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Anecdotal but the 4 blister's I've bought so far have all been fine. 1 had a little excess flash that practically fell off when I touched it with the knife, which is far easy to correct than the metal minis. I'm off to buy a box of finecast incubi now so I've probably just shot myself in the foot by whiteknighting them 
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Jun 29, 2011 11:41
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From what i was told, they were in a rush to get the Finecast stuff out so they didn't really tell the QC people what was right and what was wrong for the resin models, so loads of broken crap got through. Now they know what they are doing, it should only be a few bubbles that make it to the shelves. That means you have to be careful with the boxed sets, as if they are early releases they could be hosed, but just open it in-store and you should be fine. At some point i'm going to swap my metal Kroq-Gar for the Finecast one, and will check it in-store for sure.
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Jun 29, 2011 12:02
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If Wayland Games has something like a 50% rate of flaws in these products, the costs of processing expected returns would be excessive. Whether this would be due to consumers "regurgitating Warseer" or not is kind of beside the point. Also, making a public statement that is sympathetic with what many of your customers believe with the side-aim of driving some web traffic... That is clearly the most cynically immoral thing that a business could do.
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Jun 29, 2011 15:33
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moths posted:Also, gently caress them for using "fail" as a noun. ...You are aware that assessments are usually graded either PASS or FAIL, right?
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Jun 29, 2011 15:47
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moths posted:They don't tell us how big the deliveries were, or how hard they looked for flawed miniatures to put into the "random" pool. But since they're willing to bend facts even slightly to fit their message, they lose all credibility. From Wayland Games: quote:For your information, we sampled and then assessed 60 sealed blisters with 30 taken at random from each of two deliveries of stock. Failures were 17 (57%) of 30 and 16 (53%) of 30, making 33 (55%) of 60 in total. They claim to have taken 30 blisters at random from two deliveries. Unless "at random" is a lie, then their methodology is sound. They took photographs of every flaw they found, and have presented a sample on the website for us to look at. Do you believe that Wayland Games is lying about their sampling method? Which "facts" are they "bending" to fit their message? Do you think that they have a responsibility to use rigorous scientific method when deciding what products they are willing to stock? Do you think they are attacking Games Workshop to score points with customers, even though they're still carrying Games Workshop products and, by all appearances, intend to continue to do so? Do you think that lying/exaggerating the issue would help their business? I think it's fair to say that most of the people in this thread are Games Workshop customers. Why would people who have, or continue to, pay good money for their products, want to believe there's been a serious quality problem if there really wasn't one? Personally I think you're being far too defensive about the initial problems with Finecast, which seem to me to be pretty goddamn clear. Quality control of the initial production run sent out to retailers was abysmal, far worse than anything we've seen from Games Workshop for many years... perhaps ever. Given that Games Workshop charges a substantial premium for its products based primarily on a reputation for top quality, I think that's a really big problem for the company. I hope they've fixed it already because I'm building a Tomb Kings army and I'm gonna want some of those finecast models eventually.
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Jun 29, 2011 19:51
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Lungboy posted:The first wave was, but they seem to have sorted it out now. The first wave was poo poo on the internet, sure. But the people who believe what they read there probably don't see much of it in real life. I've yet to meet someone IRL who had a bad finecast mini. Obviously that's no more proof than the poo poo that gets posted on the internet, but then you don't see people without problems posting about how awesome their poo poo is 24/7. quote:Quality control of the initial production run sent out to retailers was abysmal, far worse than anything we've seen from Games Workshop for many years... perhaps ever. Do you think that their sampling was large or rigorous enough to come to that conclusion? Do you think it warrants a follow up with other sellers and distributors? e; how much data do you have available of their previous initial production runs throughout the company history? How do those compare to Finecast? How has the introduction of the internet changed peoples perceptions regarding these production run flaws, if any? S.J. fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 29, 2011 |
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Jun 29, 2011 20:15
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Unfortunately, a randomly sampled assessment revealed what we feel to be an excessive level of actual and potential flaws that, if reflected across our entire stock of Finecast, could have resulted in unacceptable inconvenience to our customers. Although we will be returning our present stockholding to the manufacturer, please be assured that we remain committed to carrying the Finecast line and will be restocking in due course. Taken from Wayland. It's obvious they're not trying to bash GW or get spergy Warseer sympathy. It's an apology and an explanation.
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Jun 29, 2011 20:18
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I'm not sure what the motivation would be for Wayland to just be loving with GW? I mean, if GW decided they were being unreasonable, they could just stop selling to Wayland as a retailer, right? Do you really think that many people are going to be like 'gently caress yea!' and buy (non-finecast) stuff from Wayland because of this? I assume that Wayland had to deal with a number of returns and was just like 'ok, lets look at this; you know what, gently caress it, we're not dealing with this until it's sorted out'. Which seems pretty reasonable for a store to take, because pissing off customers and wasting time on returns isn't particularly profitable.
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Jun 29, 2011 20:34
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Ashcans posted:I'm not sure what the motivation would be for Wayland to just be loving with GW? I mean, if GW decided they were being unreasonable, they could just stop selling to Wayland as a retailer, right? Do you really think that many people are going to be like 'gently caress yea!' and buy (non-finecast) stuff from Wayland because of this? I assume that Wayland had to deal with a number of returns and was just like 'ok, lets look at this; you know what, gently caress it, we're not dealing with this until it's sorted out'. This is exactly what has happened. It cannot be cheap for wayland to be sending replacements out to every tom dick and harry who gets a bodgy cast, it costs them money to chase up replacements.
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Jun 29, 2011 20:51
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S.J. posted:Do you think that their sampling was large or rigorous enough to come to that conclusion? Do you think it warrants a follow up with other sellers and distributors? I think their sampling was large and rigorous enough for wayland to come to the conclusions that they reached. For the rest of us, I feel it's one particularly good data point (because of their methodology) among a large number of other reports of poor initial quality. Taken together, I think a reasonable person can definitely conclude that there's been a major quality problem with initial shipments of Finecast products. quote:e; how much data do you have available of their previous initial production runs throughout the company history? How do those compare to Finecast? How has the introduction of the internet changed peoples perceptions regarding these production run flaws, if any? I have no "data" in a rigorous sense, of course. However, I first started buying Games Workshop products in 1989 or 1990, and have paid at least some attention to the hobby since. At no time between then and now have I seen or heard of a similarly widespread initial quality problem across a whole range of products. There have been problems with individual products (like, a particular model or box set being crappy) but never something like this. Nevertheless, because I lack specific data, I chose my words carefully: I said "for many years... perhaps ever". Since the hobby's been active on the Net since at least the early 1990s, I think my statement is reasonable. More broadly, the Internet certainly has changed people's perceptions of quality, because it's much easier to publicly complain, and I think it's also likely that people are more inclined to complain about problems on the net, than praise a lack of problems/satisfaction. But we can still compare and contrast: there's been a lot of complaints about Finecast, compared to the amount of complaining we've seen in recent years about other Games Workshop releases/products. And I'll reiterate the foundational issues here: Games Workshop charges a large premium for its products. It has released a new line of models to replace existing ones, positioning the new models as superior in quality to the old. In some cases, the new Finecasts are as expensive or more expensive than the old metals. In that context, a quality problem is particularly problematic, both for GW and (especially) for its independent retailers, who will suffer substantial costs related to customer returns of Finecast products with problems. I think most reasonable people who have been keeping up with the thread for the last couple of months would reach the same conclusion, and I think that Moths' attack on Wayland (and by extension, those of us who are disappointed in Finecast) is unreasonably harsh.
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Jun 29, 2011 21:28
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Leperflesh posted:Do you believe that Wayland Games is lying about their sampling method? Yes. I think they went through a delivery much larger than 60 to find twenty nine miscasts and two hairs, took pictures, and posted about it. Leperflesh posted:Which "facts" are they "bending" to fit their message? Do you think that they have a responsibility to use rigorous scientific method when deciding what products they are willing to stock? Do you think they are attacking Games Workshop to score points with customers, even though they're still carrying Games Workshop products and, by all appearances, intend to continue to do so? Do you think that lying/exaggerating the issue would help their business? Three days ago, did anyone know or care who the gently caress Wayland Games was? Again, I'm not saying Finecast is good. And I'm especially not saying that about the first wave. But: Using hairs trapped in two blisters to bump their numbers over 50% is (at least) questionable or (at most) duplicitous. Being anywhere between those extremes casts doubt on their methodology. They've shown that they're willing to exaggerate a little (a hair makes the product worthless) so how can we trust them not to exaggerate a lot? How are we to trust that they didn't cherry-pick the worst out of 61? Or 240? I'm not defending Finecast in the least. Everybody agrees launch was a clusterfuck of terrible QC. But there's a lot of people band-wagoning the idea that Wayland Games looks out for the gamer! With science and statistics! and I'm not ready to swallow that unquestioningly. It gives them talking points when they're bitching out their GW rep, puts them in the map in a crowded market (internet hobby vendors), and generates positive name-recognition for their business. Plus they cash in on a tidal wave of nerdrage because now you can buy Finecast miniatures from the very guys who proved (with numbers!) that Finecast is terrible except for the ones they'll sell you.
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Jun 29, 2011 23:29
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Since when did you become a games workshop apologist?
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Jun 29, 2011 23:36
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Wayland games is actually pretty well known as far as internet GW retailers go, right up there with the Warstore.
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Jun 29, 2011 23:40
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moths posted:Yes. I think they went through a delivery much larger than 60 to find twenty nine miscasts and two hairs, took pictures, and posted about it. Do you have any evidence of this? Basically you're attacking them because you disagree with their results, as far as I can tell. I haven't seen a single shred of an indication that they're lying about anything; in fact it seems to me that they've been especially circumspect about what they've shown and what they've done, and moreover that their level of forthrightness and communication with their customers is praiseworthy. I mean, they could have simply not carried the products; or, alternatively, sent out product to customers that they knew or suspected was crap, knowing full well that many would simply never return the products despite being unhappy with them. Or, they could have trashed-talked GW. But they didn't. quote:They've shown that they're willing to exaggerate a little (a hair makes the product worthless) No they didn't. Again, from their page: quote:While failure doesn’t necessarily denote the blister content as being of less than merchantable quality, for our purposes it does categorise it as having a visible flaw that might be of sufficient concern to a customer such that the item might be returned. That is not the same as "the product is worthless". A human hair inside the packaging could well cause some customers to decide to return the product (because that's fuckin' gross). Wayland was not, explicitly, rejecting every single blister on the basis of its individual flaws; but rather, determining that too large a total percentage of the shipment had potentially problematic flaws to absorb the likely risk of having too many returns. You're accusing Wayland of falsifying data to appease internet nerd rage, while engaging in, as far as I can tell, utterly unqualified nerd rage yourself. All of the things you're accusing Wayland of doing are based on your own personal opinions about angry warhammer nerds and internet hobby vendors (which are of course always run by unethical pirates or something); and not, as far as I can see, on the slightest bit of actual evidence.
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Jun 29, 2011 23:44
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Nobody's raging, or even mad. They presented stuff in an (arguably) misleading way and masterfully positioned themselves champions of both Finecast haters and supporters. Good Job, Wayland Games.
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Jun 30, 2011 00:15
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moths posted:Yes. I think they went through a delivery much larger than 60 to find twenty nine miscasts and two hairs, took pictures, and posted about it. I saw a greater than 50% defect rate when I looked at the Finecast in my local GW just after release. Some models (Black Orc Big Boss I'm looking at you) were all unacceptable. I think their results are completely believable. quote:Three days ago, did anyone know or care who the gently caress Wayland Games was? Wayland games is arguably the largest independent GW retailer in the UK (it's between them and Maelstrom), and is pretty big in terms of online GW exporters to the rest of the world. You assume that because you haven't heard of them no one else has, which makes about as much sense as your conspiracy theory.
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Jun 30, 2011 00:35
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moths posted:Nobody's raging, or even mad. They presented stuff in an (arguably) misleading way and masterfully positioned themselves champions of both Finecast haters and supporters. The only "argument" you've made is "they're lying", and you've listed some possible motivations for lying. But no actual evidence that even vaguely suggests they're lying. That's not much of an argument. Consider the stakes; what do they have to lose from telling the truth? Now, what could they potentially lose, if they were caught lying? Seems like outright deliberate lying would be a stupid risk for an uncertain and possibly nonexistant reward. It makes far more sense to believe them, particularly given the (less-rigorous but widespread) reports from all over the place that seem to corroborate their findings.
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Jun 30, 2011 01:31
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"moths" posted:Three days ago, did anyone know or care who the gently caress Wayland Games was? This right here shows you either have no idea what you're talking about or are just plain trolling.
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Jun 30, 2011 03:46
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moths posted:Three days ago, did anyone know or care who the gently caress Wayland Games was? They are quite a big and well known online retailer especially in the UK and for the other regions like Australia who used to be able to order stuff from them. For the record the 3 finecast models I've bought have been perfect and I was really happy with them, I just thought it might be worth posting when I saw that whilst ordering some Grave Guard. Edit: SHields or great weapons for 20 Graveguard? The army will have about 40 skeletons with sword and shield, 20 ghouls and a magic focused vamp + 20 Grave guard ApocalypseMeow fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jun 30, 2011 |
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Jun 30, 2011 11:31
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moths posted:Three days ago, did anyone know or care who the gently caress Wayland Games was? Yes, they're a loving massive retailer who're really well regarded both in the UK and internationally.
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Jun 30, 2011 12:06
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moths posted:Three days ago, did anyone know or care who the gently caress Wayland Games was? It's kind of bandwagoning at this point, but I want to note that I am in the US and don't really buy much stuff online, but even I had heard of Wayland Games way before this. If you had asked me to name three internet stores for GW stuff, it would have been Warstore, Wayland, and Maelstrom. That fact that you haven't heard of them is what is strange, frankly.
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Jun 30, 2011 14:20
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ApocalypseMeow posted:SHields or great weapons for 20 Graveguard? Great weapons. Definitely great weapons. You've got plenty of sword and board dudes as it is with skeletons, you want something with heft to it. Strength 6 for dudes that cost 13 pts each and have killing blow is a monster. If you're worried about them striking last, use Van Hels on them in combat, which gives them ASF and re-rolling misses, and then keep a corpse cart close to stack the ASF again to let them strike first (yes you can combine them). Monstrous. Even better if you have your Vamp nearby with a helm of commandment for a sweet WS6 or 7 for the unit. This will make them tough as nails. You've got enough dudes at strength 3 or less, give these guys some massive hitting power and let them go to town. Banner of the Barrows is good if you want them off doing their own thing and not having Van Hels cast on them. I need to get a bunch of these guys together to make mine. I have one pack, I just need to work that special kind of magic which will allow me to make them into 40 or so :P
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Jun 30, 2011 14:57
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Are there any reputable websites that deal with trading? I got some goblin stuff in this ebay deal that I have no intention of using and I'm looking for people that might be interested. (If anyone's interested, I'm mainly looking to trade the two plastic BfSP goblin characters for a night goblin shaman blister)
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Jun 30, 2011 18:42
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Dnzr posted:Are there any reputable websites that deal with trading? I got some goblin stuff in this ebay deal that I have no intention of using and I'm looking for people that might be interested. Bartertown is where I go for stuff like that.
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Jun 30, 2011 18:50
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The Dark Project posted:Great weapons. Definitely great weapons. You've got plenty of sword and board dudes as it is with skeletons, you want something with heft to it. Strength 6 for dudes that cost 13 pts each and have killing blow is a monster. Cool, got them last night so they'll be getting great weapons! Need to find a use for the shields though, they are too cool to waste..
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Jul 1, 2011 09:50
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Could always put them on their back just in case you change your mind and want some with hand weapons and shields. Just let your opponent know beforehand. I don't see myself changing their loadout of weaponry any time soon, the st6 is just too good to pass up.
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Jul 1, 2011 10:59
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Make sure you re-read the rules for ASF and great weapons (ASL) before you make up your mind.
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Jul 1, 2011 14:55
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Not a viking posted:Make sure you re-read the rules for ASF and great weapons (ASL) before you make up your mind. Hmmm just to check I've got it right: If they have ASL and then a spell/ability gives them ASF they should then hit in order of intiative right? What happens if the have ASL from great weapons then I give them ASF from Vanhel's and ASF again from a corpse carts bound spell, do the ASF's stack giving me true ASF (as Dark Project says) or do I still just go at initiative order because they don't stack?
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Jul 1, 2011 15:51
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ApocalypseMeow posted:Hmmm just to check I've got it right: No, they'll just go at initiative order since neither of the ASF's you gave them override any other restrictions (like the High Elf ASF).
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Jul 1, 2011 19:31
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Not a viking posted:Make sure you re-read the rules for ASF and great weapons (ASL) before you make up your mind. How is your chaos dwarf army coming? I have some stuff you might be interested in. Got an email or IM I can say hi on?
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Jul 1, 2011 20:33
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Its going slow between moving soon and starcraft 2  hit me up at trulseren at yahoo dot no
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Jul 2, 2011 07:17
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Once again regarding something in the old thread: Some were asking about the "Knights of Bretonnia" books. I'm almost done with the second now (total of four) and they're pretty good. The stories and characters are decent but the writer, Anthony Reynolds, has a limited vocabulary at best. It's worth a read, even though Bretonnian nobles are real dicks.
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Jul 3, 2011 13:22
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poboom posted:
Fixed that fer ya
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Jul 3, 2011 14:49
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Did you get the new omnibus?
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Jul 3, 2011 14:58
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Real hurthling! posted:Did you get the new omnibus? I did and I love all the shorts they tacked onto the end.
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Jul 3, 2011 15:00
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Real hurthling! posted:Did you get the new omnibus? Yeah I got the omnibus 
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Jul 3, 2011 15:02
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I'll pick it up then. I was hesitant because I already own the first two parts.
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Jul 3, 2011 15:06
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Do you guys want cheap toy mans? I bought some stuff thinking I'd get back into WHFB and then it turns out I didn't, what a stupid goony thing to do. Oh well, now you can buy this stuff from me! Dwarves: -20 Thunderers (from the old starter box) -30 Warriors w/ command (also from starter) -Cannon -Lord Lizardmen -Bag of Lizardmen bitz! (I will take a photo, but it's lots of spare weapons, a skink character on a mount, stuff I intended to use to spruce up my 5th edition lizardmen) -8 5th edition sauruses
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Jul 4, 2011 01:05
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!amicable posted:Do you guys want cheap toy mans? I bought some stuff thinking I'd get back into WHFB and then it turns out I didn't, what a stupid goony thing to do. Oh well, now you can buy this stuff from me! edit: PM'd you instead. Indolent Bastard fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jul 4, 2011 |
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Jul 4, 2011 01:32
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S.J. posted:No, they'll just go at initiative order since neither of the ASF's you gave them override any other restrictions (like the High Elf ASF). Ah well, I built them half with shields and half with GW's so I can just use the unit for both depending on what I stick in the front row
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Jul 4, 2011 08:43
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