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Adar posted:This is not law related, but I really enjoy your D&D posts, even if they stifle the coming of the glorious people's social democratic revolution. The constitution thread was super special.
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Jun 13, 2011 06:00
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Hey guys, I've got a PhD in nuclear physics and was thinking about going to law school. I was recently let go from my last job after an accident in the lab subsequently made my health insurance go through the roof. Aside from some lingering affects from the accident and some anger issues I feel I'm in a good place to begin my legal career. I've always been told I'm really smart and my practice LSAT scores have been in the 177-180 range. As for "why I want to be a laywer," I like intellectual challenges and a friend of mine is a criminal defense attorney and he said he could help me out once I pass the bar. Of course, I'm pretty sure he only got his job because he's blind and they needed to fill a quota. Plus he's got some sort of weird night job he won't tell me about so I don't know if a lawyer who has to work two jobs is in a position to help anyone. My only real fear with going to law school is that I do not deal well with stress AT ALL but I'm not looking for a job that pays tons of money (aside from clothes I'm pretty frugal). So do you guys think that law school is for me or what? GamingHyena fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 06:00
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Hey guys, I've got a JD and was thinking of going to law school.
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Jun 13, 2011 06:10
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Well as a point of clarification I have heard everyone give reasons on why not to be an attorney, not to go to law school and of course not to go back. I have not heard anyone state what the "right reasons" are if there is such a thing. Green Crayons I think you make some very good points and I think if I ever do go back I'll it will only be after I properly examine why it is I want to enter the legal profession. Now I just have to get these loans out of the way, fortunately its only one year so I am not completely crippled. As for some previous questions I am 29 years old. I was a financial adviser and a decent one. Unfortunately when the market tanked I went with it and decided it was for the best, so I picked up an in between job while I applied to law school. So here we are now. As for the political interests I was involved back home with the Republican party, okay calm down I switched sides, until I felt they were going in a very bad direction locally and nationally. I am now more comfortable with the Democrat platform just in case you were curious. I was thinking of getting a government job either at the state or federal level as I do want to have a solid career and get on with my life as I do feel I'm approaching the event horizon of either having a career and a decent life or a complete bum.
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Jun 13, 2011 06:11
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Scooter_McCabe posted:Well as a point of clarification I have heard everyone give reasons on why not to be an attorney, not to go to law school and of course not to go back. I have not heard anyone state what the "right reasons" are if there is such a thing. Green Crayons I think you make some very good points and I think if I ever do go back I'll it will only be after I properly examine why it is I want to enter the legal profession. Now I just have to get these loans out of the way, fortunately its only one year so I am not completely crippled. I don't mean to be a jerk and continue the thread's trend of tearing you apart, but do you understand the difficulty of getting a state or federal job? On the law side, graduates from top schools are sacrificing their first-born children for such jobs. I know in my state even the greatest goon recommended profession, engineering, has an extremely difficult time finding state or federal employment. I've worked with state-employed attorneys, and although my antiquated state doesn't much care about the school its lawyers went to or even their grades, it is fairly consistent that the attorneys have 5-10 years of successful legal work on their resumes before the state will even consider them. topheryan fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 06:19
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:I don't mean to be a jerk and continue the thread's trend of tearing you apart, but do you understand the difficulty of getting a state or federal job? On the law side, graduates from top schools are sacrificing their first-born for such jobs. I know in my state even the greatest goon recommended profession, engineering, has an extremely difficult time finding state or federal employment. To get a federal job you had to have had a fedjob before the crash, or have been the world's best dicksucker as a federal intern. That's how it is in archaeology, and the fuckin' feds are all the same. You have the same chance at that job as you do to be President if you ran tomorrow. NONE.
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Jun 13, 2011 06:20
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Scooter_McCabe posted:Well as a point of clarification I have heard everyone give reasons on why not to be an attorney, not to go to law school and of course not to go back. I have not heard anyone state what the "right reasons" are if there is such a thing. Green Crayons I think you make some very good points and I think if I ever do go back I'll it will only be after I properly examine why it is I want to enter the legal profession. Now I just have to get these loans out of the way, fortunately its only one year so I am not completely crippled. Good reasons to go to law school: 1) Your last name is Skadden. 2) Legal aid saved you and you realized you can actually help people in this way and are independently wealthy. 3) Someone killed your father in a bumfuck county and since you can't hire an alcoholic cowboy to shoot his rear end, you're gonna send him to the chair yourself. 4) You really, really love children in a platonic way like that crazy Match.com woman loves cats and you realize being a social worker would break you so you want to have a layer of insulation between you and them and want to work as a attorney ad litem and also do not care about pay very much. Bad reasons to go to law school: 1) Prestige. 2) Money. 3) No jobs in your chosen field. 4) Politics. 5) Family pressure. 6) You like to argue. 7) People told you you were smart and you have no actual job skills.
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Jun 13, 2011 06:21
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shovelbum posted:I have been unemployed for 7 months as an archaeologist. Fast food won't hire me. I just took the LSAT - practice scores were in the 175-180 range, my GPA was ok, but you guys gotta tell this to me straight, is law worth doing? Everyone I hear from in law school I think drat, this sounds like the life. But should I just go try to be a merchant sailor instead and give up on indoor work? I come into this thread and you guys make it sound like the bleakest thing but in private sector archaeology I seen a man with 20 years experience and a masters working 16-18 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 30 or 40 grand and it was typical, and the government work is an old boys club. But y'all make law sound even worse than living in my mom's basement for 7 months getting rejected from McDonalds and from big firms every day no days off. DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. READ MY RANT FROM A COUPLE PAGES AGO. Law is soul sucking and is horrible, no matter which law school you get into.
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Jun 13, 2011 06:23
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MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:I don't mean to be a jerk and continue the thread's trend of tearing you apart, but do you understand the difficulty of getting a state or federal job? On the law side, graduates from top schools are sacrificing their first-born for such jobs. I know in my state even the greatest goon recommended profession, engineering, has an extremely difficult time finding state or federal employment. No its cool. It is good to hear this because I have always had a lot of people telling me I'm going place and going to be somebody, and I think that lead to a bit of an ego and over the top ambitions. I don't have a lot of people giving me the gut check I need, I think this "you can be whatever you want" matra that gets fed to everyone is more detrimental than people realize. If I wanted fluffy keep your chin up tiger talk I would not have posted here.
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Jun 13, 2011 06:23
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Wedesdo posted:DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. READ MY RANT FROM A COUPLE PAGES AGO. You had a cushy job as an engineer. Anyone could've told you you were making a mistake. edit: anyone know if engineer is still a good job and if engineering schools will take people with an undergrad degree as undergraduate freshmen? edit2: seriously first rule of the new economy is leaving a job voluntarily or not means you join those thrown into poverty to help shrink the middle class edit3: hey you guys always talk about big firms, where do sleazy small town lawyers come from? I was 100 miles from the nearest wal-mart and the town still had a ton of lawyers, who gets jobs like that? is it like the toughest thing? shovelbum fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 06:23
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Omerta posted:This is not law related, but I really enjoy your D&D posts, even if they stifle the coming of the glorious people's social democratic revolution. The constitution thread was super special. Thanks  *is a technocrat* *posts USSR constitution and bolds communications privacy provision as an example of things liberals should like*
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Jun 13, 2011 07:21
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So what careers are out there for those who do not make it through law school, have a BA in political science who have only ever known financial advising and before that worked in retail through college? Should I consider an MBA or is that more money down the tube?
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Jun 13, 2011 07:38
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So what careers are out there for those who do not make it through law school, have a BA in political science who have only ever known financial advising and before that worked in retail through college? Should I consider an MBA or is that more money down the tube? Are you in good shape? There is money on pipelines, I exagerrate the bleakness.
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Jun 13, 2011 07:47
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Scooter_McCabe posted:So what careers are out there for those who do not make it through law school, have a BA in political science who have only ever known financial advising and before that worked in retail through college? Should I consider an MBA or is that more money down the tube? Business school will probably request your law school transcripts, which likely won't end well.
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Jun 13, 2011 08:06
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Jun 13, 2011 08:15
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Yeah I had a feeling about that. Looks like I have painted myself into a corner rather nicely. I just may have to sit law school out for 2 years, retake the LSAT and try again just because I am stuck. Then even if I do make it, I have this little albatross to hang around my neck while I try to find a job. Still not a good reason but if the choice is having a JD with a black mark because of the grades or being a bum, well there isn't a choice at all is there. As for the pipeline deal I would need to get into shape for that, because I don't think round counts.
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Jun 13, 2011 08:18
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Well I am using my bum time to get into shape and eat right. Go get some barbell stuff off craigslist and head on over to W&W. It will do you a world of good and help you professionally to slim down.
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Jun 13, 2011 08:35
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Scooter_McCabe posted:Yeah I had a feeling about that. Looks like I have painted myself into a corner rather nicely. I just may have to sit law school out for 2 years, retake the LSAT and try again just because I am stuck. Then even if I do make it, I have this little albatross to hang around my neck while I try to find a job. Still not a good reason but if the choice is having a JD with a black mark because of the grades or being a bum, well there isn't a choice at all is there. Going back to law school will also require your previous law school transcripts, so I honestly don't know how well that would work. I'll also go against the grain here and say that maybe you should try to get back into your current school, because once you're out, you're probably not getting back in anywhere, higher LSAT or not. It's possible I'm completely wrong, though. I didn't apply to any T4s, I don't know if they request previous law school transcripts. T1s do. Regent sends me around twelve emails a day still, I suppose you could go there. topheryan fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 09:05
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Scooter_McCabe posted:Well as a point of clarification I have heard everyone give reasons on why not to be an attorney, not to go to law school and of course not to go back. I have not heard anyone state what the "right reasons" are if there is such a thing. Green Crayons I think you make some very good points and I think if I ever do go back I'll it will only be after I properly examine why it is I want to enter the legal profession. Now I just have to get these loans out of the way, fortunately its only one year so I am not completely crippled. Serious good reasons to go to law school: 1. You are independently wealthy and bored. 2. You are an academic superstar who can attend a T14 on scholarships with no cost to you. 3. You have a lawyer who is a relative with his or her own successful firm, who is approaching retirement age, and who approaches you begging you to take over his or her practice in a few years. 4. You are already deeply enmeshed in a niche industry that employs lawyers, having built up significant contacts in the industry, and you go to law school at night, in order to stay involved in the industry during the day. An example would be someone in the oil and gas field who goes to law school to become an oil and gas lawyer. 5. Your family has a family business that generates enough legal work to keep a lawyer busy all year long, and your family could send that work to you instead of John Doe, Esq. In short, the former model of "borrow your way through law school and someone will give you a job" is dead for all but the most prestigious law grads, and even then it is such a crapshoot that you shouldn't take on debt to do it. Otherwise, you either must be independently wealthy, such that you aren't depending upon law to put food on your table, or else have a plan to generate a client base before ever stepping foot into the hallowed halls of law school.
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Jun 13, 2011 11:27
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Scooter_McCabe posted:I was thinking of getting a government job either at the state or federal level as I do want to have a solid career and get on with my life as I do feel I'm approaching the event horizon of either having a career and a decent life or a complete bum. And as someone pointed out, state and federal jobs have civil service hiring rules. At my job, you interview with the local bosses and then your application package (which includes notes and impressions of your interview) is forwarded to a hiring committee in Washington, D.C., where the final decision is made. Therefore, even if you know the local bosses, it doesn't matter because they're not the ones with hiring authority. Regarding your friends who have promised you a job in state government, I can imagine three possibilities: (1) Your friends overestimate their importance in their organization and while they can make a recommendation to whoever has hiring authority, that recommendation won't mean poo poo when the HR person sees your law school transcript and dings your application for not meeting their threshold hiring criteria. (2) Your friends know drat well they don't have any kind of sway, but they want to feel important and don't care if it leads you to go down a bad path. (3) You live in a podunk, backwater town where the general rules don't apply and the government is run by Boss Hogg. You don't have to give us details about where you are, but maybe you can tell us more about the type of government office, the size of the agency, etc., and we can give you a better idea about whether your friends are shoveling poo poo into your mouth. None of this should be considered an endorsement of returning to law school, btw. I hate that this country has accepted the premise that you can't help but succeed if you only put your mind to it! That's bullshit. People fail. You failed. Pick yourself up and find something else to do.
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Jun 13, 2011 13:26
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Bob Traurig gave me a check at my wedding and I didn't get a job there.
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Jun 13, 2011 14:23
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Scooter_McCabe posted:Yeah I had a feeling about that. Looks like I have painted myself into a corner rather nicely. I just may have to sit law school out for 2 years, retake the LSAT and try again just because I am stuck. Then even if I do make it, I have this little albatross to hang around my neck while I try to find a job. Still not a good reason but if the choice is having a JD with a black mark because of the grades or being a bum, well there isn't a choice at all is there. Honestly one aborted year of law school will probably be less of a millstone around your neck than successfully completing your JD with mediocre at best grades from a lovely school. Right now you can say to employers, if they even care, that you tried law school and it wasn't for you, or make up something to cover 1 year of unemployment. At least you won't have the "oh he's just gonna leave for the 100k legal job" thing to contend with. Honestly if you're really set on going to a graduate school maybe you should try B-school; I don't know that much about it but I'm sure you can find out somewhere.
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Jun 13, 2011 14:43
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I need to figure out what firms I should bid for during our Early Interview Program. The problem is, I really don't want to work for a firm, I'm just trying to keep my options open. My dream job is getting into DOJ Honors and work for the Criminal Division but I know that I have close to no chance at getting that. I'm pretty sure I want to work in Crim no matter what. Are there any particular Big Law firms that have strong criminal defense practices or are they all mainly focused on finance and M&A work? I really don't know much at all about Big Law since I've never wanted to work in it but if I wind up there anyway, I'd like to work in a field that I at least find interesting. I'm going into 2L at Columbia.
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Jun 13, 2011 16:25
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What did you do 1L summer? Also, if you're interested in crim and don't want to work for a firm, all the states (that I know of!) have local offices that do nothing but criminal prosecution. They're generally known as prosecutor's offices and are usually headed by an elected official. In New York these are called "District Attorney's Offices" but the name may vary state-to-state. The most common alternative is "State's Attorney," although "Commonwealth Attorney" is also semi-common.
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Jun 13, 2011 16:36
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:Bob Traurig gave me a check at my wedding and I didn't get a job there. I didn't need to ask him for a job because I got my jobs on my own merit -~*bootstraps*~- Also, how do you phrase a wedding invite to married judges? Honorable and Honorable? Or is it Honorables? Holland Oats posted:I need to figure out what firms I should bid for during our Early Interview Program. The problem is, I really don't want to work for a firm, I'm just trying to keep my options open. My dream job is getting into DOJ Honors and work for the Criminal Division but I know that I have close to no chance at getting that. I'm pretty sure I want to work in Crim no matter what. Are there any particular Big Law firms that have strong criminal defense practices or are they all mainly focused on finance and M&A work? I really don't know much at all about Big Law since I've never wanted to work in it but if I wind up there anyway, I'd like to work in a field that I at least find interesting. I'm going into 2L at Columbia. I think you have to be a huge badass to get those though - one was a 7th circuit clerk, the other was a supreme court clerk. The only common and relevant biglaw criminal defense practices will be white collar defense, I think.
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Jun 13, 2011 16:37
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I was a fool to abandon the windsor for the deceptive ease of the four-in-hand and the pratt. Windsor4lyfe.
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Jun 13, 2011 16:40
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shovelbum posted:
I like my job, but I am a weirdo who enjoys patent prosecution. Most normal and well-adjusted people find this work frightfully boring. I also work at a firm that doesn't hire patent agents, so I would not have gotten this job without a JD, though I suppose I theoretically could have always found a job at another firm doing similar work without going to law school. NJ Deac fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 16:47
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Holland Oats posted:I need to figure out what firms I should bid for during our Early Interview Program. The problem is, I really don't want to work for a firm, I'm just trying to keep my options open. My dream job is getting into DOJ Honors and work for the Criminal Division but I know that I have close to no chance at getting that. I'm pretty sure I want to work in Crim no matter what. Are there any particular Big Law firms that have strong criminal defense practices or are they all mainly focused on finance and M&A work? I really don't know much at all about Big Law since I've never wanted to work in it but if I wind up there anyway, I'd like to work in a field that I at least find interesting. I'm going into 2L at Columbia. Biglaw doesn't do criminal defense unless it's white-collar (rich people committing non-violent crimes, usually federal, usually money-related). You probably want to look for places with well-respected white-collar practices - but from what I gather this may be a good way to get a good resume for when the DoJ starts hiring so it may not be terrible for you. evilweasel fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 16:52
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Scooter_McCabe posted:Yeah I had a feeling about that. Looks like I have painted myself into a corner rather nicely. Chances are you're better off without the J.D. than with it. You tried law school for a year, it didn't work out, you cut your losses / had them cut for you. This way you avoid spending an extra three years and $100,000 only to be passed over for legal jobs (T4 school with middle-of-the-road grades if you're very lucky) and non-legal jobs (overqualified flight risk) while trying to deal with a whole bunch of student loans, and that's all provided you don't fail out again. You have a polisci degree and some experience with finance stuff; use those. Like Scraps suggested, you might want to pick up a copy of Elements of Style first.
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Jun 13, 2011 17:41
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Holland Oats posted:Are there any particular Big Law firms that have strong criminal defense practices or are they all mainly focused on finance and M&A work? Most Big Law firms have a litigation department at the very least. It's not criminal defense but it's also not finance and M&A work which is largely on the transactional side of things. White Collar crime, Antitrust, Government Investigations/Special Matters - these are all departments that some firms have that you'd probably at least be interested in. Pick firms that have a large group in these areas in the office that they're hiring for. Most firms will also want you to rotate departments during your summer - Ask how the rotation work - can you rotate through white collar crime/antitrust/etc specifically or would it be a more general rotation through commercial litigation. Other subsets on the litigation side that probably aren't quite up your alley but would be better than finance/M&A might be healthcare litigation or mass torts litigation. Again, ask if these are actual groups that you can rotate through. Lots of firms have the fact that they "practice" a certain kind of law on their website but it really means one partner has taken on 3 cases over the course of his time there, and that's their "practice."
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Jun 13, 2011 17:58
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quote:Clarification - small words:
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Jun 13, 2011 18:01
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If I have a chemical engineering degree should I go to law school at a large public university and then do patent law?
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Jun 13, 2011 18:01
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Celot posted:If I have a chemical engineering degree should I go to law school at a large public university and then do patent law? Answer is probably not. Seems like most of the patent demand is focused on pharma and EE/CompE. Maybe if you live in Houston or Dallas or something there's a lot of ChemE work. Unless that large public university is Michigan or Virginia, and you get a full ride.
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Jun 13, 2011 18:29
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Celot posted:If I have a chemical engineering degree should I go to law school at a large public university and then do patent law? Maybe. More facts please. undergrad GPA? LSAT score? Do you have a masters or Ph.D. In chem engi? Are you already in debt from undergrad? Where do you want to live?
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Jun 13, 2011 18:31
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Scooter_McCabe posted:
I think I may have had something to say about this in the past...
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Jun 13, 2011 18:38
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Scooter_McCabe posted:Well as a point of clarification I have heard everyone give reasons on why not to be an attorney, not to go to law school and of course not to go back. I have not heard anyone state what the "right reasons" are if there is such a thing. Green Crayons I think you make some very good points and I think if I ever do go back I'll it will only be after I properly examine why it is I want to enter the legal profession. Now I just have to get these loans out of the way, fortunately its only one year so I am not completely crippled. Okay, since you're completely disregarding reality and apparently really want to go back to law school, here's your game plan: Re-take the LSAT (if needed) and apply to the law school at Liberty University. Pray, just like all the other slaves to the Sky Bully, for a Republican to take over the White House in 2012 and literally--I'm in no way being hyperbolic or in any way being figurative here--suck dick at the Republican-held DOJ for a shot (hehe) at a job. Suck lots and lots of dick, and give bonus rim jobs without even being told.
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Jun 13, 2011 18:41
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Quote taken from a TLS economy thread some NYU student posted:It also depends a lot WHERE you're willing to go for work. If you isolate out certain markets, you will find that many of them are doing better than the country as a whole. Barrow is the next step.
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Jun 13, 2011 18:57
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GamingHyena posted:Hey guys, I've got a PhD in nuclear physics and was thinking about going to law school. I was recently let go from my last job after an accident in the lab subsequently made my health insurance go through the roof. Aside from some lingering affects from the accident and some anger issues I feel I'm in a good place to begin my legal career. I've always been told I'm really smart and my practice LSAT scores have been in the 177-180 range. I want you to know I both recognize and appreciate your humor.
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Jun 13, 2011 19:40
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IrritationX posted:Okay, since you're completely disregarding reality and apparently really want to go back to law school, here's your game plan: I think you missed a whole lot of posts of me changing my mind and accepting reality. I will probably sit out for two years in hopes I can get my life on track and just write off the whole experience as character building and as something that I tried so when I look back there were no nagging questions of "could I have been." I like the Pennsylvania area I'm in so I'll be looking for jobs there. If anyone has anything that is substantive and worth while I am all ears.
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Jun 13, 2011 19:43
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Celot posted:If I have a chemical engineering degree should I go to law school at a large public university and then do patent law? BS or higher? If higher, just take the patent bar and get a job as a patent agent. If just BS, you're not going to get hired.
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Jun 13, 2011 19:46
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