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That's pretty awesome; shame I missed it.  Question though--anyone know what she means by: '2. Loo training is magical a. Train in the bathroom. b. Minimize distractions, maximize focus on you.' Does she mean using your bathroom to train, initially, because of the lack of distractions? I've never heard of using a bathroom as a place to train, so that's a little strange for me (I've mostly heard using the place that your dog spends the most time/is most familiar with).
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Jun 23, 2011 21:39
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Fraction posted:That's pretty awesome; shame I missed it. That's exactly what she means. She uses the bathroom a lot when training puppies. I've never personally used it, but didn't have trouble ensuring all focus was on me during brief training sessions.
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Jun 23, 2011 21:44
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a life less posted:That's exactly what she means. She uses the bathroom a lot when training puppies. I've never personally used it, but didn't have trouble ensuring all focus was on me during brief training sessions. that's a good idea. I can't get my dude to focus on me for more than 2-3 commands. He follows the treat to a sit position but definitely gets distracted by all sorts of stuff and so I feel like I can't do enough repititions for him to really get what we're doing!
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Jun 23, 2011 21:50
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a life less posted:That's exactly what she means. She uses the bathroom a lot when training puppies. I've never personally used it, but didn't have trouble ensuring all focus was on me during brief training sessions. I suppose it'd make sense to use toilet breaks for the handler as two or so minute training spurts. I'm totally going to do that tomorrow, since Lola follows me to the toilet anyway. Oh, and I have another question (not related to the webinar): A week or so ago, whilst me and Lola were walking on the park with my friend and her dog (we'd just leashed the dogs up to go home), Lola saw a bird. We've been doing a thing where she looks at birds (which she is really prey-drivey towards, same with squirrels), looks at me for a click/treat, and then holds eye contact with me until I let go of her leash and tell her to GO GET IT. She sped off after the bird, turned as soon as I called her (about a metre from the bird, just as it took off) and sped back to me, and waited for me to collect her leash. My friend was bemused, and I explained that it was using the Premack Principle to reinforce her attention around Exciting Prey Things. Is that actually right though, or have I misunderstood PP? My plan is to increase the time that she watches me, and phase out the click/treat (just to stop her from instantly gunning for the bird - sometimes there's one treat, sometimes two, before she is released) so that her reward for being good is to charge the bird.
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Jun 23, 2011 21:51
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Just FYI, for anyone who missed the webinar or had choppy signals or whatever, I just got an email from the web team - quote:
So, there'll probably be the whole video up and about floating around the internet sometime soon!
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Jun 23, 2011 22:03
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Fraction posted:Oh, and I have another question (not related to the webinar): It sounds like you're doing it correctly. Here's a bit more info on using distractions as rewards: quote:LINKING THE REINFORCEMENT OF A HIGH DISTRACTION TO YOU!
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Jun 23, 2011 22:34
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a life less posted:So basically, I would manage him via a long line. Use it as a failsafe, So I tried your advice this morning and it went really well. The only thing I'm nervous about is when he doesn't come immediately and I have to give him a little tug. Especially when there is a little bit of a pause between when he decides "I'm not going to come" and when I can give him the "I think you will" tug. Is that weakening the recall? Or is it just ensuring that he comes back, and still enforcing it. I'm just so nervous about poisoning the cue... The "off course" thing as Pat Miller explains it in the book is basically just doing off when the dog is on the leash. You set up piles of treats and say "off" and when the puppy starts to ignore it, click and reward with a better treat.
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Jun 24, 2011 12:53
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Newbsylberry posted:So I tried your advice this morning and it went really well. The only thing I'm nervous about is when he doesn't come immediately and I have to give him a little tug. Especially when there is a little bit of a pause between when he decides "I'm not going to come" and when I can give him the "I think you will" tug. Is that weakening the recall? Or is it just ensuring that he comes back, and still enforcing it. I'm just so nervous about poisoning the cue... I feel like the long line should only be used in emergencies. If you give him too much freedom and then he chooses not to come you've effectively set him up to fail, and that's the last thing we want to do with our dogs. Like, if you think he'll get distracted if he wanders 10 feet away, keep him closer than that and put extra effort into being fun and engaging so he wants to pay more attention to you than the environment. The long line is to give him the feeling of independence while giving you some security, but it really should only be used as a last resort. Too much reliance on a long line will result in you compelling your dog to come to you, but what you want is for your dog to choose to come to you because he wants to, every single time. Instead of tugging on the leash, maybe start running in the opposite direction, or pull out a tug toy or something. Put extra effort into making yourself super fun and exciting. Try to always make your puppy want to come to you instead. You might have to start recall training in a less exciting environment than the park so you can make sure you're the most appealing option in his environment. Regarding your "off" cue, that's roughly how we teach it at my school. However I prefer an implicit "don't touch food I've not given you" with dogs, and I wish I had an even better one with my dog. The core of that is Its Yer Choice games, which we've talked about lots in this thread. Here's a video to get you started. I prefer IYC to an off or leave-it command because there will be times when the dog sees something potentially tasty before you do, and I would rather not have to be reactive when the dog lunges or begins pulling. But that's not to say that Miller's protocol is a bad idea. I think having both an implicit leave-it, as well as a command will come in handy in the future. You can work both "off" and IYC into your recall games. Once you've built the foundation and the dog understands, "if I control myself I get something better in the end" you'll be able to more easily apply it to a fragrant patch of ground at the park, or someone's discarded sandwich.
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Jun 24, 2011 13:26
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a life less posted:Thanks! I had completely misinterpreted your advice from yesterday and was making it harder for him than it's been in the past. Like letting him get a bit distracted and then calling him, you know, so "I could show him we come even when we're distracted." Luckily he came most of the time (only failed twice), without any tugging. I feel like a maroon, no wonder his enthusiasm was waning towards the end. Hopefully I didn't do too much damage. I think I just need to be patient and stay to the path I was on. Only using the cue when he's already moving towards me, having him chase me around, giving him amazing treats when he does come, and rewarding him when he chooses to walk next to me off-leash. The biggest difference is I'll keep him closer so he's more inclined to come towards me, especially around distractions.
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Jun 24, 2011 14:21
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moechae posted:Just FYI, for anyone who missed the webinar or had choppy signals or whatever, I just got an email from the web team - There may or may not be a recording of the streamed version of the 8:30 show that gets linked later this weekend in this thread.
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Jun 24, 2011 14:25
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MrFurious posted:There may or may not be a recording of the streamed version of the 8:30 show that gets linked later this weekend in this thread. http://www.puppypeaks.com/fe/12953-live-webinar-june-23rd-830pm It's posted 'til midnight tonight. Edit: I should add, I think you need to wait for the whole thing to load before you press play. a life less fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jun 24, 2011 |
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Jun 24, 2011 21:40
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A life less, I hope you don't mind me asking this in this thread  but I was just wondering - if you get additional dogs to Cohen in the future, do you think you'll always go for herding breeds? You seem to really enjoy training to a high standard, which means that super sharp and focused aussies and bcs would make perfect sense - but you also seem to enjoy the challenge of training, and figuring out techniques that are applicable to dogdom at large - which just makes me wonder if you'd ever pick something traditionally viewed as difficult to train to a high standard (like, I dunno, a bloodhound or something!) just for the sheer challenge of it?
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Jun 24, 2011 21:52
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What's a good book out there that gives you the basics in training a dog to do commands/tricks? Like I'm coming up with all these questions as I try to bluff my way through it all, do I focus on one new trick at a time or throw in a few so that he can hear the different words, how many repetitions before not treating every single time, how do I go about getting him to stand up after I've got him in a "down" so we can try again, etc etc. I've been trolling Youtube videos but they all seem to start off with a dog who already knows how to do the tricks so it's not really a good learning experience.
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Jun 25, 2011 06:07
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Susan Garrett posted:The raw truth Dammit, that really should have been the first item of business, not just the bottom line. Regarding start-to-finish books, I bought this one, How To Teach A New Dog Old Tricks by Ian Dunbar. It's very thorough and Point A to Point B, although the dorky colloquialisms throughout it can be pretty distracting sometimes. It isn't based on clicker training, but you could integrate clicker techniques pretty easily (I did). http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?id=DTB190EBK As to youtube videos, to me there are three A+ sources: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup (mentioned and linked in the OP) http://www.youtube.com/user/zsianz1 http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperBark1#p/u (Dr. Sophia Yin)
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Jun 25, 2011 07:12
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notsoape posted:A life less, I hope you don't mind me asking this in this thread If I had my way, I would own a poo poo tonne of Border Collies, Aussies, Tollers, Ridgebacks, Belgians, (or some reasonable shelter mutt facsimile) etc with which to train to a competitive level and run agility. I don't know if it's the challenge that so much inspires me, but the results. I can put energy into my dog, and I can actually see a direct correlation between that and what I get out of a dog. There's just something about that working relationship you build with one of these dogs, where you both sync with each other and can communicate on a nonverbal level. I wouldn't mind testing my capabilities with a breed like a Husky, a Greyhound, or maybe a cute little lurcher-esque thing like your little girl. But I think my heart is with the sharp handler-focused breeds. My boyfriend has a Chihuahua, and he and I have been working on laying the groundwork for future training with her recently. It's been a wake up call trying to figure out how to motivate this dog who is too tiny (and overweight) to eat much, and doesn't give two shits about you unless you're waving food in front of her face. It's been fun, but it's made me realize how easy I have it with Cohen. I really look forward to whipping this Chi into shape -- maybe I'll slap some beginner Obedience or Rally titles on her, but it's just not the same. My boyfriend would kill me if I brought home another Cohen-esque dog. He thinks she's too much of a handful. He doesn't quite understand the difference between competing with a BC vs with a Maltese. So I wouldn't be surprised if we compromise and find less intense dogs in the future. But long story short, my I'll always be crazy for the herders. drat Bananas posted:What's a good book out there that gives you the basics in training a dog to do commands/tricks? Like I'm coming up with all these questions as I try to bluff my way through it all, do I focus on one new trick at a time or throw in a few so that he can hear the different words, how many repetitions before not treating every single time, how do I go about getting him to stand up after I've got him in a "down" so we can try again, etc etc. I've been trolling Youtube videos but they all seem to start off with a dog who already knows how to do the tricks so it's not really a good learning experience. Flesh Forge has some good book recommendations. As far as focusing on one trick at a time, or more, it's really up to you and your dog. I tend to like to have at least two on the go, and think that most dogs should have at least 3-4 staple tricks that you can cycle through to get their braingears working. When you're working on something new, always take breaks to reduce stress (learning is intrinsically stressful). I often go back to well known tricks, or fun ones (like high five!) when I suspect Cohen is getting overwhelmed or bored. Short and sweet is always better than long and tedious. On average it takes 250 repetitions before you've created a habit. So I would plan to treat at least 250 times during the learning process. Then when it becomes more habitual you can reduce it to a variable rate of reinforcement. As in, sometimes you'll treat for a sit, sometimes you'll wait for 2-3 behaviours, sometimes 5, then back to 2... Do you want a formal stand? Or do you want to end the behaviour? I use my "break" command to end the behaviour. You can create a break/all done command by either pretending to move and psyching the dog out, and if he gets up to follow you, mark with a yes and reward with a treat. Or you can toss a treat and say break when he gets up to go get it. Even now I'll still reward for an enthusiastic break, so Cohen learns that even if she's more comfortable laying down she'll find it more rewarding to get up and reset her position. Having a cue to mark the end of a duration behaviour is important, and it's something I see clients overlook/disregard much too often.
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Jun 25, 2011 15:40
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a life less, out of curiousity do you have any videos of a standard training session with Cohen? I'm always curious as to 'how' other handlers work with their dogs, and since none of my friends are that concerned with training (I actually annoy them babbling on about it  ) I only really have what I've seen on things like It's Me Or the Dog to compare with.Actually, I'd love to see anyone's videos of a general training session! I find training fascinating.
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Jun 25, 2011 16:13
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Fraction posted:a life less, out of curiousity do you have any videos of a standard training session with Cohen? I'm always curious as to 'how' other handlers work with their dogs, and since none of my friends are that concerned with training (I actually annoy them babbling on about it I don't really have anything showing any obedience drills, but I do have some trick training sessions recorded. The dish grab video is unedited, so it'll probably give you a better idea than some of the others (it's way too long though -- that session should have been broken into 2-3). I guess these can illustrate how I'll increase criteria as she progresses. Dish grab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE9FzkGouA8 Be people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdpZUk7P9UM Open/close doors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGC6qLmqM3c Inch backwards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_psQqmjHeJs Handstand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnC6r-Vkv9M
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Jun 25, 2011 16:50
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Fraction posted:Actually, I'd love to see anyone's videos of a general training session! I find training fascinating. Seriously, watch all those videos collected in the three links I gave earlier (Kikopup, zsianz1, and Dr. Yin), there's like a hundred of them and they're all very informative. Some of them are just trick demonstrations but a lot of them are very practical and useful.
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Jun 25, 2011 17:56
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Okay I need some major help here. I work at a dog boarding kennel/daycare/groomer. The staff came together and decided to use all our tip money to rescue dogs. This is great and all, but they rescued a dog that we really should NOT have rescued, and now no one is working with the dog and he is just going more and more downhill. Bruiser is a 4-6 year old min pin that was found wandering around. He was an intact male (JUST got neutered), has a bum leg that he hobbles around with (previous injury- healed weirdly) and is up to date on shots and all that jazz. Problem is that he gets really really snappy when stressed out. This means when he is with a bunch of dogs, when he is picked up, and worst of all, when you put a leash on him. Here is a video I took to demonstrate this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii5Mqv7nvl4 The reason why they got him was because he was about to get euthanized because he kept trying to bite shelter staff and they didn't have time/space/resources etc to work with him. Well, neither do we. But I have decided instead of being bitter and angry at everyone for getting this dog and letting him cause poo poo at work (attacking people, dogs, etc) I will try to work with him and get him to a point where MAYBE a rescue can take him in. OH! and to add to the fun, we somehow got ahold of his previous owners and they didn't want him back. However, they informed us that he has a possible seizure disorder. Yeah, we really got in over our heads here. What do you guys think? Do I have a chance of working with this dog? I figured I could start with the leash walking initially since that is the biggest problem. Is this a matter of just giving him super tasty treats when hes on the leash and not freaking out and start building up to walking?
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Jun 25, 2011 23:24
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cryingscarf posted:Okay I need some major help here. That behavior looks a lot like what my dog does when she is pushed over threshold. She will attack her leash or anything else that is put directly in front of her face. Now I haven't seen the other behavior of this dog, but in that video, the dog is obviously being provoked by being pulled by the leash in a stressful situation. Before someone started pulling on him, he was doing okay, so it looks to me like severe leash reactivity and probably other general anxiety problems. I think if you are interested in helping this dog, it is worth the effort to try. You'll need to desensitize Bruiser to the leash in general first, teach him to walk on a loose leash and come when called, and then desensitize him to being pulled. Obviously it's preferable to never have to use the leash to pull the dog away from something, but it will unfortunately be necessary with a reactive dog and so it shouldn't be a trigger for them (I am working on this with my own dog). Then you can started adding in more elements (or work on them separately in an off-leash situation) like strangers and other dogs. Obviously putting him a room full of dogs that stress him out is going way too fast. Though honestly, I thought this body language looked pretty good right up until someone started pulling. I've seen (and own) dogs that have worse reactions than that, so there's definitely hope for Bruiser if you're willing to put in some time and effort.
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Jun 26, 2011 00:14
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Kiri koli posted:That behavior looks a lot like what my dog does when she is pushed over threshold. She will attack her leash or anything else that is put directly in front of her face. Now I haven't seen the other behavior of this dog, but in that video, the dog is obviously being provoked by being pulled by the leash in a stressful situation. Before someone started pulling on him, he was doing okay, so it looks to me like severe leash reactivity and probably other general anxiety problems. We were trying to get him to go outside to go potty when I took that video. There are so many times during the day that we cannot take him outside at all. We can't leash walk him and we can't pick him up. It really sucks. I asked my coworker to try to get him to do it again so that I could take a video so I could post it in this thread. We don't purposely get him to go off like that. I honestly think that it was a stupid move for us to get this dog because a building full of dogs really isn't well equipped for a dog with his issues. I would have much preferred a dog that was timid around people but loved dogs that could come out of their shell. But I will do everything I can to help out the little Bruiser-brat. The person who decided to pick up this dog hasn't done any work with him, and no one else wants to. At this pace he will just become a ~*Kennel dog*~ and he will be miserable.
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Jun 26, 2011 00:54
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cryingscarf posted:Okay I need some major help here. Whooboy. You guys may have gotten yourselves in over your heads here. But with that said, I think that just about any dog can be rehabilitated, barring those with medically based issues. I know someone who took a dog very much worse than Bruiser (very reactive, will not hesitate to bite and rip flesh) and turn him around, and is now one of the highest ranked Rally dogs in the States, a demo dog, and hasn't bitten in years. The biggest barrier between what you have now and success is knowledge and time. I think you'd benefit greatly from finding a professional behaviourist who can really break down Bruiser's issues into manageable chunks and set up a plan of attack for you. I also think you guys need to read. A lot. Try Scaredy Dog by Ali Brown for the fear, and Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor and maybe Do Over Dogs by Pat Miller. I also really like the blog Reactive Champion. She had two recent posts on anxiety-related dog body language: Appeasement Signals and Distance-Increasing Signals. I mention the blog and the posts since you'll have to get good at reading body language, and it helps to read about the experiences of someone who went through something similar. It's possible that his bum leg is causing him pain, which will almost definitely cause increased aggression. Maybe consult with a vet, and consider pain management meds. Here's a few things I noticed while watching the video. 0:05, head tilt, lip lick (calming signals) other dog backs away. 0:11, paw lift (calming signal, sign of discomfort) 0:13, oppositional reflex in response to leash pressure, freeze 0:18, explosion, 2 second duration, leash remains somewhat taut 0:22, lip lick, rigid body 0:23, explosion Basically, you can see that he's tense and giving plenty of warning signals before the explosion. That's a good thing. You need to learn to identify his triggers and preempt a full on reactive fit. I think he was way too stressed by the combination of being in a room with other dogs and having a taut leash. He's learned that if he lashes out people and dogs will give him the space he craves. So, in closing, your idea of giving super tasty treats when he's on leash is a good one, but you need to go a bit further and learn to read his body signals to preempt explosions. Find a professional to work with you personally. They'll help you figure out what you can and can't handle. Edit: Basically this is a dog who I would not drag anywhere. Make it your mission to keep leash pressure at zero, and drop treats in a line along the ground à la Hansel and Gretel to get him to move from point A to point B if you have to. Teach him to target your hand with his nose, and use that to move him to a new location if you have to. a life less fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jun 26, 2011 |
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Jun 26, 2011 01:11
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Thank you so much for all that info. I will definitely check out everything you mentioned. I am going to try to see if any small dog rescues in the area will take him because hopefully they have the resources to tackle this. But if no one does, I will do my best. This will be... fun?  I think my boss is good friends with a dog trainer so maybe I can get her contact info and work alongside her. If I do end up having to work with him (which I am pretty sure will be the case) I will keep track of the progress and keep you guys updated to make sure I am not seriously messing up. I am frustrated because I cannot take him home (and refuse to have him in my home at this point) and at work he is always around multiple dogs. Such a freaking mess.
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Jun 26, 2011 01:40
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One of my mother's pugs... is afraid of food dishes.  Rubber, plastic, paper, steel, deep, shallow, plate... he's scared of them all. He has to eat his food off the floor because OH GOD THE DISH MIGHT BITE HIM.This is because he is a violent licker and it makes the dish move and jump around, which terrifies him. I tried to convince him the dish (in this case a flat, non-threatening plate) wasn't a monster by putting pieces of OMG HOTDOG YAY on there. After the other pug, Gracie, stole the first couple of pieces he was determined not to be left out and started fearlessly digging in to get the hotdog pieces. After that he even seemed to think, "oh cool, it won't bite" and was happily munching his kibble off the plate. Until Gracie came to get her share. He doesn't like to eat around her because she's a filthy little food thief. I've never actually seen her resource guard but she can be pushy with food, which causes him to back off when she's eating. After she left he went back to fearing the plate. If there are pieces of food on the floor near the plate, he'll reach his little leg out as far as he can to drag the piece to him to avoid getting near the plate. So I don't know if it's the movement of past dishes that has him scared of it or if he's worried Gracie will shove him out of the way if he's caught eating off the plate.Slightly off topic: Gracie is a pug, and therefore not bright at all, but when it comes to food she has poo poo figured out. Shadow will bark at her if she comes to steal a treat he's saving for later. But she learned to face the door and start barking, which will cause Shadow to jump up and go to the door to bark at the ~intruder~ also. As soon as he does she darts in and steals the treat. He stopped falling for it though. 
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Jun 28, 2011 02:25
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Skizzles, it sounds like the dogs should be separated when they're eating. It seems obvious that your one pug is stressed by the other. It might not be starting fights or anything, but ultimately it sounds like it'd be a happier experience for the boy. -0- I just read something that could be useful for those of you dealing with reactive dogs. Consider conditioning them to love being picked up. If you do this, it becomes a possible management strategy when moving through crowded doorways and other spaces without increasing stress levels. It's meant to be a preemptive method to prevent stress, not used as a response to it. My guess is that it might not work for all dogs. I've always been of the mindset that you should leave reactive dogs on the ground, so as not to accidentally increase reactivity. It seems like a decent suggestion: create an "up" cue, and condition both that and the act of being picked up.
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Jun 29, 2011 14:27
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I'd like to add to that - having a cue for your dog to jump into your arms (obviously depending on size). Not only might it be a good way to bring the dog back to you if it is a distance away and your usual recall cue isn't working, but it also gives the dog something to think about and gives them the choice where possible. Now if I could only remember that Lola has that cue, I always forget about it but she absolutely loves it.
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Jun 29, 2011 15:36
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Ok, this is getting to the point where I really need to do something about it. We have a two year old Pit BullxLab that we brought in last fall as a stray. For the most part he is a great dog, but he has a lot of the baggage that comes with an abandoned/abused animal. The issue that I am most worried about right now is what I would consider a resource guarding issue/territorial. It's not about food or toys. He is not possessive of his food at all and you can pry a toy out of his mouth and he won't bat an eyelash. He has shown zero signs of DA and is extremely tolerant of our other dog, but is terrified of strange dogs. Since we brought him home he has been sleeping on my bed. I know that he really shouldn't, but there was no behavioral issues associated with it until the past few months. Then he started this possessive behavior that is starting to worry me. When I am in or on my bed, and someone else approaches me, he will run into the room if he isn't already there and place himself between me and the other person. If the other person leaves right away he will not persist, but if they linger or try to touch me in any way he gets very uptight and growls. He has snapped at both my mother and my EX, which is the thing that really worries me. He has never bitten and will back off if I scold him, but the behavior is not stopping and rather, seems to be getting worse. At any other time he is loving and friendly towards everyone in the family and close friends, standoffish to strangers but never aggressive and always warms up to them after a while. This only happens when I am in or on my bed, I could be sitting on the floor in my room and he does not have this kind of reaction. Any help would be appreciated, I DO NOT want this to escalate into a situation where he might bite someone, because of course my mothers reaction would automatically be "OMG he bit me because he is a PIT BULL" not because he has behavioral issues from living what I can only assume was a pretty bad life before we found him, as he was skin and bones, covered in scars and sores and scared silly of every living thing he came across. I have already stopped him from sleeping in my room and am considering a squirt bottle to use when he acts up this way.
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Jun 29, 2011 15:45
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a life less posted:My guess is that it might not work for all dogs. I've always been of the mindset that you should leave reactive dogs on the ground, so as not to accidentally increase reactivity. It seems like a decent suggestion: create an "up" cue, and condition both that and the act of being picked up. This would probably work better for dogs smaller than yourself, lol. Azrael I would first ban the dog from the bed since he has shown that he is having problems with it, at least for now. My dog gets very concerned about people hugging, although not quite to that degree. What I've done to work on it is just have people touch me and let treats rain from the sky. For you, I would just sit on the edge of the bed and have someone talk to you from across the room while you give your dog oodles of treats, when the person leaves the treats stop. Have them get closer over a series of sessions and build up to someone just touching you or shaking your hand. Don't use positive punishment (yelling, scolding, squirt bottles) because that's just showing him that people approaching really is a bad thing and that he needs to chase them off. Having a good positive trainer come over and see the situation and advise you might be the way to go for this. vvv Yay, Psyche! Way to go crazydog buddy! vvvv Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jun 29, 2011 |
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Jun 29, 2011 17:24
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a life less posted:Consider conditioning them to love being picked up. If you do this, it becomes a possible management strategy when moving through crowded doorways and other spaces without increasing stress levels. It's meant to be a preemptive method to prevent stress, not used as a response to it. As Psyche is pretty small, we employed picking her up a lot to remove her from situations and in crowded spots and always tried to preempt the situation, i.e. pick her up before she noticed the incoming agitator. We also were careful to pick her up a lot otherwise and she always seemed to love being held, particularly by my husband who's bigger than me and holds her in all sorts of positions that seemed to calm her down, with the best one being her head under his arm so she wouldn't be looking at upsetting things (she would put her head there automatically). Over time though, she still became reactive toward being picked up and now seems to differentiate between being picked up for no reason or because there's something to react to nearby (I'm sure she can read it in our body language or whatever). So I've been trying to move away from using that. I think if your dog is little enough to be scooped up in bad situations, that's a great tool, but you need to be careful. My husband had been defaulting to picking her up even in salvageable situations (it took me a while to notice because when we're together, I'm usually holding the leash) and I think that's a big part of what poisoned it for us. I never would have bothered with an up cue with Psyche because we never would have been able to proof it enough outside for it to be useful. We're still getting her to do simple tricks outside reliably if there's any activity. For very reactive dogs, I think sticking with the very easy sit (or down depending on the dog) and things like Touch are best. Psyche trip report! It's been a month since we moved and we just had our third class since then. The change has been astounding. With people we've gone from the assistants approaching Psyche with their gaze averted and never coming very close to her eating out of their hands while walking calmly beside them. We've gone from her freaking out whenever anyone reached for something or handed things off to her not caring at all while the assistants went for a bag on the ground to grab more treats. With dogs, we have twice now lead the precession of dogs for perimeter walking whereas we used to bring up the rear with a LOT of space between us and the next dog and today we did parallel walking with three other dogs! Psyche had three (short) outbursts today during the hour long class whereas before it was not uncommon for her to have three in 5-10 minutes and need to be taken aside to calm down again. She did nip at my knee though, the little brat. We almost made a month without her biting anyone, only two days to go. Bah. At home we introduced her to a new friend without incident except that she shied away when my friend went to pet her (the friend now doesn't believe any of the things I've been telling her) and even let Psyche run around the house loose with a friend she knows outside on the deck with no barking. Moral of the story: environment matters. I only wish we could have moved sooner.
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Jun 29, 2011 18:21
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Kiri koli posted:I think if your dog is little enough to be scooped up in bad situations, that's a great tool, but you need to be careful. My husband had been defaulting to picking her up even in salvageable situations (it took me a while to notice because when we're together, I'm usually holding the leash) and I think that's a big part of what poisoned it for us. I had to pick Lola up today, because some idiot let his dog come bounding over (he was calling it, but half-heartedly and it didn't pay a single whit of attention to him). Lola wasn't impressed with being toted through the air at a fast pace, as the drat dog followed us for about 20-25m, but she only vocalised once, which was a lot better than I expected. Well done on your work with Psyche! It's really awesome hearing how other people's progress with reactive dogs is coming along. I just wish I had a good training class near me; of the two I can attend at the moment, one relies on forcing your dog to confront things and the other uses dominance theory so uhhh no thanks!
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Jun 29, 2011 18:30
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Instant Jellyfish posted:This would probably work better for dogs smaller than yourself, lol. I can pick Shadow up, but uh... try being a 5'1" girl and carrying a 70lb dog more than a few feet. But no, I get what you're saying, a life less, and I think it's a good idea. As for the pugs, that would probably be for the best to feed them separately but my mom free-feeds (hence fat pugs). I'll talk to her about putting them on a schedule and separating them. But the scaredy pug, CK, is afraid of food dishes whether or not the other pug is around. He's... very special. I'm sorry, I will never own a pug.
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Jun 29, 2011 18:58
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If I ask my dog to sit/stay every time before we go outside, and he lays down instead as if trying to wrestle down his own excitement, do I continue as normal or do we start over so that he is doing exactly what I ask? It's hilarious yet sad, I can tell he's trying SO hard and wants to go outside SO bad, that he's like "maybe if I lay down I won't spring myself out the door before she says I can". Or I guess I could just cave and make the door command be lay/stay, and use sit/stay for meals.
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Jun 29, 2011 20:07
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Fraction posted:I'd like to add to that - having a cue for your dog to jump into your arms (obviously depending on size). Not only might it be a good way to bring the dog back to you if it is a distance away and your usual recall cue isn't working, but it also gives the dog something to think about and gives them the choice where possible. I would love to be able to signal my dog to jump into my arms. However, I'm not sure I would be able to catch him unless we practiced, and I don't know how to practice something I'm not sure I can do (if you know what I mean). I can't really think of a baby step for jumping into my arms. Maybe jumping into my lap? Note that my dog weighs about 35 pounds now, and I can pick him up, although he doesn't much like it, probably because the only time I do it is to put him into the tub for a bath!
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Jun 30, 2011 04:44
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Rhymes With Clue posted:I would love to be able to signal my dog to jump into my arms. However, I'm not sure I would be able to catch him unless we practiced, and I don't know how to practice something I'm not sure I can do (if you know what I mean). I can't really think of a baby step for jumping into my arms. Maybe jumping into my lap? I just followed the Kikopup video for training it - here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXdpTMV7R9c Lola picked it up really fast, and it's the only thing other than barking that she's on an intermittent reinforcement schedule for because it is so rewarding to her (she loves to be carried). Just take it real slow and your dog should understand, though! Oh and edited to add, a video of Lola showing it from today. One thing to remember is that if they do it from a distance and don't break first, it's going to be like having a dog three or four times their natural weight ramming into your stomach. It's slightly better if you bend your legs so they aim at your upper thighs rather than directly at your stomach, too. Fraction fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Jun 30, 2011 |
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Jun 30, 2011 08:55
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Okay, that was very neat. How much does Lola weigh?
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Jun 30, 2011 22:19
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She's around 12-13lbs (last weighed her at the start of the month, she was 12lbs then). So when she charges from a distance, it feels a whole lot more like she weighs ~30lbs. Oh, and to see how easily a dog that doesn't like it can pick it up (if they are food orientated), I taught my eleven year old dog, who weighs around 28lbs, to do it today: here. It's not on verbal cue because Jess isn't great with verbal cues, but she got the idea and trusted me enough to do it within twenty minutes or so. I don't think I'll be getting her to charge at me and jump though, because I'm pretty sure that would snap me in half! EDIT: A couple weeks ago, someone on a dog training community I'm in sent me the full version of a nine-page journal (Training methods and owner–dog interactions: Links with dog behaviour and learning ability) from here. I just saw it again now after forgetting about it; it looks pretty interesting. 'Abstract: The methods by which owners train their pet dogs range widely, with some exclusively using rewards, and others using a combination, or only punishment-based methods. This paper examines links between the way in which owners reported to have trained their dogs and observations of the dogs’ subsequent behaviour. It also explores associations between behaviour of owner and dog when tested in their own home. A total of 53 owners were surveyed about their preferred methods for training each of seven common tasks, and were each filmed interacting with their dog in a series of standardised scenarios. Dogs owned by subjects who reported using a higher proportion of punishment were less likely to interact with a stranger, and those dogs whose owners favoured physical punishment tended to be less playful. However, dogs whose owners reported using more rewards tended to perform better in a novel training task. Ability at this novel task was also higher in dogs belonging to owners who were seen to be more playful and who employed a patient approach to training. This study shows clear links between a dog’s current behaviour and its owner’s reported training history as well as the owner’s present behaviour. High levels of punishment may thus have adverse effects upon a dog’s behaviour whilst reward based training may improve a dog’s subsequent ability to learn.' If anyone wants, I can email it to them - not sure about the legality of posting it up here. It looks pretty fascinating though. Fraction fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jun 30, 2011 |
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Jun 30, 2011 22:34
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My dog keeps slipping her collar with the walker. What harness would you recommend? Something front clip sounds good but I don't know which ones are decent quality.
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Jun 30, 2011 22:45
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Silver Nitrate posted:My dog keeps slipping her collar with the walker. What harness would you recommend? Something front clip sounds good but I don't know which ones are decent quality. I liked my Sense-ation harness better than the Easy Walk in terms of quality and fit but my dog is sort of awkwardly shaped. Both of these can still be slipped by a tricksy dog though so I would recommend clipping the leash to both the harness and a collar (a carabiner works great for this). If you would rather stick with a collar, a martingale style collar is made to be hard to slip out of for dogs with wide necks or pointy heads.
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Jun 30, 2011 23:07
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Silver Nitrate posted:My dog keeps slipping her collar with the walker. What harness would you recommend? Something front clip sounds good but I don't know which ones are decent quality. As well as the harness situation, have you looked into martingale collars? They can be either cloth or chain, and can be pretty tough for a dog to back out of. I think the cloth ones are great.
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Jul 1, 2011 06:05
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I really need to stop posting in this thread  Today on our walk, I completely forgot my newfound thought yesterday of slow everything down for making Lola less reactive. We were going to somewhere Lola's only ever been once before, and that I haven't been to for a while, and I completely forgot that one of the houses you have to pass has a husky or mal chained up outside during the day. The dog is the most chilled out, lovely thing ever, which is cool. It wasn't cool that Lola started barking and snarling as soon as she saw it (it was laid next to the car tyres so I think she was startled and reacted in typical terrier fashion). I hauled her past since there was nothing I could do, and carried on walking. When we were leaving the field, I had a thought - that perhaps I'm too 'soft' with Lola in regards to her reactivity. Some of her best-followed cues are those that she knows there is a negative consequence for; such as a penalty walk for breaking a stay. I remembered that Lola used to not be able to be in the crate with me in the room without pitching a fit, and simply interrupting her whine with a calm, firm 'no' has made it so that she even goes in there voluntarily now. So I tested it: when we were heading back from the field, about three or four metres from where you can first see the husky, Lola's hackles started going up. I continued forward - she saw the dog, barked, and I told her firmly 'no'. I didn't shout, didn't touch her. She stopped barking--didn't stare at the dog--and just calmly looked between me and the dog for LAT rewards. We carried on walking, since I was running out of kibble (story of my life ), and then I on a spur of the moment thing turned back after a few seconds' walking and walked back. Lola's hackles didn't go up, she didn't shut down (took treats), she didn't go all wiggly like she does when I raise my voice. She just very calmly looked between me and the dog, even when I amped her up by rubbing her sides and cooing happily at her. She even turned her back on a strange dog to let me stroke her better.But I'm conflicted about this because, on the one hand, punishment in treating aggression is bad. But on the other hand... I'm not sure exactly that Lola's barking at dogs IS aggression. She used to be really friendly with other dogs, and I'm not sure if she just upped and decided that her excitement was now going to be aggression, or if her excitement became some sort of reactive frustration. Plus, Lola's a JRT - barking is incredibly self reinforcing, and part of her nature. I obviously don't want to make her reactivity worse, but... I don't know. For what it's worth I don't use 'no' as a punishment so much as to interrupt a behaviour - to tell her 'that isn't going to get you a reward so knock it off.' Any ideas? Fraction fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jul 1, 2011 |
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Jul 1, 2011 21:14
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