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Personally I wouldn't mind some info on how to keep dogs from running after stray cats. Spirit does fine with Baron - chases him a little bit but never really bugs him, since Baron will give her a swat if she gets to be too much of a jerk - but Spirit goes loving crazy barking at the stray cats around my place, and if we go outside for a walk and there's one sitting there she wants to charge after it so bad that most of the time I just turn her around and take her back inside, then try again a few minutes later and hope the cat's gone and she's forgotten about it.
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Jun 2, 2011 19:14
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The BLT posted:I'm interested in hearing how you would get her to not want to kill the wild cats, especially if it is easier, that might be a good stepping stone. I didn't say it would be easy. Just easier. Outside you tend to be more conditioned to watch your dog, and you're more likely to let your guard slip at home. Because you have your dog on a leash and the offending cats are free to move away it's a safer environment. A lot of people go to a basic obedience class when their dog is having issues. Sometimes that's appropriate. But sometimes the client needs help catered to their situation. So the switching bedding is a good start, but it's just that, a start. I still highly recommend you check out some 1 on 1 training opportunities with a good school. The couple hundred bucks it may cost will be very well spent if you get quality face to face advice catered specifically to you and your dog. So basically, when tackling prey drive outside I would work hard not to offer any punishment. I think that 99% of the time, corrections add stress and/or excitement into the situation, which ultimately makes it worse for yourself. Plus, a dog super tuned in on a prey item isn't going to understand what you want it to do instead if you're cranking on a prong collar, or popping the leash. Work a lot around the dog's threshold. That is, the point where she's aware that a cat is around, but she can still hear you and is capable of responding to you. When a dog is over threshold they simply cannot hear you, so trying to do anything at that point is useless. If a dog goes over threshold, that's your fault as a handler. Sometimes it can't be avoided, but I mention it so you don't reprimand your dog in these situations - quietly reprimand yourself and figure out how not to let it happen in the future. I would try to find the best food in the world for your dog. Garlic roast, pepperoni pizza -- something really really special to whip out when you see a cat. Before your dog goes over threshold get her attention and just start popping bits of pizza into her mouth. Try to keep your distance from the cat so as not to push her threshold. Basically you want to create a subconscious association between "see a cat" and "get pizza in my face". Hopefully the desire for the awesome food will outweigh freaking out about a cat halfway down the block. I was considering suggesting Premack for this, but I'm not sure I would since the cat and dog will be cohabitating. What do other people think? I think Premack might run the risk of still associating cats as prey animals. But admittedly I could be thinking about it in the wrong framework. Kiri koli, I would probably Premack your situation. See a thing = get dog to sit/focus = maybe chase that thing. The focus will be strengthened by Premacking it, and it'll be easier to tell Psyche "nope, not this time!" and continue on your way. Keep your dog well and truly exhausted, make sure she's happy in a crate, and give her lots of kongs, bones and other types of chews to keep her occupied at home. Never let her and the cat be in the same room without her being leashed and muzzled, and even then I would not recommend that happen for at least the first month. Still go see a trainer. Don't be a cheapskate. This is worth both your time and money.
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Jun 2, 2011 19:20
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Okay, PIers, I have what is probably a really stupid question. I'm going to ask my trainer too, but that will have to wait until next week and I'm pretty freaked out right now. We just moved to a new house. It's been great so far, really quiet, and Psyche handled the move really well and seems to be enjoying it. Just a few barking fits so far inside and they were easily quelled. There's a stray cat wandering around, but I think we can deal with that. We live on a small drive offshoot to a major road with only us and another house on it. There's another dead end road close by that's longer, so I figured we would walk there. There may be other trails nearby I can walk her on, but I haven't found them yet and everything around here is private property, so there may be nowhere else to walk. So we headed over there today for the first time and the very first house has an off leash, unsupervised dog on it. The dog walked right over to us and I couldn't get Psyche away fast enough. There was nowhere to go. I was trying not to panic at this point, I was sure that Psyche was going to rip his face off and I was ready to step in between them. Nothing happened, they sniffed each other, the other dog got bored and then walked back home. After he started walking away, THEN Psyche freaked out and I had to turn her in the other direction and run off. I had no treats with me because we haven't unpacked them yet. That was a huge mistake, I know, but it's a beautiful day and she hasn't had a good walk in ages because of the move and my in-laws. But now I'm cut off. I'm sure that dog (and probably others) will be out all the time. Do I just never go that way again or do I get the yummiest treats possible and dare to ease Psyche over there over the course of the summer? She has never actually hurt another dog or attacked one that was right in her face. She has only ever postured from a distance. Is she likely to attack now that she's met the other dog, if she sees him again? I can't keep him away from her, hell, that dog could just walk over to our yard. No one was watching him. We'll run into the same problem no matter where we go, if we try a park or a path, even though we only go to uncrowded places during off hours. Even our dog class has been invaded by off leash dogs. At least at the apartment, the dogs were leashed, most of the time... I guess I'll have to confine her to our yard. 
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Jun 3, 2011 22:28
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Can you talk to the owner/neighbor and just straight up say that your dog will attack theirs if theirs is off leash and comes to say hi? Obviously that only works for the one dog next door, I don't know what to do about all the other ones Congrats on the move though! It sounds nice
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Jun 4, 2011 03:42
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Cassiope posted:Can you talk to the owner/neighbor and just straight up say that your dog will attack theirs if theirs is off leash and comes to say hi? They're not our neighbors, strictly speaking. There's our house, then a bit of trees behind us and then the next street over. I was going to walk her on that street because it's longer than ours, which is not really a street but just an extended driveway that connects two houses. Since they leave the dog unattended anyway, I doubt they'll care. They'll just say I shouldn't walk my dog, even though I was not on their property and the dog came up to me.
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Jun 4, 2011 04:10
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Okay, question for you fine folks. Koji freaks the hell out every time we cook now. I admit, it's my fault, it's because the smoke detectors have gone off every time I used to use my cast iron grill pan. I don't use it anymore. Our apartment is stupid in that there is a smoke alarm right outside the kitchen and right inside our bedroom (which is right outside the kitchen. Seriously, there are two smoke detectors within 3 feet of the kitchen and a foot of each other.) The last time the smoke detector went off it was from steam from our veggies. It scared him so bad he peed on the balcony twice and tried to squeeze through the bars and jump off the second story.Now every time we're in the kitchen to get some bread to make a sandwich (we're not even talking using the toaster yet, just grabbing the bread whether or not we want toast) he starts panting and jogging through the apartment. If we want to cook something one of us has to hold him while feeding treats, which he will totally eat for a while, but then he'll become uninterested. We can put him out on the balcony with the door closed, but that just seems like a bandaid (and if, god forbid, the alarms go off again, he might try sqeezing through the bars again. He got up to his shoulders last time.) I've tried cheese, peanut butter, salmon treats, bread (dog fuckin loves bread), and frozen broccoli (yeah, he goes nuts for it, go figure.) And it works so long as there are treats or he just escalates. We'll sprinkle it on the floor and he'll go for it (like the cheese he'll try to get every last bit in the carpet) and he'll take treats from the kitchen while I'm cooking. It's getting to the point where we're not really cooking anymore, or I have Jeff take him on a walk while I do something really quickly. It's only stovetop or toaster things, oven things don't bother him. The only thing is, as soon as he comes back in from outside, whether the balcony or a walk, he smells the sear or the food or the heat, and he starts to panic just a little bit. When we finish and sit down to eat, he's okay. My friend suggested Rescue Remedy, but I don't know. What am I doing wrong or should be doing? He used to be my cooking buddy and hang out in the hallway to watch me cook, but the smoke alarms have made him into a mess (I hate those alarms a lot, too, I don't blame him.) Same friend also tossed him in their car yesterday to take our new foster to the vet (double whammy. They met Jeff while he was walking both dogs, and decided to take him with. Why? I don't know) without his harness or crate, so he tried to poop in their car, even though they know he's been getting better BECAUSE of the harness or crate. I was a little upset to hear this. Hopefully when he's back in our routine he won't take a step back. He now hardly pants when we go on a hike or to the dog park. He's still excited, but he no longer sounded like he's was going to choke himself from hyperventilating. Argh.
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Jun 4, 2011 18:21
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The BLT posted:I have a pretty important question about what I may be able to do to train my dog to not want to kill any cat she sees. rivals posted:I know WolfensteinBag has had a lot of success managing Buddy's prey drive but I'm not sure what methods she used so hopefully she'll chime in. Oh, sorry, didn't see any of this! I hardly check this thread. Anyway, yeah, we've got our husky, Buddy, used to living with a cat, and she's nervous as hell, so we're seeing that as a major victory (since she'll dart at the drop of a hat). It took us years of training before we got her, though, so you have to keep in mind that you have to do a lot of groundwork before you can even start approaching training with a cat in the house, where your dog will actually be in close proximity. Like a life less said, it's a good idea to work with a one-on-one trainer with the issue because if you don't have experience with this sort of thing before hand, and you don't have a really solid understanding of your dog's body language and what sort of training he responds well to, you have a really huge potential for something absolutely horrible to happen. All I can really tell you is how I went about Buddy's training to give you an idea of the process. Keep in mind, though, this worked for US because of Buddy's specific motivations and reactions. It's quite possible that something different would work better for your dog, and even possible that this method wouldn't even give you any results. It's just what worked for US. The whole process really started with going on our walks. Walks are a HUGE motivator for Buddy, so often times I'll use the actual walking around & sniffing stuff as his reward for being good. In general, if Buddy did something inappropriate on his walk, he would get a command for whatever problem it was at the time, and I'd shorten his leash so he'd have no choice but to (boringly) walk beside me until he behaved himself (i.e. removing the self-reward from whatever behavior he was doing). Using this method, Buddy knows "Walk Nice", "Out of the Grass", and most importantly, "No Chasing". Buddy love, love, loves wildlife, especially squirrels & bunnies. When we first got him, he'd dart the second he saw them, which is super dangerous, even though he's on a leash. So to work on it, we used the method I just stated. Obviously to start, he would ALWAYS spot the animal before me. So when he'd dart, I'd pull him back saying, "No Chasing," and make him walk beside me. If I saw his gaze was still on the animal, we would stop completely, and he'd have to stay put until his focus was on me instead. Whenever he got to the point where he quit his focus and calmed down, he got praised like crazy, and was allowed slack again, and we'd resume our walk. After a while of this, it became clear that Buddy understood the command, whether or not he decided to listen. This brought us in to phase two, easing him in to following the command every time, and knowing his reward for doing so. Now, it was to the point where I'd have a second to see his gaze shoot over to the animal before he'd dart, so I could give him his "No Chasing" command before he had a chance to do anything about it. Most of the time, he would look at me, I'd praise the living daylights out of him for being so good, and we'd continue on our way. If he kept focusing, then he had to walk beside me. If (on the odd occasion) he STILL wouldn't let up, then we'd revert back to stopping the walk entirely. Eventually, it was really obvious that Buddy knew the command, and really listened like 95% of the time (I'm still amazed how good he can be walking past animals that are pretty drat close, now.  ) He can even be just hanging out in our yard, not on a leash, and if I see him focusing on the squirrels in the trees and I want him to come in, he'll break his attention for me. He also has learned that he can look at things all he wants (he's earned that privilege) so long as he doesn't actually chase anything.I should mention, we had Buddy 3 years before getting our cat, and we worked on this command the entire time. This is the sort of foundation we had when we got our kitty, Kaipo. I knew Buddy would respond well to my voice and we also had a system set up in the house where Kaipo had a safe area that Buddy wasn't allowed to go, and more importantly, a cat tree where it was impossible for Buddy to reach her, should he decide to throw all his training out the window. So, we eventually got Kaipo. She's small, looks like a little wild animal with her long hair and coloring, and is really skittish. All the things Buddy just LOVES to chase.  However, Buddy had his "No Chasing" command, and we were able to do a very slow introduction between them where we tested Buddy's training in a way that was safe for Kaipo.When we first got her, Kaipo was living exclusively in "her" room, with the door shut at all times. We (the humans) would go in every so often to socialize with her, but she was not allowed out, and Buddy most definitely was not allowed in. We let them alone for probably at least a week like this before going any further, so they could get used to the fact that they're in the same house. When we finally decided to move forward, we put Kaipo in her carrier, and let them see eachother that way. Poor Kaipo was a nervous wreck, but Buddy did very well listening to "Leave it" when we asked, and was nice and calm. We needed to give Kaipo more time, but we knew Buddy was going to do well since he had such a good start before she came to the house. When we eventually started leaving her door open, we were super diligent about keeping track of where both animals were at all times. Of course, Buddy wanted to be all in her face and greet her, and when she'd dart away, naturally his chasing instinct would kick in. This is the sort of thing we wanted to avoid from the start, so I would run interference, and use body blocking to make sure Buddy stayed focused on me, not the cat, when I would tell him "Leave it, No Chasing". It didn't take very long of this before Buddy figured out that she wasn't some wild animal, and now he treats her more like another dog than a prey animal. He still likes to give her poo poo by chasing her away from his favorite spots, or by cornering her where he knows she'll have to run past him to get away (so he can bark in her face ) but you can tell by his mannerisms that he's doing so in a goading, playful manner, not in a way where he wants to chase her down and actually grab her. He'll bark at her as she runs past, but he NEVER follows by chasing. (BTW, if I ever see Buddy cornering Kaipo like that, usually trapping her in the kitchen, I'll tell him to "Leave it" and call him in to the living room, and he cuts it out, giving her time to get away. I'm not mean, I don't let him torture her. They're also still separated any time we're not around.)If the cat you're going to be living with really does know how to stand her ground, it'll make life a LOT easier when teaching your dog proper behavior, and you do have a lot of room for success. Dogs definitely can learn that other animals in the house are something different than the ones outside. You'll see this a lot with sighthounds, like retired racing greyhounds that live fine with cats in the house, but will still chase anything that moves outdoors. The important thing is, though, to really know your dog, know if your dog knows what you're expecting of him, and to not push through training faster than your dog's going to allow. Again, you're probably best off getting one-on-one help from a trainer, since you're going to be jumping right in to the shared living space without being able to do a lot of groundwork before hand. You also want to make sure to take precautions, like have been mentioned, by keeping the two animals separated at all times when not directly supervised, using a basket muzzle during training, and leashing your dog around the cat, so you have control if your dog decides to dart. It's definitely a dangerous situation that you want full control over during the entire process, and it's something that can (and probably will) take a long, long time to work on, but it IS possible. If your girlfriend is worth it (as it sounds like she is) then these are just the hoops you're going to have to go through in order to live together.  Edit: Ummm, holy crap, I didn't realize I was going to write so much.  Here, accept this video of Buddy & Kaipo meeting as a reward for all that text:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdUmOd0KFeI
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Jun 5, 2011 18:21
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We just picked up this lady at the local SPCA. Very nice looking German Shepard (I am pretty sure she is a mix, but it is hard to tell. She didn't really respond to the name the shelter gave her so we renamed her Baroness Von Krieger and she seems to respond to Krieger pretty readily. She is about 8 months old and remarkably well socialized, I think her previous owners did a pretty good job. She does great with strangers and at the dog park which makes me pretty comfortable that I don't have to go through any extra effort to increase her socialization. We are having a bit of trouble crate training her as she doesn't appear to be food motivated. Neither myself or my girlfriend have ever trained a non food motivated dog and don't really know where to begin. Although she doesn't display any anxiety about being in the crate, she has no desire to enter it voluntarily. So far we put away all her favorite toys in the crate so she has to go in and get them, and when we do get her in the crate is always accompanied by lavish praise and a couple of treats. Does anyone have any tips or tricks for training crate training a GSD? Our schedules will allow two solid walks per day, which should be enough to keep her tired during the day and non destructive. Also any tips on GSD training in general would be appreciated.
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Jun 5, 2011 19:23
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That post is super helpful for me, Wolfie. Shadow has a really high prey drive, and he's mostly learned to wait for my permission to chase things (by accident, actually), but if I don't catch him in time he'll dart after it (usually squirrels). What the real problem is is getting him to listen once he's gone after a squirrel or found a chipmunk burrow or whatever. Normally it's not a problem, I like to let him chase/dig after things because it's what he lives and breathes for and there's literally nothing else he likes to do to expend his energy. But I'd still like to have better voice control over him when he gets excited. Chachi, welcome to having a GSD mix that is not motivated by food. Now you feel my pain.  Actually Shadow loves deli turkey, and that works very well in training sessions at home with him (I just taught him to lay on his side moments ago with it, actually). But slimy deli turkey is not exactly convenient to carry on walks, and he may not even be interested in it on walks because he values chasing things way more highly than food. But I guess I'll have to take a ziplock baggie of turkey with me on a walk and see how he does. Sorry I didn't have any advice for you, but I'm still learning too. Krieger's gorgeous. 
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Jun 5, 2011 20:03
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Instant Jellyfish posted:The prozac has made a huge difference in Major's anxiety and I love the price but its making him not hungry which has made car training pretty impossible. He's a very active, 75 lb dog and he's barely eating a cup of food a day. He isn't interested in bacon, tripe, rabbit, lamb cartilage, or gross dead voles and won't eat food in stressful situations that he would before. So we're switching to sertaline (Zoloft) in the hopes that he'll eat better on that. It probably won't have as big of an effect on his dog reactivity but it might help more in the car. It also costs $43 for a 45 days of pills What made you decide to use dog prozac? I was curious about it to help my dog deal with his severe seperation anxiety, but my vet recommended against it in favor of working with him. Now, I'm completely aware that we need to work on training him to not be so anxious (we have Patricia McConnel's "I'll be Home Soon" booklet) and had been working on it. But recently my husband had a month break from classes and didn't really leave the house, and we've been using doggy day care when we need to leave a lot of the time, so he's really regressed. We're talking about heart-breaking whines and barks when we leave, then drooling so heavily that he is literally soaked and in a puddle when we return. Also, he's bent the metal bars on his crate and actually broke one off from where it was welded - we can't even bend it enough to return it in place by hand. For a 30lb dog that seems pretty excessive. Now, again, I know we need to work with him and seriously stick to the training regimen, but do you think that adding prozac might help calm him down so that he doesn't go so ape-poo poo when we DO need to leave him? Classes start up again next week for my husband, and I work a 8-5 job, and doggie day care prices add up. We just feel so awful when we get home to find him soaked with anxious drool and sitting next to an untouched kong filled with peanut butter and liver treats and other delicious items that he is just too freaked out to even touch while we're away. And he does love his crate, if I'm in the room where his crate is, he'll hop right in and lay down, eschewing his comfy doggy bed. We've tried short sessions of leaving him in the house and not in his crate, and he seems ok when we return, but we're concerned about him doing something destructive - when in his crate he will absolutely destroy anything he can reach - went through a couple dog beds we forgot to remove and once he bounced his crate over to our bed and pulled in and destroyed an entire comforter. He's never shown signs of destructive behaviour OTHER than in his crate when alone, but we don't want to find it out with an eaten couch or something. We're talking about 5-10 minutes of changing the laundry (about a third of the time he whines and barks/scratches the door, the rest of the time he seems okay) and once a 30 minute grocery run. I think maybe the difference here is just that he doesn't get the "leaving cues" of coats, shoes, gathering keys, put in crate that worry him normally, since I'm just stepping out for a moment and don't need to do all that. We tried DAP diffusers (no change) and even tried Rescue Remedy (although my brain tells me that homeopathic = BS) with no effect from either. We're not looking for a bandaid, but something that might help lessen the stress when he has to be left alone while we're going through the weeks of training. EDIT: Wow, sorry about the novel. EVG fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Jun 6, 2011 |
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Jun 6, 2011 04:14
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Oh well, I would have spent it on the dog anyway. After a month we'll reevaluate and may add a serotonin enhancer usually used to storm anxiety specifically for car rides.
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EVG posted:What made you decide to use dog prozac? I was curious about it to help my dog deal with his severe seperation anxiety, but my vet recommended against it in favor of working with him. Find yourself a veterinary behaviorist is my biggest suggestion. I don't know what I'd be doing without Major's doc. They know when something will be helped with meds and when it can probably be dealt with using behavior mod. They also know what meds to try and what side effects to look for. If you need help finding one I'm sure people could help if you let us know your area. I decided to go with meds (with my vet behaviorist's recommendation) because I had worked daily for months and we were just not getting the results we could be. We could drive 6 minutes and then the howling would start no matter what. He was also starting to regress in some areas not related to his original issue (severe travel anxiety). How was your dog before this break when he was being trained regularly? Breaking crates and that level of drooling does seem severe and meds may very well help depending on how much training helped originally. I think clomipramine is used more than prozac in SA cases in case you wanted to do some research yourself. I would definitely talk to a vet that specializes in behavior though. I miss Prozac Major. He was such a good dog. How often do dogs really need to eat any way? He's having a really rough time switching to Zoloft and its making him way more anxious than he was without it. The Dr. thinks that was what was behind him biting my grandma. She's confident that this will pass in a few more weeks to a month and then we can re-evaluate and we can always go back to Prozac later its just so hard taking steps back. I also managed to lose the remote to my Manners Minder so I haven't been able to do as much car work as I want. Someone needs to invent a magical Good DogTM pill with no side effects that is instantaneous and permanent.
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Jun 6, 2011 04:33
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To be honest, we got the dog, and the book, and started in on it... and then it kinda trailed off and we never finished the training. We did a couple training classes with Danny ("Middle Management" for obedience above sit/stay, and "CGC Prep" which he aced except for the "stay calm while owner leaves" and "quietly greet other dogs" part) and he did really well. We're not quite sure what made the behaviour suddenly change for the worse. Maybe it was the sudden change in schedule when my husband stopped going to class, or maybe it was starting to go to Day Care? We do know that on at least one occasion at Day Care Danny was put alone in the "Time Out" room, so maybe that traumatized him. (They have a "Chillax" room for when a dog might get over-stimulated and play a little too rough, or etc. In this case he had been jumping and barking at the entry gate (along with another dog who started and Danny joined in) so they put him in the room to relax. We happened to arrive when he wasn't in the main room so found out, and once we explained that he has seperation issues they promised to not put him back there again, and instead just distract him if he starts something weird). Do you think either of these might have caused the issue? It was a lightbulb moment when our class trainer told us that starting taking him to daycare and dog parks/beaches was what suddenly wrecked his leash manners when greeting other dogs. We hadn't made the connection that telling Danny that he can play all he wants with dogs in some situations might confuse him as to why he can't play when on the leash. More strict training (including the videos, I think from Kikopup) have helped us work on this. But maybe one of these things was the stimulus that caused his renewed, higher anxiety. Before the 'switch', he would bark for a minute or so when we left, then generally gobble his kong and wait sadly for us to return, but without the crazy drool problem and food ignoring.
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Jun 6, 2011 04:48
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Its possible. Dog Day Care can be great for some dogs but really overwhelming for others and can exacerbate some problems. When I was working at one there were several dogs brought in to help with their SA and almost all of them spent the entire time freaking about where their owners were. I don't know if that's the case with Danny but it might be something to ask the Day Care workers about. He also might just have practiced the anxious behavior so much that it has gotten worse. That was what happened with Major. It started out with just being uncomfortable in the car but it just built and built because I didn't know how to deal with it at the time. I would definitely start doing the training religiously (I know how much of a pain in the rear end it can be) and look into a good behaviorist. It will probably take a while to get an appointment (or save up for an appointment) so you will have a head start. If you and a vet decide that medication is necessary it takes several weeks to kick in so might as well do as much work as you can right away.
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Jun 6, 2011 05:04
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Gotcha. We'll get a behaviorist to come out as soon as possible, and will start up on the training protocol again. Do you think it might be a good idea to move the crate to a different room? Since he is fine in the crate when it is open and we are in the room, I don't know if maybe a change of location might assist in 'resetting' for him. My husband was also able to change one of his summer classes to be online instead of on campus, which will at least give him a little more home time (even if he's too busy to train during those school hours, it's at least less time Danny needs to be left alone).
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Jun 6, 2011 05:29
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Kiri koli posted:Okay, PIers, I have what is probably a really stupid question. I'm going to ask my trainer too, but that will have to wait until next week and I'm pretty freaked out right now. I think your plan of action would have to be based on actually knowing your dog. I'd be inclined to suggest you go out and buy the Tastiest Stuff Imaginable and pull it out specifically in these situations. Let Psyche fill her maw with strip after strip of garlic beef, or smoked turkey breast or whatever really turns her crank. Stay stationary and do your best to distract her from greetings, etc. Unfortunately anything beyond the very basic stuff will have to be answered by your trainer. Sorry you're feeling badly. I try to never exit the house without my bait pouch since you never know what kind of crazy stuff you'll run into. paisleyfox posted:Okay, question for you fine folks. I might start looking at treats that take time to eat, like peanut butter smeared on a wooden spoon or in a kong. Then go through your basic desensitization process. The requirement to focus on eating the sticky food, plus the soothing nature of licking might help decrease the stress a bit. Have you considered moving his crate to the kitchen? If he has a safe haven where you can work from it might also help keep his stress levels a bit lower. It sounds like you're doing everything right. Unfortunately weird phobias like this seem to take a while to break. I would break everything down really systematically. Instead of approaching it like, "Koji gets upset when I cook", try reducing everything further. Like, for instance, does he get nervous when you reach for the cutlery drawer? Or the bread? My guess is that the whole cooking prep is way too much for him to handle, which is making the CCing more difficult. If you can identify the component parts that bother him you'll have a better idea of how to approach them. Chachikoala posted:
A lot of dogs won't take food while stressed. Highly stressed dogs physically can't eat. Since she's so new I might think that at least some of her disinterest in treats is linked to the stress of having moved so recently. If she's genuinely not food motivated, you'll have to try and figure out what DOES motivate her. Check out this post by someone who was having a similar issue and read the responses. They might be helpful. Basically, all animals are food motivated to a degree, as they need to eat to live. Sometimes it's a matter of finding something genuinely special for them. We have a Doberman in one of our classes who will only eat celery as a treat, and would prefer a pat and praise when training. This isn't the norm -- most dogs prefer tasty treats and play. But you have to really feel out what works for your dog and cater your approach to it. The FAQ in the puppy thread is a good starting off point for crate training. You can also google crate games to find a few different approaches to get a dog in the crate. Basically, you don't want to rush the process, or confine them for a second longer than what they're comfortable with. Baby steps will be your friend in the long term. Here's a link to a blog post from the creator of crate games to get you started. GSD training isn't much different than most training. NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) will be very useful for you. The only thing I might consider "different" for GSDs is that they have been bred more recently as protection dogs, and are therefore energetic and not all that afraid of biting a human if push comes to shove. So if you see an behavioural problems starting out, contact a good positive reinforcement trainer ASAP before a little problem becomes a big one.
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Jun 6, 2011 21:36
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http://www.amazon.com/Petmate-4-Inch-16-24-Inch-Medium-Padded/dp/B001U3RJFA/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1307628835&sr=1-1 Just wanted to ask if this would work as well as a gentle leader? I really like that it had a padded nose band, and the price isn't bad. I think I want to try out a head collar to see if it'll work well for training Bailey and keeping control of him when he starts to get anxious. He's pretty good about letting me touch his mouth and head, so I think the desensitization won't be too bad.
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Jun 9, 2011 15:24
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It depends on how badly your dog might pull. I imagine that cheaper models run the risk of breaking more easily. I could probably use it on my dog since she's not a big puller. If you did use it I'd use a connector to the collar too, to be safe.
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Jun 9, 2011 16:35
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a life less posted:It depends on how badly your dog might pull. I imagine that cheaper models run the risk of breaking more easily. I could probably use it on my dog since she's not a big puller. If you did use it I'd use a connector to the collar too, to be safe. Looking at the related products, I found a Holt head collar that has some padding and a connector to the dog's normal collar as well. I think I'll be going with that. Thanks for the advice.
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Jun 9, 2011 17:18
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a life less posted:GSD training isn't much different than most training. NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) will be very useful for you. The only thing I might consider "different" for GSDs is that they have been bred more recently as protection dogs, and are therefore energetic and not all that afraid of biting a human if push comes to shove. So if you see an behavioural problems starting out, contact a good positive reinforcement trainer ASAP before a little problem becomes a big one. Thanks for the feedback. She has taken to her crate pretty well and we no longer have trouble getting her in. I imagine she'll go in on command in the next week or two. We noticed that she plays pretty rough with a lot of mouthing and soft biting. The vet said that she thinks the previous owners must have played pretty rough with her. Training this out of her is priority 1 over the next couple of weeks. Does anyone have any tips or tricks to prevent mouthing / biting while playing or when she gets overly excited?
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Jun 9, 2011 23:18
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Chachikoala posted:Thanks for the feedback. She has taken to her crate pretty well and we no longer have trouble getting her in. I imagine she'll go in on command in the next week or two. My suggestion would be to reward and keep playing while she plays nice, but once she starts to get too excited with mouthing and biting while playing, that's when playtime stops. With my fosters I start using my "ack ack!" sound or sometimes "gentle". If that distracts them enough to stop, I praise and we keep playing. If they still want to bite and wrestle with me, play time stops and I walk away and do something else. They usually learn pretty quickly that doing that stops the funtimes.
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Jun 9, 2011 23:26
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Chachikoala posted:We noticed that she plays pretty rough with a lot of mouthing and soft biting. The vet said that she thinks the previous owners must have played pretty rough with her. Training this out of her is priority 1 over the next couple of weeks. Does anyone have any tips or tricks to prevent mouthing / biting while playing or when she gets overly excited? You could try yelping and stopping immediately if she mouths. Move away, totally disengage from her until she's calmed down plus another 3-5 seconds. If she is really revved up, and tries mouthing at your clothes or leaping at you or anything, just walk slowly out of the room. As soon as she's calm, turn back, cue her to do something (to sit, to play dead, to fetch a toy - whatever) before you carry on. Rinse and repeat, and she should pretty quickly get the idea that mouthing is painful and makes the fun stop.
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Jun 9, 2011 23:31
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How do I keep my dog from running across the road and stay in our yard instead? When I am out with my dog and watching him, it's not a problem but when I am not right there with him, he slips across the road to the newly dug/planted farm fields in a second. I assume they are just chock full of tempting new fresh smells and cowpoops.
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Jun 9, 2011 23:57
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errol _flynn posted:How do I keep my dog from running across the road and stay in our yard instead? When I am out with my dog and watching him, it's not a problem but when I am not right there with him, he slips across the road to the newly dug/planted farm fields in a second. I assume they are just chock full of tempting new fresh smells and cowpoops. I'd say this is a situation where tethering your dog (or fencing your yard) would work better for everyone involved. You really don't want to take your eyes off of him, and him shoot across the road at the same time as a car passes by. It is quite likely VERY self-reinforcing for him to run to the smelly farm field, rather than stay around when you aren't watching him.
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Jun 10, 2011 00:00
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errol _flynn posted:How do I keep my dog from running across the road and stay in our yard instead? When I am out with my dog and watching him, it's not a problem but when I am not right there with him, he slips across the road to the newly dug/planted farm fields in a second. I assume they are just chock full of tempting new fresh smells and cowpoops. Yeah you probably shouldn't be letting your dog outside in an unfenced area unsupervised. Some dogs are fine unleashed (and still supervised) but the great majority are going to get into trouble and you won't be there to save them. It's a recipe for disaster.
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Jun 10, 2011 00:54
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Poor Shadow wanted the hotdog I had for him so badly that he thought every command was "lay down."  It's one of his most recently learned commands so he's kinda stuck on it, I guess. Or maybe I'm just not being clear enough for him, or the hotdog is too high value so he gets too excited, I dunno.  The other night I taught him to lay on his side, by accident actually. But hey whatever, a new command in his short repertoire. He seems to enjoy learning new things and getting his brain going. He may be an old man but god drat he learns quickly. 
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Jun 10, 2011 01:29
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Skizzles posted:Poor Shadow wanted the hotdog I had for him so badly that he thought every command was "lay down." This is my dog. Every command is a "down" to her first then I tell her to try again and she'll usually perform the correct command. I think it's from focusing on her "down" a lot recently while we're outside, so I've been switching it up on her a lot with other commands and making sure each hand signal is distinguished enough for her.
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Jun 10, 2011 05:59
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Skizzles posted:Poor Shadow wanted the hotdog I had for him so badly that he thought every command was "lay down." Darla did this a lot at first, but as I taught her more tricks she's gotten a lot better at matching the correct trick to whatever cue. It helps a lot to avoid giving cues in a predictable pattern, and to keep the tricks varied.
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Jun 10, 2011 07:03
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Haha, yeah if I make him try another time or two he'll get it right, and I do try to change things up a bit, but he gets stuck in patterns so badly. I'd really like to improve his "stay" and get him to do commands from a distance. The overall improvement on the bond/trust between he and I is amazing, though. Ever since I started adding to his training he listens to me so much better. He's even less scared to go out in storms with me. I know a life less has said such things before but now I know from experience.
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Jun 10, 2011 07:15
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How do I train my dog to... bring me any toy on cue? So far the only way I can think is to shape a general retrieve of any toy from her toy basket. With five minutes and a handful of kibble, I managed to shape her to bringing me a toy of her choice in the session from the basket. I'm not sure if this will make it too 'obedience'-y though. My plan next is to get her to bring any toy from the basket, then add the cue, increase the distance, change my position, and then generalise to cold trials. I'll be using kibble until after the cue is added, and then reward with tug on successful retrieval, with kibble being an intermittent reward (hopefully increasing her good tug drive in the process). I'm just not sure if I'm over thinking it though. There is probably a much easier, less formal way to teach it - but I can't think of an alternative.
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Jun 10, 2011 14:19
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I've been trying for ages to get Bailey to be interested in toys, if even all I get him to do is pick up a toy for a treat. Very rarely, if I'm on the phone, he'll pick up a toy and play with it. I'm tempted to smear PB on all his toys. I've tried shaping the behavior in a pretty ham fisted way: I'll get him excited and he'll chase a ball around, but the second I have a treat (and I guess in a way this is a blessing) he's focused on me and doing whatever he can to get the treat. I've tried just clicking on eye contact with the toy, but he's just too interested in the food. Also, how do I set up a cue for calm? If he's nervous about a car, he'll sit and look at me for a treat because that's how I initially counter conditioned him (also that's my response to "distraction incoming" because its a quick trick that he does well). I think if I can cue that behavior, I can start to apply it to strange dogs, kids, and squirrels.
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Jun 10, 2011 14:32
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Fraction posted:How do I train my dog to... bring me any toy on cue? Does "too obedience-y" mean not fun enough? Why does obedience have to be Not Fun? I'd do it the way you suggested - work on the return to hand portion first, then work on the distance and variety. Just remember to make every step a barrel of fun for Lola. Make it a game, use loads of energy, switch it up, play fun games between retrieves, etc. wtftastic posted:I've been trying for ages to get Bailey to be interested in toys, if even all I get him to do is pick up a toy for a treat. Very rarely, if I'm on the phone, he'll pick up a toy and play with it. I'm tempted to smear PB on all his toys. I like these two blog entries on how to increase your dog's interest in toys: http://www.fannygott.com/increasing-play-drive-in-your-dog http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm At one point I shaped a tug behaviour using food rewards, but it didn't really get me the crazy play I was after, and as soon as the food came out all interest in the toy disappeared. I started creating special toys, played at key moments (like when I just get home and my dog is excited to see me), and tried loads of different toys and play styles to find the right one. (For Cohen, the key seemed to be to get down on her level, and pretend to lose grip of the toy, so she'd get amped up and pull harder to get it away from me.) Now I try to offer life rewards for good tugging, like a game of chase if she tugs hard enough to get it away from me. As for relaxation, this is a popular link when it comes to teaching relaxation in general: http://dogscouts.org/Protocol_for_relaxation.html I haven't personally used this method however. The way I do it is ask for focus when we're around distractions, and I've classically conditioned a calming cue for when my dog is a bit too amped up in general. I don't think a CC'd cue would really be what you want in your case however. I think you just need to expand the work that you've done for cars and gradually expand it to apply to more distracting situations. Try to write out what serves as a distraction to your dog, and rank each on a scale from 1-10. This will help you figure out a hierarchy for your distraction work. Work at a level which is challenging for your dog, but where he'll be successful 80% of the time or greater. Once you hit that point you can try addressing distractions one step harder. My guess is you're going from about a 5 (cars) to a 10 (dogs, squirrels), and missing out on a few steps in between.
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Jun 10, 2011 15:21
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Could anyone toss a couple links my way for some fun focus and impulse control games? I've been losing Eris' focus on walks lately when she sees something interesting so I want to start working on it again. And impulse control is something I've wanted to work on with both dogs for a while but haven't gotten around it.
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Jun 10, 2011 15:48
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Skizzles posted:Poor Shadow wanted the hotdog I had for him so badly that he thought every command was "lay down." Hahaha, Koji's thing is wave now, since that's one of his newest. He wants a thing, he'll wave at us. He wants to go outside, he'll wave at us. He wants our attention, he'll wave at us. He wants Rosie's attention, he'll wave at her. Trying to teach him a new trick, he'll wave at me. It'd be a little annoying if it wasn't so goddamn funny!
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Jun 10, 2011 20:20
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I can't get my dog to do a "sit pretty" or "beg." I tried it with the trainer--she stood behind him with the treat--and he just peels out, goes around, and...doesn't get the treat. It almost seems like he just can't do it. All dogs are physically capable of this, right? He will stand up on hind legs for a treat, and he's totally delighted to jump for it. Just thought of another question. He did puppy training with one trainer, and we did a session with another trainer that my vet likes. My vet is very old-school, doesn't believe in lots of treats (the dog should do it because he wants to please you, etc.), familiar with but not sold on clicker training, and her pick for trainer says sometimes you have to do a correction. The puppy trainer says never do a correction, never say "bad dog," treat good behavior such as not barking. This is just to show you where they're both coming from. My technique, such as it is, is to treat for things the first few times, then after that treat randomly, except for really important things like recall. Recall always gets a treat. I have heard (from a previous training session, previous dog) that random treats work better. What I was doing was having the dog do several things, like sit, down, sit, down, touch, then treating and treating. Then play. Puppy trainer says always treat for everything for the whole first year. Three touches = three treats. Old-school trainer says phase out the treats entirely as soon as the behavior is established. So what works for PI members with well-trained dogs? My puppy is super motivated by food, and sometimes by play. He's 7 months old, border collie mix, pretty smart, but can be stubborn. If I'm teaching a fun thing like "touch" the random treat thing seems to work well, but once we get into distractions he's not interested in treats or anything, really, except the distraction. And right now I pretty much always have treats on me, but I foresee a day when that may not be the case and I'll still want him to mind me.
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Jun 10, 2011 21:48
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I would phase out the treats for your standard everyday behaviors, but still reward randomly (like you said, basically). Rewarding randomly just adds that extra reinforcement that guarantees your dog will want to keep working for you. Sure, he may want to keep working because he loves you and loves training...but giving him a jackpot every so often won't hurt anything and will help solidify his desire to do what you say. On the other hand, going a whole year without phasing out treats sounds like a good way to get your dog to require bribing in order to do even your most basic tricks. I would phase them out sooner.
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Jun 10, 2011 21:54
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paisleyfox posted:Hahaha, Koji's thing is wave now, since that's one of his newest. He wants a thing, he'll wave at us. He wants to go outside, he'll wave at us. He wants our attention, he'll wave at us. He wants Rosie's attention, he'll wave at her. Trying to teach him a new trick, he'll wave at me. It'd be a little annoying if it wasn't so goddamn funny! I love Koji holy crap.
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Jun 11, 2011 02:17
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Rhymes With Clue posted:I can't get my dog to do a "sit pretty" or "beg." I tried it with the trainer--she stood behind him with the treat--and he just peels out, goes around, and...doesn't get the treat. Begging takes quite a bit of core strength. When you first get started it'll probably be tough for your pup to hold the position for more than a second or two. My magic beg-training trick is peanut butter. I slap some peanut butter on a wooden spoon, hold it above the dog's head, and for them to actually get more than a small lick of it as a reward they have to hold the position. I kept running into Cohen popping up, getting out of position, and just not "getting it" when I tried our standard food treats. Give the peanut butter a try -- when I did it was like a light bulb turned on for my dog. The rest of it is fairly simple: hold the treat just out of the dog's reach almost directly over his head. Rhymes With Clue posted:Just thought of another question. He did puppy training with one trainer, and we did a session with another trainer that my vet likes. My vet is very old-school, doesn't believe in lots of treats (the dog should do it because he wants to please you, etc.), familiar with but not sold on clicker training, and her pick for trainer says sometimes you have to do a correction. The puppy trainer says never do a correction, never say "bad dog," treat good behavior such as not barking. This is just to show you where they're both coming from. Vets =/= trainers. Vets are around dogs a lot, but their focus is medical, not behavioural. They may know what works, but there are constantly new and revised ideas being floated around the training community -- I think most Vets simply don't have the time to stay up to with everything dog-related. I will side with your puppy trainer. I use a lot of treats in my training. Some might call it overkill, but I'm quite satisfied with it. I actually just got home from a seminar where the behaviourist teaching it said for the first two years of your pup's life you should have kibble on you at all times. It's not to treat each and every sit, but to catch behaviours you like and reinforce them, and to distract and diffuse behaviours you don't want. You're right about a variable rate of reinforcement creating more excitement as well as increasing the retention of a learned behaviour. What you decide to reward with treats, vs what you decide to reward with life rewards (like access to the couch, or outdoors), vs what you will reward with praise is entirely up to you. Dogs are living beings, and always work for SOMETHING. It just depends on whether that something is to gain something they desire, or to avoid something they dislike. Food is the fastest, easiest, most convenient way to tap into something they desire. So there's no hard and fast rule about how often you need to be treating for certain behaviours. Basically, you want to strive to always be more reinforcing than the dog's current environment. Think of strategic use of reinforcement as making a deposit into your Dog Training Bank Account. Each time you ask the dog to do something you withdraw a bit of cash from it. If you're constantly making deposits then you'll never notice the cash level decreasing. But if you stop making deposits then eventually you'll go bankrupt. The value of reinforcement vs value for behaviour will vary from dog to dog. Again, my personal preference is to go heavy on the "deposits" especially when the dog is young. For behaviours like recall, since I feel it's the single most important thing my dog will do, I will always offer SOME sort of reinforcement (food? maybe! maybe a game of tug instead...) Corrections are very very very rarely necessary. If you find yourself correcting your dog often I would suggest you step back and reassess your value to your dog vs the environment, or whether the dog actually knows what it is you're asking of it. For your example of "never say 'bad dog'"... no, you don't really need to. Cohen understands "whoops", and she understands "try again" (both of which I break out for minor infractions and mistakes) and she understands "no" for bigger ones. But I very rarely use these, especially when actively training. It's infinitely easier to teach the dog what they're meant to do, instead of what they're not meant to do. Verbal aversives are largely unnecessary, and can be easily overused to both the trainer's and dog's detriment. For your Touch example, to begin I will treat with every touch. Then once the dog knows present hand = touch I will hold off on the reward and see if I can get two touches. If so, jackpot. Gradually I raise how many touches I'm asking for before I reward. Right now I can easily ask Cohen to touch (good hard solid touches) for 10 seconds without additional cues or rewards, and her nubbin is wagging the whole time. It's a great game for her. I strategically lowered my rate of reinforcement to get a longer, stronger behaviour. There's a big difference between a reward and a bribe. A reward is hidden and presented for good behaviour. A bribe is thrown around to illicit good behaviour. There's a key difference between the two that a lot of people forget. Not understanding the distinction between the two results in a dog who will only work if they know a food "reward" is imminent. So, to repeat, a dog is always going to be working for something. It's between you and your dog what you want that something to be. a life less fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Jun 11, 2011 |
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Jun 11, 2011 04:34
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Hey, he did the begging thing! First for peanut butter, then for kitty kibble (I don't think the cat food is really any better than the puppy food, but he lusts after it, so it's valuable). You're right, he's very wobbly and can't hold it for long. But at least now he knows where I want him to go.
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Jun 11, 2011 21:36
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a life less posted:Corrections are very very very rarely necessary. If you find yourself correcting your dog often I would suggest you step back and reassess your value to your dog vs the environment, or whether the dog actually knows what it is you're asking of it. There are so many downsides to correction/punishment that I'm pretty reluctant to use it for any problem any more. When your dog does X thing, and you apply punishment, even if your timing is perfect and the punishment is exactly appropriate, (very difficult on both counts), he might infer: - that he is being punished for doing X thing (the ideal), OR - for being CAUGHT doing X thing (e.g. look at the puppy thread's section on housetraining), OR - for being in the wrong place, OR - because you are suddenly crazy, since the other 5 times he did it, you didn't punish him, OR - because human males/females are dangerous and crazy, OR - because ALL humans are dangerous and crazy, OR ... Because dogs have been bred for thousands of years essentially to love humans and interact with us, they'll forgive a lot, but that doesn't mean they think like people or really understand exactly what you're trying to teach them. While of course you can get the same kinds of communication problems with reward-based training, at least you haven't inflicted unhappiness on your dog, and it seems to me the converse scenarios are so much less pitiable and less difficult to fix (e.g. the examples of Skizzles' and Paisleyfox's dogs being "stuck" on a certain trick). edit: Another downside to correction/punishment is that, while it may seem like a good way to get an animal to stop doing X thing, you leave the animal with no desirable activity instead. He wants to do something, which currently happens to be X thing, and if you just make him stop doing X, he's going to select another activity. While the new activity might be a good and appropriate thing (e.g. he lays down and is quiet while you are mashing F5 on your favorite thread) it might just as easily be something undesirable and inappropriate (deciding to jump on your lap and lay on your hotkey that brings up your tranny porn at full volume while your kids are looking over your shoulder). You're the one with the big brain, make the judgment for him and give him a good, appropriate activity by saying "Fido, lay down!" rather than "Fido, no!" Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jun 11, 2011 |
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Jun 11, 2011 22:23
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I did not have a chance to really read through this thread, but I did skim the last couple of pages and didn't find anything... Dexter is a JRT and is pretty vocal. He will occasionally back talk or bark when I am setting up his food. This is manageable for me and we have been working on it (I ignore him until he is quiet/he has to sit/stay and be quiet before getting his food) When we are at work (dog kennel) he is quiet while playing with his buddies. However, when we go visit back home, the two family dogs do not have the same exact style of play. This results in Dexter bouncing around them barking over and over again. I was hoping Abby would get annoyed and correct him herself, but no luck there. I started going between him and Abby when he gets loud and try to redirect him, but he just barks around Monty instead. I am about to just pick him up and put him in the bathroom every time he barks until he learns that bark= no more play. Is this the best thing I could do? Or should I do something else? Its frustrating because most of the time he is quiet.
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Jun 12, 2011 23:56
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