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a life less posted:I went to a seminar on multiple dog households a little while ago. I'll jot down some of my notes from it. Thank you very, very much!
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Jul 8, 2011 21:09
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Odd and funny thing that cropped up today, trying to train two dogs at the same time: Erik was out of the house for the earlier half of the day, because he was being groomed. Darla was pretty mopey and obviously missed playing with him - they still play like gangbusters pretty much all day, every day. Once he got home, Erik and Darla were playing, and at one point I picked Erik up for no particular reason. Darla gets visibly annoyed and excited when I interrupt their playing, moreso if I do it by picking up Erik rather than her. I decided to use Erik as a big 15 pound silver haired dog treat. Guess what, Darla will do a dozen tricks to get him back so she could play with him some more. I guess I shouldn't be terribly surprised, in retrospect, but I thought it was pretty funny and unexpected. edit: this seems to have gotten missed: Azrael Alexander posted:When I am in or on my bed, and someone else approaches me, he will run into the room if he isn't already there and place himself between me and the other person. If the other person leaves right away he will not persist, but if they linger or try to touch me in any way he gets very uptight and growls. He has snapped at both my mother and my EX, which is the thing that really worries me. He has never bitten and will back off if I scold him, but the behavior is not stopping and rather, seems to be getting worse. You don't ever want to scold or otherwise punish behavior that warns of an impending bite. The dog is doing you a favor and letting you know that whatever is bothering him, if it keeps up, is going to result in bodily harm. Scolding him for growling or snapping won't prevent the eventual bodily harm, it'll just suppress the warning signs he's trying to give you. What you want to do is find out what is triggering the anxiety or fear or resource guarding or whatever it is, and work on that, e.g. by conditioning the dog that it is okay and even GOOD to have people approach you when you're together on the bed. You're sitting together on the bed, and gradually have a person approach - before he has time to become agitated, start giving him tasty treats. Be conservative and if he gets agitated anyway, slow things down and back up a step - maybe have a person just make noise in the hall, then give him a treat. Stick their head in the door, give him a treat. Stand in the doorway, give him a treat. If he growls or snaps, slow down and back up again. Don't expect to fix this in one sitting either, it may take weeks or more, and maybe consider talking to a professional trainer/behavior modification specialist. If you get outside help, avoid anybody recommending punishment approaches. IMO if you have this kind of problem with the bed, I'd bet you'll have it in a variety of situations besides, and just commanding him not to be anxious/afraid/guarding is really not going to fix the problem, it'll only hide it. e2: well no, it didn't get missed did it - I'm saying pretty much the same thing, just with more words. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Jul 9, 2011 |
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Jul 9, 2011 02:39
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I've got two questions. First, is it ever too late to condition with a clicker? I've got a 3.5 year old Bernese Mountain Dog/Border Collie or GSD(?) mix. He's great with basic commands, especially when he's paying attention to me, but I'm having a hard time training him in more distracting environments. His recall outside is especially poor, and it makes me fear for his safety. I did try clicker training with him when I first got him, but its been two years since I lost the clicker in a move and I never replaced it. Also, can I click and reward with any reinforcement? A variety of treats, a toy, etc? He stops responding to food when he's had enough, but is always up for a toy and play. I would try giving him super amazing new foods, but in the past that has lead inexorably to loose stool in the middle of the night. Just wondering if I can move from click/treat to click/toy as a training session proceeds. Second, we recently got a second dog, a Dachshund mix, who responds to food like crazy. I suspect he'll glom on to the clicker in no time if I give him his kibble and click one piece at a time. Will it confuse the dogs if I click/treat one but not the other? Right now to train them, my wife and I separate them and work on one at time, but when one of us isn't home that's not really feasible. I guess I'm just concerned that the clicker conditioning will fade if we are clicking at one's actions but not the other's.
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Jul 10, 2011 20:18
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Farrok posted:I've got two questions. First, is it ever too late to condition with a clicker? I've got a 3.5 year old Bernese Mountain Dog/Border Collie or GSD(?) mix. He's great with basic commands, especially when he's paying attention to me, but I'm having a hard time training him in more distracting environments. His recall outside is especially poor, and it makes me fear for his safety. I did try clicker training with him when I first got him, but its been two years since I lost the clicker in a move and I never replaced it. Also, can I click and reward with any reinforcement? A variety of treats, a toy, etc? He stops responding to food when he's had enough, but is always up for a toy and play. I would try giving him super amazing new foods, but in the past that has lead inexorably to loose stool in the middle of the night. Just wondering if I can move from click/treat to click/toy as a training session proceeds. My older dog caught on to what a clicker was at about age ten, after never having even seen one before, so it should definitely be possible to re-condition him with it. I use a click primarily to mean 'whatever you just did earned you a cookie', BUT that is only because I'm not handy enough to hold a ball, or something (I use my verbal marker of 'yes!' instead). You could definitely click+reinforce with anything - opening a door he wants to go through, a couple of minutes of bellyrubbing, throwing a ball, giving a piece of kibble, giving a slab of chicken--whatever. Farrok posted:Second, we recently got a second dog, a Dachshund mix, who responds to food like crazy. I suspect he'll glom on to the clicker in no time if I give him his kibble and click one piece at a time. Will it confuse the dogs if I click/treat one but not the other? Right now to train them, my wife and I separate them and work on one at time, but when one of us isn't home that's not really feasible. I guess I'm just concerned that the clicker conditioning will fade if we are clicking at one's actions but not the other's. Imo, it will definitely confuse the dogs if both are with you and you're only clicking one. You could either put them in different rooms when training, or you could use different clickers - one a button clicker (like this), the other one of those metal ones (like this). They will make different sounds, so as long as you remember which clicker is for which dog you'll be fine. Or you could try one of those two-tone clickers, but I think they're usually more expensive.
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Jul 10, 2011 20:24
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Farrok posted:I've got two questions. First, is it ever too late to condition with a clicker? I've got a 3.5 year old Bernese Mountain Dog/Border Collie or GSD(?) mix. He's great with basic commands, especially when he's paying attention to me, but I'm having a hard time training him in more distracting environments. His recall outside is especially poor, and it makes me fear for his safety. I did try clicker training with him when I first got him, but its been two years since I lost the clicker in a move and I never replaced it. Also, can I click and reward with any reinforcement? A variety of treats, a toy, etc? He stops responding to food when he's had enough, but is always up for a toy and play. I would try giving him super amazing new foods, but in the past that has lead inexorably to loose stool in the middle of the night. Just wondering if I can move from click/treat to click/toy as a training session proceeds. Most of this will just echo what Fraction posted. You can absolutely start fresh with the clicker with an adult dog. You'll be surprised how quickly they catch on. Clicker training is a more refined version of marker training. Basically a marker (provided by you) signals that reinforcement is on its way. Reinforcement can be anything and everything the dog enjoys -- you're certainly not limited to food. I think it's ideal if you use both food and play during training sessions. Food is convenient and tends to have a calming effect on the dog. Play is fun and tends be arousing and exciting (duh). If you mix both into a single training session you'll be keeping it interesting while simultaneously building value for both reinforcers. I tend to use a click + food for precision training and a "yes" + play for more casual training, or sport. Regarding the two dogs, I would train each separately when using the clicker. It'll be when you and your dog are one on one that the real training takes place. Then you could condition each to their own marker word if you feel like you could keep them straight. Or you can start a marker with each dog's name ("Fido, yes"). It's not as precise, but again most of the precision will be achieved one on one. Honestly I would just feel it out and see what develops naturally. As you get used to it the mechanics will begin to feel more fluid and natural -- when we're first starting out we tend to overthink things.
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Jul 10, 2011 21:03
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I'd like some advice for teaching Psyche a more formal heel. She's pretty drat good about walking at my side (all things considered) and it's something we've worked on a lot because I definitely wanted to establish that reinforcement zone and get her to sit when I stop walking, as sitting is her calm position. I've never put it on cue though and I've never really asked her to do it right. So what I've got now is a dog who will walk at my side, but she might swing out a little or cut me off or sniff the ground or do whatever suits her when I'm not actively asking for her attention. If I stop walking, she will sit, but she may decide sitting in front of me will give her a better view of the dog she wants to bark at. I've tried getting her to stay in position before, but truth is, I'm not sure how best to do that. Ideally, I want to say 'Heel' and have Psyche come to my side no matter what she's doing and walk with me without giving into distractions. She would sit in place when I stop. The book Click to Calm says to start out slowly, take a step, reward dog for following. If dog wanders off or gets ahead, start walking backwards until the dog rejoins you. I can't do this because walking backwards is Psyche's cue to do a backaway. So today I tried this: start with her sitting by my side. Start walking. If she follows at my side (she always follow correctly at the beginning), I say 'Heel' and reward her for walking at my side. When I stop, I started saying 'Stop'. She responded to the Stop cue well, sitting at my side instead of being distracted and wandering a bit before she stopped. I guess I could say Sit too... After doing that for several sessions, I figured I would start her from different positions. Instead of starting sitting by my side, she could be laying or whatever. I would slowly move the cue to before the behavior. Eventually I would start myself in a different positions when she gets that she's supposed to come walk by my side. But what do I do about her wandering or sniffing or cutting me off? Do I stop walking? Change directions? Tell her 'Too bad' (she knows Too Bad, though not as strongly as I'd like)? Tell her 'Heel' again when she gets it to reset the behavior? Sorry if there's a Heeling guide around here somewhere, I only remembered the Loose Leash walking guide. Thanks!
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Jul 10, 2011 23:17
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The first thing that comes to mind is a Susan Garrett tactic. As I've mentioned previously, she's constantly talking about BUILD the value, TEST the value. So you've built the value for the reinforcement zone by your side. You then test the value by doing things like:
So, I would use the method for LLW I posted here with some Garrett thrown into the mix. Start walking backwards yourself and the dog's facing you from the front/side. Starting walking backwards tends to discourage the forging ahead during the first learning stage. Remember you only want to name a behaviour after the dog is offering it reliably. It sounds like you're probably putting a name to it too early. If she wanders or cuts you off, try to use the distraction as an IYC moment. Back away a step and see if Psyche orients to you. If so, huge rewards. If not, move further away and try again. You may find yourself walking backwards for a mile, but stick with it -- it gets easier. When Psyche cuts you off for a distraction she's essentially stealing reinforcement. So try to not allow any reinforcement for that decision, and in the future try to figure out a way that you can grant that reinforcement through you. As in, she sniffed at a lamppost -- next time stop short and get her attention then give the "go sniff" cue (Premack!). Remember that you need to keep your rate of reinforcement up particularly high. Most people reduce the rate way way too early when they should be paying into the value for the RZ. But as you progress keep your criteria clear -- treats can only be doled out if she's behaving average-or-better than normal. What you're asking for is a pretty advanced behaviour, so you'll not likely be able to create it overnight. Try to reduce it to its various components, and then build the value for each component with your dog. Then, as Garrett says, start testing it with distractions. Slowly. Don't be afraid to look like a crazy person by talking to your dog and telling her how wonderful she is. That kind of happy engagement really helps keep a dog clued in to you.
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Jul 11, 2011 00:41
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Need help on how to teach my dog to stack. Having trouble googling what I would consider to be a good source of information, unless all of the "manually move legs into proper position" is as good as it gets, which I usually doubt. It seems like it'd start with getting him to lean forward for a treat, but I have two problems. 1 - He tends to just step forward instead of leaning. I don't have a grooming table to practice on - though now that I am typing it, it dawns on me I can probably use the porch or deck edge. 2 - He's got good restraint. He doesn't even try to take a treat he hasn't earned. So if I put the treat in front of him, it's a little difficult to get him to lean at all. He just stares at me waiting for the go ahead or a prompt. And if I encourage him, letting him know its ok, then he does #1. The more I type it, the more it seems like just using the deck edge will allow me to encourage him to go for a treat but being forced to lean. I just don't know if this is an excessive method for him, or if there is a much simpler way to shape him into position.
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Jul 11, 2011 00:59
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So next week is going to be the start of Operation Strange People Aren't A Big Threat, since I've been putting it off because I am incredibly lazy. Plan of action: Monday- click/treat up to 5 times for one person. Tuesday- c/t up to 4 times for one person. Wednesday- c/t up to 3 times for one person. Thursday- c/t up to 2 times for one person. Friday- c/t 1 time for one person. Saturday- c/t 1 time for two people. Sunday- c/t up to 2 times for three people. I'll be doing two sessions a day, to make full use of Lola's meal kibble as well as high value food. On top of this I'm also going to be sitting in my front yard like a creeper and clicking/treating her for looking at children, weekdays at around half 3 (so sessions will be something like 10-11, 3:30-4:30 and 6-7). At the moment I usually use one to two pieces of low-med value food for each person, and sometimes pass people without anything at all if Lola doesn't care for them, and again sometimes use 3-4 to get past a person that triggers her stronger reactions (eg male, older child/young teen, loud). As well as this, she'll also be getting her daily fetch-walk outside, which usually lasts between 45 mins and an hour depending on time of day and heat. My question is though does this plan seem okay? Or am I rushing stages too much? I'm going back a few steps to make sure Lola 100% understands the game, but I don't want to rush and make her freak out. Obviously if we got to, say, Friday and she was reacting to people more than once or twice (for strong triggers/accidents) in the hour long sessions, I'd take a few steps back.
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Jul 11, 2011 01:19
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I'd slow it down. Remember that the more time you spend building a behavior the stronger that behavior will be. I've never worked with a reactive dog though, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Instead of reducing rewards every day maybe keep the game the same for a couple of days before changing it up on her.
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Jul 11, 2011 01:31
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Luminous posted:Need help on how to teach my dog to stack. Having trouble googling what I would consider to be a good source of information, unless all of the "manually move legs into proper position" is as good as it gets, which I usually doubt. 1 - Instead of using a treat to lure him forward, how about teaching him to touch your hand (or another object) and hold his nose there for a period of time. Gradually the hand target can be faded out. 2 - You can shape a stack. I did a quick google and came up with these links which seem decent: http://www.farmoreboxers.com/Freestacking.htm http://vickironchette.blogspot.com/2009/07/free-stack-training-tools.html It looks like the general plan of attack is to position the dog, build value for the position, then test to see if they can gradually find it on their own. Are you planning on showing your dog?  Fraction posted:
So... what exactly are you trying to do? Are you trying to classically condition Lola? If so, you don't need the clicker. If you're trying to approach it operantly then having a timeline would be kind of... moot. You would simply C/T each time she offered the behaviour you're looking for, and wouldn't withhold a marker at this point in her training. I also think that, while it's good to have a rough idea of how you'd like to proceed, it's unwise to put a lot of stock in schedules. Move at your dog's pace, you know? If you try to rush her you're going to possibly end up with a faulty foundation.
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Jul 11, 2011 01:43
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a life less posted:So, I would use the method for LLW I posted here with some Garrett thrown into the mix. Start walking backwards yourself and the dog's facing you from the front/side. Starting walking backwards tends to discourage the forging ahead during the first learning stage. Thanks for the Susan Garrett stuff, those are interesting tests. Unfortunately though, I can't walk backwards with Psyche as she has previously been taught to do a backaway. When I walk backwards, she's supposed to turn around and come sit in front of me so I can do an emergency hold. It's one of the things my trainer does with reactive dogs. We've practiced backaways enough that in front of me is also a reinforcement zone and she seems to prefer it if I call her to me. Which is why I was trying to introduce a cue to tell her that I wanted her at my side instead of anywhere else. I was hoping if she understood what I wanted better, it would help her in class when the distractions are really big. But maybe that's backwards thinking. I only started the cue today though, so I can stop. quote:If she wanders or cuts you off, try to use the distraction as an IYC moment. Back away a step and see if Psyche orients to you. If so, huge rewards. If not, move further away and try again. You may find yourself walking backwards for a mile, but stick with it -- it gets easier. When Psyche cuts you off for a distraction she's essentially stealing reinforcement. So try to not allow any reinforcement for that decision, and in the future try to figure out a way that you can grant that reinforcement through you. As in, she sniffed at a lamppost -- next time stop short and get her attention then give the "go sniff" cue (Premack!). I do currently do this to get her attention. I back up in an excited way to get her attention back on me without pulling on her, which is a trigger. Then if it's a squirrel or something, I'll let her run toward it as a reward. Most of the time it's a person or dog though and then of course letting her run toward it would put her over threshold. quote:Remember that you need to keep your rate of reinforcement up particularly high. Most people reduce the rate way way too early when they should be paying into the value for the RZ. But as you progress keep your criteria clear -- treats can only be doled out if she's behaving average-or-better than normal. Haha, no problems on the crazy person front. I talk to my dog all the time and when we go to class where her stress level is highest, I pretty much don't stop talking and acting happy the whole time. I'm sure the other handlers are sick of me by now. I guess we should just keep practicing and I should just keep rewarding her for being in the position I want and work on small distractions like sniffing and squirrels. Maybe I'll try stepping sideways instead of backwards and reward like hell if she follows.
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Jul 11, 2011 02:31
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Fraction posted:So next week is going to be the start of Operation Strange People Aren't A Big Threat, since I've been putting it off because I am incredibly lazy. As a life less said, you can't really put a schedule on these things. You can only move as fast as your dog progresses. What you can do to up the ante though, is move from classical conditioning to operant conditioning. Here's what we've done with my highly people reactive dog: start out classical conditioning. I use a clicker for this because it tells my dog a treat is coming, whereas a hand reaching in front of her face can startle her. If she's over threshold, obviously she won't eat and we just leave. When we're at a sub-threshold spot, she starts out by eating the treat without taking her eyes off the threat. She has a tell wherein the hardness of her mouth when she takes the treats tells me how upset she is. If she's super upset, I just keep click/treat for any behavior that isn't freaking out, barking, growling, etc. Lola probably isn't that bad, so you can move onto the next stage which is where the click reorients the dog. I click for looking calmly (I don't ask her to do anything), Psyche looks to me for treat and we have a party. yay! Her attention usually goes back but I keep c/t until she's happy enough to walk away with me or the person leaves. Don't worry about the number of treats at this point, stuff Lola's face if you need to to prevent an unwanted reaction. Once doggie is feeling good about reorienting to you for the treat, then you can start asking for calm behaviors like sitting or looking at you or even turning her back to face you. If you're walking along, just reward her for walking with her focus on you. If you're sitting in your yard doing this, see if you can (slowly) get Lola to the point where she will perform her favorite tricks with you. Or play a game. Anything to distract her if she will be distracted. Distracted dogs will forget about their worries if they are at a point where they can have fun or relax. One of the things we do in class is get the dog to lie down and do massages in the presence of others. Okay, so that part is just sort of molding Lola into how you want her to act when people walk by, one tiny step at a time. The other thing we've done which has been really helpful is enlist friends to come over and throw food to Psyche. We started out really slow, one friend standing still. I lead Psyche to a nearby spot, got her to calm down and as soon as she was calm, food rained from the stranger!! Yay!! Then we worked up to a moving "stranger", etc. The more people you do this with the better and the faster Lola will get over her stranger reactivity. If Lola isn't reactive to your friends she knows, then find some she doesn't and have them imitate the behavior that sets her off. Like bump into them at the park and have treats rain from the "stranger" there. This stuff takes a lot of time to do properly, so don't rush it. Keep the sessions short, an hour is a long time if your dog is stressed out and if you do it three times a day, every day, you may see regression or negative reaction to a particular environment. Use the valuable treats, this is important. Feeding Lola her meals in training is a good idea, but I would use the good stuff for people watching, then back off and tire her out with some fun, regular training in which she gets her kibble. Remember to always try to leave things on a happy note and that you can reward Lola by letting her get away from a stressful thing, like retreating further into your yard after a good reaction. Whew, sorry that was long. I'm not sure exactly where Lola is at, so that's just a recap of what we've been doing. We're going on month 10 now and we had to move to get Psyche to where she is today. I know you just want to have a happy, friendly dog with no restrictions, but it doesn't happen overnight. Probably the most important thing you can do is be patient. 
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Jul 11, 2011 03:02
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is it plausible and okay to teach my dog to not destroy toys? She loves toys, especially stuffed ones, but she can destroy them in no time at all. Sometimes I buy her cheap ones just so she can destroy them, but it's really annoying when you spend $8-10 on a toy for it to be destroyed in less than 5 minutes.
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Jul 11, 2011 03:36
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Fatty Patty posted:is it plausible and okay to teach my dog to not destroy toys? She loves toys, especially stuffed ones, but she can destroy them in no time at all. Sometimes I buy her cheap ones just so she can destroy them, but it's really annoying when you spend $8-10 on a toy for it to be destroyed in less than 5 minutes. Yes. And I don't mean this to sound patronizing, because it really isn't, but, simply don't let your dog do anything destructive with the toy(s) that aren't meant to be destroyed. Means you will have to always monitor your dog with her toys. I know its possible because Atra, my boy, used to demolish plushy toys quickly, putting me in the same mood as you - "why do I bother?" But of course, the difficulty comes to teach your dog not to destroy the toy without making any play "bad" to do. You just need to redirect the play. If she starts looking like she is getting in the mood to tear the toy apart, or to start pulling hair from it, or the like, simply go play with her, using the toy, in a different fashion. For me, whenever I saw Atra starting to chew on a non-chew toy, I just go to him and play a bit of keep away and squeaking the toy. When I couldn't monitor him, I put the toys out of reach, usually right next to me on my desk so that he had to come to me if he wanted to play. And now . . . he is fine with plush toys. He happily squeaks them and does his playful shake, and he will lay down with the toy and just push his nose into it, but doesn't try to chew them apart anymore.
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Jul 11, 2011 03:42
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Fatty Patty posted:is it plausible and okay to teach my dog to not destroy toys? She loves toys, especially stuffed ones, but she can destroy them in no time at all. Sometimes I buy her cheap ones just so she can destroy them, but it's really annoying when you spend $8-10 on a toy for it to be destroyed in less than 5 minutes. We have this problem. The solution was to not let her have anything we didn't want destroyed. The expensive toys are exclusively for us to play with her with actively. When play time is over, the toys go away and/or she is redirected to a toy she can destroy. I'm not sure if this has actually taught her to destroy toys less, but she has stopped trying to rip them apart immediately. She more plays with toys now rather than laying down to tear systematically at the seams.
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Jul 11, 2011 03:45
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a life less posted:1 - Instead of using a treat to lure him forward, how about teaching him to touch your hand (or another object) and hold his nose there for a period of time. Gradually the hand target can be faded out. Hmm, I like the detail in that second link, so that should help. While I do still want to get in to some sort of competitions with Atra, learning to stack isn't really motivated by that at all. I just wanted something simple to teach that I could use to put him into a consistent pose that is easy to do comparisons over time. He got rather pudgy this past winter (yes, I am bad for letting it happen . . . to be fair, the amount of snow was not my fault and I did reduce his food intake  ), and I realized it would be a lot easier for me to see how he is doing with weight loss if I could do comparison shots. Well, that or buy one of those big dog scales :PIt was seeing Cohen in the pose that prompted me to think "gee, that would be really handy for Atra to do when I need . . ." and so, here we are.
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Jul 11, 2011 03:52
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a life less posted:So... what exactly are you trying to do? Are you trying to classically condition Lola? If so, you don't need the clicker. If you're trying to approach it operantly then having a timeline would be kind of... moot. You would simply C/T each time she offered the behaviour you're looking for, and wouldn't withhold a marker at this point in her training. Thanks, now that I think about it a timeline makes not a whole lot of sense. I'll be clicking in beginning stages for looking at people, then clicking for when she looks back at me while we're walking (hence the plan to start slower). I usually already mark/reward for her looking at me after looking at people without reacting. I'll just spend the sessions making sure our foundation is solid this week. She already often looks at me for 4-5 seconds in the presence of most strange people, and I'll usually click that AND her looking away from triggers. Kiri Koli posted:Awesome stuff Lola's around the stage where she will see a trigger, and look back at me in under 2 seconds, and will take treats with a normal mouth. If we get too close, or a person 'suddenly appears' (from out of sight, etc) or if that person holds too many triggers for her she will often be slightly more reluctant to look back at me because, like Psyche, she wants to keep her eyes on the threat. I guess the next stage will be asking for behaviours from her, after this week? I want to try and turn any person at all going past into a potential party time, with jackpots for a particularly good reaction or for when we go past someone she really wants to bark at. I'll shorten the sessions as you said - I forgot that longer sessions can be more stressful. I'll definitely end on a high note, and make sure I'm liberal with treats. There's a whole load of ham and cheese with Lola's name on it. Would it be a good idea next week or so for, when sitting in the yard treating around children leaving school, to give her a filled kong and let her work at that? I have some kong fillings she goes crazy for, and it would take her around ten minutes to eat especially if I hold it (further letting her know that orientating toward me gets her Good Things). Unfortunately with the children (one of her biggest triggers), they'll be out of school for the summer soon, and then I won't have the opportunity to reward her around kids I know will be there. Also, regarding the friendly 'stranger' - of all my friends, only a few live a reasonable distance away (since I commute to university, a lot of people moved elsewhere). Lola knows two of them really well, and did used to like another, which leaves me with maybe two people locally I could use. One of those I've already done some work with indoors when she stayed over, but neither of the two would really be willing to come meet me, stand there and throw treats, and then go. None of my friends are particularly dog savvy so it's hard enough just getting them to not stare at L, etc, when they have come over before. Woah that was a long thing and I'm not sure if half of it even made sense. Thanks you guys though!
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Jul 11, 2011 08:12
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 More webinars Luckily this time they aren't live. You can watch them at your leisure. Garrett has posted a few more webinars. Today's (Monday) is particularly good. I think she's doing a week of them, so I'll try to post links when I remember. Friday's: http://www.puppypeaks.com/sq/6291-old-dog-new-tricks Monday's: http://www.puppypeaks.com/fe/13492-struggles These will likely be posted for 7-10 days then taken down.
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Jul 11, 2011 14:12
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Fraction posted:Lola's around the stage where she will see a trigger, and look back at me in under 2 seconds, and will take treats with a normal mouth. If we get too close, or a person 'suddenly appears' (from out of sight, etc) or if that person holds too many triggers for her she will often be slightly more reluctant to look back at me because, like Psyche, she wants to keep her eyes on the threat. If Lola is consistently looking at you, then yes you can move onto something a little more challenging, keeping in mind that you want to back up a step when a bigger trigger comes by. One of the things that I try to keep in mind is that excitement/arousal and anxiety can be linked pretty close together. So when we were working with friends, we would work up to having the friend move around, having Psyche move around, then up to more exciting things like running. It sounds like you are working with Lola both stationary and on walks. I would probably try something like this next: Lola sees a trigger, looks back at you, you run back a few steps (away from the trigger), calling Lola to you in an excited, happy voice and see if Lola will run to you to get a treat. This does two things: one, you are excited and Lola is excited and you want her to be able to be excited without it bleeding over into anxiety. Two, this puts some space between you and the trigger, teaching Lola how to walk away and reducing her stress level with distance. It's pretty much a variation on the backaways my trainer likes to use and I do it quite often to get Psyche to leave off a trigger without pushing her over the edge by forcing her to come with me. You can stop when Lola gets to you or just turn around and walk the other direction, rewarding while you walk. It's very handy for those triggers that you know are okay now, but if you keep walking closer, it's not going to end well. Also, it's kind of fun, though it probably looks stupid.  quote:I'll shorten the sessions as you said - I forgot that longer sessions can be more stressful. I'll definitely end on a high note, and make sure I'm liberal with treats. There's a whole load of ham and cheese with Lola's name on it. A kong is a good idea, but I would caution against using it too soon. In my experience, when doggie is faced with both something upsetting and an irresistible treat, doggie will eat frantically, trying to finish quickly and keep the threat in sights at the same time. Kongs and other long lasting treats are exciting but they should also be calming. You want Lola to relax and enjoy her kong, so only give it when she's in a good frame of mind. If she's too stressed, then I find popping treats in her mouth works better for warding off a bad reaction. Definitely hold the Kong and don't be afraid to pull it away and only give it back if Lola is eating it calmly, with most of her attention on the kong and a relaxed posture. quote:Also, regarding the friendly 'stranger' - of all my friends, only a few live a reasonable distance away (since I commute to university, a lot of people moved elsewhere). Lola knows two of them really well, and did used to like another, which leaves me with maybe two people locally I could use. One of those I've already done some work with indoors when she stayed over, but neither of the two would really be willing to come meet me, stand there and throw treats, and then go. None of my friends are particularly dog savvy so it's hard enough just getting them to not stare at L, etc, when they have come over before. I know finding good friends to practice with is hard. Most of my friends are academics and academics seem to be mostly cat people in my experience. I have a friend who has been really helpful so far, but we've reached a point where he should be interacting with Psyche in a more normal way (i.e. petting her), but he's a cat person and is understandably unsure and nervous about it. My other friend who would be the most helpful is the one Psyche bit when we first got her...he's said he's willing to help, but he keeps making jokes about how she's going to remember him, so I think he's nervous or I don't want to push the issue. My little tricks for getting people to interact with Psyche involve inviting them over to hang out and then asking one to come a half hour early to throw treats. Or I offer to drive out and meet them at their place. It's hard though, I know, and we haven't had her interact with as many people as we would like at this point. Again, have to be patient because life just doesn't cooperate.
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Jul 11, 2011 14:55
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Kiri koli posted:One of the things that I try to keep in mind is that excitement/arousal and anxiety can be linked pretty close together. So when we were working with friends, we would work up to having the friend move around, having Psyche move around, then up to more exciting things like running. It sounds like you are working with Lola both stationary and on walks. I would probably try something like this next: Lola sees a trigger, looks back at you, you run back a few steps (away from the trigger), calling Lola to you in an excited, happy voice and see if Lola will run to you to get a treat. This does two things: one, you are excited and Lola is excited and you want her to be able to be excited without it bleeding over into anxiety. Two, this puts some space between you and the trigger, teaching Lola how to walk away and reducing her stress level with distance. Thanks! I'll definitely try this. Lola's reactivity does tend to get worse if she's excited. Keeping her calm tends to work best at the moment, but encouraging her to move away might help. She naturally walks away from things if she is trying to control herself - her 'leave it' is basically that she just moves immediately away from whatever it is, and she pretty much taught herself that. Kiri Koli posted:Also, it's kind of fun, though it probably looks stupid. It's a good thing I have no shame  Baby-talking my dog ('WHO's a good girl? What a good, pretty princess you are!') in the middle of town got me some funny looks but hey.Kiri Koli posted:A kong is a good idea, but I would caution against using it too soon. In my experience, when doggie is faced with both something upsetting and an irresistible treat, doggie will eat frantically, trying to finish quickly and keep the threat in sights at the same time. Kongs and other long lasting treats are exciting but they should also be calming. You want Lola to relax and enjoy her kong, so only give it when she's in a good frame of mind. If she's too stressed, then I find popping treats in her mouth works better for warding off a bad reaction. Definitely hold the Kong and don't be afraid to pull it away and only give it back if Lola is eating it calmly, with most of her attention on the kong and a relaxed posture.  I didn't read this before my kids-coming-out-of-school thing. To begin with, Lola was happy eating the mix of cheese/liver/ham, until the kids started pouring out. I'd brought out a kong with me with doggy crack (basically) in, and I offered her that and she settled right down with it. She was licking at it with the same force as she usually does, but her ears were set back in her relaxed state (not pulled back anxiously, if you get me), and she even didn't mind when a woman with a dog stopped to talk to me for a moment - she looked up, calmly registered the woman, and then went right back to licking the kong without giving whale eye to her or anything.Rundown of today: - 10:30-11:10am (I had a ten minute break in between two ~fifteen min sessions to play ball with her): went up town. She barked twice--once when we first started off, as the kids at the school across the road were out and we'd had to cross to that side of the road to avoid a group of five or six teenage boys, and a boy in the school ran past right next to the gate and startled her. The second time was at a dog I had no choice but to let her say hello to, as I'd turned around and it was literally about an inch away. Lola was fine with the dog sniffing, until it tried to follow us, then air-snapped and barked. - 3:25-3:50pm: barked once at a dog across the road that was leaning toward us and staring on its lead. Anxiously watched a couple of kids until the kong came out, and then settled happily down to eat it. - 7:00-8:00pm: took her to the park rather than town, as she'd slept solidly from returning from town this morning til about 3. She did really well to begin with, recalling immediately from a pair of dogs that were charging around and ran past her about a metre away... until an idiot let his two huskies come racing across the park (well, he called them but, yeah, nothing going there). Lola freaked out, air-snapped at the one that reached us first, but immediately left them when I cued her to. We speedwalked away, and then about ten minutes later, the huskies came charging over again. I spotted them and walked away, and they caught up. Lola barked at one, I told her to leave again, and we sped on away from them until they got bored. URGH. If it had been just one dog, or two small dogs, I'd have picked her up, but I didn't particularly want two big dogs I've never seen before getting up close and personal with me with Lola in my arms.
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Jul 11, 2011 20:47
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Can I hear some suggestions on a training plan for introducing a head collar? I've worked with him over about a week, putting the neck strap only on before and after walks, petting, and then occasionally putting the loose nose band and collar clip on with lots of treats. The second I pause to get more treats he frantically tries to pull of the halter. I'm frustrated (even though I know this should take some time) and I need a plan to work off of. Bailey is so stubborn and it drives me up a wall sometimes.
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Jul 11, 2011 21:07
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Fraction posted:It's a good thing I have no shame Oh, I'm with you with the baby talking. I feel justified because when I really get going and Psyche is trying really hard to focus on me and not be upset, she gets this big ol' derpy look at on her face, so I'm not the only one looking stupid. It sounds like the kong is great for Lola. Just keep an eye out for her getting stressed, but it sounds like it should be fine. You could even dress up her meals with peanut butter/cheese in the kong and feed her that way. It'll be more yummy than just handing her a piece of kibble, which may not serve in a stressful situation. It sounds like your day went pretty well, it's great than Lola is easily called off of most things. I assume that her barking is more anxious than you'd like and not just excited barking. After living with a really barky dog, I'm not sure eliminating barking is a worthwhile goal. I'd be perfectly happy with a dog who gives an excited (but not anxious) bark at stimulating things and then calls off and returns to focusing or playing. Some dogs are just vocal, I think. I know I wouldn't do well if people told me to shut up all the time.
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Jul 11, 2011 21:12
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wtftastic posted:Can I hear some suggestions on a training plan for introducing a head collar? I've worked with him over about a week, putting the neck strap only on before and after walks, petting, and then occasionally putting the loose nose band and collar clip on with lots of treats. The second I pause to get more treats he frantically tries to pull of the halter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wakterNyUg The comments are pretty  but, well, that's youtube for ya. http://youtu.be/1FABgZTFvHo That one's for a muzzle, but the same principle applies. If you ever find yourself at your wit's end, try another brand. I have a friend who's dog is okay in a Halti and hates the Gentle Leader.
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Jul 11, 2011 21:13
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wtftastic posted:Can I hear some suggestions on a training plan for introducing a head collar? I've worked with him over about a week, putting the neck strap only on before and after walks, petting, and then occasionally putting the loose nose band and collar clip on with lots of treats. The second I pause to get more treats he frantically tries to pull of the halter. Just wait him out. We still use a gentle leader occasionally. It took probably 3 weeks for ours to really start to get used to it. Just make sure you don't jerk the leash and make sure it's fitted tight right behind the ears. You should just barely be able to get a finger in there (unless you have fat fingers). When you use it, make sure you treat liberally for good behavior during walks and you can eventually turn it into a fun thing. In our case, it was associated with going for walks, so it became a positive thing even though she'd just as soon not have it on, if it was up to her.
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Jul 11, 2011 21:14
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Fraction, check out this PDF about Behavioural Adjustment Training (BAT). It talks about marking social/appeasement behaviours then rewarding with increasing the distance between the dog and the stimulus. http://ahimsadogtraining.com/handouts/BAT-basics.pdf It's the Next Big Thing when it comes to dealing with reactivity.
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Jul 11, 2011 21:15
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a life less posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wakterNyUg That looks like a great idea. I think I'll ramp up to some high value treats rather than just kibble and I'll give him a week to get rid of any lingering "OH GOD NO" feelings. Thanks.
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Jul 11, 2011 21:28
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Kiri koli posted:Oh, I'm with you with the baby talking. I feel justified because when I really get going and Psyche is trying really hard to focus on me and not be upset, she gets this big ol' derpy look at on her face, so I'm not the only one looking stupid. Lola's tail was wagging so hard when I started babytalking to her, I swear it nearly snapped off. I have an issue where I sometimes get really quiet when I'm trying to concentrate on marking and rewarding the good stuff... but Lola likes me to speak to her (there's a noticeable difference when we're training something new if I just silently mark/reward than if I'm happy and full of praise when she gets stuff right). Tomorrow I'll definitely try putting some kibble in the kong too, to give her something to crunch through rather than just licking it all. I read somewhere that licking/chewing things is naturally relaxing to dogs, is that right? I'm hoping that by bringing her out with the Best Stuff around one of her worst triggers--namely children, particularly loud children who may or may not like to bark at my dog or run right past as they have done previously--that she'll associate the relaxed state of having a kong to being in the vicinity of kids. The barking is kind of a 'get the gently caress out of my face' bark, I guess? With other dogs, especially. She used to be great with other dogs, and would only bark if they ran away from her, so I *do* think there's some element of frustration in it as well as whatever genetic stuff is telling her 'woah, not a lot of dogs are cool'. She naturally likes to alert me to things (like the neighbours running upstairs, or someone knocking at their door, or at our door, or if she hears some noise only she can hear)--she'll run up and gurgle and 'huff' softly whilst staring at me--and she's also a naturally barky breed so I'm definitely not trying to eliminate all barking! She even barks on cue But her vocalisations tend to wind her up more, so I have to interrupt them and get her to refocus.I sometimes feel like I'm lying or something when I say she's reactive. She's nipped me twice, nipped one or two dogs, but that's it. It's mostly 'LOOK HOW BIG AND LOUD AND SCARY I AM' barks and raised hackles, but that's usually with other dogs. With people, she really does prefer to avoid them. She's never really been a snarling, lunging mass at the end of the leash - and 95% of the time it's really easy to break her attention and get her to refocus on me. a life less posted:Fraction, check out this PDF about Behavioural Adjustment Training (BAT). It talks about marking social/appeasement behaviours then rewarding with increasing the distance between the dog and the stimulus. You know, I've watched youtube videos of this in progress before... and I don't get it. I understand LAT, understand Premack Principle, and some other stuff, but uh BAT just completely sails over my head. That PDF helps a little, but I'm not sure if I understand still - you're rewarding the good choice of not reacting to a trigger by increasing the distance from it, right?
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Jul 11, 2011 21:37
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Fraction posted:You know, I've watched youtube videos of this in progress before... and I don't get it. I understand LAT, understand Premack Principle, and some other stuff, but uh BAT just completely sails over my head. That PDF helps a little, but I'm not sure if I understand still - you're rewarding the good choice of not reacting to a trigger by increasing the distance from it, right? It took me a while to "get it" too. If you look at a problem like reactivity, the problem arises because the subject dog is nervous and wants the other dog to GTFO. Where BAT differs from CC is that when CC is using food to create warm fuzzy feelings for the stimulus, BAT is using what the dog wanted to begin with: more space. I see it as training your dog to use socially acceptable behaviours to diffuse tension (like a paw lift, head turn, yawn), and then you can use the environment to reward them. I think BAT is useful because it teaches dogs both how to offer calming signals and that the dog can control their environment through offering those desired behaviors. Not to mention it sets the dog up with some history in coping with stressful situations that can be applied to future experiences. I like the write up my internet pal did here: http://successjustclicks.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/going-batty/ Consider it just another tactic to have in your training arsenal. It blends nicely with a lot of other methods. a life less fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jul 11, 2011 |
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Jul 11, 2011 21:55
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Fraction posted:snip Man, Lola sounds a lot like a less extreme Psyche. Psyche also has problems with people/dogs leaving, my trainer identified it as reacting to people disengaging with her. We even tested it out with having people pretend to leave and Psyche would not react if they were still had her on their mind, but would freak out if their attention was diverted to something else entirely. It was pretty crazy when we figured that out. Psyche also does the watchdog thing and will break off barking if I come to see what she's barking at (usually nothing I can see though!). Don't feel bad for calling Lola reactive. She is reactive, i.e. she has a negative reaction to non-threatening stimuli (though obviously she thinks its threatening!). Remember that reactive != aggressive. If I saw a dog that hid behind their owner everytime a person/dog walked by, I would call that dog reactive too. Psyche is a mix of reactive and aggressive. I've seen her react without real aggression (lunging, jumping, and barking, but without the aggressive body language) and I've seen her jump straight to aggression if startled badly enough. Lola sounds like she's reactive edging toward aggressive with dogs and avoidance with people. If you weren't working so hard to help her out, she could very well become a snarling, lunging dog. But that won't happen because you've admitted she has a problem. About the BAT stuff: it's funny because I asked my trainer about one we talked about a while back (CAT, I think?) and she said all these "new" techniques are just trendy redressings of the same old principles. I dunno about that, given how recent (and still prevalent!) the traditional methods were used...
Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jul 11, 2011 |
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Jul 11, 2011 22:36
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a life less posted:I like the write up my internet pal did here: http://successjustclicks.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/going-batty/ That said, I'd try this on my boys if I had the opportunity to work with someone knowledgeable, even if this technique is -R based (I have trainer friends who have major issues with this).
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Jul 11, 2011 23:03
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a life less posted:Consider it just another tactic to have in your training arsenal. It blends nicely with a lot of other methods. Okay, that does make a lot more sense now! I think that would be something that would work well with Lola and people, since she wants to avoid people. It seems like it'd be pretty easy to set up a BAT session too - I could just find a reasonably busy street, or go to where people like to sit around a lot in town, and practice that. Would I use the same marker as for when she does other things (e.g. 'yes' or use of clicker), or use a specific marker that means 'good job, now you can have more space!' I'd worry about, if using the same marker, confusing her so that sometimes she gets food, sometimes she 'only' gets to move away. I'll have to try it sometime though, definitely! Kiri koli posted:Man, Lola sounds a lot like a less extreme Psyche. Psyche also has problems with people/dogs leaving, my trainer identified it as reacting to people disengaging with her. We even tested it out with having people pretend to leave and Psyche would not react if they were still had her on their mind, but would freak out if their attention was diverted to something else entirely. It was pretty crazy when we figured that out. They do sound quite similar! I bet Psyche is better than one of Lola's brothers, who reacts to literally everything (people, dogs, leaves, whatever - if it can be barked at, his hackles will be up and he'll be barking). I've previously looked at Rocky and just thought, well, thank god she isn't quite that bad! Lola always had a problem with people leaving and then re-entering. At our first (godawful) training class, she was generally nonreactive to people unless they left the room then re-entered. With dogs, she just changes her mind--I don't know if it's me being tense on the lead (I have another DA dog, so my natural instinct is to tense up around other dogs which really doesn't help!), if the lead moving away annoys her, if the other dog's continued presence annoys her, or what. She's a strange dog. Kiri Koli posted:Don't feel bad for calling Lola reactive. She is reactive, i.e. she has a negative reaction to non-threatening stimuli (though obviously she thinks its threatening!). Remember that reactive != aggressive. If I saw a dog that hid behind their owner everytime a person/dog walked by, I would call that dog reactive too. That makes sense. I often think of really excited I WANT TO GREET EVERYONE dogs as reactive to - the dogs that are straining at their leashes, whining, etc. I try not to label her as aggressive, because the vast majority of her behaviours are just showy 'please get away' problems. It doesn't help that she was shy with people from Day 1, and I didn't want to push her too hard and thus under-socialised her with people. Kiri Koli posted:Psyche is a mix of reactive and aggressive. I've seen her react without real aggression (lunging, jumping, and barking, but without the aggressive body language) and I've seen her jump straight to aggression if startled badly enough. Lola sounds like she's reactive edging toward aggressive with dogs and avoidance with people. If you weren't working so hard to help her out, she could very well become a snarling, lunging dog. But that won't happen because you've admitted she has a problem. Lola's done both of those before, too. Usually the straight-to-aggression things are if she's badly startled by a dog whilst playing fetch (especially if neither of us saw the dog coming), or if say we turn a corner whilst walking and someone is stood there already. It took me a while to admit that she has a problem, because my thought process was that surely I'm a good dog owner and how did I manage to gently caress up so bad? But I've come to terms with things I've caused (or triggered, really) versus things I haven't caused. I still get annoyed when things happen like my mother saying Lola needs to behave better with people, or a friend saying my pup was 'violent' (because she barked at friend's brother when he suddenly appeared in friend's house - there had been just me/Lola/friend/friend's dog, and then he quietly came into the room we were in and badly startled her). At least with Jess I can just say, yeah, she's a dick with dogs but at least she loves people! Lola just loves me  Oh and to any of you awesome people - today whilst we were out, Lola occasionally moved forward to sniff at the shoes of a passerby. She didn't have hackles up or ears pinned back or anything, so I c/t that but should I have ignored it? My reasoning was that if she's wanting to interact non-aggressively with someone, then hell yeah click that, but since then I've been doubtful so  PS sorry for monopolising the thread!
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Jul 11, 2011 23:14
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Fraction posted:
I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I did wrong too and after all this time and getting very well acquainted with Psyche's issues I've come to accept that was it partial our fault, though it was unintentional. Her BYB and her first owners set her up to fail big time, doing nearly everything wrong that you can including emotional and possibly physical abuse, but Psyche only got as bad as she did when we introduced her to our apartment environment. Moving has made me realize that that was a HUGE component of her anxiety and basically amplified all of her previous issues and lowered her threshold. Now, there's no way to know for sure if moving to a calmer environment would had a different outcome (especially if she had been adopted by more people who believed in punishment and not training, which is unfortunately a lot of people), but it definitely wouldn't have hurt and might have made all the difference. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. As for sniffing the shoes of people walking by...I personally wouldn't allow it. When working with an easily startled dog, I definitely want to be in control of the interaction, which means setting it up, making sure of calm behavior first, and then being on alert during the interaction. The odds that a random stranger will move suddenly is pretty high and can result in a startled nip or even just a jump or bark, which a random stranger may not appreciate or understand. This is one of the things we work on with Psyche ourselves (she gets over-excited when we jump around) and with our friends...from a safe distance, I have them make sudden moves, jump, run, etc. Even when we work on direct interactions in class though, we don't allow sniffing (or jumping or whatever). Sniffing other people is not really a good habit for dogs anyway because you don't know if a stranger likes dogs or wants to be sniffed. If Lola gets close and does a little sniff, certainly reward but then immediately lead her away and reward that. And then try to avoid it by keeping Lola walking with you or recalling her to you. I dunno, maybe I'm just paranoid, but I won't feel comfortable with interacting with strangers until long after Psyche has stopped displaying reactivity to strangers in the distance. Work on Lola tolerating/liking strangers from a distance for now and then if you want to work on socialization with strangers, try and find a good class or a dog group where people like dogs and know what to do with them. Rixatrix: My trainer doesn't hold by CAT either. She said the basic principles were old news, but the part about having long sessions and it being such a punishing/stressful encounter made her not like the idea. I too would like to try it with someone who knew what they're doing, but then I also have dreams of Sophia Yin swooping down on my house and providing some sort of miracle cure... = wishful thinking.
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Jul 12, 2011 00:06
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My Bichon gets really excited whenever someone comes over or when I get home from work and when we pet him, he will pee on the floor a little bit. He's nearly 5 years old now, so no longer a puppy (he's done it the whole time too, originally I was told he would out-grow it). This also happens regardless of when he was last taken outside. What can I do to help him calm down/control himself whenever people come over/home?
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Jul 12, 2011 01:45
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Kiri koli posted:As for sniffing the shoes of people walking by...I personally wouldn't allow it. When working with an easily startled dog, I definitely want to be in control of the interaction, which means setting it up, making sure of calm behavior first, and then being on alert during the interaction. The odds that a random stranger will move suddenly is pretty high and can result in a startled nip or even just a jump or bark, which a random stranger may not appreciate or understand. This is one of the things we work on with Psyche ourselves (she gets over-excited when we jump around) and with our friends...from a safe distance, I have them make sudden moves, jump, run, etc. Even when we work on direct interactions in class though, we don't allow sniffing (or jumping or whatever). Sniffing other people is not really a good habit for dogs anyway because you don't know if a stranger likes dogs or wants to be sniffed. That all makes sense - she is pretty easily startled, and I don't want her snapping because the person trips on their shoelace or something. What I was doing was calling her immediately to me after and praising, but maybe I'll just give a quiet 'good girl' and click when she orients back to me instead? I feel like I have to give some sort of reward when she interacts calmly with people of her own will, but I guess I don't want her to start pulling me across the street to sniff people. I think her focus on me will be even better today, as I saw a definite improvement just in yesterday's session. DanManIt posted:What can I do to help him calm down/control himself whenever people come over/home? How are you (and other people) greeting him? Regardless of whether it's excitement peeing or 'submissive' peeing, the first step is to tone everything down. Neither you nor your guests greet him until he is calm - it could be ten seconds, could be ten minutes. No looking at him, no talking to him, no touching him. As soon as you get home or someone arrives, quietly let him out to your yard to relieve himself. Keep everything low key. When you do give him attention, keep it calm--soft voices, averted eyes, relaxed postures, gentle stroking rather than vigorous pets. Fraction fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Jul 12, 2011 |
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Jul 12, 2011 09:33
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Rixatrix posted:Finding rock solid helper dogs with skilled handlers is yet another challenge. I was at a dogsport event a few weeks ago, and one of the girls there was doing some BAT exercises with her dog with Cohen as the "helper dog". We were all just milling about and she was doing the exercises very casually. Cohen is far from the ideal helper dog for things like CAT -- her nerves are relatively poor. But the drills this girl was running were so non-invasive that it placed no stress on Cohen, and unless you were familiar with BAT as a handler it was hard to even see the drills as a training session -- no one was asked to do anything special. All in all I was pretty impressed by how low-key the whole thing was. The dog was mildly nervous, but even that was hard to pick up on. Admittedly I haven't employed BAT with Cohen. We pretty much just do traditional CC/OC stuff when we're out and about. So basically I guess I just wanted to try and point out that finding skilled helper dogs and handlers isn't a necessity -- you can find things to work with in your environment. It's true that it's R- and I can understand some people's hesitancy with it, but in my experience it's so low-impact on the animal that it's still a very appealing method. Fraction posted:Okay, that does make a lot more sense now! I think that would be something that would work well with Lola and people, since she wants to avoid people. It seems like it'd be pretty easy to set up a BAT session too - I could just find a reasonably busy street, or go to where people like to sit around a lot in town, and practice that. Would I use the same marker as for when she does other things (e.g. 'yes' or use of clicker), or use a specific marker that means 'good job, now you can have more space!' I'd worry about, if using the same marker, confusing her so that sometimes she gets food, sometimes she 'only' gets to move away. I'll have to try it sometime though, definitely! In my opinion a marker is a marker is a marker. I wouldn't worry about using one specifically for food, and another specifically for environmental rewards. I think a clicker is the perfect tool for BAT since the body language can be so subtle and fleeting -- precision is key. I think dogs are intelligent enough to understand situational markers. This is just my opinion though -- not sure where science stands on the matter. I use a click, "yes" and "good" all interchangeably depending on what's most convenient, not depending on what type of reward I plan to offer. /shrug DanManIt posted:My Bichon gets really excited whenever someone comes over or when I get home from work and when we pet him, he will pee on the floor a little bit. He's nearly 5 years old now, so no longer a puppy (he's done it the whole time too, originally I was told he would out-grow it). This also happens regardless of when he was last taken outside. Basically make you arriving home really boring. Ignore the dog completely. Talk in soothing low quiet voices. Only acknowledge the dog when he's gotten over the excitement of you coming home -- this can take 10 minutes or more. And when you do, again, calm voices, slow movements. If he gets riled up again, switch back to ignore-mode. Having a dog excited for our return is an awesome way to be greeted when we get home after a long day of work, but it's that excitement that's causing the pee. It may be a bummer, but you've got to train it away. Eventually as he gets used to holding his pee a bit better you can start acting more naturally, but that'll likely take months of low-key ignore-the-dog arrivals.
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Jul 12, 2011 14:53
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a life less, I think we were thinking of slightly different things then. If you can even take a dog to a dog sport event, it's not a reactive dog to the extent where I have seen CAT/BAT suggested and used.
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Jul 12, 2011 17:00
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a life less posted:In my opinion a marker is a marker is a marker. I wouldn't worry about using one specifically for food, and another specifically for environmental rewards. I think a clicker is the perfect tool for BAT since the body language can be so subtle and fleeting -- precision is key. That makes sense! I guess I was just a little worried that she'd get confused if, when we approached a person and I marked a correct behaviour, she sometimes got a treat and we continued toward/past the person, and sometimes we walked away from them. I think Lola did good today. She barked twice (once at a guy that tried to pet her immediately after rounding a corner about a metre away - he startled both of us; and then once at a dog that, again, appeared around a corner), had hackles up and was about to bark at a dog that was flipping out behind a fence (I cued her to down, and I don't even know why because I'd have usually cued her to leave it, and she immediately laid down and watched me to see what our next move was), and reacted to a Rottweiler that rushed across the park to see us (I picked her up to avoid her potentially provoking a reaction in the other dog; it's one thing to bark at a yorkshire terrier, another thing to bark at a dog several times her size) by just wriggling in my arms. If she'd been on the floor she'd have reacted, but she kept her mouth shut and didn't bark or snap, which I like to think of as progress. An old woman, whilst we were sat on a bench in town, came over and tried to stroke her. I managed to interrupt her just as she'd outstretched her hand, and explained to her that Lola was scared of people (I generally find this works better than saying 'she doesn't like people', as people who like dogs seem to enjoy saying 'oh, she'll like me!'). She was very understanding, and apologised for trying to stroke my pup, which was nice. Lola was anxiously moving away from the woman, but she didn't bark or snap--definite avoidance rather than outright aggression (still stress, but I prefer avoidance displays to aggressive displays)--and she quickly recovered when the woman had carried on. When we were sat on the wall whilst kids came out for the end of school, she was a little anxious at times, and was definitely startled a couple of times (generally by car doors slamming or buses screeching past, only three times by people, and two of those were for children that ran past), but she didn't make a peep. She was on my lap licking a kong, and at one point she had her front paws tucked under herself whilst lying down licking the kong, with her side facing the people going past. Both when we were in town (on the bench) and when we were on the wall, she offered some behaviours - lying down and the trick we were working on most recently, to put her head on her paws. Down is her go-to behaviour, since I like it as a default, and I'm guessing she was doing 'duck' because it's the freshest thing in her mind from getting through it a few weeks ago? It's one of her only free-shaped tricks, too I also came to the realisation today that I should stop treating sudden appearances like anything else. That's probably her biggest trigger - so when people suddenly appear, I need to be clicking whilst she's looking at them, and stuff her face full of food. Right now, a sudden appearance has only a 65% or so chance for her to check in with me - the other times she'll react (whilst for the average person, who might tick one or two of her triggers, she'll look at me north of 90% of the time now).
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Jul 12, 2011 19:51
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I'm having trouble teaching my 8 month old pug puppy to stop barking randomly. We don't pay any attention to him when he barks and usually wait 5-10 seconds until after he stops barking to give him attention. Sometimes when we come home, he'll be all quiet in the crate until we let him out. Then, he runs around like a crazy maniac barking for a minute or two after that. Suggestions?
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Jul 13, 2011 07:39
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quimbee posted:I'm having trouble teaching my 8 month old pug puppy to stop barking randomly. We don't pay any attention to him when he barks and usually wait 5-10 seconds until after he stops barking to give him attention. Have you tried: whe barks, just calmly and quietly putting him into a dog-proofed room on his own? He is then let out after 5 seconds of silence. When he comes running out of the crate, it's probably because he's just really excited and wants to play. Have you tried initiating play before he barks, with a tug toy or a ball or something? Or you could try putting him in a down-stay once released from the crate, then reward that with a quick walk around the block or something. Okay, I tried to do BAT today, though I'm not sure if it worked. There was a man stood with his dog at the end of the street I was walking up. I waited until Lola looked at the dog, then verbally marked ('yes!') and said 'let's go'. We walked away from the dog about 7-8 paces, and then I treated Lola when we stopped once every two-three times. We then turned around and tried again. It seemed to work pretty well, until the other dog jumped away from a man in a police helmet, then turned and lunged and barked at Lola. Lola barked back, and I had to remove her and put her in a down-stay for a few seconds to calm down. Once she was calm again, we tried another couple of times, and got about 5m from the (big, hairy) dog. I then rewarded her by running back down the street, away from the dog. So the procedure was: - Walk towards dog - Wait for Lola to look at it (she kept wanting to just stare at me because of LAT and LLW work) - Wait for Lola to look away from the dog (at me, at the ground, or whatever), or relax her posture (I once marked and walked her away when her upright ears settled back slightly into her more normal position) - Mark and reward with a walk away; occasionally give her some food (kibble/ham/cheese/liver) at the end of the walk away to increase the value of the movement - Continue Is that correct though? It did seem to work, in that Lola seemed less anxious about the dog even after it had barked at her (she recovered faster, and didn't lift her hackles or tighten the leash after being put in the down-stay) but I'm not sure. The guy was certainly bemused about what I was doing, but he didn't seem bothered at all. In good news, barking at that dog was the *only* time she barked today  She raised her hackles at a woman limping up a hill towards us, but we very very rarely see anyone who walks differently (abnormally from Lola's perspective). She self-interrupted her staring and raised hackles to look at me, so I jackpotted and ran with her onto a street leading off the one we were on.
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Jul 13, 2011 17:19
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