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If that five year old can be proven able to make electronics or shoes they will end up in jail quick smart... if not they might get off with it.
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Jun 10, 2011 22:01
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Adar posted:On the one hand this is the kind of thread about Really Bad Things where people get upset for good reason and followup overreactions are understandable. On the other, no, they're not going to charge a 5 year old for murder and you're being silly. We're actually now more "tough on crime" than we were in 1929 (which is scary), so I won't rule it out. Conviction might be different, but DAs do all sorts of weird rear end crap.
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Jun 10, 2011 22:15
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We're not tough on crime, we're tough on the accused, the convicted, and populations which are believed to be full of criminals.
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Jun 10, 2011 23:20
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Pope Guilty posted:We're not tough on crime, we're tough on the accused, the convicted, and populations which are believed to be full of criminals.
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Jun 11, 2011 00:41
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HELLO THERE posted:I don't think we are "tough on crime;" the PIC is "tough on us" -- unless you're rich or work/manage the prison system, "tough on crime" targets you. It is a crime to extract wages from a capitalist's profit.
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Jun 11, 2011 02:00
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We're not only tough on "crime" - we are constantly adding things to the list of things that are crimes. So many people use the rationalization "I don't break the law, so I will stay out of jail" without realizing how many crimes they commit. How many felonies surprise you? Have you unwittingly committed a felony?
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Jun 11, 2011 20:04
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sootikins posted:We're not only tough on "crime" - we are constantly adding things to the list of things that are crimes. So many people use the rationalization "I don't break the law, so I will stay out of jail" without realizing how many crimes they commit. Everyone in America is a criminal of one sort or another. This actually weakens the rule of law, when everyone is a criminal suddenly the police have arbitrary arrest powers.
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Jun 11, 2011 21:56
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Rutibex posted:Everyone in America is a criminal of one sort or another. This actually weakens the rule of law, when everyone is a criminal suddenly the police have arbitrary arrest powers. It handily explains why police are such assholes to 'civilians'... we are just criminals in waiting, if we arent criminals already.
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Jun 12, 2011 18:42
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I haven't been following this thread so I'm not sure if this has been posted yet but I found it cool: NAACP ads at the metro station at DCA airport.quote:On May 1, the NAACP released billboards throughout DC's Reagan National Airport highlighting America's overemphasis on mass incarceration. The billboard was released as a part of the Association's "Misplaced Priorities" campaign, which calls for revised policies that will save money by downsizing prison populations while shifting savings toward education budgets. These ads are seen by a lot of commuters and anyone (including congressional staffers) who takes metro to National Airport. They're very hard to miss.
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Jun 15, 2011 15:02
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So, you guys know how Georgia has been trying its damndest to give Arizona a run for its money? Well, thanks to our recent racist law, which is very much like Arizona's, many migrant workers have left the state. So what should we do? All this produce has to be picked by someone. Here's Gov. Nathan Deal's carefully considered idea.quote:VALDOSTA — With the recent exodus of undocumented Hispanic migrant workers leaving Georgia to avoid the consequences of House Bill 87, Gov. Nathan Deal made a statement on Tuesday suggesting that probationers could potentially fill the approximately 11,000 open jobs in the state’s agricultural economy. http://valdostadailytimes.com/local/x947028489/Parolees-to-replace-migrants My home state makes me so proud. Valdosta, by the way, is in central-south Georgia, not that it matters. Also, y'all correct me if I'm wrong, but a "parolee" and a "probationer" aren't the same thing. Last I checked, if you've been released from prison early, you are on parole. You might also be on probation, but not all persons under probation are on parole. Many haven't even set foot in a prison at all, not to mention actually serving time. But the headline says "Parolee," while the sub-headline and article says "probationer." Which is it? edit: Somebody please explain to me how the hell this is going to help. I don't understand. Maybe I'm not getting something here.
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Jun 15, 2011 15:34
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foobyfooby posted:So, you guys know how Georgia has been trying its damndest to give Arizona a run for its money? Well, thanks to our recent racist law, which is very much like Arizona's, many migrant workers have left the state. So what should we do? All this produce has to be picked by someone. Here's Gov. Nathan Deal's carefully considered idea.
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Jun 15, 2011 16:09
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s0meb0dy0 posted:And why are people on probation paying ongoing fines? Because somebody has to pay for the drug tests and poo poo (and the state sure as gently caress isn't going to cover it)? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. edit: Probation here is expensive as gently caress. I knew a girl who got caught with like a gram of weed. She got a year of probation. She had to take an extra job to pay the fees, which totaled more than I made working in that same year. foobyfooby fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jun 15, 2011 |
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Jun 15, 2011 16:14
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Its not a terrible idea. The idea is to offer a person on parole work. For a honest (but low) wage. At least its work and it can help self esteem levels. One of the biggest hurdles of being on probation is finding a job. If you can't find a job then you have a higher chance of committing a crime (usually theft) to make ends meet.
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Jun 15, 2011 16:25
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foobyfooby posted:Because somebody has to pay for the drug tests and poo poo (and the state sure as gently caress isn't going to cover it)? He's probably like me and has never heard of people on probation being required to pay for the 'privilege'.
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Jun 15, 2011 16:35
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ratbert90 posted:Its not a terrible idea. The idea is to offer a person on parole work. For a honest (but low) wage. At least its work and it can help self esteem levels. One of the biggest hurdles of being on probation is finding a job. If you can't find a job then you have a higher chance of committing a crime (usually theft) to make ends meet.
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Jun 15, 2011 17:00
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s0meb0dy0 posted:It can't be that simple though. If it was just as simple as offering minimum wage to work there, well, the government doesn't need to be involved for that to happen. I'm guessing it's going to be below minimum wage, or coerce them to work there, or something. Exactly. If there wasn't something coercive and/or exploitative about it, nobody would be discussing using convict labor.
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Jun 15, 2011 17:04
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Pope Guilty posted:Exactly. If there wasn't something coercive and/or exploitative about it, nobody would be discussing using convict labor. Oh that I can completely agree with. I was just fantasizing about a good justice system.  it sounds more like a punishment to me. "Can't bootstrap your way felon? Go pick some corn for 4$ an hour!"
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Jun 15, 2011 17:08
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Gorilla Salad posted:He's probably like me and has never heard of people on probation being required to pay for the 'privilege'. It is a pretty big load of gently caress-you to probationers for sure. Being on probation (here) is stupid expensive, and there's a lot of people struggling to make ends meet as it is. Pope Guilty posted:Exactly. If there wasn't something coercive and/or exploitative about it, nobody would be discussing using convict labor. This is precisely why I don't care for the idea. Anyone can apply for this poo poo already. The state doesn't need to step in. If you're willing to do farm work, you'll get the job. I'm getting the feeling that this is going to turn into a compulsory thing for those on probation. My area of Georgia is awful about the whole "gently caress THEM THEY MUST'VE DONE SOMETHING TO DESERVE IT! IT'S PUNISHMENT, IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FUN" crap. The letters to the editor and Rant/Rave sections of the paper make me want to gently caress some poo poo up sometimes. The stupidity and ignorance is astounding. Not only that, if you're on probation and you have to check in and be available for random drug testing, you can't really be a migrant worker. You can't keep the terms of your probation if you're traveling all over the state to help harvest. If you're a farm worker, you've usually got to have your own transportation and arrange a place to sleep also, if the handful of farmworking jobs I considered applying for are typical. I'm not on probation and wasn't sure I would be able to do the travelling and such. I'd think someone who is on probation would have an even harder time with that.
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Jun 15, 2011 18:22
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The kind of agricultural work usually done by migrants (e.g. fruit picking) is generally arduous and very poorly compensated, which is why the labor has to imported from Central America in the first place. Americans do not want to pick peaches all day in the hot sun for $7.25 an hour (possibly less, depending on various exemptions), and they double do not want to relocate from Atlanta to rural central-south Georgia and live in primitive housing conditions for the privilege. With the migrants being chased out of the state, Georgia growers will have to offer competitive wages and consequently raise prices to cover their increased overhead, unless an alternate labor force can be located. I wouldn't be surprised if GA passed a law that said any unemployed parolee or probationer has to seek work (to "cover his fees") or else be violated back to prison, and then the only work supplied is agricultural labor.
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Jun 15, 2011 21:08
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I can't be the only one to think that this doesn't feel like some sort of effort to literally try and leak slavery back into the fields of Georgia. As we all know (from this very thread, no less), this is already pretty much being practiced, but this feels like a much more blatant and open advocacy of it given Georgia's racial prison disparity...
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Jun 16, 2011 05:56
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I can't really disbelieve anything I've read in the past regarding the U.S. Justice system at this point, but I watched The Last Word (link goes to the Netflix Instant Watch page) tonight. It's pretty unbelievable in that I can't believe a prosecutor would ignore or destroy the evidence so blatantly, and his defense team (in a capital loving case) wouldn't bother to defend him in any way . If you've followed this thread and don't know about Johnny F. Garrett, this movie is something else. That said, ignore the first 3 minutes of terrible graphics, and the last 3 minutes of him avenging his wrongful death from beyond the grave. It really is a serious clusterfuck of justice.
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Jun 16, 2011 06:23
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foobyfooby posted:Probation here is expensive as gently caress. I knew a girl who got caught with like a gram of weed. She got a year of probation. She had to take an extra job to pay the fees, which totaled more than I made working in that same year. Jesus Christ I would rather just kill myself. Then again, by Georgia's standards I should be locked up for several lifetimes so some Aryan Brotherhood rear end in a top hat would probably snuff me out before I could do it.
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Jun 16, 2011 06:23
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G. Hosafat posted:Jesus Christ I would rather just kill myself. Then again, by Georgia's standards I should be locked up for several lifetimes so some Aryan Brotherhood rear end in a top hat would probably snuff me out before I could do it. She said she nearly poo poo her pants when they told her about all the fees, and presented all the paperwork detailing precisely how hosed she was.
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Jun 16, 2011 10:57
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GENUINE CAT HERDER posted:I can't be the only one to think that this doesn't feel like some sort of effort to literally try and leak slavery back into the fields of Georgia. As we all know (from this very thread, no less), this is already pretty much being practiced, but this feels like a much more blatant and open advocacy of it given Georgia's racial prison disparity... You can drop the qualifiers. What you gotta realize is that you've been lied to in school. If you read the 13th for yourself you'll see that slavery never went away. The US has been a slavestate from its founding until today.
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Jun 16, 2011 11:27
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http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9NSA7SO0.htmquote:Ga. gov: Hire people on probation for farm work It doesn't look terrible, other than the potential for exploitation - these are people who are unable to find work. Additionally, as ex-cons who are still on probation, they're particularly vulnerable even in a good economy and especially disadvantaged in a recession. Hooking up with work is a good idea, and it does seem to be legal work which honestly pays the workers and meets the minimum wage. If I believed for a second that labor laws were going to be adequately enforced and that probationers would truly retain the ability to turn down or quit the job at will, this would seem like a fantastic system. There's also the question of coercion, since I doubt that they're taking these jobs completely willingly. The main problem, actually, is that it's a purely short-term program. It's incredibly difficult work which pays the workers bare sustenance wages, doesn't provide any benefits, and lasts for about a season. They go out and work for a couple months, making barely enough to meet their rents, and then the job ends and they're just as poor and unemployed as they were before this program started. If this was extended to hook ex-cons up with a greater variety of jobs, including some better ones, then I could really see this being a Good Thing - kind of a job board for convicts, which connects ex-prisoners with employers willing to hire them. It doesn't fix the core problem of employers discriminating against convicts, but it's better than the status quo. Honestly? This does look like it's very close to being a Good Thing, and could be turned into a fantastic program with a few changes and proper protection of the probationers' rights.
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Jun 18, 2011 19:02
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Main Paineframe posted:The main problem, actually, is that it's a purely short-term program. It's incredibly difficult work which pays the workers bare sustenance wages, doesn't provide any benefits, and lasts for about a season. They go out and work for a couple months, making barely enough to meet their rents, Rents? The rural communities that employ seasonal farmworkers don't have surplus housing for them to rent, because the units would stand empty for half the year. The workers are typically provided substandard and heavily overcrowded housing by their employer, sometimes paying him rent, sometimes not. To cut through the BS, Georgia is basically talking about forcing young men (probably disproportionately black) from urban areas like Atlanta to squat eight to a room in shacks in Klan Country, working 12-14 hours six days a week at $9/hr., with no overtime since farmworkers are exempt from overtime pay. I'm repeating myself, but there's a reason that the agricultural sector needs to continuously import impoverished and desperate Central Americans, and that's because by virtually every measure they're the worst jobs available. Low pay, long hours, no overtime, no stability, substandard housing, poor working conditions, etc. The UFW has some documents. quote:and then the job ends and they're just as poor and unemployed as they were before this program started. If this was extended to hook ex-cons up with a greater variety of jobs, including some better ones, then I could really see this being a Good Thing - kind of a job board for convicts, which connects ex-prisoners with employers willing to hire them. It doesn't fix the core problem of employers discriminating against convicts, but it's better than the status quo. What you're talking about would be a program designed to benefit the parolees and probationers, as opposed to the proposed Georgia plan, or to prison work programs already in place around the country, which are designed to exploit a captive work force for the benefit of their employers. Vocational training for prisoners and employment services for parolees are good ideas, and they would probably save more money than they cost (since it costs so much to imprison people, almost anything that reduces recidivism is likely to save money). Unfortunately those programs are usually the first thing eliminated in a budget crunch. Also: "I can't get a job and the state department of corrections is finding good jobs for evil criminal felons?"
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Jun 18, 2011 20:01
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Recently Peter Moskos, a law professor at John Jay college who has just recently released a book called In Defense of Flogging, which claims that the US prison system is so inhumane and a complete disaster that it would be better to reinstate corporal punishment http://chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/ quote:A crazy idea came from a dinner in New Orleans. I had cold-called (or whatever the e-mail equivalent is) a writer and his wife because I was a fan of his work and thought we had much in common. They were gracious enough to arrange a meal and treat me, without much justification, as a professional equal more than a stalker. The conversation turned to corporal punishment in public schools. They were amazed not that such a peculiarity existed in a city ripe with oddities, but that such illegal punishments were administered at the urging of and with the full consent of the students' parents. What are your guys' thoughts on this. On one hand getting the cat of nine tails seems more humane that the mental and physical punishment of an American prison, but I don't understand why he knows that the war on drugs and idiotic laws have created this, but does not want to address them.
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Jun 19, 2011 00:10
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Recently Peter Moskos, a law professor at John Jay college who has just recently released a book called In Defense of Flogging, which claims that the US prison system is so inhumane and a complete disaster that it would be better to reinstate corporal punishment Corporal punishment sounds worse but is sadly better than what we have. Reforming laws sounds like you have a bit of humanity left, and that's not going to fly with voters.
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Jun 19, 2011 00:55
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Recently Peter Moskos, a law professor at John Jay college who has just recently released a book called In Defense of Flogging, which claims that the US prison system is so inhumane and a complete disaster that it would be better to reinstate corporal punishment What is better for society: Guy does 120 days in jail, loses job Guy gets flogged on Friday night, recovers on Saturday and Sunday, goes to work on Monday sore. I'm not sure I like either option really, but at least flogging has less long term consequences.
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Jun 19, 2011 01:38
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At least if the US would torture physically as badly as they do mentally, it'd be a hell of a lot harder to hide and deny. I don't think that'd encourage any kind of change other than doing away with the physical torture, though. His whole idea is only addressing the symptoms rather than the root causes, so it's not really helping.
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Jun 19, 2011 01:45
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Recently Peter Moskos, a law professor at John Jay college who has just recently released a book called In Defense of Flogging, which claims that the US prison system is so inhumane and a complete disaster that it would be better to reinstate corporal punishment He really should have subtitled it "An Even Modester Proposal", apparently. Subtlety is dead.
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Jun 19, 2011 02:06
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Recently Peter Moskos, a law professor at John Jay college who has just recently released a book called In Defense of Flogging, which claims that the US prison system is so inhumane and a complete disaster that it would be better to reinstate corporal punishment I think it makes sense on a lot of levels. It satisfies the bloodlust of the tough on crime folks. It costs less/ takes money from the prison/industrial complex. It doesn't wreck people's lives or futures (floggings shouldn't count as convictions or priors except for subsequent floggings. Because it's more immediate and more physical it would have more chance of influencing future behavior without wrecking a person's future (people very rarely think about the future when about to commit a crime) To broaden the idea of flogging a bit, how about other, milder forms of shaming? Stocks, sandwich boards, etc.? Again, like flogging, done on a short term basis only - no offender lists, no special offender's driver's licenses, and so on. Similarly to nm, I'd limit it to less serious crimes, but I'd only exclude the old commonlaw felonies (except grand larceny - that'd still be floggable) It's got problems on a lot of levels, too. Physical punishment is hard to moderate properly and hard to administer without sliding into brutality. Other forms of shaming would be somewhat easier. In a society that no longer has shame, will shaming even work? Could a flogging ever be enough to overcome a lifetime of parental, societal and educational neglect/failure? (The real modest proposal would be to introduce flogging at the Jr. High school level) It would be another nail in the coffin of the Quaker penitentiary idea of punishment. However, that model is working at about 1% of its ideal, so maybe admitting failure and trying something different would have better outcomes. Unfortunately, I expect flogging would be unacceptable to the left (too icky) and to the right (not life ruining enough)
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Jun 19, 2011 05:20
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I wasn't joking. He is not actually in favor of flogging. The whole point is that the prison system is a nightmarish hellhole and that you should be upset about that.
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Jun 19, 2011 05:54
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joat mon posted:Stocks, sandwich boards, etc.? 
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Jun 19, 2011 06:13
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If I saw someone wearing a sign saying they stole from Walmart my first instinct would be to high five them
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Jun 19, 2011 06:23
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Pope Guilty posted:I wasn't joking. He is not actually in favor of flogging. The whole point is that the prison system is a nightmarish hellhole and that you should be upset about that. What does it say though that compared to the current system it is reasonable enough to be taken seriously? A Modest Proposal was never actually considered better than the status quo; this is. Scary stuff.
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Jun 19, 2011 09:20
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Torka posted:If I saw someone wearing a sign saying they stole from Walmart my first instinct would be to high five them Armed guards are posted to prevent this. They do this sandwich-board stunt at a Walmart near my house once in a while, next time I'll try to get a picture of the (private) security.
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Jun 19, 2011 10:12
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HidingFromGoro posted:Armed guards are posted to prevent this. So what, if you try to go up to them and be all "Hey, awesome, gently caress Wal-Mart" they'll what, shoot you?
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Jun 19, 2011 11:49
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joat mon posted:I think it makes sense on a lot of levels. In a lot of ways slavery was much better for black people than what we have today. A slave was a valuable piece of property, if you work him to death or underfeed him you're out a sizable investment. The same is not true of the "free market" or prison system. Unlike in prison a slave can have a family (to get more slaves of course). When a slaves work is done they could go down to the creek and swim or take a walk through the plantation, a prisoner is locked in a concrete cube when they aren't working. Etc... We should bring back slavery too!
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Jun 19, 2011 11:59
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Rutibex posted:In a lot of ways slavery was much better for black people than what we have today. A slave was a valuable piece of property, if you work him to death or underfeed him you're out a sizable investment. The same is not true of the "free market" or prison system. Unlike in prison a slave can have a family (to get more slaves of course). When a slaves work is done they could go down to the creek and swim or take a walk through the plantation, a prisoner is locked in a concrete cube when they aren't working. Etc... And yet when you talk about wage slavery, people jump down your throat for talking down the horrors of slavery.
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Jun 19, 2011 12:05
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