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Grand Fromage posted:I still enjoy the magical three megabyte microsoft in Neuromancer. Aspiring sci-fi writers take note: don't ever mention exact numbers when describing the fantastic technology that populates your work.
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Jun 1, 2011 06:53
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Preechr posted:Battletech does show its age, though. I remember Riva Allard talking about how the Helm memory core had a couple hundred kilobytes on Kearney-Fuchida Jumpdrive theory, or something, and that was just amazing. A couple hundred kilobytes is a lot of plaintext though, and it's about jump drives.
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Jun 1, 2011 07:12
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Sci-Fi technology works better when you use a data storage measurement that is completely made up and arbitrary. Such as the Megapulses or whatever of Shadowrun.
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Jun 1, 2011 07:19
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Taerkar posted:Again in part this is stuff that was updated over the years to be less ridiculous. But books are 'lostech' in the sense that a Kindle-like device would be pretty cheap in the setting. If I remember right there was an e-reader that used some sort of minidisc format in one of the Twilight of the Clans novels. Or at least they refer to it as a disc so I doubt it was meant to be a memory card (then again those didn't exactly exist when the book was written to begin with I don't think) EDIT: Checking now it's the second book in the series (Grave Covenant) and they do specifically call the device an E-reader, but not much info is given on the disc it uses. Seems there's only one book per disc however so it can't be too big a storage format. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jun 1, 2011 |
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Jun 1, 2011 07:27
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Taerkar posted:Sci-Fi technology works better when you use a data storage measurement that is completely made up and arbitrary. Such as the Megapulses or whatever of Shadowrun. What's strange about that is, if I remember correctly, everything about decks in Shadowrun were measured in Megapulses. Storage size and transfer rates both being measured in the same unit is at least passable, but computing "power", which would basically be measuring your processor, is also measured in megapulses. It's a very catch all unit of measure.
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Jun 1, 2011 08:00
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Zaodai posted:What's strange about that is, if I remember correctly, everything about decks in Shadowrun were measured in Megapulses. Storage size and transfer rates both being measured in the same unit is at least passable, but computing "power", which would basically be measuring your processor, is also measured in megapulses. It's a very catch all unit of measure. So it's sort of like describing a ship that completed a race in under 12 parsecs, huh?
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Jun 1, 2011 08:05
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I wouldn't go quite that far. At least it's a completely made up unit of measure, and was directly created as a handwave for gameplay purposes. There's actually a surprising amount of detail to it though, having googled it. And a long explanation of why you can use the same unit for everything, which boils down to "Their computers don't work like ours because they're made of future magic."
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Jun 1, 2011 08:14
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Ahhh man, SR 3, eh?  Shadowrun eventually just did away with memory space and bandwidth issues altogether by saying something that boiled down to "Look, memory is so cheap and bandwidth is so fast that unless your players are up to some highly heinous horse-poo poo like trying to download the entire Royal Library, just assume they have sufficient memory on-hand to do whatever they need." Basically, now the only thing that matters is how much processing oomph you can bring to bear on hostile systems, and how sophisticated your attack and defense programs are. Of course, even with hackers capable of achieving miraculous feats of magic in full-VR, rubber-hose crypto still tends to work best.
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Jun 1, 2011 08:35
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wiegieman posted:A couple hundred kilobytes is a lot of plaintext though, and it's about jump drives. Laying it out like it was feels a little anachronistic and silly, but it still has the potential to be a lot of extremely valuable data.
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Jun 1, 2011 08:39
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:Ahhh man, SR 3, eh? I actually like(d) SR3  . I haven't played Shadowrun in ages, but despite it being a very 80s version of the future, I liked how everything was balanced. Sure, you didn't have wireless connections and poo poo so there was a mental disconnect with the tech of the real world, but I'm fine with those differences for the sake of it being fun. It's an alternate future, problem solved. =P
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Jun 1, 2011 08:53
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Helter Skelter posted:Especially if it's been compressed at all. That could easily be upwards of 500 pages. In a field like reality-warping jump drives, it seems to me that 500 pages is "barely getting started." I think it's better to just say that Sci Fi writers should as a matter of course refrain from mentioning the nuts and bolts of how their technologies (especially their technologies which are outgrowths of current technologies!) work, and at all costs avoid relating units of computer science measurements in any format which can be converted to present-day units. Zaodai posted:I actually like(d) SR3 I liked it too, actually, but I think the latest Shadowrun is actually a better concept of a modern cyberpunk future. They made at least a good attempt to solve the "Decker Problem" by making cyberspace and meatspace encounters more or less one and the same, but for hardcore mainframe hacking and stuff, you still wind up with everyone guarding the hacker while he's hacking the system.
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Jun 1, 2011 09:00
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Zaodai posted:I actually like(d) SR3 Well, you'd probably like the 4th edition then. EVERYTHING is wireless now.
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Jun 1, 2011 09:09
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It actually makes sense in the Battletech world for data files to stay small, since there are occasionally reasons to transmit data over the Space Telephone and it's hideously expensive to do so. In that context, sticking to plaintext and highly-compressed monochrome vector-based graphics files as a general rule, but especially for technical manuals, is just smart. And as for optical disk-based storage, I think that's going to be with us for a long time. It's the current best alternative to magnetic storage, and superior to magnetic in that it isn't degraded or ruined by a strong electromagnetic field, cosmic rays, x-rays, etc. Further I imagine that standards are exponentially more difficult to revise when doing so means getting thousands of worlds to switch all at once. It does no good to invent a better storage media that can hold 30 times the old standard, if your shipments of that media arrive at planets that don't have readers for it. Just the other day I was at Fry's looking at optical drives (thinking about getting me a blueray burner, they're down below $150 now) and I noticed they still sell a couple of cheapo 3.5" diskette drive models. And a few years back, there was a major kurfuffle when NASA realized it had a huge library of photography and data from the Lunar landings recorded in 1960's formats but no longer had any working players that could read them. They had to put out a worldwide call and a few dusty old readers were found in basements and they managed to recover a whole bunch of the stuff, but for a while there it was looking like we might actually lose it completely, since the original data specs couldn't be located. Think of how many family's home videos are currently on VHS. Those tapes are degrading, and in 50 years I bet only wealthy collectors and museums have working VHS players. It'll be essentially impossible for my generation to watch our childhood video recordings unless we spend a huge amount of time and effort moving things onto new formats as they come out. I'd guess that something like 95% of all privately-recorded VHS tapes will never be transferred and will eventually be lost. Whereas family portraits done with oil paint on canvas can last hundreds of years. So still using ancient data storage formats in the 31st century makes perfect sense to me.
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Jun 1, 2011 09:10
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I look at SR3 like old Western movies. They're not historically accurate but they're good entertainment. I've only played SR4 (very) briefly, but everything seemed... not dumbed down, but I guess consolidated. They tried to streamline everything and I think it went a little too far in that direction. Shadowrun wasn't that complicated an RPG (relative to other games) to start with. It must have just been too hard to try and adapt all the new updated stuff into the old rules, which were built rather well but not adaptable. You couldn't shorehorn in wireless connections being so rampant into the SR3 rules, it would throw everything on the decking side out of whack. Buuuut I'm getting into derail territory, and more than one post off the beaten path is going to bring back "making GBS threads up the thread" accusations (unless it's about Star Wars). So to bring this back to BattleTech... uh... Go Death Commandos?  Fake Edit: Tarquinn posted:Well, you'd probably like the 4th edition then. EVERYTHING is wireless now. No, that was the opposite of the point of my post, which was that I'm fine giving up wireless connections not being very prevalent in favor of a more in-depth system.
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Jun 1, 2011 09:13
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I'm not sure what Star Wars has to do with anything, their big mechs are slow and seem poorly armed although the AT-ST would be an alright light mech I suppose.
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Jun 1, 2011 12:10
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It was a jab at the thread, because we periodically get 2-3 page Star Wars derails that nobody ever objects to. Though your post makes me wonder how many actual light mechs could be destroyed by Ewoks. That's pretty sad performance, even from a light mech.
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Jun 1, 2011 12:22
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In many many books light mechs are taken down by infantry with light weapons. For example in the first Grey Death Legion novel, Grayson (local mary sue/founder) basically takes down 3 mechs with a machine gun and an inferno SRM. They try to make it more realistic with a support ppc on hand later on... but his underlying master tactic to take down a mech with a machine gun? shoot the cockpit.
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Jun 1, 2011 13:29
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Axe-man posted:In many many books light mechs are taken down by infantry with light weapons. Well, which part would you shoot at if you only had a machinegun and have to take down a motherfucking mech? Of all the main character taking down a mech on foot scenarios in the novels, this was one of the better ones. But then, I have read that book over twenty years ago, and it might actually be quite horrible.
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Jun 1, 2011 13:59
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Tarquinn posted:Well, which part would you shoot at if you only had a machinegun and have to take down a motherfucking mech? At least he was shooting at the cockpit cause it had little armor. The locust overheating doing nothing but crouching in an alley and firing machine guns? eh not so much. the novel is enjoyable for what it is, though grayson appears to have powers of mystical charisma where everyone even enemies seem to realize how great he is, and egg him forward.
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Jun 1, 2011 14:05
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Chronojam posted:I'm not sure what Star Wars has to do with anything, their big mechs are slow and seem poorly armed although the AT-ST would be an alright light mech I suppose.
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Jun 1, 2011 16:57
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Revenant Threshold posted:Rip the arms off of one of these and you've pretty much got one. I think this is a better fit. Also, the AT-AT is just as useless as any BattleTech quad.
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Jun 1, 2011 17:11
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Wait a second, you guys said that books are pretty much Lostech because everyone uses the kindle in BT. I'd guess that nobody sends physical space mail either and if they do it's something that was written on some kind of archaic iPad. So am I correct in thinking that people in BT don't know how to write with a pen anymore?
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Jun 1, 2011 17:16
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hankor posted:Wait a second, you guys said that books are pretty much Lostech because everyone uses the kindle in BT. Well, unless sticks and dirt are Lostech I would imagine children still learn to draw straight and curved lines.
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Jun 1, 2011 17:32
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elitebuster posted:I think this is a better fit. Guys, please. This has always been the AT-ST. And you're forgetting what an AT-AT is for...it's an infantry carrier. A grossly inefficient one, mind you, but you have to admit...if you want to get your infantry safe somewhere, it'll get the job done. You know, unless you're in a hurry or something.
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Jun 1, 2011 17:39
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jng2058 posted:Guys, please. This has always been the AT-ST. When your infantry carrier can be killed with a tripwire, you need a new infantry carrier.
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Jun 1, 2011 17:45
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elitebuster posted:I think this is a better fit. The Raptor looks so happy :iamafag:
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Jun 1, 2011 17:53
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Tarquinn posted:The Raptor looks so happy :iamafag: You're right, that thing has a major boner showing
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Jun 1, 2011 18:05
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hankor posted:I'd guess that nobody sends physical space mail either and if they do it's something that was written on some kind of archaic iPad. So am I correct in thinking that people in BT don't know how to write with a pen anymore? Quite the opposite. ComStar actually typically sends a jumpship once a month to deliver actual hard-copy printouts to planets they don't normally send HPG messages to (and there are a few, the 'D' circuit I believe). That it's actually cheaper to hire a dedicated jumpship to do so is quite funny. Also, those printouts? Well, you remember the printer paper with the little perforated holes so it could be mechanically fed through the printer? ... Yeah.
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Jun 1, 2011 18:23
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PoptartsNinja posted:Quite the opposite. ComStar actually typically sends a jumpship once a month to deliver actual hard-copy printouts to planets they don't normally send HPG messages to (and there are a few, the 'D' circuit I believe). That it's actually cheaper to hire a dedicated jumpship to do so is quite funny. Oh god. Dot matrix. Truly the Clans' mission to scour the IS has never been more justified. Who could live like that?
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Jun 1, 2011 18:53
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Zaodai posted:Though your post makes me wonder how many actual light mechs could be destroyed by Ewoks. That's pretty sad performance, even from a light mech. At least a Panther can take a giant log to the chest without crumpling like a tin can.
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Jun 1, 2011 19:17
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Tarquinn posted:Well, you'd probably like the 4th edition then. EVERYTHING is wireless now. Oh god no. I've seen bad, BAAAAD stories of GMs pulling bullshit like allowing an enemy hacker to disable your Smartgun system and even some really devious ones claim that you could kill a street sam because their cyberware must have some interface port to control. I prefer my alternate 80s future, retro tech. Just like my Fallout. In topic but not related to the ongoing operation. Poptarts, do you play MWLL?
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Jun 1, 2011 19:22
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You can still buy continuous-feed dot matrix printers. They have a specific application that still hasn't been (cheaply) replaced by another technology... printing out duplicate forms, such as hardcopy medical bills, where someone also needs to sign the thing and have a carbon-copy of the signature. E-signatures ought to have replaced that technology by now, but there are a lot of areas (medical billing, in particular) where it's easier to keep using an obsolete technology than to get dozens of different companies to all switch to a newer standard all at once without interrupting service for the tens of thousands of independent customers using that technology. So ComStar is using tractor-fed dot matrix printouts because something something. (I think complaining about stupid things in Battletech technology is easy, but coming up with semi-plausible explanations for why things are as they are is much more challenging and fun!)
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Jun 1, 2011 19:27
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Leperflesh posted:E-signatures ought to have replaced that technology by now, but there are a lot of areas (medical billing, in particular) where it's easier to keep using an obsolete technology than to get dozens of different companies to all switch to a newer standard all at once without interrupting service for the tens of thousands of independent customers using that technology. I work in the operations and IT sides of banking, and alot of banks use outdated systems because it's easier to keep running a less efficient system that you know works than to spend the time and money to upgrade to a more efficient system because during the switch-over you are virtually guaranteed to have some screw up which will affect customers. I wonder how commerce works in Battletech? Does every planetary government/exchange/whatever have money on deposit with ComStar, or have they reverted to a intrinsically valuable currency?
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Jun 1, 2011 21:12
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Nevets posted:I wonder how commerce works in Battletech? Does every planetary government/exchange/whatever have money on deposit with ComStar, or have they reverted to a intrinsically valuable currency? The Successor States all have their own currencies, as have most of the bigger periphery states.
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Jun 1, 2011 22:14
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Magni posted:The Successor States all have their own currencies, as have most of the bigger periphery states. Successor State currencies are backed by a number of different things: the normal "material wealth" poo poo like gold or diamonds or whatever, but also the number of resource-rich worlds a state controls (note that worlds rich in water that doesn't need purifying count as this), as well as Germanium stockpiles (Germanium being the particular radioactive material that JumpShips need to operate their jump drive). The C-Bill, however, is a gift certificate: it is backed by access to ComStar's HPG grid and one 1 C-Bill is worth one page of text transmitted one time (so, to any world within 50 LY) or one second of voice messaging. As a result, the C-Bill is an extremely stable currency, while Successor State currencies are generally not, as was illustrated by the Lyran Kroner, traditionally a currency worth about 2 C-Bills a piece, losing half its value in the 3050's after both financing the Davion war against the Capellans and then the Clan invasion.
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Jun 1, 2011 22:21
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Also, a lot of the more backwater worlds tend to use currency for large or corporate transactions, but a bit of a bartering system mixed in for the common folk.
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Jun 1, 2011 22:31
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I figured with contact between worlds limited at best even inside the same state, there is no way to (quickly and cheaply) verify that Mechwarrior Buysalot has 100,000 dingots on deposit at the First Amalgamated Bank of Planet FarAway. So no cautious person is going to accept anything but physical currency in interplanetary commerce. And unless printing presses are LosTech, counterfeiting would be very profitable since governments would have to issue bills in large denominations to make physical currency transactions without using wheelbarrows.
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Jun 1, 2011 22:56
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That's why C-Bills are mostly used for interplanetary or interfaction trades. You're basically buying with money you have on deposit with ComStar rather than walking in to buy a mech holding a big bag with a dollar sign on it. The individual house currencies probably use a similar system for planetary scales. Or knowing how BattleTech technology works, maybe something like an old Shadowrun credstick. For transactions you put the stick in a slot and it gets either increased or lessened depending on the transaction.
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Jun 1, 2011 23:04
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Nevets posted:I figured with contact between worlds limited at best even inside the same state, there is no way to (quickly and cheaply) verify that Mechwarrior Buysalot has 100,000 dingots on deposit at the First Amalgamated Bank of Planet FarAway. So no cautious person is going to accept anything but physical currency in interplanetary commerce. To their credit, Inner Sphere currency is like the modern Federal Reserve's wet dream. It's got electronics and poo poo woven into the paper using technology from the Star League era. If you can counterfeit it you are probably wasting your time, because if you can print fake House currency, you have access to LosTech microelectronic manufacturing. You could put it to a much more profitable use in the long term, particularly if you are a Lyran or Free Worlder, since in those two realms, you can be elevated to Nobility for business holdings, not just land.
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Jun 1, 2011 23:29
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Defiance Industries posted:To their credit, Inner Sphere currency is like the modern Federal Reserve's wet dream. It's got electronics and poo poo woven into the paper using technology from the Star League era. If you can counterfeit it you are probably wasting your time, because if you can print fake House currency, you have access to LosTech microelectronic manufacturing. You could put it to a much more profitable use in the long term, particularly if you are a Lyran or Free Worlder, since in those two realms, you can be elevated to Nobility for business holdings, not just land. Lostech: Worth More than Money
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Jun 1, 2011 23:59
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