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MoFauxHawk posted:So I'm the only Northwestern 0L? It feels like we don't have a lot of people going to law school in the fall in this thread this year. I guess that's a good thing. People actually followed the strictest criteria so it's pretty much just me and the duck guy at Harvard. Or people just don't want to admit that they're going to law school. I vaguely remember that you got into Harvard am I wrong ? If that's right I guess you got money at Northwestern ? If so, how much ? Just curious. [Edit] Wow, full scholarship. Impressive ! Congrats. Macnigore fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jun 22, 2011 |
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Jun 22, 2011 06:36
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Macnigore posted:I vaguely remember that you got into Harvard am I wrong ? If that's right I guess you got money at Northwestern ? If so, how much ? Just curious.
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Jun 22, 2011 06:41
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 chat:Penguins Like Pies posted:Horray Canadian articling goon! Mostly research/advisory opinion stuff and drafting various legal instruments, I suspect, though I know I'll be involved in the occasional actual regulatory hearing and whatever administrative litigation we get stuck in. Or maybe someone will Charter-challenge us again! CmdrSmirnoff posted:Congrats! Do they do any hireback? They only hire one articling student a year, and there actually seems a decent chance at hireback if there are positions open - which given the party in power is not necessarily a sure thing! One of my old classmates is articling there this year, I haven't heard if she's staying on yet (I know she wants to) but I think she put in a good word for me alongside the rest of my references. CmdrSmirnoff posted:I found out today that one of my friends is articling for $350/week. That comes out to less than minimum wage assuming a 40 hour work week.  At this rate I'm going to have to revise my forecast of the Canadian legal market closer to "don't go no jobs die alone".Any luck for you two?
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Jun 22, 2011 07:01
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What is this "articling" thing? Never heard of it (in my rampant US centricism).
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Jun 22, 2011 07:38
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Dallan Invictus posted:Mostly research/advisory opinion stuff and drafting various legal instruments, I suspect, though I know I'll be involved in the occasional actual regulatory hearing and whatever administrative litigation we get stuck in. Or maybe someone will Charter-challenge us again! In an interview with a crim defence firm, I got asked about my constitution mark. I responded with my usual "studied for a closed book exam the way one would study for an open book example" and then ended it with "But it's not like we learned about s. 7-14 of the Charter anyways".  They chose my friend (who had better marks) over me. Dallan Invictus posted:Any luck for you two? CmdrSmirnoff posted:I found out today that one of my friends is articling for $350/week. That comes out to less than minimum wage assuming a 40 hour work week. Kalman posted:What is this "articling" thing? Never heard of it (in my rampant US centricism).
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Jun 22, 2011 13:13
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nic olas posted:So what's a better choice, Davis or Hastings? Hastings is going to be 10k cheaper because of a grant. Where I live isn't a priority since both have their upsides/downside. Are the academics any different for either school? I know that I shouldn't care too much about rankings but Davis has been doing pretty well. Anyone going to either school? First, I suggest you treat yourself to a nice masturbation and flesh out this "location matters/doesn't matter" dilemma because I'm getting mixed signals from your posts. If location matters, Hastings all the way, especially with the tuition break. My friends from Hasting generally enjoy their class time as much as the next law student, but a lot seem more content with life overall because they have a badass city to run around in. This is not at all the case at Davis, which has a rep for a bit of a drinking culture because there isn't poo poo else to do there. Now as for jobs. If you want to do PI in the Bay, and your dead set on going this year and not reapplying to get into one of the two big NorCal schools, I still say Hastings. Your angle depends a bit on doing good clinics and volunteer work while in law school to get stuff on the resume. This in addition to killer grades, journal etc. etc. Realize now however (as some have alluded to here) that PI in the Bay is coveted and very hard to get. Overall if you're just trying to get any job and don't care much about where you live or where the job is, Davis. Otherwise, my vote is Hastings. Really my vote is sit out a year and take LSAT again - Cali has so many law schools, some of which are decent for their region, which makes the location argument relevant in my opinion. E: Incidentally MFH, there are a few Northwestern folks in SD this summer being SAs. Maybe get with them if you're interested in the area since they scored gigs without strong ties back here - that's unusual for this city. sigmachiev fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jun 22, 2011 |
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Jun 22, 2011 14:58
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Penguins Like Pies posted:That really takes articling being slave labour to a whole new level. And I thought it was ridiculous that my friend is making less money summering at a civil firm than when I was working for my school's non-profit student clinic. What type of firm is it? It's a small firm or solo specializing in mentally ill clients and mental health work. I've got an interview tomorrow for a $500/week crim defence gig. It's a loving third of what the Bay St. crew is making, and their firms paid all of their bar costs, too.
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Jun 22, 2011 15:05
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Thank you for all the law school advice, everybody (and thank you, Macnigore). This is what I was hoping would happen, it's been very helpful. In return you can all have positions in my presidential campaign. I forgot about the NYU guy. I think he has a full panda scholarship. So that's two T14 no-debters and a Harvard man. So far everybody would get the green light from BigHead. I think everyone else is just too scared of being torn apart by the thread though. Edit: Thanks, Sigma. I've only been to SD once and SF's weather fits me better, but even general advice about how to get a job in a city you don't have ties to would probably be useful. MoFauxHawk fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jun 22, 2011 |
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Jun 22, 2011 15:13
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Congrats on your offer, PLP, that's a load off your back I'm sure. Crim defense? I forgot what your summer firm does. Good luck on your interview, Smirnoff, even though the pay looks lovely. :/ Penguins Like Pies posted:Yay! Charter challenges! For how crappy I did in constitution, I surprisingly think Charter challenges are fun. I'm waiting for the ONCA's judgment on whether prostitution laws violate s. 7. Constitutional Law was the first law school exam I ever took, and boy did it show on the transcript.  I think everybody is watching that case, though, even though we all know it'll end up at the SCC. But I love Charter challenges too: s. 1 means they're basically All Policy Arguments All The Time and I'm the kind of law student who really should have taken an MPP instead.quote:In an interview with a crim defence firm, I got asked about my constitution mark. I responded with my usual "studied for a closed book exam the way one would study for an open book example" and then ended it with "But it's not like we learned about s. 7-14 of the Charter anyways". Heh, I got asked about my bad marks too - it helped that two of the three worst ones were in Contracts and Corporations, I guess, so I was able to tell the truth "Because I don't really care about those areas of law" - and was able to counterbalance it with a bunch of glowing marks and references saying "but he does really care about THESE areas of law and this is what he can do when he cares". quote:but long story short, it's the year of practical experience you get after law school while you take your bar courses. You become a fancy "student-at-law". I've compared it to a residency for med school (except it's after we get our degree) to non-law people. This is a Good Answer and I use that analogy all the time myself.
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Jun 22, 2011 15:23
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nm posted:No one should want to go to law school. Hahaha what were you drinking last night bud? I know a drunkposting nm when I see a drunkposting nm. Davis/Hastings guy: I went to Davis, and I agree 100% with what sigmachiev said. srsly fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jun 22, 2011 |
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Jun 22, 2011 15:31
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MoFauxHawk posted:Thank you for all the law school advice, everybody (and thank you, Macnigore). This is what I was hoping would happen, it's been very helpful. In return you can all have positions in my presidential campaign. Where are you living in the fall? Let's get drinks sometime, no homo. Or, well, "the northwestern difference" etc. EDIT: How important are 1L/2L summer positions for public interest careers? Obviously it's not the same summer-hire thing that permeates firm work, but am I going to get panda cred for previous panda work, or do they care? I'm at a super public-interesty thing now but I've gotten conflicting reviews on how important "loyalty" is for hiring. Direwolf fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jun 22, 2011 |
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Jun 22, 2011 15:50
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Direwolf posted:Where are you living in the fall? Let's get drinks sometime, no homo. Or, well, "the northwestern difference" etc. McClurg. Sounds good, homo or no. ^_>^ (no homo)
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Jun 22, 2011 16:54
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Penguins Like Pies posted:I've compared it to a residency for med school (except it's after we get our degree) to non-law people. Residency is after MDs get their degrees, too.
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Jun 22, 2011 17:16
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http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?print=trueTaibbi posted:Young Michele found Jesus at age 16, not long before she went away to Winona State University and met a doltish, like-minded believer named Marcus Bachmann. After finishing college, the two committed young Christians moved to Oklahoma, where Michele entered one of the most ridiculous learning institutions in the Western Hemisphere, a sort of highway rest area with legal accreditation called the O.W. Coburn School of Law; Michele was a member of its inaugural class in 1979. Don't go, die alone, unless you go to Regent, in which case ride the wave into power and prosperity
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Jun 22, 2011 18:16
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It looks like I might have an offer to work as a public defender. Is there anyone here who can offer me advice about starting out in this position? I think there is a public defender or two lurking around here, but I forget.
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Jun 22, 2011 19:07
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MoFauxHawk posted:Thank you for all the law school advice, everybody (and thank you, Macnigore). This is what I was hoping would happen, it's been very helpful. In return you can all have positions in my presidential campaign. Seconded the thanks for the advice. I'm really glad there is consensus that the summer should be spent not reading E & E's. I'm not going to Harvard, I'm signing promissory notes and poo poo, and I'm not too scared of being torn apart by thread. I'm not worried, my loans will be forgiven in case of permanent and total disability.
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Jun 22, 2011 19:15
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Thoras Hammer posted:It looks like I might have an offer to work as a public defender. Is there anyone here who can offer me advice about starting out in this position? I think there is a public defender or two lurking around here, but I forget. I was a PD for a year. nm has worked as a PD for a while. Take the job. It's a job. And a hella fun one at that. Be super nice to everybody. That means not just your coworkers and clients (duh) but also all the DAs and court staff. Even when they are loving your clients over. It will pay off and also make your job more bearable. The DA's and court staff are in essence your coworkers as well. Don't be afraid to ask for help around the office. Don't be afraid to stop court and say "I'm sorry but I'm gonna need some help on this one." Get used to making a record. Of everything. A big part of your job is creating appellate issues. Judges love to do poo poo off the record. It's your job to put it on the record afterwards. Know your facts. Know the law. File lots and lots of motions. Make lots of oral motions.
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Jun 22, 2011 19:36
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Petey posted:http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?print=true Jesus, Matt, tell us how you really feel.
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Jun 22, 2011 19:46
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Thoras Hammer posted:It looks like I might have an offer to work as a public defender. Is there anyone here who can offer me advice about starting out in this position? I think there is a public defender or two lurking around here, but I forget. Working legal aid owns. Tons of time in court, fun & interesting characters, never slow or boring. You develop good case & information management skills really fast or spend a lot of your time getting publicly shamed CmdrSmirnoff posted:It's a small firm or solo specializing in mentally ill clients and mental health work. Brutal. Hopefully you like it enough to avoid thinking too much about your hourly wage hypocrite lecteur fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jun 22, 2011 |
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Jun 22, 2011 20:05
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srsly posted:I was a PD for a year. nm has worked as a PD for a while. If you get an offer take it, but assume you won't last because PD jobs are volatile as poo poo. I'm a bit bitter right now and getting laid off in 4 weeks.
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Jun 22, 2011 21:03
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srsly posted:I was a PD for a year. nm has worked as a PD for a while. Thanks! I'm still in shock that I may have any kind of offer of a legal job and can use all the advice I can get. Sorry nm 
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Jun 22, 2011 21:04
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Thoras Hammer posted:Thanks! I'm still in shock that I may have any kind of offer of a legal job and can use all the advice I can get. What state?
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Jun 22, 2011 21:18
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I've had three rounds of interviews with a biglaw firm for a staff attorney position, I'm the only person they are considering for the position, and I am waiting to get the offer from the HR department so I can find out the start date and salary and whatnot. I know that my soon-to-be supervising partner sent an email to the HR people to get the process started but it's been a week and I've heard nothing. This wait is killing me. It is also driving my wife nuts. (especially because this job is in a city two hours away and we have to figure out our moving plans)
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Jun 22, 2011 21:41
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Thoras Hammer posted:It looks like I might have an offer to work as a public defender. Is there anyone here who can offer me advice about starting out in this position? I think there is a public defender or two lurking around here, but I forget. srsly pretty much nailed it. Don't condescend to the court staff or your clients. All that JD means is that you're more in debt than they are and that you have greater responsibilities. Your clients are not 'those people.' They are you - just without all the breaks you've gotten in your life. If you find yourself thinking of your clients, 'God, I hate these people...' please quit, for their sake and for yours. For many of your clients, their lives have totally gone to poo poo and they're scared about what the arbitrary, unknowable machine is going to do to them. Keep them informed and answer their questions. At first, you won't know the answers. Don't bullshit them, tell you don't know but you'll find out. Then find out and tell them. Your other clients will know the score, will know what a decent plea bargain is, and will share the local scuttlebutt and best meth recipes with you while you fill out the plea paperwork. PD offices have the greatest institutional knowledge of crim law in a particular jurisdiction. Make use of that knowledge. Ask lots of questions, ask other attorneys to take a look at a case to see if you missed anything (you did, no matter how long you've been doing it), ask 'why?' a lot. Watch other attorneys in court - not just trials, but arraignments and pleas and probation revocation hearings and preliminary hearings. Ask other attorneys if you can second-seat them in their trials. You'll probably get to do some voir dire and some easier witnesses. Even if you just sit there and help keep the client relaxed and engaged, you will learn so much more than just watching from the gallery. Spend some time drinking with your co-workers, but don't become an alcoholic.
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Jun 22, 2011 22:09
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joat mon posted:srsly pretty much nailed it. quote:Your clients are not 'those people.' They are you - just without all the breaks you've gotten in your life.
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Jun 22, 2011 22:35
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If you're sayin you don't occasionally shake your head and think "man what the gently caress was going through his head honestly" you're a liaaaar
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Jun 22, 2011 22:51
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hypocrite lecteur posted:If you're sayin you don't occasionally shake your head and think "man what the gently caress was going through his head honestly" you're a liaaaar Sometimes I'll shake my head and ask my client the same thing to his face, in pretty much the same words. No, what I was trying to convey is the need for a mindset that allows you to relate to clients as people, rather than relating to them as 'other' Maybe I can dig myself deeper by contrasting it by describing a prevalent DA mindset. To them, defendants and victims are 'other' - poor people, dark people, i.e., not 'my' people. This kind of DA will have no empathy for defendants or victims because he or she can never see themselves in the other's shoes. The other might as well be from another planet. And because that DA is a better class of people and know it and cannot conceive of it being otherwise, they condescend to everyone not of their class. Saying "Man, what the gently caress was going through your head, honestly" with a 'you are other' mindset may start a fight - saying it to a client you already know and already knows you have a 'you are people' mindset will break the ice and you can get down to the business of helping them out.
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Jun 23, 2011 00:21
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joat mon posted:Maybe I can dig myself deeper by contrasting it by describing a prevalent DA mindset. To them, defendants and victims are 'other' - poor people, dark people, i.e., not 'my' people. This kind of DA will have no empathy for defendants or victims because he or she can never see themselves in the other's shoes. The other might as well be from another planet. And because that DA is a better class of people and know it and cannot conceive of it being otherwise, they condescend to everyone not of their class.
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Jun 23, 2011 00:27
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nm posted:What state? Wisconsin, rural Wisconsin. I've really liked working with clients who are in trouble with the law in the past, I will definitely try to be as nice as I can to clients and court officials. I also really do not have an ego at all, and I hope that comes across too. Thoras Hammer fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jun 23, 2011 |
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Jun 23, 2011 00:49
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Thoras Hammer posted:Wisconsin, rural Wisconsin. I've really liked working with clients who are in trouble with the law in the past, I will definitely try to be as nice as I can to clients and court officials. I also really do not have an ego at all, and I hope that comes across too. Also, a trial attorney should have an ego. Develop one.
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Jun 23, 2011 00:54
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Dallan Invictus posted:Crim defense? I forgot what your summer firm does. HiddenReplaced posted:Residency is after MDs get their degrees, too. I'm so ignorant. It makes a lot more sense now that I think about my friends who are residents. And Smirnoff, good luck! Do small firms in the Toronto area really pay that poorly for articles?
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Jun 23, 2011 02:19
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Starting law school in the fall in Ontario. Any Canadian law students have any advice?
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Jun 23, 2011 02:25
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Penguins Like Pies posted:And Smirnoff, good luck! Do small firms in the Toronto area really pay that poorly for articles? Yep! One advertisement even plainly stated that it pays so poorly you need to have a very supportive partner. quote:Starting law school in the fall in Ontario. Any Canadian law students have any advice? You gots to be more specific than that.
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Jun 23, 2011 02:41
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Holy poo poo, I got median, 50th percentile. This isn't a joke (edit: I mean like the threads I was in on the other forums.) I was so sick and had had horrible sleeps leading up to the tests because of a sinus infection and medications for it and my alcoholism was pretty bad; I guess the adrenaline rush I got was enough and I'm so happy I did this well. I really thought I wouldn't be this visibly happy even if I did this well. I'm gonna have champagne for starters and then I'm gonna drink the rest of my absinthe with friends and let my hallucination tell me how best to help the world with this rank, although absinthe has never made me hallucinate before. I'm so happy. With my beautiful blue eyes and blond hair I could get into Covington, my goal firm, even I accidentally stare at the hiring partner's titties. I only have to consider Skadden if they let me split. Now I get to focus on improving my pickup lines and working on my dark ages fantasy novel and mixology and other ventures in order to make me likable enough to get a couple of South African chicks to rock out. I am so happy. Thanks for all your help, you guys, and congratulations to everybody else on their grades.
Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jun 23, 2011 |
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Jun 23, 2011 02:45
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nm posted:Also, a trial attorney should have an ego. Develop one. Later in my career, when people ask me "when did you know you'd made the right choice of legal fields," I'll say it's this moment. The moment when I read this post.
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Jun 23, 2011 03:05
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BEARSLOOKOUT fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Jun 23, 2011 03:19
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BEARSLOOKOUT posted:Sorry, that did come off pretty ambiguous. It looks like I'm going to Windsor if I don't see any waitlist movement in my favor at other schools. I just meant in terms of studying, exam prep. Important things anyone knows now that they wish they knew when starting out. As far as that goes, it's all the same as the advice given to the Americans in this thread (like in the OP). Keep us posted w/r/t Windsor, I don't know anyone who went there.
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Jun 23, 2011 03:26
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Thoras Hammer posted:It looks like I might have an offer to work as a public defender. Is there anyone here who can offer me advice about starting out in this position? I think there is a public defender or two lurking around here, but I forget. Wear rubber-soled shoes to jail visits because they pee on the floor there.
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Jun 23, 2011 03:42
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Solomon Grundy posted:Wear rubber-soled shoes to jail visits because they pee on the floor there. Also, always sit closest to the door of the interview room.
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Jun 23, 2011 03:52
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srsly posted:I was a PD for a year. nm has worked as a PD for a while. Other pieces of advice: -In a rural area, your office will probably be close to the DA's office. It may seem safer/cleaner/easier to email the DA about a case, but I find I get better deals for my clients if I just stop by the DA's office and ask if they're available to talk about X case. But do get the offer in writing afterwards, of course. -Also in a rural area, you will run into clients outside the office. If there are other people around, be careful not to vocally acknowledge your client unless they talk to you first. It sounds odd considering the advice to be able to relate to clients, but you really do risk embarrassing them by revealing they are involved in a criminal case. -This is true for any kind of lawyer, but I think it's especially important for PDs: answer your phone and return messages promptly, even if you don't have any new information for your client. As long as you are able to indicate that you remember their case and anything that has happened (or hasn't happened that you expected to happen) since the last time you spoke, you're good.
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Jun 23, 2011 04:46
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