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Wedesdo posted:Agreed. Law school loving sucks, and working in big law loving sucks even more. What the gently caress, being a summer is supposed to be awesome.
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Jun 11, 2011 16:46
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Wedesdo posted:Agreed. Law school loving sucks, and working in big law loving sucks even more. Yeah, I left an engineering job a while back and sometimes I feel the same way. I do patent prosecution work and I'm now at a smaller firm with a good and flexible work environment, but sometimes working as a real engineer felt like more of an accomplishment and more team oriented, without lots of assholes everywhere.
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Jun 11, 2011 18:14
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Zo posted:Patent prosecution is pretty fun and you feel like you're helping people without loving over others, but then again you don't need a law degree to do it so your point stands. Maybe patent prosecution is fun for the first year or so, but most people burn out pretty quickly. It stops being fun at about the two year point, or at least that's the common point for being burned out. But, hey, most jobs aren't fun anyways.
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Jun 11, 2011 18:20
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evilweasel posted:What the gently caress, being a summer is supposed to be awesome. I for one am having a good time and don't dread going in. None of the associates at my place seem to hate their lives or work ridiculous hours either. Part of that is probably putting on a good face for the newbs but I also think a lot has to do with being on the west coast and in a secondary market where culturally things are different from the east coast way. Or so I undertsand.
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Jun 11, 2011 18:48
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sigmachiev posted:I for one am having a good time and don't dread going in. None of the associates at my place seem to hate their lives or work ridiculous hours either. Part of that is probably putting on a good face for the newbs but I also think a lot has to do with being on the west coast and in a secondary market where culturally things are different from the east coast way. Or so I undertsand. Seconded to a certain extent--it definitely depends on the firm and the market. But there are also a lot of people who will just absolutely hate firm work, regardless of what their hours are or where they are and there's another pretty big subset of people who will just hate legal work itself. I guess I always just kind of figured that I wasn't going to be in love with the work I was doing, so getting bent out of shape about it not being the most fun job ever seemed kinda silly. Work's work and I do fun stuff in my off-time.
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Jun 11, 2011 23:12
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Studying for the bar sucks, that is all.
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Jun 12, 2011 00:54
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Roger_Mudd posted:Studying for the bar sucks, that is all. I'm just filling in the blanks watching the videos and then reviewing the notes a time or two. I think it's time for a flash card binge soon.
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Jun 12, 2011 01:26
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Roger_Mudd posted:Studying for the bar sucks, that is all. You think that sucks? Try the wait between finishing the bar and getting the results.
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Jun 12, 2011 01:35
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nm posted:You think that sucks? Try actually practicing law.
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Jun 12, 2011 01:49
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Stunt Rock posted:Try actually practicing law. Try unemployment with no career prospects in the legal field.
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Jun 12, 2011 02:19
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Stunt Rock posted:Try actually practicing law. The wait between July and late November was worse.
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Jun 12, 2011 02:31
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entris posted:Try unemployment with no career prospects in the legal field. 
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Jun 12, 2011 04:11
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Chiming in, wondering if by the slightest chance anyone from New Zealand reads this thread at all ? Anywho just in case some of you might be interested- I am working under a pretty high profile advocate who specializes in challenging what we have in New Zealand called the Accident Compensation Corporation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporation Basically New Zealand has a socialized accident compensation scheme- Every person no matter working or not is supposed to get entitlements for treatment and recovery etc. and if you are working and can't work you are supposed to get 80% of your income until back to work etc. among other things. In the whole scheme of health care it seems to work very well- it was rated by PriceWaterhouseCooper as the best system internationally of its kind in 08. NZ'ers pay PP very low healthcare costs- much lower than the USA/lower than the UK/AUS for comparably good outcomes. The rub of all this however is every person is unable to bring any proceedings for damages directly/indirectly aspiring from personal damages; you lose your right to sue. There is basically no tort available for personal injury. Im guessing this idea sounds a little far out for Americans who are apparently very sue happy- Are the problems with torts for personal injury anywhere as bad as its made out to be or is it just sensationalistic media and some odd cases in what is a vast country? Lemonus fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Jun 12, 2011 |
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Jun 12, 2011 09:31
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Our PI law problems are greatly exaggerated, although they do exist. There are actually bigger issues from the other side - if a legitimate case takes three years to settle for $25K and the lawyer gets a third, it's not that great a deal. So is that a flat out complete ban on PI as a tort, even for recklessness or malice instead of negligence? If I knowingly use poo poo concrete to cut costs and an earthquake makes a piece fall off and crush your skull, I'm not liable? This seems...odd.
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Jun 12, 2011 10:10
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Adar posted:
Yes, that would seem to incentivize reckless behavior. There have to be exceptions for intentional or reckless conduct, right?
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Jun 12, 2011 12:54
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Lemonus posted:Im guessing this idea sounds a little far out for Americans who are apparently very sue happy- Are the problems with torts for personal injury anywhere as bad as its made out to be or is it just sensationalistic media and some odd cases in what is a vast country? The disparaging term "sue happy" usually comes from people (with money) who are afraid that poor folks are looking to steal their wealth by being a career plaintiff. This is usually coupled with an adamantly defended example (e.g. McDonald's coffee case) which actually is a misconstruction of how the case's facts/law actually played out in order to better support the narrative of roving bands of eternal-plaintiffs seeking to suck the economy dry through lawsuit. While there are people who are frequent plaintiffs, my limited exposure to the system shows that they are the exceptionally vast minority. And even then, they aren't exactly successful in their pursuits. Actually, my summer internship has exposed me to a kind of plaintiff who sometimes become career plaintiffs: whistleblowers for corporate misconduct. These are usually well-educated plaintiffs who find themselves in similar positions throughout their careers. This allows them to be whistleblowers in multiple cases and make a pretty penny off of it. And, frankly, you can't really fault them. Making money while stopping corruption/wrongdoing? What could be more American than that?
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Jun 12, 2011 14:33
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Adar posted:So is that a flat out complete ban on PI as a tort, even for recklessness or malice instead of negligence? If I knowingly use poo poo concrete to cut costs and an earthquake makes a piece fall off and crush your skull, I'm not liable? This seems...odd. Solomon Grundy posted:Yes, that would seem to incentivize reckless behavior. There have to be exceptions for intentional or reckless conduct, right? There is one exception for exemplary damages if the defendant runs a consciously appreciated risk that causes injury. The test for this conduct is stated variously as "Outrageousness", "high handed", "deserving of punishment" ( Decided in a landmark case in 2010 actually- http://bitly.com/k1tmK8. Not that I expect anyone to be particularly interested but you might find it interesting just to have a quick look at the New Zealand typeface/formatting of court decisions. I have always admired Century Schoolbook from the USA.) As exemplary damages though it is in theory not supposed to be damages for relief or loss but just as a punitive measure to deter such conduct. Its not supposed to be done on any particular quantum related to the losses incurred by the defendant but just as a punitive measure. There are also possibilities for public law damages for breaches of rights for example if it was say a government entity. Green Crayons posted:The disparaging term "sue happy" usually comes from people (with money) who are afraid that poor folks are looking to steal their wealth by being a career plaintiff. This is usually coupled with an adamantly defended example (e.g. McDonald's coffee case) which actually is a misconstruction of how the case's facts/law actually played out in order to better support the narrative of roving bands of eternal-plaintiffs seeking to suck the economy dry through lawsuit. I figured as much heh. Those sound like cool people i.e. the whistleblowers for corporate misconduct.
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Jun 12, 2011 15:11
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Lemonus posted:( Decided in a landmark case in 2010 actually- http://bitly.com/k1tmK8. Not that I expect anyone to be particularly interested but you might find it interesting just to have a quick look at the New Zealand typeface/formatting of court decisions. I have always admired Century Schoolbook from the USA.) Wow, that's something else. It looks like the stuff I get from older attorneys in my office who just cut and paste things in from different sources and don't bother to reconcile the formatting between those excerpts.
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Jun 12, 2011 15:19
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MaximumBob posted:Wow, that's something else. It looks like the stuff I get from older attorneys in my office who just cut and paste things in from different sources and don't bother to reconcile the formatting between those excerpts. As far as I can see the whole thing is in the same formatting? Also; your older attorneys give you court decisions cut and pasted togethor? Of course you can still think it is terrible regardless lol. BTW; does anyone have a font file for century schoolbook? for Mac?
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Jun 12, 2011 15:33
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Lemonus posted:As far as I can see the whole thing is in the same formatting? Also; your older attorneys give you court decisions cut and pasted togethor? Of course you can still think it is terrible regardless lol. Maybe it's some weird font issue with my mac, but I see a bunch of bold sans-serif on the first page, along with a bunch of some serif font. And they apparently the way you guys cite cases is by using a different font for the citation than you use for body text. And I'll get drafts from older attorneys I'm working with where they'll paste in quotations or citations straight from Westlaw or Lexis or from opposing counsel's brief. So those end up formatted differently than the attorney's own statements in the draft.
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Jun 12, 2011 15:43
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MaximumBob posted:Maybe it's some weird font issue with my mac, but I see a bunch of bold sans-serif on the first page, along with a bunch of some serif font. And they apparently the way you guys cite cases is by using a different font for the citation than you use for body text. I'm going to try to set this up tomorrow morning at the office. I wonder if I could bribe the IT people to install this macro on everyone else's computers, too. There's no reason why Microsoft shouldn't offer a "Paste unformatted text by default" option in Office's settings.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:25
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IP law is cool as poo poo besides patent prosecution.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:39
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10-8 posted:http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/paste-text-without-the-formatting-into-a-word-document-HA001042961.aspx?redir=0 cut -> paste into notepad -> cut -> paste into word 
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Jun 12, 2011 18:52
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Roger_Mudd posted:cut -> paste into notepad -> cut -> paste into word That's what I do too, but the whole thing is retarded. 99% of the time when I copy paste I want the text, not the format. Why should I have to open up two word processing programs just to properly copy and paste text?
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Jun 12, 2011 19:13
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So does anyone have any knowledge or experience about returning to law school after being academically dismissed. I'm raising an appeal but my particular school is unfriendly to academic appeals even when there are extraordinary circumstances. I have some professors willing to support me, but I am also preparing for the long road ahead. I'm dead set on law school, I have no interest is mega law firms, once I get through law school I have friends that will help me get into the local prosecutors office back home, and I can live with the loans. So I'm looking for some good advice, real advice, so thanks in advance for the advice and I am sure some mockery too.
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Jun 12, 2011 20:35
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So does anyone have any knowledge or experience about returning to law school after being academically dismissed. I'm raising an appeal but my particular school is unfriendly to academic appeals even when there are extraordinary circumstances. I have some professors willing to support me, but I am also preparing for the long road ahead. Wait, are you applying with a dismissal from another institution (like undergrad) or did you get booted from law school? If it's something like plagiarism, I can't see another institution making the gamble.
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Jun 12, 2011 20:47
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 Your future.jpg
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Jun 12, 2011 20:56
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Roger_Mudd posted:cut -> paste into notepad -> cut -> paste into word GamingHyena posted:That's what I do too, but the whole thing is retarded. 99% of the time when I copy paste I want the text, not the format. Why should I have to open up two word processing programs just to properly copy and paste text? You guys don't need Notepad. You can do it directly in Word: Edit -> Paste Special... -> Unformatted Text The only function of the macro I linked to a few posts up is to automate the process so that text gets pasted unformatted when you use the CTRL+V shortcut.
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Jun 12, 2011 21:16
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So does anyone have any knowledge or experience about returning to law school after being academically dismissed.
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Jun 12, 2011 21:18
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So does anyone have any knowledge or experience about returning to law school after being academically dismissed. I'm raising an appeal but my particular school is unfriendly to academic appeals even when there are extraordinary circumstances. I have some professors willing to support me, but I am also preparing for the long road ahead. Why do you want to be a lawyer? Who are these friends and how much sway do they have at the prosecutor's office? What do you mean "live with the loans"? Public or private?
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Jun 12, 2011 21:55
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evilweasel posted:Academically dismissed for failing, or for cheating? According to his other thread it was for failing grades. I'm not sure how anyone fails out of law school, unless you're at a T4 that needs to kick people out to make the school look better it's next to impossible to get below a C in a class even if you're specifically trying to do so. Sorry but your school did you a favor, you don't belong in law school and you shouldn't be a lawyer. I'm not saying this in a "oh you're not good enough to be one of us" kind of way. Hopefully you can overcome your stubbornness and move on with your life. Unfortunately you probably won't consider this or what anyone else here tells you good advice or real advice since it won't match what you want to hear.
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Jun 12, 2011 22:56
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And so articling week ends in bitter disappointment.  One of my friends took a big firm job even though she's always been adamant that she'll only work at a small firm since she doesn't like big firms. It's amazing what desperation and watching other people fail will do to you.
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Jun 12, 2011 23:00
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So does anyone have any knowledge or experience about returning to law school after being academically dismissed. I'm raising an appeal but my particular school is unfriendly to academic appeals even when there are extraordinary circumstances. I have some professors willing to support me, but I am also preparing for the long road ahead. There are thousands of unemployed lawyers from good law schools, that were not academically dismissed. Do your friends completely oversee the local prosecutor's office? I come from a mid-sized city and I know the government jobs here aren't particularly discriminating about school, but they're still discriminating about grades, and I cannot imagine them hiring someone with a record of academic dismissal. I'm not trying to be a jerk, you make it seem like you have a good reason for your academic dismissal, but given that your transcript probably has failing grades on it, along with it seeming unlikely you would be able to hide the fact you were dismissed, I don't see how you would be considered employable. Get out now before the loans get bigger.
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Jun 13, 2011 00:02
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So does anyone have any knowledge or experience about returning to law school after being academically dismissed. I'm raising an appeal but my particular school is unfriendly to academic appeals even when there are extraordinary circumstances. I have some professors willing to support me, but I am also preparing for the long road ahead. After reading the other thread you're hosed. If your grades do not reflect the effort you put in - and instead, reflect a failing level of understanding of the material - then that means you are simply not able to hack it. Sorry. You have not described extraordinary circumstances, those are completely normal circumstances. Utterly ordinary. There is literally nothing extraordinary about them except I didn't realize you could actually fail out of law school: and that you can means you're at a terrible, terrible school. No job will touch someone who couldn't even manage to graduate at a terrible school, unless your "friends" happen to be powerful, corrupt politicians back home who could have that spot filled with their dog or their toddler if they wanted. There are no gold stars for effort.
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Jun 13, 2011 00:32
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Goddamnit awful app hates me
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Jun 13, 2011 01:19
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To answer a few questions, yes it was a t4 school. Yes my friends have a good deal of sway. It was for grades, in fact my GPA slipped despite following the school's academic help program and the increased level of effort. It was really disconcerting for me to see the amount of work I put in come to nothing. As for knowing the material I was told my first semester that it was my writing that hurt me and in my second semester I had no problem keeping up in class and all indications were that I had turned the corner. So either I did not study properly for law school, or indeed I am not cut out for law school. My gut feeling is that I took something for granted somewhere down the line, I've never said this wasn't my fault. As my loans they are public thankfully. As for stating why "I want to be a lawyer," I've grown up around lawyers I know the good, bad and the ugly. I have had other careers that did nothing for me and there is not much else that interests me. I also have political aspirations and being a prosecutor with the classic tough on crime record always looks nice. Also I enjoy arguing and pitting myself mentally against others. Sure its stubborn of me to say this is what I want to do, despite these grades. Did I make the mistake of going to a dumper of a law school? Absolutely. Is the market over saturated with lawyers, especially bad ones? You bet. Do I honestly believe I can do it and I am willing to pay the price for screwing this up? Yeah. I don't have plans to ever have a family, money isn't a huge concern. I'm not doing this for a Lambo or a summer beach house I will never go to. The only things that happened to me this semester was I became ill twice. Once was your standard Flu and the other was food poisoning. I don't have sudden on set law school ADD, even if I did have ADD that is something manageable. My question back to you all is the advice you are giving me coming from the collective tried and true "wisdom" of the legal profession or have you actually seen people in my situation carry on only to find they have entered an unwinable situation the likes of which only a game programmer at Sierra would set up.(See we can still have fun with this) While I do have this goal and I am stubborn whenever I set out on a task, I am also open to hear just what failed law students end up doing. If its some job like: male escort, assistant crack-whore, sign waving guy, Enterprise Rent A Car Management Trainee, porn theater janitor. Then maybe getting caught in that death loop and my only hope are some close family friends with law practices outside of those I have at the state prosecutors office is not such a horrible option. But I will tell you what if I do go back I promise to document the experience for you all so it either is heart warming tale you can tell to your little ones, or a painfully cautionary tale in which hilarity ensues in the form of street bum with just enough legal knowledge to be a complete embarrassment to his friends and family. Edit: Also I would note that I would simply start my first year over which is an option at my school. I wouldn't try to do 2L with these grades. Even though the school does note on the transcript that there are other bad grades out there I think seeing these better ones, theoretically, along with some redemption story could help. Alkabob fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 01:20
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So does anyone have any knowledge or experience about returning to law school after being academically dismissed. I'm raising an appeal but my particular school is unfriendly to academic appeals even when there are extraordinary circumstances. I have some professors willing to support me, but I am also preparing for the long road ahead. This is the single most pathetic thing I have ever had the pleasure of reading. Jesus loving christ. I feel so very bad for you. So utterly terrible. Why do you put yourself through this torture?
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Jun 13, 2011 01:23
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gently caress dude in that wall of text you posted between my edits (lol) you just became way way more pathetic. Jesus now I feel bad for you. well mostly for making fun of a goddamn retard. Is this a troll? It must be. Nobody can fail out of law school much less want to go back much les whine to the internet about it. Goddamn dude. You want the "wisdom"of the legal profession? Don't go, no jobs especially for you. You will die alone
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Jun 13, 2011 01:27
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quote:I feel so very bad for you. So utterly terrible. Why do you put yourself through this torture? When you say "this torture," do you mean the torture of law school or posting about my law school experience for all the goons to sink their teeth into? Well if you mean the torture of law school it was something I felt and still feel is for me. I admit to my stubborn nature, though its also been at times the one thing I could fall back on to get me through. If you mean torture as in exposing my gentle, soft cuddly life problem to the rest of the goons, that is easy. I like the sense of humor here, I'm not so proud that I can't acknowledge my own failure and I need something to keep me honest. So getting pilloried by the rest of you does make me reconsider my position and not just blindly charge on.
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Jun 13, 2011 01:33
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Scooter_McCabe posted:As for knowing the material I was told my first semester that it was my writing that hurt me and in my second semester I had no problem keeping up in class and all indications were that I had turned the corner. What type of law do you want to practice? There aren't a lot of areas of law where writing isn't a huge part of practicing. Aside from starting your own practice and hiring someone to write briefs, you are almost definitely going to be expected to be at least a decent writer (capable of passing school) and be able to convey your arguments both verbally and in written form, especially as a junior attorney. I can relate. I like writing, but I am not good at conveying my ideas verbally and I'm not a very good negotiator. I graduated law school from a T14 and am working at a big law firm making 6 figures but right now I'm looking for paralegal jobs at companies and am thinking I might be interested in moving towards compliance at some point. I would love it if I could just write briefs and let someone else present my arguments but its not the way most jobs are set up. There are other jobs out there for you. You aren't a good writer - what part of law are you good at? Can you study for the LSAT again and get a higher score and apply to better schools? Your job prospects are bad enough as a T4 student, never mind a T4 student with F's on their transcript. I can't imagine your friends have enough sway to get you hired with all the unemployed students from better schools without failing grades. You also have to be able to write essays in order to pass the bar exam, so that's going to be a huge barrier for you even if you do get back in if you really can't write well enough to stay in a T4. Honestly, I kind of want you to post a sample question/answer sample just so we can see.
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Jun 13, 2011 01:45
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