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What requires you to use a polearm specifically? I was assuming you were shooting for Polearm Momentum, which explicitly triggers off spears as well as polearms.
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Jun 13, 2011 20:54
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thespaceinvader posted:What requires you to use a polearm specifically? I was assuming you were shooting for Polearm Momentum, which explicitly triggers off spears as well as polearms. I was wanting to combine Polearm Gamble with Polearm momentum, but that's a good point that momentum will work fine with as spear. quote:Polearm Gamble
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Jun 13, 2011 21:05
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Klungar posted:Taclord is one of those builds "based on spamming one particular attack with an overpowered rider effect over and over again" (i.e. Commander's Strike) Considering that you're going to be laying down Warlord's Favour/Hail of Steel/Death from Two Sides/etc for the first three turns, I'm not sure that you're going to be spamming Commander's strike a lot. There's also intuitive strike to consider, which is also pretty boss too.
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Jun 13, 2011 21:09
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All I meant was that Taclord is one of those corner-cases where their Secondary is extremely powerful, and worth dropping down to an 18 in your Primary, which the Lazylord is the ultimate proof of.
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Jun 13, 2011 21:17
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Drewjitsu posted:What about leader classes? For example, the taclord that I ran used an 18/18 str/int. Having extra squares on re-orient the axis, or a few extra damage on Adaptive stratagem, etc. seemed like it was worth it. (normal) Tactical warlords still have to hit. I'd take a better chance not to miss over +1 square slid or whatever any day. Obviously, if the majority of your stuff doesn't involve you making an attack roll at all that's another story. MadScientistWorking posted:Its a dumb idea to forgo the secondary if any class that relies on secondaries as a rider for an at-will or an ability. Ferrnius logic basically turns a lot of classes into a half baked pseudo striker and I'm not even sure what classes he actually bothers to play given the fact that most abilities that are interesting utilize the secondary to maximize the effects. Very rarely do you end up with powers that key off the same ability score for attack and the effect. In fact anything with leader abilities or leaders necessitate the dual scores. I've played a lot of 4e and been every role at least once over the years the game's been out. I have no idea what "half-baked pseudo striker" is supposed to mean. Yeah, a Bard with 20 Charisma isn't more effective at healing and passing buffs to his allies or anything. NOT - Borat
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Jun 13, 2011 21:33
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Ferrinus posted:
MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 13, 2011 |
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Jun 13, 2011 21:53
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MadScientistWorking posted:I find that hard to believe because there are a list of powers that are rendered completely and utterly useless because the buffs would be practically meaningless. Name three.
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Jun 13, 2011 21:56
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MadScientistWorking posted:I find that hard to believe because there are a list of powers that are rendered completely and utterly useless because the buffs would be practically meaningless. ??? You realize we're talking about a one point difference, right? This is the difference between 20(+5)/16(+3) and 18(+4)/18(+4). What exactly becomes meaningless if it's 3 but worthwhile if it's 4? This gets more complicated if you're also trying to swing Dex 13 for the purpose of Dual Implement Spellcaster, but DIS's damage bonus isn't really high enough to be worth it in heroic tier and by Paragon or Epic you've got enough free stat increases that you'll have it regardless.
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Jun 13, 2011 22:05
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adaz posted:I was wanting to combine Polearm Gamble with Polearm momentum, but that's a good point that momentum will work fine with as spear. I realised it was Gamble shortly after I posted, actually. There is a way, however, but it does require you being 24th level - Eternal Defender allows you to wield weapons as if Large, which lets you wield Medium 2-handers one-handed.
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Jun 13, 2011 23:04
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thespaceinvader posted:I realised it was Gamble shortly after I posted, actually. Mother of god, now I really want to be an eternal defender dual wielding gigantic gently caress all polearms as a dwarf 
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Jun 14, 2011 02:26
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Polearm Master. Dual wield greatspears, have threatening reach 3 for a whole encounter every day. Or Goliath/Stoneblessed for a round of threatening reach 4 every encounter. And then take Monastic Disciple and Transcendent Ki Focus.
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Jun 14, 2011 02:41
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Maybe I'm in a party of terrible characters (I am) but I don't think I could take the sacrifices I'd have to make in order to get a 20 in my primary stat. My healer is terrible, he built himself purposefully as non-combat as he could, so his heals are great, but once he's out he's worthless. The other striker in the group deals maybe 2/3 of my damage, and the tank is o.k. but not great. Also we have no scout in the group (no stealth, no perception, no thievery) and I find myself taking on those duties even though my character is terrible at them. Also, I am off-tanking in every fight. My current plan, since I just leveled to 4 is to multi-class cleric so my group has another heal on hand (which has been a wanted luxury in almost every fight), and so I can take Warpriest at 11 so I can off-tank better. In the interim, I feel forced to take skill training in at least Perception so my party isn't getting ambushed every fight. My stats are negotiable, as my GM is cool with switching stuff around, and my magic gear is what I could scrape up "in game"(the versatile weapon has a daily DOT/Weaken on it) So what I want to know is, should I keep on with this character/clusterfuck or should I just roll a new character? Here's my current character: ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Human, Slayer Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort Occupation - Merchant (+2 to Diplomacy) FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 19, CON 11, DEX 17, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 10 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 16, CON 11, DEX 16, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 10 AC: 19 Fort: 21 Ref: 18 Will: 16 HP: 49 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 12 TRAINED SKILLS Athletics +10, Endurance +6, Heal +8, Religion +6, Streetwise +7 UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +4, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +3, History +1, Insight +3, Intimidate +2, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth +4, Thievery +4 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike Fighter Utility: Unfettered Fury Fighter Utility: Poised Assault Cleric Utility: Healing Word Fighter Utility 2: Crowd Fighting FEATS Level 1: Improved Defenses Level 1: Axe Expertise Level 2: Toughness Level 4: Initiate of the Faith ITEMS Adventurer's Kit Point Blank Javelin +1 Chainmail of Cleansing +1 x1 Dynamic Greataxe +2 x1 Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier) x1 Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier) x1 Amulet of Protection +1 x1 ====== End ======
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Jun 14, 2011 03:12
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Well, I dicked around and this is what I came up with:pre:Pvt. Scott, level 4 Human, Slayer Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort Background: Occupation - Mariner (Perception class skill) FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 21, Con 11, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10. STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 18, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10. pre:AC: 19 Fort: 21 Reflex: 16 Will: 16 HP: 44 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 11 pre:TRAINED SKILLS Streetwise +7, Perception +7, Endurance +6, Athletics +11, Diplomacy +7 UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +3, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Dungeoneering +2, History +1, Insight +2, Intimidate +2, Nature +2, Heal +2, Religion +1, Stealth +3, Thievery +3 FEATS Human: Axe Expertise Level 1: Iron Will Level 2: Student of Battle Level 4: Skill Power pre:POWERS Skill Power: Endure Pain Slayer utility 1: Berserker's Charge Slayer utility 1: Mobile Blade Slayer utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude I swapped your utility stances to Mobile Blade and Berserker's Charge. Berserker's Charge nets you a cool +3 to your attack (+1 from the charge itself, +2 from the stance), and you can cover more ground. So you can start a round in Mobile Blade, hit a chump, move 2 squares (take an OA if you didn't drop the chump, reduced by 5 if you used Endure Pain before starting your turn), spend a minor to enter Berserker's Charge, spend an action point, charge 7 squares and smack a guy from potentially 9 whole squares away from the original chump. All with a big static damage bonus. I would strongly recommend dumping Unfettered Fury no matter what -- attack penalties are bad, and you have plenty of static damage bonuses that you don't need this one. At least not enough to pay -2 to-hit.
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Jun 14, 2011 05:03
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So with Pact Blade Manifestation in playtest I decided to try and build a better Hexblade. It may not be 100% optimal (from my understanding melee 'locks generally go with Infernal/CON rather than Fey/CHA) but I'm pretty much set on making that drat magic sword thingy work. Here's what I've got so far: ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Ire, level 3 Revenant, Rogue|Warlock Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Fey Pact (Hybrid) Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma Hybrid Warlock: Hybrid Warlock Will Choose your Race in Life: Human FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 18. STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 16. AC: 17 Fort: 12 Reflex: 17 Will: 17 HP: 33 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 8 TRAINED SKILLS Thievery +10, Stealth +10, Athletics +6, Acrobatics +10, Intimidate +12 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +2, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering, Endurance +3, Heal, History +2, Insight, Nature, Perception, Religion +2, Streetwise +5 FEATS Level 1: Superior Implement Training (Accurate rod) Level 2: Pact Blade Manifestation Feat User Choice: Improved Defenses Feat User Choice: Implement Expertise (Rod) Feat User Choice: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade) POWERS Hybrid at-will 1: Eldritch Strike Hybrid at-will 1: Sly Flourish Hybrid encounter 1: Sprite War Call Hybrid daily 1: Armor of Winter's Grasp Hybrid utility 2: Ethereal Stride Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash ITEMS Blade of Winter's Mourning, Leather Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Thieves' Tools, Accurate rod ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ====== We get Improved Defenses and any of the old style Expertise feats we want for free. Also keep in mind this is a low-magic inherent bonuses game and I can't really count on getting any fun toys (we're even starting with 100g at level 3). I'm looking for a couple of pieces of advice from those more familiar with the system than I: 1) I threw 13 into INT so I could qualify for Swordmage MC. Is that going to give me anything? I know I could eventually take AIP (Light Blade) if I wanted for the same number of feats. Is there another MC that would work better? 2) I went with Rogue for the other half mainly as a legacy from the Hexblade (it's DEX based and I was getting a kick out of being a Revenant since we're going to be working for Hades for a while). Is there something that meshes better with a melee CHAlock? I do like the nova potential of Low Slash but my main concern is deciding on which striker ability to buff with feats since I can definitely see this build being extremely feat-starved. Also the whole implement vs weapon vs weaponimplement thing. Would Executioner be a better choice? I'm completely unfamiliar with Assassin stuff. Though I will admit it's nice to have more skills from the Rogue since I'll probably be the sneaky skill monkey (though all I gain is Acrobatics and a not quite as lovely Athletics). 3) Assuming I stay Revenant is there a better subrace I can choose than Human? This is the first striker I've built so I don't know what races' feats help out with that. 4) Eldritch Blast is there mainly so I have a RBA in case the Taclord has any to hand out. Though I honestly kind of doubt he'll have any since I don't think he's taking that at-will. In any case I need something ranged to poke people with since we're a very melee heavy group (Taclord, Blackguard, Warden/Swordmage, the last guy hasn't decided). Would something like Eyebite be worth the step down in damage and utility to keep me alive longer? ImpactVector fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jun 14, 2011 |
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Jun 14, 2011 05:21
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Pvt.Scott posted:Slayer stuff As a Slayer you have a moral obligation to take Gouge proficiency and the Surprising Charge feat. Your other two feats should be Spear Expertise and the feat to swap a Power Strike use for Rain of Blows. gently caress healing, just kill things before they can hurt you.
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Jun 14, 2011 11:40
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J. Alfred Prufrock posted:As a Slayer you have a moral obligation to take Gouge proficiency and the Surprising Charge feat. Holy poo poo, I just threw those into the character builder, and that's...not ever fair. Man I suck at 4e char op. I used to be good in 3.5  Not to mention that the gouge counts as an axe so i can use it with weapon specialization (or whatever that slayer class feature is called). I had been using a mordenkrad at levels 1-3 because 2d6 brutal 1 is nice with power Strike, but hell this is like a mordenkrad but better. Not to mention Rain of Blows is just nuts.Now I've got to decide between the party helper flexibility stuff Gomi posted (ty btw) and an unstoppable engine of destruction. Pvt.Scott fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Jun 14, 2011 |
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Jun 14, 2011 12:11
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Pvt.Scott posted:Holy poo poo, I just threw those into the character builder, and that's...not ever fair. Man I suck at 4e char op. I used to be good in 3.5 At this point it becomes a pretty meta decisions -- will your party dynamics be negatively affected by your becoming a battle-mobile wrecking-poo poo engine? Might everyone up their own game in response? Or are they gonna feel outshone and be less committed to game? Party power imbalances can be bad for a long-term game. If you think everyone's gonna keep sucking and/or be annoyed by a big effectiveness gap, the more party-friendly build might be a better idea. But that's kind of outside CharOp's purview. From a pure 'I want my guy to be a better guy,' J. Alfred Prufrock's input is what I'd go with.
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Jun 14, 2011 15:30
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J. Alfred Prufrock posted:As a Slayer you have a moral obligation to take Gouge proficiency and the Surprising Charge feat. Toss a Badge of the Berserker on your neck so you don't provoke OA while charging, kill everything. Ferrinus posted:New 4th edition players: anyone who tells you that you shouldn't max out your attack stat (which normally means starting with a 20, but might involve starting with a 19 if you're in a one shot or other game in which stat-ups will max out your attack stat at an even number anyway) is literally lying to you for the purpose of harming your character. That +1 to attack/damage and +1 to one or two defenses is superior to +1 to two or three defenses is so transparently obvious that anyone who tells you differently is clearly lying with malicious intent. What about classes that rely on 3 stats, like Paladin? Right now I'm half the healing and all of the defending in a very striker heavy party, so a 20 in my primary stat was a no-go if I wanted half decent survivability and lay on hands uses. GruntyThrst fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jun 16, 2011 |
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Jun 16, 2011 13:48
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GruntyThrst posted:What about classes that rely on 3 stats, like Paladin? There are no such classes.
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Jun 16, 2011 15:09
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Gomi posted:There are no such classes. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Jun 16, 2011 |
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Jun 16, 2011 15:24
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MadScientistWorking posted:He just described a Paladin build that requires three different stats. Effectively, its a Cha, Wis, and Con build because all three of those stats can or will affect your healing output. You're going to get, what, 3 extra points of healing out of putting points into con? One more point in your fort defense? Without putting any points in con you're already going to have way more healing surges and a bigger HP pool than any of those strikers - it's baked into the class. I don't think there's a single class that gets as many base surges as Paladins do. My level 18 Paladin has 11 surges, way more than anyone except our con-focused shaman, and since he has ardent vow rather than lay on hands he doesn't ever come close to running out of surges. And that's including the fact that I tend to burn up one preemptively every combat (virtue) and I have an encounter power that eats a hit every combat, try to get in the way etc. I also have a cloak of the walking wounded and use it whenever it's relevant.
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Jun 16, 2011 15:42
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MadScientistWorking posted:He just described a Paladin build that requires three different stats. Effectively, its a Cha, Wis, and Con build because all three of those stats can or will affect your healing output. There are builds in a class that use three stats. There is a pretty broad consensus that, outside of very specific gear loadouts or corner case situations, prioritizing three stats is tantamount to not prioritizing any, because the points loadout doesn't allow for it. There are no classes that require three stats. I stand by the original statement. quote:Its pretty much the only class in which it is easy to out heal a leader. A tightly built, focused, and geared paladin might approach the effectiveness of a low or maybe mid-range leader. If you focus on healing and healing only, ignoring a lot of the other things leaders do, then a positioning/saving-throw focused leader might heal about as much as a healing-obsessed paladin, but that paladin is going to pay for it by being less effective at his ostensible job.
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Jun 16, 2011 15:46
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He could be using something like hammer rhythm in which con becomes a very important stat, or just need it for feat pre-reqs. When you say no class requires 3 stats you are correct, but there are plenty of specific builds that might just to meet feat pre-reqs, power benefits, and so forth. For the billionth time, there are reasons you don't necessarily want to take a 20 in your primary stat. adaz fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Jun 16, 2011 |
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Jun 16, 2011 16:15
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Can we all agree that taking a race that does not have a stat boost to your primary stat is pure masochism though?
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Jun 16, 2011 16:37
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Splicer posted:Can we all agree that taking a race that does not have a stat boost to your primary stat is pure masochism though? There are some racial powers and feats that make it very tempting for some builds, and dwarves were wis/con for a long time yet made great Fighters becase dwarf supremacy, but outside of that, yeah.
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Jun 16, 2011 16:48
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adaz posted:For the billionth time, there are reasons you don't necessarily want to take a 20 in your primary stat. In case I was giving anyone the wrong impression, I don't disagree with this at all. Two secondary stats are viable, if you really know what you're doing and are willing to make the tradeoffs, but I wouldn't really call them optimized in the sense that CharOp usually uses.
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Jun 16, 2011 16:51
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I ended up making almost all the characters in my current party, because everybody is some combination of ignorant and lazy, and everybody has a 20 in their attack stat except the dwarf shaman, who's rolling with an 18 in Wis/Con because I felt compelled to give him a 13 Str so he could have an AC better than 13.
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Jun 16, 2011 16:56
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GruntyThrst posted:What about classes that rely on 3 stats, like Paladin? Right now I'm half the healing and all of the defending in a very striker heavy party, so a 20 in my primary stat was a no-go if I wanted half decent survivability and lay on hands uses. Your Wisdom should give you plenty of lay on hands uses. If you want more uses (in effect), multiclass into Shaman or Cleric for a daily healing word, and take healing utility powers. If you want more healing surges, buy Durable. If you want more general survivability, buy Superior [non-AC defense] or just Improved Defenses. If you want more accuracy, buy... huh. That's strange. Despite a plethora of feat options for increasing the stuff your non-primary stats increase, there's no trivial way to increase your accuracy above the norm. What can this mean... adaz posted:He could be using something like hammer rhythm in which con becomes a very important stat, or just need it for feat pre-reqs. When you say no class requires 3 stats you are correct, but there are plenty of specific builds that might just to meet feat pre-reqs, power benefits, and so forth. Every point of con bonus increases your damage on a miss by one point. Every point of str (or whatever) bonus increases your damage on a hit by one point, and increases your chance to hit. Hammer Rhythm is not a reason to reduce your attack stat in order to increase your constitution.
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Jun 16, 2011 20:06
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Ferrinus posted:What can this mean...
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Jun 16, 2011 20:18
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MadScientistWorking posted:That you don't know the rules well enough to figure out how to increase the accuracy beyond raising your primary stat. Ah, yes. Ah, yes. aH` yEs
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Jun 16, 2011 20:29
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Ferrinus posted:Ah, yes. Ah, yes. aH` yEs Do you have anything to contribute other than shitposts like this, Ferrinus?
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Jun 16, 2011 20:37
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I know this got asked on like the first page, but it kind of got brushed under the rug : What is the least lovely build for a PHB1-exclusive Warlock? I really like Warlocks, but my group doesn't allow extra supplements and poo poo, and Warlocks just suck so badly.
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Jun 16, 2011 20:46
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Ferrinus posted:Every point of con bonus increases your damage on a miss by one point. Every point of str (or whatever) bonus increases your damage on a hit by one point, and increases your chance to hit. Hammer Rhythm is not a reason to reduce your attack stat in order to increase your constitution. There are side benefits to con too, including increased defenses, surges, feat-prerequisites, and HP that can make it a worthwhile contribution especially since all you are giving up is a 5% chance to hit and + 1 damage. For instance if you had a hybrid battlemind/paladin built around hammer rhythm + brutal barrage and its various abuses it would make complete sense to not have strength be 20, but to focus equally on CON. A blind "20 in primary attack stat" really pushes out a lot of the more interesting things that can be done with the design space. .
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Jun 16, 2011 20:55
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Xiahou Dun posted:I know this got asked on like the first page, but it kind of got brushed under the rug : Infernal > Fey >>>>>>>>> Star
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Jun 16, 2011 21:21
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Xiahou Dun posted:I know this got asked on like the first page, but it kind of got brushed under the rug : It really depends on what you want to do. If you want to be a ~*striker*~, play infernal. If you want to gently caress people over for the hell of it, play Fey. If you wnat to suck, play star. Remember: You can pick powers that don't relate to your pact. That's really the most important thing about playing a PHB1 Warlock.
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Jun 16, 2011 21:22
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Wait, you can? Holy poo poo. I need to re-read the PHB.
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Jun 16, 2011 21:26
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It locks you into at-wills but you can pick dailys and encounters related to the other pacts.
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Jun 16, 2011 21:27
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adaz posted:There are side benefits to con too, including increased defenses, surges, feat-prerequisites, and HP that can make it a worthwhile contribution especially since all you are giving up is a 5% chance to hit and + 1 damage. The side benefits to con are easily replicated or outright replaced with straightforward and universally-available feats. The side benefits to [attack stat] are not. A character built around hammer rhythm and brutal barrage is A) not interesting B) stronger for having a 20 in Constitution. I have no idea why people bring up gimmick builds that spam a single attack over and over again as arguments for not maxing out attack stats, anyway. Who would actually want to play this poo poo? Also, I'm really tired of "All you are giving up is a 5% chance to hit and +1 damage" because it always contrives to imply that you're, like, getting +8 con in return for -2 attack stat. That is not what happens. In exchange for -1 hit, you get +1 to some defense and to your number of healing surges, or +2 at best. This is not a good trade.
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Jun 17, 2011 00:35
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Ferrinus posted:Also, I'm really tired of "All you are giving up is a 5% chance to hit and +1 damage" because it always contrives to imply that you're, like, getting +8 con in return for -2 attack stat. That is not what happens. In exchange for -1 hit, you get +1 to some defense and to your number of healing surges, or +2 at best. This is not a good trade. Mostly it implies that a 5% difference in hit chance is not crippling to a character. Which, despite your repeated assertions, it's not. It's often a very good choice, and you're on to something about the other benefits often (though not always) being accessible through feats. However. You're massively devaluing all the other things that a different stat allocation can open up, including access to other feats with ability score requirements, or ability-mod-based riders that affect the battlefield out of proportion to 1 point of damage. The marginal utility of an attack that, ceteris paribus, hits 60% of the time and pushes 1 vs one that hits 55% of the time and pushes 2 is not overwhelmingly, axiomatically, automatically in favor of the former. It's a trade-off, calling for judgement and, in the original sense of the word, discrimination. In cases where, as you say, all the character gets in return for dropping from 20 to 18 is +1 to a defense or two, I've agreed with you -- that's often not a worthwhile trade to make. That is not the only case that exists.
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Jun 17, 2011 00:54
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Gomi posted:Mostly it implies that a 5% difference in hit chance is not crippling to a character. Which, despite your repeated assertions, it's not. Ah, yes, my assertions that a 5% difference in hit chance is "crippling" to a character. Those assertions I keep making about characters being crippled - literally crippled !! - if they have one less point of attack bonus! Gosh I sure am crazy for saying that so much! Of course, even 55% hit, Push 2 versus 60% hit, Push 1 isn't an honest comparison. It's 55% on every power and Push 2 on that one power versus 60% hit (and +1 damage) on every power and Push 1 on a single power. And, of course, it's Push 4 instead of Push 5 on another power that invokes your primary instead of your secondary attack stat.
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Jun 17, 2011 01:15
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