblivious posted:D&D really is not what I would call even close to low fantasy. It's far too magical for that. Even Dark Sun. D&D can't make up its mind on what its influences are so you get low magic Conan the Barbarian types with, natch, the Barbarian and other weapon swinging classes. And right next to them are the reality warping Infinity Gauntlet casters. crime fighting hog posted:And the previous editions weren't super heroic fantasy? I'm actually curious. In 4e, just starting from level 1 and having everyone already be able to do cool/useful things like Dimensional Thunder up there or headlocking a creature twice your size. AND have everyone remain useful and doing awesome things left and right, yeah I think 4e is definitely more super heroic in vein.
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Jun 1, 2011 02:49
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Captain Oblivious posted:D&D really is not what I would call even close to low fantasy. It's far too magical for that. Even Dark Sun. Anyway, high fantasy isn't usually a term associated with "amount of magic" in a setting. This article struggles to fit harry potter into the same class of fantasy as tolkien though, so the entire process of using wikipedia here feels suspect... I mean D&D is almost exclusively portrayed as up close and personal, relationship driven hack and slash fantasy, more akin to Conan than Tolkien. You're using high fantasy differently from what appears to be the more common usage of the term, which is what I was responding to.
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Jun 1, 2011 02:55
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Spiderdrake posted:I mean D&D is almost exclusively portrayed as up close and personal, relationship driven hack and slash fantasy, more akin to Conan than Tolkien. You're using high fantasy differently from what appears to be the more common usage of the term, which is what I was responding to.
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Jun 1, 2011 03:13
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EndOfTheWorld posted:Most of the fun in roleplaying games is in the journey. Tell it to these guys. Or these guys. Both get teleports and can be built so that they start the game with them. My gaming group is unanimous in declaring Demon: The Fallen both amazingly broken and the best campaign we've ever played. My point is 90% of roleplaying is the group, not the game; if you can't enjoy a game due to balance issues and "useless classes" and whatnot I feel you may be kinda missing the point. Roleplaying is not about stats and CRs and Thac0s: it's about characters, stories and good times.
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Jun 1, 2011 04:03
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Nilbop posted:And then in the dry, barren Mountains of Sklort (next to the lush equatorial Deepforests of Dragonbone Valley, where the red and gold and maybe some other specific colours of dragons fight their eternal magi-war) the Arch-Demilich Chun'Ganoosh summoned the adventurers to recover his magic Raiments of Good from the Archmage Khelben Arunsun in wherever he's at now. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Forgotten Realms has peasant dirt farmers who've never even seen magic on one side of a mountain range, and exactly this on the opposite side of that mountain range.
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Jun 1, 2011 05:10
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Ashenai posted:Another way of looking at it: Lord of the Rings would have been a pretty short book if the characters worked in the 3.5 style. crime fighting hog posted:Well, I can see the sun, can't I? 
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Jun 1, 2011 07:01
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Poil posted:I hope I'm not opening another can of worms here but Gandalf would probably have been far too low level to cast that spell. If you look at what he does and compare it to spells it doesn't give him a fantastic level. Plus his weird wizard race most likely gives him LA. I read some good arguments a long time ago for the fellowship being about level 5 which included that almost nothing they do can't be done at that level. Most of what they fight are just orcs (which are, what CR 1? 2?), if they had been high level the orcs must've been high level to pose a serious threat AND that would've made every single human soldier high level as well since they could beat an orc in a one on one. Um, but this isn't really important. It is a very good thing D&D was cribbing off tolkien and not the other way round. Also I hate you.
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Jun 1, 2011 08:00
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Poil posted:Actually based on how spot and hide works you'd need to roll a d20, add about a million for it's size penalty and make a DC of over a billion due to distance. So no, you can't see the sun. If it tried to hide. Bah, even if it tried, unless the sun's a Ranger or something, it needs cover first. During an eclipse, though, that fucker'd be invisible!
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Jun 1, 2011 08:03
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Poil posted:I hope I'm not opening another can of worms here but Gandalf would probably have been far too low level to cast that spell. If you look at what he does and compare it to spells it doesn't give him a fantastic level. Plus his weird wizard race most likely gives him LA. I read some good arguments a long time ago for the fellowship being about level 5 which included that almost nothing they do can't be done at that level. Most of what they fight are just orcs (which are, what CR 1? 2?), if they had been high level the orcs must've been high level to pose a serious threat AND that would've made every single human soldier high level as well since they could beat an orc in a one on one. Um, but this isn't really important. Technically, that "weird wizard race" is Maiar; i.e. a weaker angel. If we assume that Gandalf was an Astral Deva (the weakest angel listed in the 3.5 SRD), that would give him a level adjustment of +8. So even if we go with the "no higher than level 5" thing for Gandalf, that'll still put the rest of the Fellowship at around level 13. Explain the Uruk-Hai as being orcs with PC class levels, and problem solved.
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Jun 1, 2011 08:07
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Technogeek posted:Technically, that "weird wizard race" is Maiar; i.e. a weaker angel. If we assume that Gandalf was an Astral Deva (the weakest angel listed in the 3.5 SRD), that would give him a level adjustment of +8. So even if we go with the "no higher than level 5" thing for Gandalf, that'll still put the rest of the Fellowship at around level 13. Explain the Uruk-Hai as being orcs with PC class levels, and problem solved. Finally this book makes sense. I was trying and trying to figure it out, but it just didn't all lock together until I read this. Thanks Technogeek, now I can finally finish the trilogy!
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Jun 1, 2011 08:37
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Android Blues posted:Finally this book makes sense. I was trying and trying to figure it out, but it just didn't all lock together until I read this. Thanks Technogeek, now I can finally finish the trilogy! Pssh, don't bother. The later books are way too much like WoW. I mean, Gandalf levels and what does he get? A free epic mount!
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Jun 1, 2011 10:56
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Bobulus posted:Pssh, don't bother. The later books are way too much like WoW. I mean, Gandalf levels and what does he get? A free epic mount! You don't even have to go that far. The Hobbits get low level welfare epic swords pretty early, and then Frodo gets a loving heirloom epic sword and chest piece shortly after.
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Jun 1, 2011 15:19
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Superstring posted:In 4e, just starting from level 1 and having everyone already be able to do cool/useful things like Dimensional Thunder up there or headlocking a creature twice your size. AND have everyone remain useful and doing awesome things left and right, yeah I think 4e is definitely more super heroic in vein. E: VVVVV You're right, I misread, sorry. It just bugs me when people say each new edition of the drat game is about super heroes now and from everything I've seen it's always been about super heroes who were full plate instead of capes. crime fighting hog fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Jun 1, 2011 |
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Jun 1, 2011 15:26
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crime fighting hog posted:Yeah, it sucks starting at level 1 being able to do cool things and not die to a goddamn house cat, you're right. I don't think he said it was bad?
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Jun 1, 2011 15:35
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Jesus Christ. I miss the Alignment debates.
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Jun 1, 2011 16:40
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Cabbit posted:Jesus Christ. I miss the Alignment debates. So let me tell you how WOTC is literally worst than a serial rapist because they removed True Neutral...
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Jun 1, 2011 16:43
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Gotta tellya, when I was at Dragon Magazine, we didn't have anywhere NEAR this level (heh...) of sperging about this sort of stuff at TSR. This is an amazing place.
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Jun 1, 2011 16:54
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Effingham posted:Gotta tellya, when I was at Dragon Magazine, we didn't have anywhere NEAR this level (heh...) of sperging about this sort of stuff at TSR. You worked at Dragon during the TSR days? We're you allowed to playtest during work or had that been banned already?
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Jun 1, 2011 17:16
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crime fighting hog posted:So let me tell you how WOTC is literally worst than a serial rapist because they removed True Neutral... Actually I hate 4ed but I'm a big fan of unaligned. That was a long time coming and really solved a lot of issues.
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Jun 1, 2011 19:00
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"Unaligned" is a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. Alignments need to be eliminated entirely.
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Jun 1, 2011 21:11
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Ferrinus posted:"Unaligned" is a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. Alignments need to be eliminated entirely. Alignment is a tiny issue that only becomes exponentially larger proportional to how much you worry about it. OOTS itself is a great illustration of how alignment should be handled and how it shouldn't (Miko)
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Jun 2, 2011 09:33
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Oh, come on! We just finished an edition argument. Do we really want to start an alignment argument, too? I say, no.
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Jun 2, 2011 10:58
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I'm not convinced that rogues are inferior to wizards. I want to hear more about why wizards are the most powerblkalclksannkjasnkvbkvwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (Can you guys shut the gently caress up about D&D and either discuss Order of the Stick or nothing at all? There's a whole forum devoted to nothing but talking about tabletop RPGs, and I absolutely love tabletop RPGs, but for gently caress's sake, DON'T DO IT HERE)
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Jun 2, 2011 16:21
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rotinaj posted:I'm not convinced that rogues are inferior to wizards. I want to hear more about why wizards are the most powerblkalclksannkjasnkvbkvwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Seriously. I may like D&D, but I absolutely hate reading about how x system is broken or y class is over powered here let me show you my mathhammer asdfjhafjhdsaj;fFUCK. All of the picking apart really destroys the game for me and that's why I avoid Trad Games like the plague. Don't bring that poo poo here.
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Jun 2, 2011 16:58
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HKR posted:Seriously. I may like D&D, but I absolutely hate reading about how x system is broken or y class is over powered here let me show you my mathhammer asdfjhafjhdsaj;fFUCK. All of the picking apart really destroys the game for me and that's why I avoid Trad Games like the plague. Don't bring that poo poo here. Don't need to pick apart the system much to see how lovely non-casters are 
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Jun 2, 2011 17:51
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rotinaj posted:(Can you guys shut the gently caress up about D&D and either discuss Order of the Stick or nothing at all? There's a whole forum devoted to nothing but talking about tabletop RPGs, and I absolutely love tabletop RPGs, but for gently caress's sake, DON'T DO IT HERE) Well, they couldn't talk about Tabletop RPGs in TG Proper due to the absolute deluuuuge of PBP, necessitating the creation of the discussion subforum. Perhaps there are just too many drat people talking about things in TGD now, and they need a sub-sub-forum, like this thread.
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Jun 2, 2011 18:47
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crime fighting hog posted:You worked at Dragon during the TSR days? We're you allowed to playtest during work or had that been banned already? I was the editor of Dragon Magazine in 95-96. Playtesting. Heh. Fun lunches. 
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Jun 2, 2011 19:18
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Effingham posted:I was the editor of Dragon Magazine in 95-96. Playtesting. Heh. I was actively reading Dragon then. Was this the time frame of the silver ands black "Cheers" cover? I remember some hoopla over a "Fraiser" setting at the bar while "Rebecca" was stealing his purse. It caused a bit of an uproar IIRC.
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Jun 2, 2011 20:55
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Nystral posted:I was actively reading Dragon then. Was this the time frame of the silver ands black "Cheers" cover? I remember some hoopla over a "Fraiser" setting at the bar while "Rebecca" was stealing his purse. It caused a bit of an uproar IIRC. I want a picture of this cover.
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Jun 2, 2011 21:20
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HKR posted:I want a picture of this cover. Dragon Magainze 184 June? 1992. It looks very little like anyone from Cheers, but nerds will be nerds and they did a write up about it a few months later. I guess the sperged about different things then.
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Jun 2, 2011 22:46
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Cabbit posted:Well, they couldn't talk about Tabletop RPGs in TG Proper due to the absolute deluuuuge of PBP, necessitating the creation of the discussion subforum. Perhaps there are just too many drat people talking about things in TGD now, and they need a sub-sub-forum, like this thread. You motherfucker.
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