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Pratchett really isn't the kind of author that likes to wrap up the lives of his characters though.
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May 31, 2011 19:52
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Yeah, I'm not sure where the whole "wrapping things up" comes from, unless it's just reading way too much into the end of I Shall Wear Midnight being the end of the Tiffany Aching series. Unseen Academicals certainly wasn't the "end" of any arc.
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May 31, 2011 20:48
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Alhazred posted:Pratchett really isn't the kind of author that likes to wrap up the lives of his characters though. Isn't he? Several characters have had "arcs" that ended with their deaths or happy normal lives. Susan, for example, settled down with Lobsang. Cohen finished his role as the "end" of the Barbarian hero age. Tiffany Aching clearly is done with I Shall Wear Midnight. Magrat's long since retired. Rincewind (and this is Word of God) is done with his wacky adventures. I'm not saying Discworld is over with Snuff, but I am saying that Pratchett probably realizes time is running out.
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May 31, 2011 21:19
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Mister Roboto posted:Isn't he? Several characters have had "arcs" that ended with their deaths or happy normal lives. Susan, for example, settled down with Lobsang. quote:Rincewind (and this is Word of God) is done with his wacky adventures. When you see interviews with Pratchett he's the first to tell that any evolution of characters or the world itself has happened accidentally, he didn't want to make a chronicle or anything. If something or someone develops in the stories it's because it would serve the story not for development's own sake. Plus there really is nothing to indicate that Vimes is ready to retire or that Vetinari is ready to leave the city to Moist. I don't really see any signs that any of the characters are approaching any form for endgame.
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May 31, 2011 21:42
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Vimes is definitely ready for retirement, since he was late 30s at least in Guards Guards. Also Pratchett's been mentioning his heart hurting after long runs and other stuff like that in his last couple Watch books so he could be due a heart attack (I think I've posted this in this thread multiple times but I'm pretty sure Sam Vimes is going to die).
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May 31, 2011 23:29
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He doesn't necessarily have to end any character's arc. He's always made a point of saying that Vetinari stays in power because he's actually running the city well so no one wants to have a city where he's not in charge. Also, he's loving scarily effective at remaining in charge. What with the Undertaking, and the way he's been setting the city up to run on it's own without his input being needed just showing that the city is doing fine and will be in good hands would be an end to most of the main character's arcs without killing them or having them live happily ever after.
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Jun 1, 2011 04:15
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Alhazred posted:She did? She and Lobsang shared a perfect moment but Pratchett hasn't said what happens after that Yes, but the other examples I provided are of characters whose time came and passed--so he HAS shown full character arcs. In theory, Discworld could go forever, with new characters and new arcs. But Pratchett himself has said that Discworld dies with him, and he knows time is running out. And I'm sure he respects his readership and knows that the majority would like some sense of fulfillment and completion. I think he's a very intelligent and empathic man, and I think he WOULD finish up Discworld's arcs as a result.
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Jun 1, 2011 06:04
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Regarding "Discworld dies with Terry", I thought he was willing to pass it on to his daughter? I'm not sure if I'd prefer that. Even if she's good, she's not Terry. 
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Jun 1, 2011 08:27
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Konec Hry posted:Regarding "Discworld dies with Terry", I thought he was willing to pass it on to his daughter? Yeah, I've heard that being said as well. I believe the idea is that if she wants, she can continue it, but otherwise... It's sort of like Douglas Adams. You just can't quite capture the feeling with someone trying to capture the feeling, you know? Eoin Coifer was just...an odd writer. Not bad, just not Hitchhiker quality.
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Jun 1, 2011 08:38
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Mister Roboto posted:
Certainly while I'm alive I wouldn't let anybody else write Discworld. When I'm dead - well, that's up to my executors. quote:I think he's a very intelligent and empathic man, and I think he WOULD finish up Discworld's arcs as a result.
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Jun 1, 2011 11:36
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Discworld isn't some Wheel of Time type story where there are issues that HAVE to be resolved for the books to make sense. Characters reoccur, but aside from that the characters have a story/adventure that gets told in a single volume. You can think of it like: Vimes isn't dead, and he has some adventures, and probably dies at some point, we just don't hear about it. I mean what is there about Vimes that isn't "resolved" already?
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Jun 1, 2011 14:40
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subx posted:I mean what is there about Vimes that isn't "resolved" already? What isn't called Sybil that might make him back down. Yeah, probably nothing.
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Jun 1, 2011 17:06
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rejutka posted:What isn't called Sybil that might make him back down. The Vimes-Weatherwax Paradox rears it's ugly head again.
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Jun 1, 2011 20:45
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Nilbop posted:The Vimes-Weatherwax Paradox rears it's ugly head again. Weatherwax could definitely make Vimes back down. Weatherwax is far more stubborn than Vimes. Weatherwax is like an idealized avatar of the concept of Stubbornness.
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Jun 1, 2011 20:51
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Nah. Granny wouldn't go underhanded with Vimes. That said, after the dust settles, she'd make sure Nanny knew she didn't go underhanded, which is why she didn't win.
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Jun 1, 2011 20:59
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Should Vimes and Granny go head-to-head, even Fate and The Lady would throw up their hands. I don't think we will ever see a definitive "end" to the Discworld even with Pterry's passing, but we will hopefully get some closure.
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Jun 2, 2011 18:34
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Can anyone imagine a situation where Vimes and Weatherwax would be in opposition, though? The only way I can see it happening would be if Vimes didn't fully understand what was going on. In which case Granny Weatherwax would educate him and then he'd go out and do her dirty work for her.
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Jun 2, 2011 21:34
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Vimes and Weatherwax would never have a direct confrontation, if only because Nanny Ogg, Captain Carrot, and probably Vetinari would be doing absolutely everything in their power to prevent such a meeting.
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Jun 2, 2011 21:47
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"Well, some people, now, they say that Lancre's always been an unmoving' place, but then some people also say that Ankh-Morpork's an unstoppin' force, so I ask you, do some people really think about their metalfours? Politics is good and all but I've always said it's best to not listen to the people when doing it." As Carrot politely listened to the talkative, but strangely endearing old woman, he began to sense something...was about to happen. He surreptitiously glanced aside to the surrounding hobnobbing crowds, but the she had an unerring ability to stay in his line of sight like an iceberg with a taste for ironic names. "Now, the lads here, well, they're a good strong bunch if I do say so myself, but they've never been ones for shiny armor. And well, you know us young ladies just go weak in the knees for men in uniform." The little old lady pantomimed this weakness with a grip that almost turned his arm numb. "Ah, thank you, Mrs..." "Ogg. It's been Miss Ogg for a very long time, too." "Er. Yes. Well. We of the Watch are very happy to be establishing a branch here. Verence certainly is a fast-moving monarch and this will definitely improve ties between Ankh-Morpork and Lancre." The perpetually jovial expression on Nanny Ogg's face looked slightly worried. "Hmm...yes, that's certainly one way to put it. There's others who...share the point of view that Lancre can handle its own problems without outside influence." Now it was her turn to glance aside, as if she sensed an impending titanic clash. "Do you foresee any opposition, Miss Ogg? Our Commander Vimes can be very...singleminded about people doing what they're told." "I would say that singleminded people tend to work best when kept single. I once heard a clever fellow talk about what happens in similar situations, something about a pair of doctors."1 Carrot caught the subtle worry in her tone and turned to watch the crowds of diplomats laughing in that practiced manner with heads tilted back and vaguely resembling bullfrogs. "Miss Ogg, this is a very delicate time, perhaps we should ensure that any...unfortunate meetings should not happen." "I agree. You're a big lad, you see any tall figures with pointy hats?" Carrot saw a black forest. "Perhaps a few." "We need to find one in particular. Right. You talk to yours and I'll go mind my own single." She rushed off. Carrot waded through the crowds as forcefully and politically politely as he could. "Excuse me, madam, pardon me, sir, official watch business, might I pass by, sir? Thank you." YOU'RE WELCOME. * * * 1Indeed, Leonard Da Quirm once theorized about when an unstoppable object met an immovable wall. He wasn't 100% on the outcome. * * * Carrot eventually found the empty circle with a plumed figure managing to keep the crowds apart by sheer sourness. "Good evening, sir." Carrot saluted. Vimes smiled slightly, but still managed to do so as if he had a mouthful of lemons.2 So far he had managed to manage about 30 seconds of small talk with each diplomat before just stopping and glaring until they found someone else to flash their nostrils at. "I wish Vetinari would stop sending me to these things. He knows the only good politickin' I'm good at is making sure people know what's good for 'em." "Yes, sir. That may be why he does send you." "Hrm. Well, so far this event has been survivable. These are my kind of people. They do honest work and live honest lives. I don't blame them for not wanting Ankh-Morpork here. I hear their last major political crisis was an epidemic and that was because three people caught a cold." "They certainly don't seem to be a hotbed of criminal activity." "No, not yet. Sounds like this Verence wants to establish a network with Vetinari to prevent anyone ELSE from realizing that and starting one." "I've always supported pre-emptive movements, sir. And, ah, speaking of which, you haven't encountered anyone particularly opposed to our presence, have you sir?" "I can say the witches are fairly particular about what they're called, Miss this and Mistress that, I can never remember their names anyways. Otherwise, it's just the usual general grousing about change. Why do you ask?" "Just preventing a need for doctors, sir." 2He did, in fact, wish he had done so, as he had heard about the last time there was a diplomatic meeting in Lancre and had remembered some vague lore about Vampires with oral fixations and lemons. * * * "I ain't liking 'em here." Granny frowned at Nanny. "It's all well and good to be PREVENTATIVE and all, but there's no need to bring in these shiny city soldiers. Things have worked well here for years and there's no need for all this talk of change. I once heard someone say Ankh-Morpork was 'unstoppable'. Huh! Sounds like one o' them metaforged ideas, and you knows how I feel about those." Granny stared at the crowds of witches and watchmen from her chosen corner. "I'd like to see the head o' this bunch. Probably some stuffed shirt who thinks of us as lower-class folk." "Well, now, Esme, I've just been talking to one of them, they seem to be an alright bunch." "That's as may be, but I'm still waitin' to see what their leader plans to do. If he thinks he can change Lancre, I'll have to have words with him." Nanny suddenly felt like looking around for icebergs. "I...don't know if he's around, Esme. Probably just a boring old toff anyways, probably won't even bother speaking to us." "Huh! Well, he's going to, whether he wants to or not. Let's have a look at this Commander Vimes for ourselves." Over Nanny's murmured protests, she stormed into the crowds that parted unconsciously for her. "Oi, Esme, maybe that's not the best idea." She bustled after the tall pointy figure through the crowds of dark robes. " 'scuse me, skinny, I have to stop a doctors' meeting." THAT'S FINE BY ME Nanny paused, then quickened her pace through the sea of souls. * * * "Right. I'm getting sick of having to smile for every snort." Vimes put down his mug of untouched Lancre cider, which had somehow managed to extinguish his cigar with its fumes alone. "If I have to talk to another stuck-up diplomat or drunken list of reasons why aunt pork shouldn't come to Lancre, I'm going to have to file an incident report." Carrot looked around hurriedly and noticed the shark's fin witch hat swimming towards them. "Ah, well, sir, perhaps it's best to leave early." "No, Carrot, Vetinari wanted me to meet every important person here. He was very particular on that point. He just never said I had to be nice about it." "Perhaps I could take over the handshaking and smiling for a while, sir? Perhaps right now?" Vimes looked at him strangely. "Carrot, you act as if there's some sort of jaws about to clamp down on me. I can handle anything this country has." He turned and stared grumpily at the sea of people, as if daring it to get in his way. To his minor surprise, it immediately parted. A tall, striking witch stood before him. A shorter, friendlier-looking witch soon caught up, but for some reason seemed at a loss for words. Carrot felt it as well, as if the entire universe had held its breath on the edge of a millisecond as the unstopping gaze met the unblinking eye. Granny Weatherwax stared. Vimes stared. The universe stared. And then Granny Weatherwax nodded. Vimes nodded. "Welcome to Lancre, Commander Vimes." "Thank you. I'm afraid you have the advantage over me, Madam...?" Nanny made a small choking noise. Carrot heard, but was, for the first time he could remember, at a loss for action. "Madam Weatherwax. Miss Esmerelda Weatherwax, to some." "It's a pleasure." He paused. "And Mister Vimes is fine." "Tell me...Commander Vimes. Why are you here in Lancre?" Vimes, holding her gaze, spoke with clarity for the first time that evening. "Because I'm a stubborn bastard. And sometimes, after all the handshaking and scoffing, and the bigwigs have told everyone who their new friends are, the world needs a stubborn bastard willing to do the real work underneath so those friendships can stay on the surface. And it takes a real nasty piece of work to be able to do that...a feeling, I suspect, you are quite familiar with." Now it was Carrot's turn to choke slightly. Granny stared back at Vimes, an icy glare meeting a steel face. "Really, Commander Vimes...tell me, have you ever wondered what happens when something that won't move meets something that won't stop?" "I've never been one much for philosophy, but...I'd say sod 'em both, because while they're busy metaforcing, the rest of us will get along with what needs to be done." Carrot glanced at Nanny Ogg, who glanced back. Both had already made the choking noise and had no further background noises available. And then...Granny Weatherwax smiled. And held out her hand. Vimes shook it. "Mister Vimes...I believe you are correct." She paused. "In everything you have said. That sort of clear thinking will fit in just fine around here." "We're simply here to make sure that doesn't change...Miss Weatherwax." As one professional unstoppable force met the other, the universe watched as progress managed to happen. Carrot let out the breath he didn't realize he'd been holding, and noticed, out of the corner of his eye, Nanny Ogg speaking to someone in a dark robe he vaguely recognized. "So why are you even here, you bugger, if there wasn't any work to be done?" WELL, I WANTED TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AS WELL * * * Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jun 4, 2011 |
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Jun 3, 2011 07:30
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Mister Roboto posted: I like it, maybe you should send it to Pterry?
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Jun 3, 2011 07:56
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I don't want them to meet because it's just going to feel like terrible Pratchett fanfiction like the last two books 
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Jun 3, 2011 09:45
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AXE COP posted:I don't want them to meet because it's just going to feel like terrible Pratchett fanfiction like the last two books How in anyway are the last two books fanfiction other than "they have a lot of characters in it"?
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Jun 3, 2011 17:35
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Tarezax posted:
Haha, was that sarcasm? I whipped that up quickly just for fun. I seriously doubt he'd really want to read some random fanfic for various reasons.
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Jun 3, 2011 21:32
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I don't know why, but I get the feeling Angua is going to be the one killed off before all is said and done. I don't really see any other way for them to wrap up the Watch story arc, having Vimes die or quietly retire and putting her in his place seems a bit too neat. Plus, that means they don't have to resolve her relationship with Carrot, which Terry has been reluctant to do.
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Jun 4, 2011 15:14
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I honestly don't see the need for wrapping up anything or why characters has to die to achieve that.
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Jun 4, 2011 16:47
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Alhazred posted:I honestly don't see the need for wrapping up anything or why characters has to die to achieve that. Agreed, I really can't stand that sort of closure with fictional properties.
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Jun 4, 2011 16:54
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If Pratchett did decide to write the absolutely final Discworld book that wraps everything up I'd much rather have him do it like Bill Watterson than have him beginning to kill off characters:
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Jun 4, 2011 18:06
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If Vimes could retire without becoming one of those old ex-policemen who do nothing but hang around the Watch-house, if Granny can get a quiet drink with Nanny and if Rincewind can get a few friends and a baked potato then I'll be over the moon.
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Jun 5, 2011 08:43
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I started relistening to all the Watch audiobooks. I decided to while I fiddled around with a new way of coloring I would draw Vimes. http://kellhound1365.deviantart.com/art/vimes-211776427
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Jun 5, 2011 08:52
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KellHound posted:I started relistening to all the Watch audiobooks. I decided to while I fiddled around with a new way of coloring I would draw Vimes. http://kellhound1365.deviantart.com/art/vimes-211776427 That's pretty good! Clean lines and nice coloring.
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Jun 5, 2011 08:53
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He stayed inside the lines too!
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Jun 5, 2011 16:43
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I was seriously unimpressed by the audiobooks for Thud! and Making Money (the latter is unsurprising because I hated that book, but then I wasn't the one who picked out the audiobook either). I don't like the person they got to read them at all. He reads everything with the same pacing and inflection, and he can't do voices. Easily some of the worst audiobooks I've ever heard (but I'm not much of a connoisseur).
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Jun 6, 2011 03:16
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FactsAreUseless posted:I was seriously unimpressed by the audiobooks for Thud! and Making Money (the latter is unsurprising because I hated that book, but then I wasn't the one who picked out the audiobook either). I don't like the person they got to read them at all. He reads everything with the same pacing and inflection, and he can't do voices. Easily some of the worst audiobooks I've ever heard (but I'm not much of a connoisseur). Are you talking about Stephen Briggs? If you are, then between that and your hatred of Making Money, I have to wonder about your ability to be right about anything.
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Jun 6, 2011 12:22
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FactsAreUseless posted:I was seriously unimpressed by the audiobooks for Thud! and Making Money (the latter is unsurprising because I hated that book, but then I wasn't the one who picked out the audiobook either). I don't like the person they got to read them at all. He reads everything with the same pacing and inflection, and he can't do voices. Easily some of the worst audiobooks I've ever heard (but I'm not much of a connoisseur). Unless I'm mistaken those are read by Stephen Briggs, who has been reading Discworld/Terry Pratchett for like the past 10 years or something. The only other person to read Discworld (I think) is Nigel Planer. subx fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Jun 6, 2011 |
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Jun 6, 2011 13:25
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Tony Robinson did the abridged ones.
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Jun 6, 2011 13:31
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thebardyspoon posted:Tony Robinson did the abridged ones. Ah ok, I've never listened to an abridged version so I didn't even think about that being a different person.
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Jun 6, 2011 13:44
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Nilbop posted:How in anyway are the last two books fanfiction other than "they have a lot of characters in it"? I really liked Unseen Academicals, horrible US cover notwithstanding, but I just finished ISWM and while it was a better book than most books, I really thought I perceived a drop in quality, not so much in the selection of characters and plot points, but in the prose. There's stuff like a massive lack of contractions where normal people would use them, and people repeatedly using Tiffany's full name throughout conversations for no apparent reason, that make my eye keep tripping on the page. Paragraphs seem oddly structured, dialogue seems more monolithic and soliloquizing than is normal for a Discworld novel (TA novels included--I've been reading them straight through in order for the first time). There are some parts where it returns to the fluidity and cleverness of the prose I've come to expect from Pratchett--the scene where Tiffany and Lelitia go to the library is one--but that only reinforces the fact that it seems a lot more stilted elsewhere. I think the best way to put it is that, as someone who's spent the past two years in graduate-level creative writing workshops, it reminds me of my own prose before I've sent it through workshop and everyone has told me that it's metaphorically full of jagged splinters that need to be sanded smooth. It feels like an unpolished or semi-polished draft that no one did a readability pass on. Disclaimer: I'm going to go through some of the older books again and try to confirm for myself that the writing style has changed, but I haven't yet; I literally just finished ISWM this afternoon.
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Jun 7, 2011 04:22
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JerryLee posted:
I've been getting a similar feeling from Pratchett's writing lately as well. It's as if his editor is missing things. Or perhaps the speech-to-text he uses now doesn't allow him to self-correct as well anymore...which is very sad.
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Jun 7, 2011 06:51
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JerryLee posted:It feels like an unpolished or semi-polished draft that no one did a readability pass on. This is exactly what I meant. I really want to like them, but something about the writing just... doesn't work for me. I can go back and read Night Watch for the hundredth time and still enjoy the hell out of every page, but I can barely get ten pages into UA before I have to give up.
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Jun 7, 2011 12:47
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AXE COP posted:This is exactly what I meant. I really want to like them, but something about the writing just... doesn't work for me. I can go back and read Night Watch for the hundredth time and still enjoy the hell out of every page, but I can barely get ten pages into UA before I have to give up. Reading parts of ISWM was depressing because I could tell that all the great Pratchettian ideas and characters were still there, they just weren't coming through as well in the prose anymore. I don't have a copy of it handy, but I don't recall having many problems with UA when i read it a year or so ago. It's just with ISWM that it hit me all of a sudden. I guess we'll see what happens with Snuff 
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Jun 7, 2011 21:59
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