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Fatkraken posted:But Skinner argues AGAINST free will; by his own reckoning there are not the good and bad people you were previously talking about, people are simply products of their environments. Yes, and some people's environments are conducive to bad behavior. People do not have any personal autonomy, but some people are certainly more dangerous and harmful to society than others, not of their own accord, but dangerous and harmful nonetheless. quote:If you can change the environment, you can change the behaviour, you don't have to kill people to rid society of undesirable behaviour patterns. This is an argument in favour of stepping up efforts in rehabilitation and reintegration of criminals into non-criminal society. Yes, but you can't go back in time. Some damage is irreparable. I am all in favor of optimizing the environment to make sure future generations do not become murderers and rapists and so on, but the murderers and rapists of the current day must be dealt with first. quote:What, specifically should this destination be? "betterment of society" and "advancement of national interests" is too vague, I'm after very specific goals like "a smaller number of innocent people should be killed prematurely", "standards of living should be improved for the poorest people" or "the ability to pursue chosen life goals regardless of the circumstances of birth should be increased for all people" Those are all laudable goals and I would certainly consider them to be subsets of societal betterment. quote:What good does it do to society to execute innocent people? It doesn't. quote:Literally fascism. I don't deny that I am a fascist (which is not synonymous with national socialist; I am neither a racialist a la Jared Taylor nor a racist). I am not a troll, however. Andropov fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jun 26, 2011 |
# ? Jun 26, 2011 15:28 |
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# ? May 29, 2024 15:01 |
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Fatkraken posted:You do know that 1984 was a political satire right? Also DNA does not work that way.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 15:29 |
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Andropov posted:No, I am not OK with killing innocent people. DNA testing and the like can now show us beyond all reasonable doubt who did what, when, where, and to who. I propose installing surveillance cameras in all public areas, among other things, to decrease the chance of executing an innocent. I hope you are aware that it is exactly this way of thinking that will in the long run lead to the downfall of societies. You fail to include things such as happiness or liberty in your equation of the greatest societal gain. Like it or not, people tend to be unhappy under constant surveillance and will only tolerate it for so long until they rebel. You would "fix" the judical system and break the rest of society.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 15:32 |
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I'm really happy you explained the divide between social background and conscious wrongdoing, Fatkraken! (E: and better than I could, too!) My parents and most of my family are both psychically ill and alcoholics. I've broken the law more times than I have hairs on my head, and at long last I can keep track of what I do on purpose, and what is a consequence of my upbringing. Thankfully I live in evil commie Scandinavia, so all I ever got was a slap on the wrist..
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 15:34 |
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Andropov posted:Yes, but you can't go back in time. Some damage is irreparable. I am all in favor of optimizing the environment to make sure future generations do not become murderers and rapists and so on, but the murderers and rapists of the current day must be dealt with first. You can turn someone who has committed murder into someone who will not commit any more murders. Even as it stands, the recidivism rate for murder relatively low. It's hard to find lifetime statistics, but I have found a three-year statistic of about 1.2%: of murderers released from prison, 1.2% commit another murder within three years of release. This means you have to kill 100 murderers to save one victim (who may well also be a murderer, since many multiple-murderers are gang members and kill members of rival gangs). So the death penalty as an insurance policy against future murders is not appropriate.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 15:36 |
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quote:I'm really happy you explained the divide between social background and conscious wrongdoing, Fatkraken! (E: and better than I could, too!) There is no divide. Human beings do not possess any autonomy of their own as we live in a deterministic universe. "Free will" is a nonsensical concept. This is a totally different debate, however.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 15:38 |
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Andropov posted:There is no divide. Human beings do not possess any autonomy of their own as we live in a deterministic universe. "Free will" is a nonsensical concept. This is a totally different debate, however. So if there is no free will and everything is determined, who are you to say we should remove murderers from society? How can you say it isn't their destiny to commit their crimes unhindered? Frankly it seems like you just read your first serious philosophical book and it "like totally blew your mind, dude" and now you take it for the one true gospel.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 15:46 |
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I am a rational individual. Maybe it is their destiny to commit their crimes unhindered, but I'd rather they didn't. I take inspiration from many books and many authors, so I would disagree with your amateur psycho-analysis.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 16:05 |
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Andropov posted:There is no divide. Human beings do not possess any autonomy of their own as we live in a deterministic universe. "Free will" is a nonsensical concept. This is a totally different debate, however. If you don't get that exposure to criminal and/or abuse in a young child will automatically lead to behavioural problems as an adult I don't know what to tell you. Seriously, I cannot see how you can hold that position without having an extremely drat sheltered existence.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 16:06 |
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quote:If you don't get that exposure to criminal and/or abuse in a young child will automatically lead to behavioural problems as an adult I don't know what to tell you. I have never denied this.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 16:08 |
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Andropov posted:I am a rational individual. Maybe it is their destiny to commit their crimes unhindered, but I'd rather they didn't. You're a "rational individual" with an extraordinarily simplified and limited view of the world. DNA doesn't magically prove people guilty and courts often do make mistakes. If it helps you feel more rational, many of your arguments sound like something pulled from Stalin's memoirs.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 16:08 |
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Please stop feeding the troll and ruining the thead, guys.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 16:18 |
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jettisonedstuff posted:Please stop feeding the troll and ruining the thead, guys. This. I don't think anything constructive will come of it. An update on my Numbers Gang project: The girl I know that travels a lot in S. Africa and has the book on the subject has left town because she's moving, but I just wanted to say that I'm still working on getting a full copy of the story.
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# ? Jun 26, 2011 16:24 |
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Here's something about gay inmates putting a halt to prison rape back in the 70s. quote:Ed Mead was arrested relatively early in the Brigade’s trajectory, so he spent much of his organizing time behind bars. In his close to twenty-year sentence, Mead led work strikes, filed petitions, and generally did his best to fan the flames of discontent wherever he went. This made him something of a scourge to prison administrators, who bounced him through state and federal penal systems, moving him along whenever his organizing efforts began to bear fruit. http://www.feminisnt.com/2011/the-most-beautiful-photos-youll-see-today-70s-queer-resistance-in-prison/
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# ? Jun 28, 2011 23:01 |
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Andropov posted:I am a rational individual. Maybe it is their destiny to commit their crimes unhindered, but I'd rather they didn't. I have a question for a theory of mine: Do you work in IT or computer programming of any sort? Sorry for the off topic.
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# ? Jun 28, 2011 23:06 |
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Oh rationalist determinist fascist, you so crazy. I wish he could stick around to tell us more about how a punishment-based judicial system makes sense in a deterministic world.
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# ? Jun 28, 2011 23:28 |
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Andropov posted:I am a rational individual. You didn't derive your belief system from first-order logic, you're basing it on what you've read or been told and then you've built your worldview on your own irrational reactions to these things, just like everybody else.
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# ? Jun 29, 2011 01:45 |
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"indefinite" hunger strike at Pelican Bay. quote:Prisoners in the Security Housing Unit (SHU) at Pelican Bay State Prison (California) are going on an indefinite hunger strike as of July 1, 2011 to protest the cruel, inhumane, and torturous conditions of their imprisonment. The hunger strike has been organized by prisoners in an inspiring show of unity across racial and geographic lines upheld and exacerbated by prison officials. more info here on solidarity stuff. it might even get a bit of media coverage so it has the potential be a really good opportunity to bring a lot of these issues out into the foreground. immediate context that has probably already been mentioned in this thread more than once is that California's prison system has been in federal receivership for being in violation of the eight amendment for quite a while now. the state government has resisted coming into compliance and puts everything it has into litigating against federal injunctions. just one example: "American Bar Association posted:The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld a cap on California’s prison population that was imposed by a three-judge federal panel to reduce prison overcrowding and improve inmate health care. here is a post HFG made on Pelican Bay specifically. e: wow, this is classy quote:According to the wife of a Pelican Bay SHU prisoner, “The prison has been advertising the 4th of July holiday Menu, with hotlinks, strawberry shortcake and ice cream. They have NEVER had ice cream in the SHU, and in the nearly 20 years he has been in the CA system, he has never seen a strawberry.” dm fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Jun 29, 2011 |
# ? Jun 29, 2011 15:35 |
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AZ: Wal-Mart/Martori Farms Use & Abuse of Women at Perryville Prisonquote:Wal-Mart has described its relationship with Martori Farms as an example of "fruitful collaboration." quote:One of the women prisoners at Martori Farms told Truth-Out: "We work eight hours regardless of conditions .... We work in the fields hoeing weeds and thinning plants ... Currently we are forced to work in the blazing sun for eight hours. We run out of water several times a day. We ran out of sunscreen several times a week. They don't check medical backgrounds or ages before they pull women for these jobs. Many of us cannot do it! If we stop working and sit on the bus or even just take an unauthorized break we get a MAJOR ticket which takes away our 'good time'!!! We are told we get 'two' 15 minute breaks and a half hour lunch like a normal job but it's more like 10 minutes and 20 minutes. They constantly yell at us we are too slow and to speed up because we are costing $150 an acre in labor and that's not acceptable... In addition, the prison has sent women to work on the farms regardless of their medical conditions."
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 07:13 |
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We can't even afford to properly clothe our prison population. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8607429/US-inmates-forced-to-wear-dirty-underwear.html quote:US inmates 'forced to wear dirty underwear' May not seem like a big deal to some but it's very telling of overall problem with our system. We can't afford to give them underwear yet we can afford to take away their freedom and subject them to inhumane conditions which leads to even worse social behavior/consequences. We're taking a problem and making it 10x worse in the end.
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 15:34 |
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dm posted:"indefinite" hunger strike at Pelican Bay.
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 17:23 |
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nm posted:If it doesn't work they'll just force feed them anyhow. Knock them out with drugs and then use a feeding tube.
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 18:04 |
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quote:Knock them out with drugs and then use a feeding tube. I wouldn't be surprised if they used the hunger strike as some sort of evidence of mental instability. Prisoners won't eat so we are forced, to ensure their safety and well being, to medically render them unconscious and administer life saving nutrients via feeding tubes. Unless this has already been done before and I'm just not that up to date with our horrible prison practices?
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 18:17 |
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PTBrennan posted:I wouldn't be surprised if they used the hunger strike as some sort of evidence of mental instability. It has been used before, as recently as 2009 (especially in Gitmo). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force-feeding#In_prisons quote:Under United States jurisdiction, force-feeding is frequently[7][8] used in the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, prompting in March 2006 an open letter by 250 doctors from seven Western countries in the medical journal The Lancet, warning that, in their opinion, the participation of any doctor is contrary to the rules of the World Medical Association.[9] Retired Major General Paul E. Vallely visited Guantanamo and reported on the process of force-feeding[10]: And, just this past winter an inmate in Salt Lake County died on a hunger strike. New policies in the jail will allow jail staff to ask for a court order to force feed prisoners on strike in the future. It appears most such actions will require a clear and imminent danger of starvation before force-feeding begins, but we all know that's ripe for abuse in the early days of a hunger strike. Kind of a, "Look out, he's comin' right fer us!" situation. http://www.thecrimereport.org/archive/2011-06-ut-jail-proc quote:After Utah Inmate Dies of Starvation, Jail To Act Quickly in Similar Cases
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 18:31 |
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Oh my god, I said that in jest. Why was I right?
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 19:27 |
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quote:Oh my god, I said that in jest. Why was I right? It doesn't surprise me one bit. They beat, humiliate, abuse and pretty do what they want to prisoners, why wouldn't they be allowed to force feed them? quote:It has been used before, as recently as 2009 (especially in Gitmo). Thanks for the links and info brotha. Adding them to my bookmarked pages and gonna read up on them. PTBrennan fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jun 30, 2011 |
# ? Jun 30, 2011 19:57 |
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Tigntink posted:Oh my god, I said that in jest. Why was I right? Nothing in prison shocks me.
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 22:23 |
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nm posted:Wait, you thought I was joking? I thought it was sarcasm! It's like that little girl who murdered her toddler brother and I said "well theyll charge a 12 year old with murder, why wouldn't they charge a 6 year old with murder" and I didn't really want to believe that they would but in my heart I know it's a possibility. I knew it was a possibility, I just didn't want to believe it already happened.
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 22:27 |
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As far as I know force feeding prisoners on a hunger strike has been done as least as far back as the Suffragette movement in the early 20th century. Back then they actually had to force a tube down the womens' mouths or noses, which led to all kinds of injury. The women back then categorized it as a form of torture. Then again, back then hunger strikes were seen as a big deal and women were regularly released when they became sick. Ofcourse after they had recovered, they'd be put right back in prison. Then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Forcefeeding.jpg Now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Restraint_chair_used_for_enteral_feeding_-b.jpg
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 22:39 |
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Tigntink posted:I thought it was sarcasm! Our office entertained some high-level Vietnamese criminal lawyers a few months ago. They were genuinely aghast that in America we can charge 12 year olds with crimes.
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# ? Jun 30, 2011 23:26 |
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Tigntink posted:It's like that little girl who murdered her toddler brother and I said "well theyll charge a 12 year old with murder, why wouldn't they charge a 6 year old with murder" and I didn't really want to believe that they would but in my heart I know it's a possibility.
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# ? Jul 1, 2011 00:15 |
joat mon posted:Our office entertained some high-level Vietnamese criminal lawyers a few months ago. They were genuinely aghast that in America we can charge 12 year olds with crimes. There are a lot of high-level American criminal lawyers are aghast that American lawyers can charge 12 year olds with crimes. These same lawyers are even more aghast that American lawyers do charge 12 year olds with crimes. It's not a lawyer problem, it's a politician problem. Edit: \/\/ Agreed BigHead fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jul 1, 2011 |
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# ? Jul 1, 2011 18:25 |
BigHead posted:There are a lot of high-level American criminal lawyers are aghast that American lawyers can charge 12 year olds with crimes. These same lawyers are even more aghast that American lawyers do charge 12 year olds with crimes. It's not a lawyer problem, it's a politician problem. It's a business issue, politics is just the public face.
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# ? Jul 1, 2011 18:26 |
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Cory Maye to be released from prison.
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# ? Jul 2, 2011 00:13 |
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HidingFromGoro posted:Cory Maye to be released from prison. I'm very glad to see that. It still makes me angry that he served time at all and he'll always have manslaughter on his record. Anyone else had broken in and he would have hailed a hero by the NRA for using a gun to stop an intruder.
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# ? Jul 2, 2011 04:56 |
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Tigntink posted:I'm very glad to see that. It still makes me angry that he served time at all and he'll always have manslaughter on his record. Anyone else had broken in and he would have hailed a hero by the NRA for using a gun to stop an intruder. Forget the NRA. Mr. Maye is a hero to me. He acted to protect his daughter when he had no reason to expect the police to come crashing through his door. I'm surprised he lived to see this day. Black man, Mississippi, on death row, "cop killer." I hate to call this "justice" a miracle, but with all the points against him, yeah, his walking out of jail is pretty miraculous.
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# ? Jul 2, 2011 07:38 |
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Tigntink posted:I'm very glad to see that. It still makes me angry that he served time at all and he'll always have manslaughter on his record. Anyone else had broken in and he would have hailed a hero by the NRA for using a gun to stop an intruder.
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# ? Jul 2, 2011 08:10 |
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Does anyone have any sources handy comparing the US treatment of prisoners and similar things to that of other countries? I almost got in an argument the other day before realizing that I actually have no idea how each stacks up. I've heard vague "other countries put more money into rehabilitation" but I don't really know what that means specifically. What are the prison cultures like in other countries, both inside and out?
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# ? Jul 7, 2011 19:59 |
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CA: Inmate hunger strike expands to at least 11 prisons, is latest challenge to brutal CA prison system e GA: The return of the convict lease HidingFromGoro fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Jul 8, 2011 |
# ? Jul 8, 2011 08:11 |
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# ? May 29, 2024 15:01 |
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To give a 'little' contrast, let me say that today I saw in the news that a dangerous prisoner for life has escaped in Finland. While on a permitted walk in the centre of the 16th largest city in Finland. So uh, hello USA prison system.
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# ? Jul 8, 2011 15:22 |