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Good question. That you were able to interrupt Lola's reaction indicates to me she's operant. One of the goals of classical conditioning is to get the dog operant so conscious learning can begin to take place. So if Lola was way above threshold and you had applied a punisher that would obviously start to work against you. But I don't automatically think that applying a mild punisher to clearly mark appropriate vs inappropriate behaviour is a bad thing. It's probably one of those "know thy dog" situations. If you rely too much on a punisher or see no progress then I'd think you'd have to go back to classical because your foundation was too weak. If you can use it only occasionally and progress then you're probably doing just fine.
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Jul 1, 2011 21:49
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I was out on a walk today with my 1 year old German Shepherd when two stray dogs approached us from behind. Once they got within range my girl went nuts on them and wanted to fight. These were two friendly dogs that didn't even bark at her and probably were wanting my attention rather than hers. I'm not sure how to interpret my dog's behavior in this situation. The only part that's clear to me is that she didn't want those dogs around and by doing what she did, she made them leave which is not the lesson I wanted her to learn. How should I have handled this better? She was on a prong collar at the time and responded to sit a command (after a correction) while the dogs were still pretty close, but it wasn't enough and she went right back into it. I basically just held the leash and pulled her away from the other dogs until they decided it was best to leave. I want my dog to look to me for direction when something like this happens. At this point I'm very nervous having her around any other dogs. She doesn't seem to like dogs or cats very much. At times she's tolerant, but other times something like this happens.
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Jul 1, 2011 22:17
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rear end Waffle posted:I was out on a walk today with my 1 year old German Shepherd when two stray dogs approached us from behind. Once they got within range my girl went nuts on them and wanted to fight. These were two friendly dogs that didn't even bark at her and probably were wanting my attention rather than hers. I'm not sure how to interpret my dog's behavior in this situation. The only part that's clear to me is that she didn't want those dogs around and by doing what she did, she made them leave which is not the lesson I wanted her to learn. So, that's what we commonly refer to as a reactive episode. It's usually a sign of fear rather than a sign of aggression, but unfortunately the outcome can often be the same: lots of noise, and the possibility someone's going to get bit. She was probably feeling insecure and put on an over-the-top performance to encourage the other dogs to give her space. Prong collars are a bad tool to use with reactive dogs. The way to treat reactivity is to change the underlying emotional reaction your dog has to a stimulus. In short, you associate something immensely positive like awesome food with the sight of other dogs. The reason you want to avoid prong collars is that if your dog pulls and self-corrects on the prong they're experiencing something negative. Dogs, being dumb, can associate negative experiences like a prong correction with the presence of other dogs. It intensifies their negative emotional association, and will trigger a bigger, badder reaction in the future. It's a problem that can easily compound on itself with the wrong approach. I highly suggest you read up a bit on reactivity. A good place to start can be Jean Donaldson's book "Fight!". She'll talk about desensitization, classical conditioning, thresholds, etc, and will set out specific exercises for you and your dog. Also consider checking out Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. Both authors use positive reinforcement to change how dogs feel about things that previously made them uncomfortable. We also talk a lot about classical conditioning in this thread, so go back to the OP and start reading. So as for what you could have done to handle the situation better... First, your goal when managing your dog is to never have her explode into a reactive fit. You can control reactivity by using distance to your advantage. Each time they react and go over threshold (threshold: the line between where the dog is capable of thought/learning and pure impulse) it becomes more difficult to train them out of it. Off-leash dogs are the bane of reactive dog owners' existence since you can't control the distance between them and your dog. If I were in your position I would have grabbed a fistfull of tasty food and jammed pieces of it into your dogs' mouth as you walked the other direction, trying to increase distance as best you can. It's possible she'll turn down even the most delicious food since when a dog is severely upset they physically become unable to eat. I would keep the leash as loose as possible, and use the food to control your dog, not the tether. In the future make a mental note to be better prepared (always have food on you) and more watchful and try to preempt reactive episodes before they happen. Keep distance, and use the food to keep your dog's attention on you when they're around. Dogs don't have to be best friends with every dog they meet. They simply need to tolerate the presence of other dogs. So don't ever push your luck and have your dog meet others face to face. Keep your goal to merely tolerate other dogs and you'll have a great deal more success. There are quite a few other people on the forum who are dealing with their own reactive dogs, so I'm sure they'll offer some more helpful information. Also consider contacting a professional in your area who's accomplished at tackling reactive dogs from a positive point of view (uses treats, not corrections). There are reactive dog classes you can look into too, which can be hugely helpful.
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Jul 3, 2011 00:58
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My dog was never a reactive barker, but he used to be very tense and intimidating to other dogs that came near, and the off-leash ones that got in his business would often get growled or snapped at. What helped fix this a HUGE amount was changing my attitude. Before, whenever I saw another dog coming near, I would get tense and nervous because I worried it was going to end badly, and I would start to tense up on the leash. Dogs will pick up on that tension and nervousness and it in turn makes them more tense and nervous. I think he felt my tension and thought I was scared of the other dogs, because that's the only time when he'd really get growly is if they tried to come directly up to me. Thanks to PI I realized my attitude needed to change and I stopped being nervous. Every time we see another dog I get all happy and sing-songy, praising my dog every time he looks at another dog or behaves well around one. His attitude changed immensely. He still doesn't want to be BFFs with other dogs, but that's fine, since at least now he behaves himself if they come up to us. I've noticed he also relaxes a lot more if I can pet the other dog first and assure him it's not a threat to me. Obviously every dog is different so it may not have as big an effect on your dog, but it will still help. Of course this is all under the assumption you get nervous/tense when other dogs come near. Skizzles fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jul 3, 2011 |
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Jul 3, 2011 02:10
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Guys, I really need help getting my dog to leave my rats alone. I have three rats in an elevated cage in our main room. The lower level of the cage is about at eye level with Ticker, but the upper level is a bit too high for him to see unless he stands up (which he will). Two of the rats mostly ignore the dog, while one will run to the front of the cage and swipe at his nose if he lets her. I've been working on "leave it" with him, but he's a stubborn hound puppy and it's going slowly. What else should I do?
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Jul 3, 2011 02:22
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I'm planning on getting a puppy in the next few weeks and I've been doing all kinds of research and prep work but I have a concern I haven't seen addressed in any of the reading I've done. I'm temporarily living with my parents who have two older (12 and 13 y/o) Miniature Pinschers. They are very social and friendly toward other dogs so I'm not too concerned about them getting along with my new pup but I am worried about their poor behavior rubbing off. They are generally pretty good dogs but they aren't trained very well and they bark a lot, beg for food at the dinner table, etc. These are things I don't want my new dog doing. If my puppy sees the other dogs getting away with this kind of behavior will it make it more difficult to train her to behave the way I want her to? What is the best way to address this? I plan on doing most of the training with the puppy in a 1 on 1, distraction free environment but I'm worried all the work I'll do will go out the window when she is around the other dogs.
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Jul 3, 2011 04:23
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Traxis posted:I'm planning on getting a puppy in the next few weeks and I've been doing all kinds of research and prep work but I have a concern I haven't seen addressed in any of the reading I've done. I'm temporarily living with my parents who have two older (12 and 13 y/o) Miniature Pinschers. They are very social and friendly toward other dogs so I'm not too concerned about them getting along with my new pup but I am worried about their poor behavior rubbing off. They are generally pretty good dogs but they aren't trained very well and they bark a lot, beg for food at the dinner table, etc. These are things I don't want my new dog doing. If my puppy sees the other dogs getting away with this kind of behavior will it make it more difficult to train her to behave the way I want her to? What is the best way to address this? I plan on doing most of the training with the puppy in a 1 on 1, distraction free environment but I'm worried all the work I'll do will go out the window when she is around the other dogs. I really wouldn't bring home a puppy until you're in a new living situation. The pup absolutely WILL pick up on all the bad behaviors of the other two dogs. It will also make the house even more chaotic, creating even MORE barking and competition for begging for food at the dinner table. Having a group of dogs with different rules in the same house is problematic; it creates a weird dynamic, and in my experience, and some dog usually ends up getting picked on really badly. If you're dead set on getting a puppy, really concentrate on working with the older two over the next few weeks to curb those bad behaviors.
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Jul 3, 2011 04:43
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Traxis posted:I'm planning on getting a puppy in the next few weeks and I've been doing all kinds of research and prep work but I have a concern I haven't seen addressed in any of the reading I've done. I'm temporarily living with my parents who have two older (12 and 13 y/o) Miniature Pinschers. They are very social and friendly toward other dogs so I'm not too concerned about them getting along with my new pup but I am worried about their poor behavior rubbing off. They are generally pretty good dogs but they aren't trained very well and they bark a lot, beg for food at the dinner table, etc. These are things I don't want my new dog doing. If my puppy sees the other dogs getting away with this kind of behavior will it make it more difficult to train her to behave the way I want her to? What is the best way to address this? I plan on doing most of the training with the puppy in a 1 on 1, distraction free environment but I'm worried all the work I'll do will go out the window when she is around the other dogs. Yep. Unfortunately your pup will pick up on the other dogs' "bad" behaviour. One way to deal with it is to step up training for all the dogs. Dogs begging at the dinner table? Teach all of them to chill on their respective beds awaiting a special chew. Dogs barking at the doorbell? Make the doorbell become a cue for all the dogs to run to their respective crates/beds for a reward. Training one on one with your new pup will be very important too. Dogs don't have a concept of fairness, so if you keep a higher set of standards for one compared to the others, well, so be it. The other dogs' behaviour will likely make the pup more difficult to train, but by no means will your training go "out the window".
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Jul 3, 2011 04:47
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So, my pup's a lurcher that I'm hoping to bring on as a useful hunting companion and a big part of training in the first year is getting her retrieval to hand solid. Eventually she will be expected to bring dead or even live rabbits to hand and give them over without fuss. Therefore, along with the basics of leash training, sit/leave it and recall we're working on retrieve even though she's only 8 weeks old. So far, she's getting the hang of what I'm asking her to do and I would say 50% of the time she brings a thrown item right back to me and drops it in front of me, then waits for her treat. I always jackpot when she does this and throw a huge ZOMG I LOVE YOU YAAAY party, which she adores. The issue I'm wondering about is the 45% of the time where she will run to the item, pick it up, shake it, drop it back on the ground and scamper back to me looking for a treat (the other 5% she just wanders away and chases a leaf or whatever because puppy attention spans  ). I figure I have three options;1) Reward only for correct retrieve, don't reward for 'almost!' retrieves 2) Jackpot reward for correct retrieve, give a treat and praise for 'almost!' but don't make a huge fuss 3) Jackpot reward for correct retrieve AND 'almost!' retrieve since at this age I should be making a huge fuss of her for coming to me no matter what. So far I'm going with option 2, and it seems to be working in that she's gone from about 90% almost! 10% correct to 50% almost! to 50% correct in the last week. Just wondering if I'm choosing the best path, or whether either 1) or 3) might be more appropriate. Bear in mind that a solid recall is more important, in the long run, than a solid retrieve. Ideas?
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Jul 3, 2011 21:09
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notsoape posted:Ideas? I would aim for option #1 with a twist. Your question reminded me of this Susan Garrett blog entry: Non Reward Markers: Reducing the Use. You're not using a non-reward marker (NRM) per se, but you are withholding rewards for incorrect behaviour. She's all about build the value, test the value. Using her terminology, I would guess that you might be rushing the value building part. Using the language of the article (might want to read it now or else I'll sound like a crazy person) let's say: The Yellow Ball: A retrieve to hand. The Blue Ball: The distance she has to run to get to the object and back. The Red Ball: All the distractions she has to ignore to get to the object and back. You're the putting the blue, yellow and red balls in play, but only want the yellow. She doesn't understand you only want the yellow, so she has to learn through trial and error to ignore the red and blue. As far as your retrieve goes, she may understand you want her to chase the ball, but doesn't understand that the whole crux of the retrieve is the bringing it back to your hand -- she doesn't see the value in it. You're putting the blue and red balls into play way too early when you should be working on her love of the yellow ball. I would build the value through breaking down the retrieve into tiny sections, starting with the return to hand, and backchaining the rest. When you backchain behaviour the part you started with will be the strongest link in the chain. Here's a video to get you started. So if you lay down the whole "put the object in your hand" behaviour before you start tossing it across the room or asking for retrieves outside with distractions you're ensuring that she'll have more successful repetitions of your goal, and less stress and frustration on both your parts. Dogs learn from both their successes and their failures, so the ideal way to train an adult dog is to set them up so you might expect them to fail 10-20% of the time. For a pup it's probably best to make it even easier for them. And remember that your criteria while training is what's going to be reflected in the final behaviour. Having clear criteria early on can only help you in the long run, especially for something as tough as a live animal retrieve. a life less fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jul 3, 2011 |
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Jul 3, 2011 22:08
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So I'm getting ahead of myself as my husband hasn't given the go ahead to adopt this puppy, but I'm wondering how to train her. She's deaf due to abuse from some bastard.  She apparently knows sit in sign language, and I'd like to expand on that. How do I go about training a puppy that can't hear words or clickers? Obviously NILF will be followed with treats and stuff, but does anyone have experience with this?
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Jul 4, 2011 22:52
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Dancingthroughlife posted:So I'm getting ahead of myself as my husband hasn't given the go ahead to adopt this puppy, but I'm wondering how to train her. She's deaf due to abuse from some bastard. Well why not continue with sign language? I knew of someone with a deaf dog. They trained her using a vibration collar to get her attention, and just taught everything else using hand signals.
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Jul 4, 2011 22:55
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Skizzles posted:Well why not continue with sign language? I knew of someone with a deaf dog. They trained her using a vibration collar to get her attention, and just taught everything else using hand signals.  E: Ack they're expensive! Here's an instructable for a cheap homemade collar, though I would worry about the safety. http://www.deafdogs.org/resources/vibracollar.php Great website. Perhaps it would be easier to get her used to vibration through stomping on the ground? Dancingthroughlife fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jul 4, 2011 |
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Jul 4, 2011 23:21
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Dancingthroughlife posted:So I'm getting ahead of myself as my husband hasn't given the go ahead to adopt this puppy, but I'm wondering how to train her. She's deaf due to abuse from some bastard. The good news is that dogs learn body language/hand signals more easily than they learn verbal cues. We tend to rely on verbal because that's what we're best at. You can still marker train. You can use a hand signal, a flashlight, a vibration from a collar or a laser to mark in a very similar way to using a click or a "yes". Here's a page with more info about it. Vibration collars can be pricey, but using one long distance as a cue for "come" will be invaluable. Here's another page I like about training deaf dogs.
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Jul 5, 2011 02:53
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a life less posted:The good news is that dogs learn body language/hand signals more easily than they learn verbal cues. We tend to rely on verbal because that's what we're best at. Very interesting info.
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Jul 5, 2011 03:59
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notsoape posted:So, my pup's a lurcher that I'm hoping to bring on as a useful hunting companion and a big part of training in the first year is getting her retrieval to hand solid. Eventually she will be expected to bring dead or even live rabbits to hand and give them over without fuss. Therefore, along with the basics of leash training, sit/leave it and recall we're working on retrieve even though she's only 8 weeks old. To add to ALL's post, there are two things we've learned to focus on while training retrieve's here too. These are things that we do that have substantially increased Sadie's interest in retrieving both balls and frisbees. #1 - Keep the value of the object/game up. Make it awesome fun (like you're doing), and then stop the game WHILE it's still awesome and fun for the dog. Don't let the dog get bored or disinterested. If this means you do three retrieves and stop, that's fine. The point is that every single retrieve is awesome. In fact, I would even recommend that you end the game on a perfect retrieve if you get one. Jackpot, throw the party, then put the ball up and give the All Done signal. #2 - Demand the actual retrieve. Anytime the dog picks up the target and doesn't immediately head towards you, take off running in the other direction. This will trigger the chase game, then go down on a knee facing away and he/she ought to come to you with the target. This way you're training that the ball ALWAYS gets brought to you, no matter what, because you're not giving the dog the opportunity to do anything else.
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Jul 5, 2011 14:48
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It's that time again, for another crazydog update. I hope people don't mind that I write so much about Major and our vet behaviorist experiences. Hearing about other people going through this really helped me decide to give our doctor a call and I hope hearing about my work and struggles might help someone else. We've now been seeing the vet behaviorist for 6 months and its such a world of difference. Reading back on my first entries in his behavior log makes me wonder how I lived with him for the 5 months before I started seeing our doctor. He was rushing windows, barking hysterically, howling non-stop in the car, and pacing around the house endlessly. About a month and a half ago we decided to switch Major from prozac to zoloft because he wasn't eating at all and was rapidly losing weight. The med switch hit him hard and he went a little nuts. He was super noise sensitive, went back to pacing and panting all day, and even ended up biting my grandma. I was pushing to go back to prozac because he didn't eat but he was so good. The Dr. told me to just stick it out and things would get better and what do you know, she was right. We did increase his dosage so he's on 75 mg a day but he's back to being the awesome dog he was on prozac but he's still eating and not as sedate. He can focus on training sessions and seems to be picking things up more quickly, probably because he's not worrying the whole time. The best improvement is that he's able to just nap and not badger me to take him out every 45 minutes all day. The pacing can really make you nuts after a while. The car is still a struggle, although we continue to make progress. We can now drive for 10-12 minutes without a total meltdown, even when his manners minder jams and he's not getting rewarded. This month I'm trying to talk to him more while we're driving. He knows "settle" and hearing me tell him to calm down and that it's ok seems to help him out when he's starting to ramp up the anxiety. The Dr. also wants to me brainstorm ways to use his very strong predatory drives to reward him in the car. Hunting is so much more rewarding to him than food and she thinks now that he's more operant that we should look for new ways to reward him. I need something like a "mouse in the house" for dogs. She's also lending me her copy of "Crate Games" and we're going to work on that with the car crate. Next month Major is due to go to the vet for shots and a blood panel to make sure his meds are messing up his liver. The vet is 30 minutes away so we have a lot of practice to do before then. The vet behaviorist thinks we can do it though and is cheerleading me along. Some day we will get off campus and have a good time like a normal person and dog.
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Jul 6, 2011 00:35
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I've been dogsitting since Sunday, and I'm been trying to teach Zoe not to PULL LIKE CRAZY whenever we go out for a walk. She's a ~70-lb Cattle Dog/Lab/German Shepherd mix so I'm often leaning my full weight back against the leash to avoid getting dragged and my hands and arms are really sore after every walk. I tried turning around and going the other way as soon as she pulled but it turns out she doesn't care which way we're going just so long as we're goinggoinggoing omg let's go hurry upppp!!!!. Now I just stop, then start again (while praising) as soon as the leash is relaxed and despite her ADD-type personality she's doing REALLY well at figuring out that pulling against the leash doesn't get her places. She's getting really good at walking in pace with me, which is so nice I have a silly question though, how do I handle road crossings? I can't stop in the middle of the road, obviously, and I can't avoid crossing roads to get to the bike path. It seems like she'll be doing fine, pulling once in a while along the sidewalk, then I have to let her pull me across a road crossing and she instantly regresses into omg wassat let's go sniff it omg another dog let's go say hi!!!!!! mode and starts trying to yank me around. Is there any solution to this? I know since I've only got her for a week this might seem a bit silly but I'd love for her owners to come home to a more enjoyable dog to take for a walk. Here she is being photogenic, then distracted.  
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Jul 7, 2011 23:18
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Apidae posted:I have a silly question though, how do I handle road crossings? I can't stop in the middle of the road, obviously, and I can't avoid crossing roads to get to the bike path. It seems like she'll be doing fine, pulling once in a while along the sidewalk, then I have to let her pull me across a road crossing and she instantly regresses into omg wassat let's go sniff it omg another dog let's go say hi!!!!!! mode and starts trying to yank me around. Haha, Lola tried this! Once she realised that she could pull on roads, for a while she would be a little bitch about it, and since the two main roads between my house and our park are really busy I couldn't stop. What I had to do was find some really quiet roads, make sure they're perfectly clear, and then go. We had a cue to cross the road, so I gave that, and stopped each time she pulled. Progressively started crossing busier roads, using food lures at the busiest when I had to get her across quickly as possible without letting her pull. She's pretty good now, and only loses her head a couple of times on the walk to the park, because she's so excited and wants to gogogo.
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Jul 7, 2011 23:24
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I would suggest a prong collar. I had the same issue with a 65 lb German Shepherd rescue and the prong collar solved the problem almost instantly. When I take her for walks now she's near perfect and stays right where I want her to be. It's worth a shot.
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Jul 8, 2011 00:19
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rear end Waffle posted:I would suggest a prong collar. I had the same issue with a 65 lb German Shepherd rescue and the prong collar solved the problem almost instantly. When I take her for walks now she's near perfect and stays right where I want her to be. It's worth a shot. Would you really buy and use a prong collar on someone else's dog that you are dogsitting for a week?
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Jul 8, 2011 00:22
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Fraction posted:Would you really buy and use a prong collar on someone else's dog that you are dogsitting for a week? Absolutely. Why not? It's not like a choke collar or anything. I think it's actually safer to be controlled on a prong than pulling like crazy on a flat collar. At least that's been my experience. There are a lot of misconceptions about these collars.
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Jul 8, 2011 00:24
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rear end Waffle posted:Absolutely. Why not? It's not like a choke collar or anything. I think it's actually safer to be controlled on a prong than pulling like crazy on a flat collar. At least that's been my experience. There are a lot of misconceptions about these collars. Putting some effort into training a dog to walk on a flat collar is probably going to be viewed with happiness by the average dog owner - showing a prong collar (which aren't as bad as a choke chain, but if not properly used are still not great, and also seem to rely on aversives rather than positive reinforcement) and saying that you had been walking their dog on that probably won't stand you in good stead. You may even not be hired again; those things don't look like nice tools to use, after all. I would be pissed as hell if someone I'd hired to look after my dog decided to use a prong collar on any of my dogs, especially if they didn't speak to me at length first before doing so, and had made an exhaustive effort first to use positive reinforcement to curb the pulling problem. As a disclaimer, I haven't used a prong collar. I think there might be a US/UK divide on that--I see dogs on flat collars, back-clip harness or (unfortunately) even choke chains, but I've never seen a dog on a prong. I've heard a lot about them though, both positive and negative, so I could be talking completely out my rear end! E: VVV Thanks notsoape, that explains why I haven't seen them! Fraction fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jul 8, 2011 |
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Jul 8, 2011 00:37
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Prongs used to be illegal here, afaik they still are.
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Jul 8, 2011 00:48
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rear end Waffle posted:Absolutely. Why not? It's not like a choke collar or anything. I think it's actually safer to be controlled on a prong than pulling like crazy on a flat collar. At least that's been my experience. There are a lot of misconceptions about these collars. While it can be less damaging to the trachea than a choke, prongs can increase reactivity and in my opinion should only be used by someone instructed on proper fit and use by a professional trainer. I would be pissed as hell if someone put one on my dog without my permission. Completely unrelated edit: The behaviorist was totally right. I tossed Major a squeaky ball to gnaw in the car and it kept him totally occupied for a 15 minute car ride. He even chose the ball over treats. Now I just need to find one that will hold up to dog carnage. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 8, 2011 |
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Jul 8, 2011 00:51
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I recently watched a friend's dog and had the same problem. 80 lbs dog, never learned how not to pull, and could drag me everywhere. Stopping wasn't really getting through to this dog and plus I wasn't going to be watching him long enough to make a difference, so what I did was just get some irresistible treats and held them in view by my chest and kept walking. Doggie soon learned to walk by my side. Normally I would phase out bribing like that with my own dog pretty quickly, but his family wasn't going to follow through with any training, so I just bribed the whole time. Didn't get pulled once. Oh and this dog had on a choke chain. He had gotten used to it and still pulled like mad (they said it was worse without it). I've never heard of anyone using one (or a prong) to teach a dog to not pull, it usually just gets them to pull a little less. I told them how my childhood dog developed a tumor on her neck from pulling her whole life (on a regular collar), but I doubt they'll try any real training. Which sucks, the dog would be easy to train I think. And I would be PISSED if someone I asked to watch my dog used pretty much any kind of harsh punishment or aversive.
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Jul 8, 2011 01:00
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I guess I just don't see it as a harsh punishment. I was shown how to use it by a local dog trainer, and the group class I go to even has little yorkies with these collars. It took me a while to change my own impression, but the results are what convinced me. I used to have a dog that pulled like crazy and would lunge after other dogs, and now after working with her using the collar, a clicker, and some hot dogs, she's great and it didn't take long to see improvements. She shows no fear of the collar and a slight pop is just the right amount to get her attention. She does well now on a flat collar as well, but I still use the prong because she does just a little better on it. It's not a magic fix or anything, but I think it's a valid tool when used correctly. Still probably a good idea to run it past the owner first. And I'm sure you can get the same results without one. That's the beauty of dog training. There's tons of different methods that work.
Ass Waffle fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jul 8, 2011 |
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Jul 8, 2011 01:23
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Apidae posted:I have a silly question though, how do I handle road crossings? I can't stop in the middle of the road, obviously, and I can't avoid crossing roads to get to the bike path. It seems like she'll be doing fine, pulling once in a while along the sidewalk, then I have to let her pull me across a road crossing and she instantly regresses into omg wassat let's go sniff it omg another dog let's go say hi!!!!!! mode and starts trying to yank me around. For crossing the road I would probably cheat a bit and stick a treat on the dog's nose. It's pretty important that she not "fail" and pull and rehearse the improper behaviour, but it's also important that you get your asses out of the way of incoming traffic. Resume whichever training method you prefer when you get to the other side. Personally, I don't like the stop-start method of teaching a dog not to pull. Sometimes when I'm lazy I'll use it with Cohen. But I find I get infinitely better results if I cue an actual heel or a leave it. Ie, I give the dog something to do instead of simply saying "don't pull". Or do like Kiri said and cheat the whole time -- if the training is going to slide when the dog is returned then why not save your arm some stress and use treats liberally? rear end Waffle posted:I guess I just don't see it as a harsh punishment. I was shown how to use it by a local dog trainer, and the group class I go to even has little yorkies with these collars. It took me a while to change my own impression, but the results are what convinced me. I used to have a dog that pulled like crazy and would lunge after other dogs, and now after working with her using the collar, a clicker, and some hot dogs, she's great and it didn't take long to see improvements. She shows no fear of the collar and a slight pop is just the right amount to get her attention. She does well now on a flat collar as well, but I still use the prong because she does just a little better on it. It's not a magic fix or anything, but I think it's a valid tool when used correctly. Still probably a good idea to run it past the owner first. And I'm sure you can get the same results without one. That's the beauty of dog training. There's tons of different methods that work. That's about right. Used properly they're just another training tool like a head halter or a clicker. However they're really easy to use improperly and the dog can get abused (intentionally or unintentionally). All tools should be used in conjunction with training, and like all tools your objective should be to get the tool off your dog as soon as you possibly can via said training. Otherwise it becomes a crutch. Prongs are okay for impulse control issues (not great, but...) but they're completely inappropriate for any sort of fear and/or aggression -- sometimes it's difficult for Joe Dog Owner to differentiate one from the other. (Then there's the issue of when excitement leads to frustration and reactivity...) Basically it's a better idea to approach loose leash walking via other less punitive methods.
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Jul 8, 2011 01:34
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If I were to buy her anything new kind of collar or leash I'd buy her a front-clip harness. If her owners are interested in keeping the leash training up I will suggest they buy one. She jumps on people at the smallest provocation and she's smart as hell so I've been a little reluctant to use treats. I've mostly broken her of the habit of jumping on me but I can totally see her figuring that she can jump and grab treats out of my hand. I'll give it a try though, thanks! As for your other suggestions, a life less, she doesn't know "heel" and doesn't really know anything else other than "sit", so I'm not sure what else I'd give her to do. Right now a walk for her means "omg I get to go smell all these things all over the place as fast as possible" while dragging someone behind her. Her owners have been paying me to take her for walks for a while now, but that's just an hour at a time and they didn't ask for me to leash train her. She has so much energy I usually get her to the bike path and running as soon as possible just to burn off some energy. I figured with the week I had her all to myself I could spend as much time as I like trying to leash train her without worrying about burning through an hour before getting her any real exercise. If someone's paying me to exercise their dog for an hour, I'd rather spend as much of that time getting the dog running and tired out rather than training  Her owners are an older couple, I'd really like to show them that they can train her to walk nicely so they're not getting dragged around for the next 15 years. I'm also excited about the opportunity to try out some basic dog training techniques, it seems like anything I've tried with my roommates' Chihuahua gets undone the same day. Thanks for all the advice
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Jul 8, 2011 02:50
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I'm going back home to visit my family in a couple of weeks. She has a 5 year old lab mix, I will be bringing my two year old lurcher with me. My dog is friendly with other dogs so long as they don't get aggressive with her or me. Sometimes she is "too friendly" and annoys other dogs. My mom seems to think that her dog may not be too happy about the new visitor, but isn't aggressive to other dogs usually. I guess I'm just wondering the best way to introduce the two of them. I feel like this could go poorly if we do it wrong, so I need some advice. If they don't get along, my dog crates fine, so we'll just rotate the dogs and deal for a few days, but it would be nice to be able to have them just chill. They won't be left alone unsupervised in any case.
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Jul 8, 2011 05:08
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Silver Nitrate posted:I'm going back home to visit my family in a couple of weeks. She has a 5 year old lab mix, I will be bringing my two year old lurcher with me. My dog is friendly with other dogs so long as they don't get aggressive with her or me. Sometimes she is "too friendly" and annoys other dogs. My mom seems to think that her dog may not be too happy about the new visitor, but isn't aggressive to other dogs usually. I guess I'm just wondering the best way to introduce the two of them. I went to a seminar on multiple dog households a little while ago. I'll jot down some of my notes from it. - Introduce dogs via parallel walking (start across the street, then close distance) - Introduce on neutral territory. - The three triggers in any dog fight are 1) space 2) resources and 3) excitement. - Don't let dogs get stuck in small spaces with each other, and be aware of a dog's space "bubble". - Don't leave possibly valuable items around the dogs (dogs decide what is valuable, not us) - Keep excitement level low, and have methods to contain, separate and calm dogs if necessary. - Keep dogs separated when feeding. - Forced alone/calm time via the use of tether stations on a dog bed, plus a long lasting chew. - Ensure each dog gets one on one time with handler. - Interrupt the following: hard stare, growling, stiffening/freezing, snarling, blocking, crate supervising. - Mark and reinforce the following: looking away, turning aside, yawning, paw lifting, relinquishing spot or toy, body shakes. - When introducing a new dog at home, take old dog out, set up new dog in a room with their crate plus an x-pen (or other separator) to allow plenty of space plus an area to retreat to if feeling stressed. Keep them separated until they're visibly relaxed, then you can remove the gate. You say your dog is "too friendly", so I would be mindful of both space and excitement issues. In a perfect world the two dogs would get along like bestest friends forever. In an ideal world, the two dogs would coexist peacefully and not bug the crap out of each other. Try to encourage your dog to ignore the other (and vice versa) if you sense any tension, and reinforce the hell out of her if she chooses to do so voluntarily. Apidae posted:I'll give it a try though, thanks! As for your other suggestions, a life less, she doesn't know "heel" and doesn't really know anything else other than "sit", so I'm not sure what else I'd give her to do. I was more suggesting that you actively train loose leash walking or heeling via some of the methods outlined in this thread (and linked in post 4 of the OP). Mental exercise can be just as exhausting as physical, so if you give the dog a good mental work out he should just pass out when he gets home. But if you're finding success in how you've been approaching it by all means continue!
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Jul 8, 2011 14:29
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I have a few questions! We have a 10 week old Cardigan Corgi, Orbit, who is now really good at Sit and Down, and almost has the Fetch game down (he brings it back only like 70%, but he does know he has to Sit every single time before we ever throw anything). I've also been able to do impulse control games with him and put treats on his paw and have him leave them alone. 1. What's a good next thing to teach him? A lot of books I read say you can't really do much complicated training until 12 or 14 weeks. Should we not try to do any more "formal" tricks, and just focus on impulse control/ bite inhibition/ etc? 2. We have a cat, Gravity. This cat is the most gentle, laid back, calm, awesome cat ever, but is also very playful. We have our living room/kitchen puppy proofed and fenced off, and have the puppy in an ex-pen a lot of the time, but we also let him out for supervised play. Whenever he's out and about and Gravity comes into the room, Orbit will jump at him and wrestle and play. He's chewing on Gravity's head/ ears a lot. Gravity just sits and takes it, then eventually gets tired and pushes him away with a paw or runs out of the room. We're conflicted about letting this carry on. On one hand, Gravity doesn't really seem to care at all, and in some cases will initiate the play. On the other hand, it doesn't seem too good to allow Orbit to think it's ok to pounce on another creature and put it's head in his mouth almost EVERY SINGLE TIME. What do you guys think? 3. Orbit has started to try to herd my boyfriend and I. When we take him outside to use the bathroom, he's very good on the leash, but after he poops he'll get the zoomies and get really excited and want to run and play. We'll play with him and run around on the leash or throw balls for him, but eventually it leads to him biting at our feet whenever we try to walk anywhere. He's much worse with my boyfriend with this than me, but he's getting worse with me too. He does it inside SOMETIMES but very rarely. I think it's probably because he's bored and restless and wants to play and have fun, and is OUTSIDE YAY!!! but be hasn't had all his vaccinations yet, so we can't take him for long walks or do much other than run around in circles in the same little front lawn area that we have. Biting at people's feet is DEFINITELY something we need to train out of him but if we try to distract him with toys, he ignores it, if we stand still, he bites our feet, and if we try to walk away, he gets even more excited. If we pick him up and take him inside he squirms and yelps and gives us a hard time.
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Jul 8, 2011 15:31
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aliceamadee posted:1. What's a good next thing to teach him? A lot of books I read say you can't really do much complicated training until 12 or 14 weeks. Should we not try to do any more "formal" tricks, and just focus on impulse control/ bite inhibition/ etc? I can't help with 2 (only dogs in my household - I can only say that if all parties seem happy with it, that's probably fine), but I can offer some ideas for 1 and 3! 1 - I didn't read that memo then! Lola knew sit, touch (target hand with nose) and target (target end of a target stick with nose) before she knew down. She also knew 'bang, bang' and we'd done some work on stay before she was 12-14 weeks. I'd say anything goes, as long as it's fun and doesn't involve walking upright on hind legs or jumping too much. 3 - Your pup needs to learn that nipping ends playtime. As soon as he nips, squeal and turn away with your arms crossed. If he ignores you or keeps nipping, try to stand near your back door so you can just walk in the house and leave him alone for five seconds (or put him inside for five seconds, if your yard is unsate). As soon as he's calmer, ie three seconds have passed without him trying to nip, play continues.
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Jul 8, 2011 15:39
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Fraction posted:I can't help with 2 (only dogs in my household - I can only say that if all parties seem happy with it, that's probably fine), but I can offer some ideas for 1 and 3! We do nipping = end of playtime inside. We turn our backs, squeal, pull away, put him in the ex-pen if he continues, etc. It's harder outside because we're in an apartment complex on the second floor. We CAN'T leave him alone, and we have to get him up two flights of stairs while he's OBSESSED with nipping at us. If we pick him up when all he wants to do is herd our feet, he's nipping at us while we're carrying him. It's not just fun-and-play nips, he's literally trying to HERD OUR FEET. Which makes sense, because he's a herding dog! But it's a different behavior than inside excited-so-i-nip playing. I think we need something more than just "everything stops" and need to train him to do something else/ herd something else? instead.
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Jul 8, 2011 15:44
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aliceamadee posted:We do nipping = end of playtime inside. We turn our backs, squeal, pull away, put him in the ex-pen if he continues, etc. It's harder outside because we're in an apartment complex on the second floor. We CAN'T leave him alone, and we have to get him up two flights of stairs while he's OBSESSED with nipping at us. If we pick him up when all he wants to do is herd our feet, he's nipping at us while we're carrying him. It's not just fun-and-play nips, he's literally trying to HERD OUR FEET. Which makes sense, because he's a herding dog! But it's a different behavior than inside excited-so-i-nip playing. I think we need something more than just "everything stops" and need to train him to do something else/ herd something else? instead. What about setting up an x-pen or something in the yard (or bringing a collapsible x-pen or similar when you bring him down)? If he nips, you could pop him in that until he's calmed down. I've heard a lot of people treat herding nipping the same as excitement nipping with great results, though of course your pup needs to be getting enough exercise. Speaking of which how much exercise does Orbit get? And how old is he? Corgis are notoriously high energy - they're like collies with their legs chopped off, and need a similar level of exercise.
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Jul 8, 2011 15:50
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Fraction posted:What about setting up an x-pen or something in the yard (or bringing a collapsible x-pen or similar when you bring him down)? If he nips, you could pop him in that until he's calmed down. I've heard a lot of people treat herding nipping the same as excitement nipping with great results, though of course your pup needs to be getting enough exercise. like I said, we're in a apartment complex. I can't carry a puppy and an ex-pen down 2 flights of stairs by myself every time he needs to poop. Also, like I said, he's 10 weeks old and hasn't had all his shots yet. We try to run him around inside as much as we can, but we are in a VERY high dog area and even bringing him outside to poop is exposing him to other dog's poop (we find it all over the place). I'm sure things will get a lot better once we can go on walks, but we're 2-3 weeks out from that and I don't want to just ignore the behavior completely. *edit to say: i don't mean to sound snippy! i KNOW he needs more exercise, and it would be rad if we had a yard, but those just aren't possibilities until he has his shots
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Jul 8, 2011 15:56
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aliceamadee posted:like I said, we're in a apartment complex. I can't carry a puppy and an ex-pen down 2 flights of stairs by myself every time he needs to poop. Also, like I said, he's 10 weeks old and hasn't had all his shots yet. We try to run him around inside as much as we can, but we are in a VERY high dog area and even bringing him outside to poop is exposing him to other dog's poop (we find it all over the place). I'm sure things will get a lot better once we can go on walks, but we're 2-3 weeks out from that and I don't want to just ignore the behavior completely. Could you not leave something in the yard or whatnot that you could pop him in? Even a cardboard box with high sides, or a pole to tether him to, could work. You could even tie his leash to a streetlight or something. Do you live in an area with high risk of parvo? Waiting until 12-13 weeks old seems crazy to me, personally (parvo doesn't seem to be a thing in the UK in comparison to some areas of the US), for socialisation as much as anything. Does your pup get fed his meals from bowls? If so, try using his meals for mental exercise. If you're stuck in a small area until he can be walked, mental exercise will be your best friend! The more tired he is, the less likely he is to get revved up and forget he's not supposed to herd you (which you're showing him by squealing and ignoring him).
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Jul 8, 2011 16:05
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Fraction posted:Could you not leave something in the yard or whatnot that you could pop him in? Even a cardboard box with high sides, or a pole to tether him to, could work. You could even tie his leash to a streetlight or something. not that we can leave out and about, no. we could bring something out for structured play time, but not 24/7 in our common front yard. our management company would throw a fit. Fraction posted:Do you live in an area with high risk of parvo? Waiting until 12-13 weeks old seems crazy to me, personally (parvo doesn't seem to be a thing in the UK in comparison to some areas of the US), for socialisation as much as anything. Yes- there have been recent cases of parvo an hour or so South of us. Our vet told us absolutely no going near anywhere other dogs have been until he's vaccinated. We're breaking that rule to take him out to pee, but we don't feel comfortable pushing it much further. As for socialization-- he's meeting LOTS of people. there's a public pool across the street from us and a huge parade of kids and families walking by. We've had him for 2.5 weeks and he's met about 60 people. He's also gone to the vet and to my boyfriend's parents house (where there's a big yard he can run around in). Fraction posted:Does your pup get fed his meals from bowls? If so, try using his meals for mental exercise. If you're stuck in a small area until he can be walked, mental exercise will be your best friend! The more tired he is, the less likely he is to get revved up and forget he's not supposed to herd you (which you're showing him by squealing and ignoring him). yes, but he doesn't wolf his food down in one go. I tried training him with his kibble and he got too distracted and didn't care about the kibble enough. Giving him a mix of kibble and various kinds of treats so he doesn't know which one he'll get has been working a lot better. I work from home, so I've been spending ~10 minutes training him every couple hours, and then when my boyfriend comes home from work around 6 it's all play and training until bedtime.
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Jul 8, 2011 16:15
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Silver Nitrate posted:I'm going back home to visit my family in a couple of weeks. She has a 5 year old lab mix, I will be bringing my two year old lurcher with me. My dog is friendly with other dogs so long as they don't get aggressive with her or me. Sometimes she is "too friendly" and annoys other dogs. My mom seems to think that her dog may not be too happy about the new visitor, but isn't aggressive to other dogs usually. I guess I'm just wondering the best way to introduce the two of them. I agree with the other poster that your goal is to get the two dogs to peacefully ignore each other. Encouraging them to interact can be counter-productive. Make sure that the dogs have plenty of space to avoid eachother, including crates that are at least separated by 10+ feet of space. Making sure each dog gets plenty of exercise, separately if needed, will also go a long way towards peace in the house. I would strongly recommend introducing them only after they've each had a vigorous exercise session; they'll be far more relaxed and in a better mindset to just chill out together. quote:1. What's a good next thing to teach him? A lot of books I read say you can't really do much complicated training until 12 or 14 weeks. Should we not try to do any more "formal" tricks, and just focus on impulse control/ bite inhibition/ etc? As far as bite inhibition goes, make sure that you're never playing with your hands or feet, and that the dog's teeth are always directed towards a toy. Figure out ways to direct that heeling instinct elsewhere. We used to drag an empty 2L bottle on a string for the dogs to herd and pounce on, and they absolutely loved it, though this is only a safe toy when you're there to supervise (you don't want your pup eating string, of course). I prefer not to make a squealing noise, but I do a loud, angry noise that sort of sounds like "Enngh!" or kinda like a buzzer. I think it's more effective and authoritative than a squeal, especially when paired with my "I'm serious as gently caress" body language. quote:2. Pouncing on the cat quote:3. Orbit has started to try to herd my boyfriend and I. When we take him outside to use the bathroom, he's very good on the leash, but after he poops he'll get the zoomies and get really excited and want to run and play. We'll play with him and run around on the leash or throw balls for him, but eventually it leads to him biting at our feet whenever we try to walk anywhere. He's much worse with my boyfriend with this than me, but he's getting worse with me too. He does it inside SOMETIMES but very rarely. I think it's probably because he's bored and restless and wants to play and have fun, and is OUTSIDE YAY!!! but be hasn't had all his vaccinations yet, so we can't take him for long walks or do much other than run around in circles in the same little front lawn area that we have. Biting at people's feet is DEFINITELY something we need to train out of him but if we try to distract him with toys, he ignores it, if we stand still, he bites our feet, and if we try to walk away, he gets even more excited. If we pick him up and take him inside he squirms and yelps and gives us a hard time. You're 100% right to keep the pup's contact with other dogs as limited as possible until fully vaccinated. Parvo is a big loving deal, though I can understand why people with little direct experience with it might think otherwise. At any rate, herding behavior is a thing you can't really stop outright, so much as shape into something positive. You need to make your feet less interesting than whatever else is going on. Again, redirection to a toy to chase, something to carry in his mouth, whatever you need to do. You can/should also stop playtime before he gets into that "must bite and herd, OMG this is so exciting!" mode. If you need to stop playtime because he's being an rear end in a top hat, don't put up with any squirming/yelping or other antics. rear end in a top hat behavior = you get dumped in the x-pen and ignored, because biting is an automatic end to playtime. Alternatively, if he's still on the leash, put him in a down-stay, and he has to lay there until he's calmed down. One thing that you can do even with the pup's current limitations is use food as a way to wear him out. Raw, meaty bones are hard work, and can take quite awhile to finish up. I like to keep a few lamb bones in the freezer for boring, rainy weekends when my dogs are bouncing off the walls. They'll chew for hours, and then pass the gently caress out for even longer; WIN! There are also a few puzzle toys that I've had good success with - rubbery balls where the kibble falls out one at a time are great, and Nellie (the BC) loved her Tug-a-Jug until she figured out she could gnaw through the rope, and get the kibble out even faster afterwards. Kongs with kibble and frozen peanut butter are popular with most dogs as well. MoCookies fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jul 8, 2011 |
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Jul 8, 2011 16:41
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Can anyone recommend a good trainer in the Manahawkin/LBI area or Bergen County/Hillsdale areas of NJ? My parents are having a lot of trouble with their GSD mix. She's leash and car reactive and just horrible on a leash. I've done some work with them but this is pretty out of my league and I have a hard time teaching them because they're my parents. I know it all stems from the dog not getting enough exercise and not being socialized properly. My mom would love to get involved with an all breed lure coursing club in the area but can't because of Tilly's reactivity. They've used  Bark Busters in the past and it just made things worse (surprise surpise). Please help me find someone to help them and their dog.E: Think I may have found someone. http://www.teacherspetnj.com/ SuperTwo fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jul 8, 2011 |
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Jul 8, 2011 17:28
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